Perhaps these forty-one chaplains have lost sight of the purpose of the chaplain corps. They seem to believe the free exercise of religion as guaranteed by the 1st Amendment is their exclusive and absolute right without regard to the constitutional rights and liberties of the troops whom they are called to serve. How else can they argue, with apparent sincerity, that their own free exercise of religion supersedes anti-discrimination laws? Under such a theory, President Truman would have been unable to integrate blacks into the armed forces, for many chaplains then believed that integration was sinful, and against God’s wishes. Years later, the military would not have been permitted to recognize interracial marriage, which many believed violated scripture. Or, what if another group of chaplains adhere to the scriptural punishment of death by stoning for children who talk back to their parents? Does their sincere religious belief shield them from criminal responsibility for throwing stones at a stubborn and disrespectful child? […] It bears repeating that the chaplain corps exists but for one purpose and one purpose alone: to secure the free exercise of religion for all of America’s service members. Chaplains cannot proselytize, nor can they put their own beliefs above those of others. And, they most certainly cannot castigate, ridicule or repress others in the free exercise of their values and beliefs.
—Chaplain Charles D. Camp, Capt. John F. Gundlach, and Chaplain Jerry L. Rhyne responding to the 41 military chaplains who wrote the president pleading to keep DADT in place [via]
RW in LGB
Yet more proof that religion is absolutely the MOST HARMFUL FORCE IN SOCIETY TODAY and SINCE HUMANITY BEGAN. Religion is corrosive, divisive, and utterly lacking in socially redeeming qualities whatsoever.
It’s time to divest ourselves of religion. It does nothing but destroy people.
holla
@RW in LGB: Not sure how this is proof of that, since the rebuttal was also written by chaplains (who clearly have a better understanding of their taxpayer-funded jobs than the 41 who opposed repeal). I know religion-bashing is a favourite pasttime for many here, but in this case I don’t quite see it.
a
Chaplain Charles D. Camp, Capt. John F. Gundlach, and Chaplain Jerry L. Rhyne are legit!
DR (the real one, not the guy who made post #12)
Just curious, where are the posts about letters from the United Church of Christ to the President demanding a repeal? Where are the posts about the letters signed by retired UCC Army Chaplains calling for the repeal? Where is any information about the members of the faith community calling for the repeal of DADT?
This is a very one-sided discussion on Queerty. If you want to demonize 41 chaplains, that’s fine, but you (editors) ought to give equal time to those in the faith community who support us in the fight for the repeal of DADT.
Brutus
Good lord. RELIGION isn’t corrosive; PEOPLE are corrosive and they use religious dogma as a tool just like anything else. Getting rid of religion tomorrow would not mysteriously solve the problem that a lot of people are just assholes. There are many positive effects to religion.
Bill Perdue
Religious people, steeped in ignorance and supersition are dangerous. To children. To GLBT people, