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Meet Botswana’s Carrie Prejean


Except unlike Miss California Carrie Prejean, who came in second for the Miss USA Crown, Sumaiyah Marope’s stance on gay folks won her the Miss Botswana title. When asked her position on same-sex relationships, she called them an “unnatural act,” adding, God made us men and women [… ] It is only proper for men to have relationships with women as God created us.” The crowd applauded. Which shouldn’t surprise you.

In Botswana, gay couples cannot get married. GLBTs are not protected against discrimination. And having sex? It’s a crime. Right there in Chapter 08:01 of Penal Code 13 (link, PDF) you’ll learn what happens if you violate “the order of nature”:

Section 164. Unnatural offences

“Any person who;
(a) has carnal knowledge of any person against the order of nature;
(b) has carnal knowledge of any animal; or
(c) permits any other person to have carnal knowledge of him or her against the order of nature,
is guilty of an offences and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years.”

Section 165. Attempts to commit unnatural offences

“Any person who attempts to commit any of the offences specified in section 164 is guilty of an
offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.”

Section 167. Indecent practices between persons

“Any person who, whether in public or private, commits any act of gross indecency with another
person, or procures another person to commit any act of gross indecency with him or her, or
attempts to procure the commission of any such act by any person with himself or herself or with
another person, whether in public or private, is guilty of an offence.”

On:           May 8, 2009
Tagged: , , , ,
    • Lex

      This is the second time today I’ve seen this Carrie Prejean topic deflected onto black people. First Obama and now this girl in a different country.

      Are you kidding?

      How does this effect you? Are you speaking on behalf of black gays everywhere?

      At least Obama is President so I stayed tight lipped on that since that can effect us all, but this? Give me a break.

      May 8, 2009 at 4:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tony

      Wow. It is nice to know we are hated around the globe. Sad.

      May 8, 2009 at 4:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ms. Southern Belle

      @Lex: I did not read any of your rants in the article. I think they were right in calling Ms. Spearchucker out on how her bigoted stance won her the title.

      Be greatful you are here and not there but always remember South African airways does fly there directly from NYC.

      May 8, 2009 at 4:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      Right and you’ve proven your point by spouting a racial slur?

      So you’re better than her while acting just like her. Yeah right.

      She hates gays. You hate blacks.

      I happen to be both black and gay and I think you both need to grow up.

      May 8, 2009 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John Santos

      When we read the linked story we learn this:

      “Marope went on to win the competition, and was awarded a US $700 bracelet from rapper Russell Simmons, a brand new Mercedes Benz, and an academic scholarship.”

      Maybe it’s time to boycott DJ Fresh And Mr. Simmons.

      May 8, 2009 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev

      @Ms. Southern Belle:

      I believe you are a some sort of right wing plant.@John Santos:
      John, Simmons has also congratulated David Paterson in supporting marriage equality in NY. Slow your roll!

      May 8, 2009 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John Santos

      @John Santos:

      According to Joe. My. God., Andy Towle noted that Simmons wrote a Huffington piece supporting equal marriage. So which came first, the pageant, or the Huffington article?


      May 8, 2009 at 5:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael W.

      Russell Simmons probably put the bracelet up as a prize before the show even began. He had no idea who’d win and he certainly didn’t know the winner or any other contestant would make such a statement.

      It’s stupid for us to get out the pitchforks when we don’t know the facts.

      May 8, 2009 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Gurlene

      @Chitown Kev: Whad up Kev. I got back to you late yesterday. I hope you checked it out. I am dying to see what you thought.

      As for this woman I had a few choice thoughts but as the saying goes pay attention to ignorance and the next thing you know it will matter. This is about as far as her “publicity” tour should go as far as I am concerned.

      May 8, 2009 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      To be truthful about, while her answer was a bigoted as Miss California’s, it was much more articulate than the shit Miss California tried to make up off of the top of her head.

      Yeah I saw that, Gurlene, but I don’t know how much longer I am willing to hang out at this site…

      May 8, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq

      @Lex: I agree, another black face and more hate and venom spewed like it is each and every day. She speaks for herself, just like Prejean does, too bad that’s never noted with a black person who spews nonsense.

      May 8, 2009 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno

      @John Santos:

      Simmons’ open letter came well before this pageant: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russell-simmons/dear-governor-paterson-an_b_188307.html

      May 8, 2009 at 5:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Trey

      @Chitown Kev: i gotta agree with you about hanging around this site…i don’t know how much more racist language I can take.

      May 8, 2009 at 7:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Graham

      Get the No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency on the case! Mma. Makutsi would not put up with this injustice!

      May 8, 2009 at 7:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • alan brickman

      i’m sure rusell simmons will have something to say about this…man does perez have balls!

      May 8, 2009 at 7:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CitizenGeek

      It’s no secret that Africa is the most homophobic place in the world. I see no reason why Queerty should sugar-coat that fact just because it’s an unpleasant truth for black gays.

      May 8, 2009 at 7:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @CitizenGeek: Wow. After posting something that ignorant you can’t understand why black gays want nothing to do with racists like you?

      What polls are you running around the globe to find out what skin tone has the most homophobic people and what difference would it make?

      Posting an ignorant and untrue stereotype all the while using a term like homophobic to victimize yourself is stupid at best. You don’t know a damned thing about Africa. You probably don’t know a thing about any place outside of the US. If you did you’d know homophobia is a world-wide issue and a problem for everyone of any color.

      If you weren’t a racist idiot you’d know that nothing will be solved by bashing blacks. You’re a part of the problem, not the solution.

      May 8, 2009 at 8:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq

      @CitizenGeek: No one should ever ‘sugar coat’ homophobia, no matter where it is, but, oddly, racism is tolerated on this site, does that mean all white gays are racists, or just about 7 of 10 who post here? And, why in the world is this story on this site? Its not as if anyone here cares about what goes on in Africa or the mistreatment that gay black Africans suffer, and this USA isn’t the best place for gays either, homophobia is rampant in all communities just like the racism displayed here daily, keep it real .

      May 8, 2009 at 8:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • synnerman

      *Yawn* Call me when someone from an African country isn’t spouting religious homophobic bullshit.

      They hide behind religious batshittery just like American Theocons to hide their own corruption.

      May 8, 2009 at 8:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @Dabq: Thank you!

      It’s just another excuse to post racist garbage against black people.

      They don’t care about the plight of gay Africans in Africa. If they did they wouldn’t be referring to them as “spearchuckers”. Black people are just being used by white gay men to get what they want and then we’ll be tossed aside like a used tissue.

      It’s so transparent it would never work anyway. They can’t even get gay black support let alone straight black, especially while hurling racial slurs. I’m not sure what they think they’ll accomplish beyond further alienating themselves from the rest of the population.

      One thing is true so far people regardless of color have been able to come together in favor of homophobia, the more moronic racist gay men to come forward and spew hate will just add to their numbers.

      May 8, 2009 at 8:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ian

      How many of you are actually trying to reach out to people of color? It would be nice if instead of complaining about africans, we’d try to make them more tolerant by putting a human face to the issue.

      I found a website that deals with undocumented immigrants AND at the same time tries to diminish homophobia in the immigrant community. This is the type of efforts that should be directed towards the black community as well instead of scapegoating them. Here’s the link. I’ve become involved with them and I highly encourage everyone else to do so as well:


      May 8, 2009 at 8:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      That’s what many of their gay fathers and mothers and gay grandfathers and grandmothers did. Of course many of them died of AIDS so…

      It’s a history that needs to be told and…yes, African Americans should be reminded of it.

      May 8, 2009 at 8:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Yurpdod

      Interesting enough, Botswana has one of the highest AIDS rates of any country in the world.

      May 9, 2009 at 1:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • geoff

      This is one person’s view, and while it is horrible…. seriously,”spearchucker”? Not cool or acceptable or funny in the least. Bigotry is not the way to fight bigotry.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mark

      Black Africans are amongst the most homophobic people on Earth. Shame on them. And shame on Ms Botswana for her bigoted comments. If she adheres to the Bible, why is she parading like a sex object in front of married men? The Bible says “thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife”. Stop parading in front of married men, Ms Botswana.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason

      I agree that we shouldn’t use this as an excuse to be racist. Racism is repulsive, period. But it would be nice if those opposed to racism took some time off to speak to their brothers in the hood about the ugliness of homophobia instead of berating us here.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Queerky

      It is shocking when a progressive country such as Bostawana, which is a role-model to the entire world, acts in this aberrant manner. This is a country known for its literacy rates, more PhDs per square mile than other country. Their children are the healthiest, outliving others by months. And Bostwana women are treated with a respect and dignity that is the envy of the world. Strange then that gays in Bostawana have a horrible life?

      May 9, 2009 at 7:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz

      and seemingly, gays are among the quickest to stereotype on earth. not cool.

      Africa has many nations comprising an enormous variety of peoples. and lest you forget, individuals. please recognize that people from all over the world are coming to this site and expecting a safe space. don’t lay blame over a billion individuals you don’t know just because of their continent and skin color.

      May 9, 2009 at 8:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Phoenix (Ahoy! ButtPirates Of the Carribean!)

      I wonder if Miss Marope will feel the same when she marries a closeted gay man who infects her with HIV because he’s on the down-low and engaging in risky sex with other closeted, married gay men? You know, like the African American ladies in our country.


      May 9, 2009 at 9:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Phoenix (Ahoy! Butt-Pirates Of the Carribean!)

      Sorry if this is a double post. For some reason my comments don’t seem to be posting.

      Sumaiyah Marope’s stance on gay folks is quite foolish. I wonder if she’d feel the same way if/when she wound up marrying a closeted gay man who infects her with HIV because he’s on the down-low and engaging in risky, unsafe sex with other closeted gay men. Isn’t that why the HIV infection rate is so high with African-American women? Because many, many gay African-American men are closeted (not counting the higher prison rates and intravenous drug use)?


      May 9, 2009 at 9:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz

      @Phoenix (Ahoy! Butt-Pirates Of the Carribean!):

      i don’t think it’s reasonable to draw parallels between Americans and Africans simply because they’re black. While it’s true that HIV is very prevalent in many parts of Africa, but that’s more due to extremely low condom use, HIV+ prostitutes, re-used medical equipment, governments that don’t fund preventative efforts, and the fact that HIV probably originated in equatorial Africa and began to spread before it was first noticed in the western world.

      you’re right that homophobic attitudes don’t help, though.

      May 9, 2009 at 9:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CitizenGeek

      @Dabq: I do not understand the hyper-sensitivity from African-American gays that surrounds this issue. I may not have polled every individual in Africa, but I do know that homosexuality is illegal in a vast majority of sub-Saharan African countries, and that I read news stories every other day about the awful treatment of gays by African governments and populaces. If you think stating the FACT that Europe (Western and Eastern, in this case) and the Americans as well as Asia are less homophobic and less accepting of homosexuality than Africa makes me a racist, then I reckon you have seriously misunderstood the concept of bigotry! Yes, there is homophobia everywhere there are people, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t varying degrees of toleration or acceptance.

      You’re using a logic that seems to go something like this: Spain has homophobes. Senegal has homophobes. It is therefore unfair to say that Senegal is more homophobic than Spain. This logic is absurd; Spain has full blown equality for gays and lesbians, with strong public support, while homosexuality is illegal in Senegal, and there are regular, horrific displays of homophobia in Senegal. Spanish people are less homophobic than Senegalese people. This is a fact. Stating this fact, and stating that Africa has a hell of a lot more work to do when it comes to gay acceptance somehow makes me racist? Please, grow up!

      FWIW, I do not live in the US, I live in Ireland, and I have been to South Africa (a rare example of an African nation in which gays have any rights at all) on numerous occasions.

      May 9, 2009 at 2:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CitizenGeek

      *should say “more” rather than “less” accepting on the 5th line.

      May 9, 2009 at 2:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • alicia banks

      i am sure she condones “corrective rapes” of lesbians and their children too then…


      black africans are rabid gaybashers
      even in america


      May 9, 2009 at 2:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito


      “I agree that we shouldn’t use this as an excuse to be racist. Racism is repulsive, period. But it would be nice if those opposed to racism took some time off to speak to their brothers in the hood about the ugliness of homophobia instead of berating us here.”

      Perhaps you should speak to your fellow “brothers under the hood” about the ugliness of racism, instead of spreading it here.

      May 9, 2009 at 2:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq

      @CitizenGeek: Well, I’m not African American, just one who deplores gay racism when its allegedly used to combat homophobia or any other obia or ism. Anytime there is a black face on a thread here, the slurs start, and, few ever denounce them.

      In the fight for equality in this country, USA, the gay community has to rid itself of the racist element that seems to thrive online, since, not every gay person is white and affluent as the main stream media likes to portray and, it just strikes me as weird that those who are constantly harping about their civil rights don’t have a clue as to how to respect others.

      And, I still say that the majority of posters here could care less about the homophobia in Africa, just keeping it real and all grown up.

      May 9, 2009 at 2:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito


      “And, I still say that the majority of posters here could care less about the homophobia in Africa, just keeping it real and all grown up.”

      I cosign on everything you said, but this in particular.

      May 9, 2009 at 3:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      I don’t know what the author of the article is crowing about.

      You don’t have marriage equality in most of the U.S. either.

      And correct me if I’m wrong, but can’t you still get busted for vibrators in Texas?

      Why are you slinging shit on small countries when you do the same (except that you are allegedly developed enough that you should know better).

      What is the point of this article?
      Projecting your anger onto someone else, bitching about how backwards these black people are, and doing nothing at all. Go get another fucking cappuccino and feel big about making a big difference in the world.

      May 9, 2009 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @strumpetwindsock: PREACH!

      May 9, 2009 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      Here we go again. The self flegallating Kapo trying to make botswana’s state sponsored homophobia on a par with the the u.s. Really, strumpet, you sound like a fool…because you are one. No, it’s worse there, and you should go and verify this for yourself living out LOUD in botswana. If given only two options of places you had to live, you’d be waving the american flag before you’d step foot in that primitive shithole.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      And of course anyone who dares question the homophobic state sponsored bigotry of primitive african nations is immediately labeled a racist by commander KAPO and his entourage of self hating queers who would rather be pushed into an oven than dare offend anyone of a different race, or just to be controversial.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew Triska

      @strumpetwindsock: Eh, I’d say they can still tackle issues in the U.S. while at the same time reminding us that homophobia is also a global issue. I do agree with you, though, that we shouldn’t act high-and-mighty in the U.S. when sodomy was still illegal in some places a few years ago. America’s still homophobic enough.

      I’m just tired of seeing stories about Carrie Prejean. Why give her all this attention? It’s kind of like the attention Fred Phelps gets in the media. He’s just one guy whose congregation is basically his immediate family and a few random wackos, just as Prejean is just one gal with some bigoted beliefs. We need to focus on the larger organizations and groups that are doing us far more harm than Prejean does.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito


      “And of course anyone who dares question the homophobic state sponsored bigotry of primitive african nations is immediately labeled a racist by commander KAPO and his entourage of self hating queers who would rather be pushed into an oven than dare offend anyone of a different race, or just to be controversial.”

      Thankfully we have you to rely on, for controversy, stupidity, and racism….no matter how tired your rhetoric has become.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      Oh shaddup, you bigotry defender. Thankfully we have you to tell us all that gay marriage doesn’t matter, and that gay rights are stupid, and that condemning homophobia enshrined in the legal codes of third world countries amounts to racism.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @TANK: So having different customs and culture makes them primitive?

      You’re racist because you’re ignorant. Plain and simple.

      As if you’ve even been to Botswana.

      You’re calling them primitive to take away their humanity so you’re free to hate as much as you want.

      You’ve decided everyone in Botswana is homophobic, you’re stereotyping.

      You’re not only racist, but a bad joke, and a hypocrite.

      Whine on about what you don’t have while you enjoy white privilege and keep expecting anyone to care.

      Until white privilege and racism in America is addressed don’t expect anyone of color to give a damn what you’re crying about.

      It’s equally hilarious that you’re whining about homophobia in Botswana while insulting the gay people of Botswana in your racist views. Oh but they don’t matter right, it’s just an excuse for you to let your racist views fly.

      Grow up, boy.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      Having different customs and cultures which are virulently homophobic and sexist is primitive. Enshrining bigotry into a legal code is primitive.

      May 9, 2009 at 5:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK

      and no, you don’t own the term primitive whenever you label people racist. Something can be primitive and not racist…got it?

      May 9, 2009 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK

      Until white privilege and racism in America is addressed don’t expect anyone of color to give a damn what you’re crying about.

      That tit for tat attitude is primitive, too. There are gay people of color, you know…who are victimized by white privilege. You’re aware of that, right?

      So what you’re ultimately saying is that people of color only care about people of color…just not gay ones…now that seems like a pretty racist generalization to me.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @TANK: So why aren’t you calling Americans primitive?

      Oh, yeah you just blew up your own weak ‘argument’ that’s why.

      Nice job, again.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @TANK: You really are an idiot.

      I am a gay person of color.

      I’m so done wasting my time arguing with you. The only thing that’s primitive is your racist viewpoint because you’re too ignorant to see homophobia is an issue no matter what skin color a person has.

      You don’t care about people in Botswana they’re just your excuse. If you really cared about what you’re crying about you’d be asking why white Americans are withholding our civil rights.

      Of course it’s easier for you to attack black people than your own family huh?

      May 9, 2009 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      Because america no longer has enforceable antisodomy laws on the books. I do call americans primitive with regard to dadt, and gay marriage. I don’t hesitate to call americans primitive when prop h8 is passed. I just don’t feel like I Need to qualify my remarks of any other country or religion (I don’t feel I need to blast christianity each time I blast islam because…I don’t wanna be labeled a racist by knuckle dragging troglodytes who are only capable of using the race card in debate) when I criticize say, botswana.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      I think you’re afrolito, aka, jasmyne cannick jr.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @TANK: Yeah it’s all a conspiracy. Your paranoia is very telling, as is terminology like “knuckle-dragging” and “primitive”. Racist child.

      Maybe when your balls drop you’ll grow up a bit and realize people are people and everyone has their own culture. Your childish views that any country that isn’t run like America is primitive just shows how immature and unknowing you are about the world.

      Try learning without being spoonfed cherry-picked information. You brainwashed little boy.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @Andrew Triska:

      I’m not saying there should be no articles about homophobia in other countries, but there have been way too many articles bashing other countries and non-whites in particular, in my opinion.

      I think it’s just an excuse for projecting our grievances and failures onto other people, and it accomplishes nothing.
      Also, it’s bringing out the worst racist and divisive sentiments in some of the people here.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      Although the great state of texas banned dildos and other sex toys until just last year:

      May 9, 2009 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito


      “Yeah it’s all a conspiracy. Your paranoia is very telling, as is terminology like “knuckle-dragging” and “primitive”. Racist child.”


      I bet he’s wishing this site had an edit button right now.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Accountability

      @Lex: But it is not ignorance. It is the truth. Africans and Jamaicans are disproportionately more homophobic than many other places. Maybe not all. We already know there are homophobic people everywhere, but those places more so.

      Then I feel if people point out the truth you and other black readers jump on them with the racist accusations and this whole victim act. You throw that word around so freely, like you own it and are the only one entitled to bestow it.

      It comes down to accountability. LET PEOPLE BE ACCOUNTABLE – NO MATTER WHAT THEIR COLOR. If there are high levels of discrimination of gays there – FIRST IT HAS TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED.

      Honestly, I feel like you and Chitown Kev and other commenters are really more racist and insulting, and have this preconceived idea that only white people can be racist and not the other way around. I really do.

      I am not going to tiptoe around one homophobic person more than another because of their color.

      And if an outlook or custom is primative, it is primative and needs to be changed. If you have a problem with that word – which is totally acceptable – that is your issue. You are not the authority on dictating what vocabulary is acceptable or not.

      If you want to see brainwashed and narrow viewpoints, look at yourself.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito


      “But it is not ignorance. It is the truth. Africans and Jamaicans are disproportionately more homophobic than many other places. Maybe not all. We already know there are homophobic people everywhere, but those places more so.”

      How could you possibly prove that??

      May 9, 2009 at 6:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @Accountability: Oh so you haven’t noticed even the racist comments all throughout the comments on articles about blacks that don’t appear on articles about whites?

      You’re an idiot. Stop trying to victimize yourself.

      You’re either racist or blind. Take your pick.

      May 9, 2009 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      I am going to ignore this for the most part because this never fails.

      People like you think I am a black racist. Afrolito thinks I’m the “queerty house nego”

      I’m doing something right.

      May 9, 2009 at 8:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Afrolito seems to think I’m the “queerty house negro”

      May 9, 2009 at 8:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @Chitown Kev: No offense, but I’m pretty sure that’s because you ride the fence pretty hard. You don’t seem to stay on either side of the issue no matter the topic. You just kinda flip-flop.

      Not trying to be insulting, just what I’ve noticed. I could see why they’d say that.

      May 9, 2009 at 8:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito

      @Chitown Kev:

      I don’t recall naming names, but it’s interesting how you assumed it was about you. Have you heard that about yourself before??

      May 9, 2009 at 8:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      I guess you proved that the life of the average american homosexual is equivalent to the life of the average botswanan homosexual with regard to the bigotry they experience as a result of being gay! The case cracker! blow yourself (and yeah, I know you would if you could).

      May 9, 2009 at 8:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @TANK: Nice to see you’re having temper tantrums on more than one topic. You really are a good joke.

      May 9, 2009 at 8:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      That’s a stretch. Just an observation. You have nothing that could be charitably classed “reasoning” to debate with. Just a lot of invective and false accusation. Nothing wrong with invective so long as substance makes an appearance somewhere (an argument). You’re an empty vessel. No substance…no nada.

      May 9, 2009 at 8:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Not flip-flopping, with all due respect. I operate more so on a ground of principles which are not necessarily dictated solely on the basis of the color of my skin. Remember I dressed down you and another poster on another thread for the exact same thing, more or less.

      @afrolito: Actually, I have.

      I have no moral obligation or imperative to agree with you (or anyone else) solely on the basis of skin color.

      If accountability had read any of my posts on any number of these subjects, he or she would know that the racist he needs to be concerned about is the one he sees in the mirror.

      May 9, 2009 at 8:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Yeah, I would calll you a racist for that use of terminology but it has nothing to do with your criticism of botswana.

      May 9, 2009 at 9:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK

      @Chitown Kev:

      Well, I couldn’t care less…because I know that if that’s true (that you believe that term means that it can apply to me classing an ideology or legal system primitive)…then it’s pretty much meaningless.

      May 9, 2009 at 9:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK

      @Chitown Kev:

      However, I do respect your opinion, and if I offended you, that wasn’t my intention, and I apologize the terminology.

      May 9, 2009 at 9:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      uh, so the United States stopped being like like those “primitive african nations” in 2003, is that it? And Botswana is a whole 5 or 6 years behind the United States. (Yes, there were many states that took sodomy laws off of the books before Lawrence v. Texas.)

      May 9, 2009 at 9:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK

      @Chitown Kev:

      With regard to that, some states were terribly primitive, and in other regards, still are. But there are differences, no? That’s a country’s “federal” law, whereas the antisodomy laws were a state by state thing. But hell yes, some states didn’t have much to stand on–we didn’t execute gays–before lawrence.

      May 9, 2009 at 9:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CitizenGeek

      I am, frankly, shocked and outraged by how easily many posters are exclaiming “racist!”. Racism is a very real and very serious problem, so bandying it about when everyone anyone states the fact that African nations are much, much more homophobic than most other nations. I don’t understand why black people are so protective of African countries and their homophobia.

      You can use all the linguistic gymnastics you like, but at the end of the day black people are more homophobic than white people (and by that, I mean, Africa is more homophobic than Europe or America/Canada). I don’t say this as a white person on his high horse, either!

      May 9, 2009 at 10:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Here’s the problem in saying that, though.

      You really can’t say that without noting the role of the spread of Christianity into Africa during colonial times. Nor can you note that by excluding the role that religious institutions have played (the Catholic Church, Exdous International, etc.) in that.

      And is Russia or Poland considered part of Europe nowadays?

      May 9, 2009 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      I get what you’re implying about overuse, but I disagree.

      It’s too important an issue to not use the word when it is appropriate, and frankly I think there’s been an incredible amount of open racism on here lately.

      I’ll call it when I see it.

      May 9, 2009 at 11:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason

      Homophobia is homophobia, period. If it exists, it should be pointed out. If black people are homophobic, they should be pointed out in the same way white people are pointed out. Being colored should not be used as a cloak to mask or justify prejudices.

      May 10, 2009 at 1:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TI2

      Wow, this has really got to stop. This article is relevant and not racist. It is the commenters that make it sound racist when it is not, don’t be so sensitive and stop grouping people. There are so many goddamn complainers on this website. I enjoyed this post and did not once think about them being black, only that they were homophobes. It really disgusts me that people such as StrumpetWoodStock would use this as a chance to cry racism and use stereotypes about…Americans? We’re ALL gay, we should stand up against homophobia anywhere it occurs.

      Racism is equally disgusting and should be fought but no when something is actually racism. This article wasn’t posted because it involves black people it was posted because it involves homophobes. The obama article wasn’t posted because Obama was black it was posted because of his gay marriage stance. Stop stirring the flames!

      May 10, 2009 at 3:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TI2

      This actually saddens me deeply. We’re all here because we are gay or supportive of gays. Yet all there is is arguing and hatred, there isn’t much hope when people who share so many beliefs and values fight one another so viciously.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      I’m Canadian, actually. And about as white as they come.

      More importantly, go look at any article here about Carrie Prejean, Rick Warren, or any other white person.
      Do any of those articles say anything about the fact they are white?
      No… because it is not relevant.

      So why do we see articles concerning black people which contain references to how much more homophobic blacks are, or articles specifically about black homophobia.

      Have there been any articles about white homophobia?

      May 10, 2009 at 5:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rapport

      I think the point of this article was to show that in some countries, being proud of homophobia will make you a winner, but now in the United States it will make you a loser. Probably it is focusing on how we’re advancing as a community, and that outward disapproval of our lifestyle is actually a display of lower value. I don’t know what the problem is between gay people and black people, but I know that it’s there, and I hope it gets better.

      May 10, 2009 at 6:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      In a thread earlier this week someone said Margaret Cho should leave the U.S. and go to Korea (in fact she is a U.S.-born citizen).
      I called the person on it and had several people jump on me who did not see that as a racist statement.

      When was the last time you read of a white American-born citizen being told to go back to England

      When a white person says something homophobic race is never mentioned. But if you have a disagreement with a non-white person it is somehow okay to bring race and citizenship into the equation and start talking about “them and us”.

      May 10, 2009 at 7:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake


      It never fails that when a story features someone who is black that the comments always veer to blanket racist statements about all black people. The anti-black commentators never make similar statements about whites/Europeans. When gays are bashed or are murdered by whites, these people never make the same kind of statements.

      Lawrence King was a biracial black child murdered by a white child. Right? Who murdered African-American Michael Sandy? White men. Who murdered white American Matthew Shepard? White men? Who murdered white American Brandon Teena? White men. Who are the major leaders of the anti-gay movement in the United States? White Americans like the leaders of Focus on the Family.

      Why is homophobia among whites not talked about in terms of race???


      Bullsh#t. Racism is racism. The fact that the comments here are being directed about a group of people says it all. No such comments are made against whites when white s like Carrie Prejean, Rick Warren, Newt Gingrich, or Mitch McConnell spew their racism. Why are there no discussions about the horrors of white homophobia?

      Given the stories of anti-gay extremism in European countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia, Romania, Croatia or Bosnia, where are the similar discussions of “white homophobia”?

      Crickets are chirping…

      Violent homophobia is not exclusive to any people.

      The laws against homosexuality in Africa were written by the European colonial governments. The version of Christianity that enforces homophobia was brought to those countries by white Europeans.

      @Strumpetwindsock, @Chicagokev, Etc.,

      Thank you all for your intelligent comments. The racism on this site sometimes is horrific as is the championship of ignorance.

      Latvia: Homophobia forced me to leave my church and my country

      Concerns over increased and state-supported homophobia in Poland

      Poland: Homophobia Spreads with Government Backing

      Moscow’s persecuted homosexual population hope that Eurovision will highlight the prejudice they experience

      Lithuania: Amnesty rallies supporters to oppose rising homophobia in Baltic state

      European Greens urge Croatian Government to condemn homophobic attacks:
      http://www.europeangreens.org/cms/default/dok/192/192060.european_gree[email protected]

      May 10, 2009 at 9:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq

      @TI2: Not exactly true, some are here for gossip and pic’s of what is considered ‘sexy’ by the editors, and only a few are here for equal rights for all gays around the globe, more than a few are here for their rights alone and could care less about the rights of gays of color in this country or those in oppressive counties.

      And to keep it real, more than a few are here to spew racial slurs whenever they see a black face, that would be the truth, like it or not.

      May 10, 2009 at 9:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq

      @rapport: The problem between gays at large or white gays and blacks of any gender persuasion? The loud, crass, outspoken posters here seem to hate blacks, gay, straight or trisexual and have no shame in showing it.

      May 10, 2009 at 9:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CitizenGeek

      Black people are a distinct community in the U.S., white people are too numerous to be considered a “community”.

      May 10, 2009 at 9:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael

      Botswana doesn’t sound anything like that cutesy HBO show featuring Jill Scott. It sounds more akin to my lovely home state Louisiana where intolerance is still king or should I say queen.

      May 10, 2009 at 10:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      I’m not even black OR american and I can see through that one.

      Are you talking about African Americans who have been there since the days of slavery? Immigrants from any number of distinct caribbean islands with different languages and cultures (Trinidad, Haiti, Cuba, Jamaica)? Brazil? Any one of a number of countries and cultures in the huge continent of Africa (again, different languages and cultures)?

      Are you talking about AA from the north? Mixed-race? South? Urban? Rural? Rich? Poor?

      You THINK it is one community because all you see is BLACK.

      It wouldn’t be such a big deal if there were one piece about it, but this is a running editorial slant, IMO. It’s a great excuse to play victim and project anger onto someone else while ignoring our own problems.

      It teaches nothing but Hatred.

      May 10, 2009 at 12:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nick

      One of my best friends lived in Russia for about 6 months a few years ago. He was open. The only thing he got to show for it was a a crude castration and a fatal beating. The police just laughed, and have made no moves to arrest the murderers even though they know exactly who did it.

      May 10, 2009 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TI2


      VERY few, and that is equally despicable behavior, racism and homophobia in all forms should end. But we should realize when something is actual racism and when something is just calling someone out on their homophobia even if they happen to be black.


      I wasn’t referring to that, I think that the commenters who spread actual racist remarks should be targeted. I think that we run the risk of being to sensitive. If there is ever a valid article that happens to deal with blacks or another race its going to accumulate comments that say it is racist, purely because of the fact that the people involved are a different color.

      May 10, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK

      @Chitown Kev:

      Colonialism may explain it, but it doesn’t excuse it.

      May 10, 2009 at 2:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito


      “Have there been any articles about white homophobia?”


      I thought it was common knowledge that only blacks are homophobic. This site is just reflecting the true reality of the world.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      Colonialism is not trying to excuse it, but to not allow the conversation to degrade into one over race rather than what it really is: religion. The core problem here is that we are not discussing how fundamentalism impacts treatment of gays both domestically and abroad. The reality is that Africa still today is being influenced by evangelicals such as Rich Warren who push their agenda in Africa. I am not saying that as an excuse, but as a way to understand how to address the problem, We can not address the problem as one of race. We can only address it as one of understanding what cultural forces are producing the problem and to try to address those ccultural forces. That’s the failure of describing it as black versus white. That scale is irrelevant. It was the same CA. The two most accurate predictor of vote outcomes in Prop 8 were what type church, if anyone, one attended and economic status. The 40 percent of blacks who did vote against prop 8 were typically of higher economic bracket or not of the same fundamentalist faith as some other African Americans. We would miss that,a nd often do, because people do not focus on the faith element. The point is to go deeper than race because race tells you nothing,b ut the religion point and educational level does.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Let me think about this.

      I think that Blacvks are distinct as a communtiy based on race and that’s more or less it. If you refuse to recognize that and you think that all blacks think alike, then that’s your problem. Don’t make it mine.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers

      Stump and Tank:

      By the way- yes this site has an editorial bias in favor of focusing on race rather than on homophobia as it relates to cultural rather than racial divides. I have seen it a few times. The thing about this bias is that its a very natural thing to want to exploit. Like sexual orientation, it is one that is still a hot button. but here it does not serve the value we want it to serve. The key issue is not whether blacks are voting for or against gay rights, but why they are voting for or agai nst. Those issues to not differ from their white counterparts. That’s the thing that’s important. The irony is that Africa prior to the influence of Christianity and Islam was supposed a place more tolerant of sexual diversity, but with the infusion of the same issue that affects most whites on the subject- we see the same sorts of behaviors. Yes, those behaviors now exist to a different degree, but that is a) a result of the fact that the fundamentalists can not get away with that here (not because they don[‘t want to put us in jail here) and b) is a reflection of where we are in the process (remember it was only 50 years ago that Europe was putting us into extermination camps along with the Jews). We need to understand these things as what they are, and race as this site tends to focus misses the point. I return you to my discussion of music. My problem with the hip hop article the other day was that the bias missed the point of discussing how homophobia exists in different formes across music genre, and my wish that we discuss these things at their root and in more complex ways (such as the soft hidden homophobia of country music) rather than settling on the very easy – racial divides.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      It is even more complicated than that because what is black will vary from place to place. In NYC someone can be much darker than I am (I am medium complexion for a black guy) and say they are not black, but instead Dominican or Cuban, and each of these will affect different cultural beliefs and norms. In Latin American for example we see these efforts for gay equailty (indeed I believe it was brazil who pushed for the UN resolution to condemn criminalizing homosexuality),a nd yet Brazil has a very ethinically mixed, culture that is definitely not white as in how people think of European white or African as we think of Africans. THe point is that by focusing on color rather than cultural forces we miss a whole lot of deeper truths.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt

      @The Gay Numbers: Methinks you’re asking too much of the Queerty staff. They’re almost never the ones to take the conversation to a level deep enough to matter. That’s not what they’re after. They post superficially controversial nonsense because it gives the site more hits, which increases ad revenue. Their only motivation is money, not intelligent discourse. Us readers are the ones who bring that to the table, when we want to.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers

      Oh, I know Vern: wishful thinking on my part about the site owner and some of the posters. I can not really judge the site owners to harshly about the traffic issue. I am developing an own online business (trying to get out of practice of law). Finding strategies to a) to be noticed with great meaningufl content and b) creating repeat traffic that matters to advertisers are both hard.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Yeah, I can see that.

      I don’t actually have a problem with calling homophobia within a community. What I don’t like is when it turns into branding any community or race as worse than us.

      I know that some communities are further behind some of ours in terms of awareness and acceptance, but it is counterproductive when it turns into attack, and an excuse to rest on our laurels and think that we are better people than they are (or to say they don’t belong here, or are to blame for voting away our rights).

      I have mentioned a few times that we are fortunate to have marriage equality in Canada. I think it as much a lucky accident as anything else, actually.

      I am certainly under no illusion that there is no homophobia here, nor do I think that we are more enlightened than Americans.
      Still, I have thrown it in people’s faces on one or two occasions, but only when it was some person going on about how America is the greatest, most free and democratic place in the world.

      Frankly I think if I can wake people up from that narcotic illusion I am doing them a favour.

      We ALL have work to do, and there is no excuse to think we are better than anyone else.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev

      Why am I being flagged?

      May 10, 2009 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      I do, actually.

      There was a post a few weeks ago about the country of India, referring to its “democracy” in ironic quotes.

      There is no reason whatsoever to pull ignorant shit like that.
      India is a democratic nation. There are enough examples of vote fraud in our countries without putting down someone else for no reason whatsoever.

      That’s just one example.

      May 10, 2009 at 3:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:
      Not me.

      May 10, 2009 at 4:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: You do what? I’m momentarily confused.

      May 10, 2009 at 4:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      Sorry… thinking to fast to connect my sentences to their points of reference.

      “I do actually”… hold them responsible for SOME of the tenor of the debate in here.

      There are plenty of articles and headlines which have a real slant. I am NOT trying to insult anyone’s intelligence, but perception of a story can swing wildly with the inclusion of a single word, particularly one with ironic quotes.

      We often don’t even recognize that we are being steered in a certain direction.

      May 10, 2009 at 4:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: Ah, okay. My confusion arose from the fact that I was being half-facetious in that post. I understand now, and really do agree with you on that. Whoever’s doing the bulk of the writing these days is incredibly irresponsible, and more than a little callous as well. Maybe other folks would think the manipulations are subtle, but I notice plenty of them.

      May 10, 2009 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake


      Thank you for having common sense. It’s shocking how people like Citizengeek are deliberately this ignorant.

      May 10, 2009 at 4:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake


      I’m sorry to hear about your loss.

      European countries like Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, and Poland still have government sponsored homophobia. Why is the homophobia there not aligned with white’s as race?

      May 10, 2009 at 4:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • An Other Greek

      Binary oppositions derail substantive analysis.

      It is possible both to discuss homophobia in a particular culture, while remembering the complexities and variables within that culture that present diverse manifestations of beliefs and practice. Yes we can.

      I have been shocked, disappointed, saddened and outraged at the racism on this site, particularly during the primaries (remember??),


      I am also fatigued with apologists who clinch on absolutisms, binaries, and relativisms, to drain a conversation of its topic.

      I both acknowledge the racism of this site (inadvertent often, I like to believe) and the gay community in general, just as I am coming to acknowledge that there are people who cannot look at issues (homophobia) objectively when it comes to critiquing a culture they feel an association with.

      Why allow each other to –react– and hold on to misstated, sophomoric, or extreme arguments? Sure, some stupid shit NEEDS to be addressed, but not manipulated… This takes away focus and understanding of core issues and concerns.

      Denying racism in the gay community is a joke.
      Similarly, declaring racism any/everytime homophobia is examined when in context of an African or diaspora community of color is just as much a joke.

      Let’s all work. Together.


      May 10, 2009 at 4:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      I have not seen many posts saying not to look at culture. The arguments have been to look at culture rather than race because the later tells us nothing useful. Someone is not a homophobe because they are black. They are a homophobe because of conservative christian or muslim doctrines. To the extent that whites are no so influenced by these conservative doctrine is more an example of where they are in a process thats been going on for 1000s of years. For the record, I believe much of this is a product of religion being used to address discrimination. This in term leads to accepting extreme doctrines. That’s not apologizing for it. That’s saying we need to understand how to solve the problem by understadning what the problem is. It’s extermist relgion. In more developed countries, the economic advancements (againmy belief) allow for people to more readily not cling to extreme beliefs. In Jaimaca is a good example of that. That’s a country that’s against not exactly wealthy. So, what do they do, they cling to extreme beleifs.

      May 10, 2009 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Because (as James Baldwin so ruthlessly noted) there is no such thing as a “white race” until they come to America.

      By the same token, there is no such thing as a “black race” really other than the visibllity of the color of one’s skin.

      May 10, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Natt

      If colonial rule was the precipitator for Africa’s homophobia, why do African leaders continually maintain that, homosexuality was, & remains, an exclusively European perversion?

      May 10, 2009 at 6:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake

      @An Other Greek:

      Argh! You’re missing the point. Africa is a continent! It’s no more has a singular culture than does Europe. Greek culture is not French culture. Basque culture is not Albanian culture either.

      Similarly, the culture of Botswana is not the same as South Africa or Egypt or Nigeria or Congo.

      Pathetic attempts to paint instances of homophobia across a whole continent is more than intellectually laziness, it’s based on racism, which is easily demonstrated when people just use the generic term “black people.”

      Are white Frenchman the same as white Britons? No one would reasonably say so. Then why do we continue to hear the ridiculous assertions about Africans even when there is plenty of bloody evidence that shows Africans are just as culturally divided as Europe. Rwandan Tutsis vs Hutus. Sudanese northerners vs. southerners. Ethiopia vs. Somalia.

      Jeez. The majority of African-Americans are no more African than are the majority of white Americans European. Hell, to be technical, the majority of African-Americans are mixed-race (read a book). Shocking news, Barack Obama doesn’t look that different from his wife, Will Smith, or any other African-American who is of mixed ancestry that spans generations.

      Moreover, dismissing the legacy of colonialism on African negative perceptions of homosexuality is just a way for whites to ignore their own culpability. Britain imposed strict sodomy laws in most of its colonies. These same laws exist today in India and other parts of Asia.

      What’s shocking is that people continue to delude themselves as to the reality that laws against homosexuality in the U.S. were valid and enforced in the U.S. until just a few short years ago when the U.S. Supreme Court struck them down.

      Any attempt to make the U.S. as having a long standing history of gay tolerance is a farce considering how the Republican Party still uses anti-gay bias as a wedge issue. GLBT Americans are murdered, raped, and otherwise discriminated against in the U.S.

      Gays can lose their jobs, be denied house, be refused access to their partners in hospitals, and receive second class treatment from their local, state, and federal authorities routinely because of their sexual orientation.

      Have gays become more accepted in the U.S.? Yes. But that is a recent and tenuous acceptance. The FoxNews crowd is still out there. Ann Coulter, who proudly berated John Edwards as a fag last year, is still a hero of the GOP. The Catholic Church is still anti-gay and still led by mostly white clergy in the U.S. and in Rome.

      It’s one thing to discuss homophobia in another country like Botswana but it’s another thing to make the homophobia into some generalized racial critique based on the common denominator of skin color. That’s just a nice way of ignoring the basis for the homophobia (again, colonialism left its mark in law, religion, culture, etc.).

      The governments of Russia, Poland, Latvia, Romania, and Lithuania have all been under the spotlight for supporting anti-gay activity. Why aren’t the people of these countries and their homophobia discussed in alignment with race of their population?

      May 10, 2009 at 6:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      For the same reason syphilis was called “the French Disease” in Italy, and “The Italian Disease” in France>

      No surprise there.

      May 10, 2009 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      Why don’t you ask the same of evangelicals in America who are white who make outlandish statements about history such as marriage was a religious institution, when in fact, historically it was a civil one? the truth is people lie to justify their bigotry. People also use illogical arguments such as yours to reinforce what they already want to believe about a group too. Neither one is right.

      May 10, 2009 at 7:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • An Other Greek



      Straw-man much?

      I never made the conclusions you accuse me of…, but thanks for your words, anyway.

      Much more interesting than the obvious fact that Africa is a continent, cross-cultural, -racial, -etc…, and your warning not to make such stupid mistakes, is, for me, what connections we can string together? To answer you: Sure, Africa is diverse, and African diaspora communities are distinct from African and other diaspora communities, but are there commonalities and connectors?
      (These commonalities are pursued, illuminated and celebrated when topics are more agreeable, btw.)

      Still, that was not the point of my comment, my comment lamented the oppositional and absolutist positions people take when approaching the topic of homophobia.


      May 10, 2009 at 7:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alec

      @Natt: They cloak it behind the twin religions of their oppressors, Islam and Christianity, but really, xenophobia of any sort, once awakened, takes a long time to eliminate.

      May 10, 2009 at 9:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      You are responding to a strawman construction by yourself sense you are creating a false equivalency amongst everyone discussing the issue,a nd then, like the mainstream press argue against this fake equivalency. The fact is not everyone here, and indeed, the great bulk is arguing against the idea that there is homophobia is Africa. The question is what is the source and how to address it. That’s why the cultural issues are relevant as it is when discussing all other places homophobia appears.

      May 10, 2009 at 9:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev

      @An Other Greek:

      The issue is Greek, why would you look for these commanailities in Africa and not look at them in, say, Eastern Europe (which seems as virulently homophobic to me). Then again with many of those Eastern European countries there has always been a hesitancy to include them in “Europe” so…

      For example that little contingent of Russian protestors at the Prop 8 hearings in March…very nasty…they can’t hold a pride parade in Moscow without fear of arrest, beatings….

      May 10, 2009 at 9:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • An Other Greek

      Yes, Gay Numbers, agreed. Mostly and with both your posts. Although I’m not sure about your assertion that “the great bulk is arguing against the idea that there is homophobia is Africa.” That seems curious, sort of like Ahmadenijad claiming there are no gays in Iran. Absolutist-ish.

      But, since this post is about Ms. Botswana and not Ms. Anyone Else, then let’s stay on topic. I am not arguing against a straw-man when I say, in this thread, the topic becomes why the inquiry is “racist” rather than why the inquiry “is”; the topic of homophobia post-modernly becomes a debate about whether any inquiry into homophobia in an African country and/or a diaspora culture is inherently racist or not.

      Of course, a deeper look in the virulent homophobia plaguing Russia is always welcome as well.


      May 10, 2009 at 10:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alec

      The most homophobic countries on the planet are Islamic Arabic and Persian countries in the Middle East. Hands down, not even a question. Maybe you could add North Korea to the mix if we had any idea what was going on there, but this isn’t really much of a debate.

      Some African countries are very homophobic, but with a couple of exceptions there has been nothing like the crackdown we’ve seen in Iran, Iraq and everyone’s favorite bastion of tolerance, Saudi Arabia.

      Having settled the question of which nations are the most homophobic, perhaps we can turn our attention to relative degrees of openness. Russia and Eastern Europe are fairly homophobic, particularly the former, but there are remedies there for people who are the target of state abuse (namely, European courts). There’s no real remedy in much of Africa and basically the entire Middle East, save, in the former, Senegal, where an appellate court tossed out the draconian sentences of those nine men.

      May 10, 2009 at 10:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers

      The issue is the same whether Russia or Africa- religion. But because the site is more interested in hot button American issues like race they choose race. I am pretty clear where the bigotry comes from in Africa because if you look at the history pre-Christianity and Islam, you do not see the same attitudes over sexuality. I agree those few people claiming per se racism are full of it when they say we can not discuss homophobia in Africa or any place else for that matter. However, they are not the owners of this site. I am more concerned with the owners trying to spin the conversation in a way that baits race rather than discusses the underlying issue over how religion impacts us. Like I have mentioned the two biggest determinants of how people view homosexuality are religion (if one comes from a conservative religion) and economics (low income people typically having very little education or the necessary grounding in core principles to understand what things mean outside of the emotional buttons that society pushes). Now, is this an excuse for homophobia? No. It’s trying to actually solve the problem rather than fan pointless tensions. The fact is we could settle on race as the “cause” and years from now still not have changed anything because the causation is not race. It’s economics and religion.

      May 10, 2009 at 11:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • An Other Greek

      Queerty may have editorial issues, as you point out. I’ll repeat that I was vocally disappointed in the (inadvertent? yet explicit racism), particularly in the threads, during the primaries. But, I am even more concerned by the homophobia, and in some communities in particular over others, than I am of Queerty’s purity and correctness.

      And, yes, again, I agree.

      But understanding the causes of homophobia, economics and religion, still leaves us with the homophobia, and its effects, which are neither universal, nor relative.

      Shame is not the same as violence, and different approaches are warranted depending of the severity and frequency of the oppression.

      Understanding “why” is elemental, basic, necessary. But it is not an end. And certainly not an apology.


      May 10, 2009 at 11:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Plus once there is a perceived editorial slant it undercuts any serious reporting.
      This story might not have been so bad in isolation, but when you consider it along with other anti-black articles, it looks less like an honest piece and more like another attack.

      And I’m sure you know I think most homophobia just comes down to something a lot more ingrained than religion – gut-level creeped-out xenophobia. Religion is a great vehicle, but it’s not the root.

      Remember that fellow in a thread earlier this week, who when he ran out of his polite bible references fell back on his REAL fears and hatred… disgusting references about fudge packing, shitty cocks and other refined criticism.

      May 10, 2009 at 11:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:
      Exactly, couldn’t have said it better myself.

      “Race” (a completely meaningless term biologically speaking) is a red herring in this whole debate.

      I would also expand the term “religion” and say “ideology.” Much of the anti-gay legislation was placed on the books by the Communist regimes of the Soviet Union (specifically Stalin). That legislation was not lifted until Gorbachev and Yeltsin’s presidencies.

      And all of the the former republics of the Soviet Union have issues with virulent homophobia, I should add. Not just Russia.

      May 10, 2009 at 11:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      “And I’m sure you know I think most homophobia just comes down to something a lot more ingrained than religion – gut-level creeped-out xenophobia. Religion is a great vehicle, but it’s not the root.”

      Strumpt, I totally agree with this statement. This, more than anything else, is what I have personally disliked about many African American communities. It really has little to do with homophobia. I remember just the feeling of…freedom in going through the Detroit-Windsor tunnel or over the Ambassador Bridge and being in Canada. And being depressed in returning home.

      May 10, 2009 at 11:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Granted, I understand the reasons for xenophobia in African American communities, but speaking for myself I always found it kind of distateful.

      May 10, 2009 at 11:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:

      and I have seen the exact same xenophobia in other ethnic communities, even “white” ethnic communities.

      May 10, 2009 at 11:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:
      You’ve got that right.

      And some things might be mellower up here but racism (particularly anti-Indian out west here) is a complete fucking national shame. Makes me want to pitch some of those arrogant fools on a slow boat myself.

      Though I don’t know how bad it is down south.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      Some variants of religion is the root. I am not saying that all religon is bad. I am saying some of it is. There is no way around that and it’s not just prejudice. People are born with the ability to discriminate, but not against a particular group- that part is taught.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      I’m assuming you are talking about East Indian racism? Particularly since the passage of Nafta and the outsourcing of jobs, it’s gotten a little worse. Interesting thing is in Chicago, Indians and Pakistanis pretty much live in and own businesses on the same strip (Devon Ave.) and they seem to get along fine here. Though I would still say that it’s a segregated community.

      By the way, I also think that “the gay community” can be pretty xenophobic too, for many of the same reasons.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @The Gay Numbers:
      Agreed… and I know religious intolerance has certainly taken on a life of its own.

      @Chitown Kev:
      No, I mean native Indians, who are about 25% of the population of our province. The main discrimination is from dumbfuck whites who feel the natives are getting the best of our treaties, while in reality most reserves don’t even have drinkable water. There have also been several unproven murders, likely committed by police – people driven out of town and left to freeze to death.

      The native population is going to hit 50 percent in about 40 years, so those fucking mooniasses had better start to learn how to speak Cree.

      I wouldn’t say there’s as much discrimination against newer immigrants – though there is some against growing oriental and sikh communities in Calgary and Vancouver. There are parts of greater Vancouver you can go and be the only white person around and all the signs are in Chinese (personally, I think that is okay, though obviously it does cause some cultural problems).

      May 11, 2009 at 12:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers

      Re NAFTA

      THat’s not about bigotry. That’s about selling Americans to globalization without a plan to help them. It’s about things like labor wage aribitrage, which was predictable, as was the race to the bottom that we have seen over the last decade. There is racism against people, but somethings are just economic reality.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @The Gay Numbers:
      Yeah, we ALL got sold.
      Goods and money move freely (sort of) but people sure can’t.
      And NAFTA (and other agreements) are being used for all sorts of challenges to our healthcare system, environmental protection and other standards, our single desk wheat board – challenges to all kinds of things that are properly the jurisdiction of governments, and should be democratically decided.

      I know there’s bitching on both sides of the border (and in Mexico too, I am sure) but I think the only winners are the multinationals (as I think you are saying).

      May 11, 2009 at 1:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz

      omg this actually turned into an intelligent debate!

      very encouraging to see a comment thread pull back and stop the name-calling. for once.

      May 11, 2009 at 8:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake

      @Chitown Kev:

      I don’t disagree. Europeans saw themselves (and still do) by their ethnic and class distinctions prior to the slave trade. Asians still have intense ethnic squabbles (Korea/Japan, China/Japan, etc.).

      Using “race”@An Other Greek:

      Not a straw-man, my comment was not directed just to you but more broadly towards the arguments that discuss homophobia among Africans and African-Americans in a singular way that is not done for whites and white Europeans.

      Homophobia amongst “blacks” is viewed racially. It’s a “black problem.” In contrast, anti-gay philosophies and actions among whites are said to be based in religion or even science; it’s not a “white problem.” Do you link homophobia amongst white Americans to that of white Europeans?

      As a long time Queerty reader, whenever articles appear that feature someone “black” expressing homophobia, comments are made about how terrible “black homophobia” is. It all becomes about race and not the real underlying issues of homophobia. It’s a frickin’ merry-go-round.

      In this comment thread, someone referred to Miss Botswana as a “spearchucker.” Why do so? It’s a racial epithet. The woman is reduced to a racist caricature. This is what happens over and over on Queerty.


      May 11, 2009 at 10:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq

      @blake: I think you summed it all up into a nice neat package. Black and homophobic, its the whole race, black gays included, any other race, its religion, amazing at how twisted so many are and still have issues learned in childhood and are not at all willing to say they have major issues with all blacks, gay or straight, other than the ones who can sing and entertain them, LOL!.

      May 11, 2009 at 10:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      I agree and disagree with this DABQ.

      What many white gays (and black straights) do is to pose a false dilemma that you have to choose between one or the other.

      May 11, 2009 at 10:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @Chitown Kev: No “black straights” have made me choose between “one or the other” and most “white gays” haven’t given me the option.

      May 11, 2009 at 11:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:

      It IS a false dilemma, also because really those that insist on demonizing enemies to hate are all on the same side, whether it’s a queer activist, or a religious fundamentalist talking.

      “No talk, no compromise” is exactly what the fundamentalists are arguing, and those in our camp who argue for that are just helping keep discrimination in place.

      You don’t educate people and end discrimination by perpetuating strife and division.

      May 11, 2009 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev



      I refuse to fall for it. I’ve read a little bit too much bell hooks for that. And had a few too many varied social experiences for that.

      @Lex: I am not trying to deny your experience but don’t deny mine either. For example, many of those who have actually encouraged me to give spirituality and religion another chance have actually been “white” LGBTs who go to church (or the temple or whatever and wherever)

      May 11, 2009 at 12:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:

      I think all the bullshit I (and many others) have argued against comes down to the fact that we will never outnumber the straights, so trying to change by force of numbers will never happen.

      And if we have to win by force it’s not the kind of victory I want, anyway.

      Any strategy that is based on “us and them” and weeding out traitors in our midst is just a non-starter, in my opinion.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @strumpetwindsock: Nothing will change until we add a human face to “homosexuality” and that won’t happen until the majority of us stop hiding in gay ghettos and playing the freak. No more parades, no advertising fetishes, no more playing the stereotype. Just a neighbor people can get to know like anyone else.

      That’s how everyone else who won civil rights battles won them. Integration. Being seen, being known.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock


      May 11, 2009 at 12:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock


      Parades ARE fun, though.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      I somewhat agree with this in the sense that “the gay community” (like any other oppressed minority) can take on xenophobic characteristics at times.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Straights LOVE to come to our parades, actually. Sure a lot of it is simply for the freak show and I don’t have all that much of a problem with the freak show (it being a parade and all) but we should be able to show them something else.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alec

      @Lex: Uh, those of us who don’t live (and have never lived) in the gay ghettos have been doing that for decades. It isn’t *that* uncommon for people to know LGBT individuals outside of the Castro, West Hollywood, Boystown and Chelsea these days, you know. There are plenty of states and metropolitan areas that don’t even have gay neighborhoods.

      No parades? Get real. No advertising fetishes? A bit too much to ask that people be asexual for the benefit of the movement. We’re dealing with individuals here.

      That’s how everyone else who won civil rights battles won them. Integration. Being seen, being known.

      Actually I think the court victories came first; mass integraion (followed by resegregation) followed.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @strumpetwindsock: True, but I mostly mean the inclusion of fetishes in them. Make the parades something children can attend and they transform from fodder the other side can use against us to something good for the community. Raise money for non-gay issues, add things to include straight friends and straight families of the surrounding communities, let them see us as people rather than sex addicts.

      Parades can be fun and by no means should we not have them…but it’s public we should show some tact. We’re the only group of people known for publicly forcing people to see X-rated stunts. That’s not exactly going to bring change.

      We need to stop looking to the government and start doing for ourselves.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @Alec: I’ve seen a few groups trying, they’re usually small, and quiet.

      Without PR there’s really no point. Go big or it’s a waste of time.

      People managed to make “Day Without a Gay” publicly known but can’t get attention for doing good things? Sounds a little off to me.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      typically the name calling is a result of a few psychotic posters who come here to start shit with the rest of us. Most posters have a pretty complicated view of the world from what i can tell.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Dude, you are sterotyping and almost on the verge of being offensive. Let them see us as other than “sex addicts”


      May 11, 2009 at 12:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      As far as Boystown is concerned, the straights have invaded there.

      May 11, 2009 at 12:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @Chitown Kev: How is the truth offensive?

      What do you call people walking down the street in broad day light ass-less chaps with no underwear on?

      Try not to be so sensitive then. There are people who are literally fodder for the other side of the argument. They don’t help a damned thing.

      A man wearing cut-off jeans to the point you can see his balls is going to draw negative attention, baby, come on don’t be so offended by the truth. Seriously.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers

      Incidentally, I am a black guy living in a working class black neighborhood in NY. I have also lived in gay ghettos. it’s funny to read these comments a bout straight blacks and gay white because those saying both can be highly discriminating are correct. The bigotry takes different forms, but it exist. Not just against each other, but also other groups, and withing the groups. Different groups of blacks from different ethnic background not liking each other. White middle class gays not liking blue collar gays. The truth is that everyone discriminates. That’s been a sad lesson I ahve learned. There is always some group that some other group does not like.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alec

      @Chitown Kev: I spend so little time in Chicago despite its proximity (what can I say? I prefer Toronto), that could easily be the case. Certainly true in the Castro, where gay and straight families are diluting the more overtly sexual culture there.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock


      I DO understand what you mean.

      That said, I think it depends where you are. The last Pride Day I attended was in Winnipeg, and it WAS a family event. The straights could hardly miss it because it went right through downtown.

      There were young children in the group I attended with, so I was paying attention. There was only one float I thought was a bit inappropriate for kids. THis might cramp some peoples’ lifestyles, but it’s a tradeoff you have to make if you want to have kids around. There’s plenty of opportunity to to be free and easy at age-restricted events.

      Same thing for Vancouver. The parade actually does run though the “ghetto”, for lack of a better word, but there are plenty of people of all ages there.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers

      By the way- the way I became comfortable with both parts of me was that unfortunately I had to live in those different places. I became comfortable with my sexuality in gay communities, and with my race by living around other black folk. I have typically found other gay black people to not be this way, and they often choose one or the other- black or gay. I refuse now to do that. Anyone who hangs with me ust accept both parts of me.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      There are a few gay men that do that, and they mostly do it at night. At least in Chicago. And I don’t live in the gayborhood in Chicago and many gays and lesbians don’t.

      @The Gay Numbers:

      I’m a black gay guy who’s lived (for the most part) in integrated neighborhoods. Both of the extremes you state have unique brands of their own xenophobia which turns me off.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev


      Truthfully, there’s more tension about gays/straights in Boystown than black/white, from what I can tell. Certainly, more newsstories have been written about the former and not the latter.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Almost identical experience for me, but I was fortunate to fina a neighborhood that was extremely integrated (race, income level, sexuality, etc.)

      May 11, 2009 at 1:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK


      Yeah, we shouldn’t do anything but sit and wait for the straight overlords to grant us rights. Another KAPO.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers


      I wish I could find something similar for a reasonable price in Brooklyn. It’s frustrating for me because I am simply not one to divide people up according to what racial, economic or sexual orientation they are. My big rule is that I was treated like such crap when I was young that I am not go ing to turn around an create more unnecessary pain in the world.

      May 11, 2009 at 1:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex

      @TANK: lol

      May 11, 2009 at 1:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jooj


      Are you stupid Lex, do you really not see the point of this article… why don’t you think on it a bit more and get back to us. Hint: It doesn’t have anything to do with her being black, maybe you should try and get past that.

      May 15, 2009 at 12:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeenaG

      So it’s OK to bash gays for being gay now? I could only imagine the uproar if I bashed blacks for being black. It’s the same exact thing.


      Dec 31, 2009 at 10:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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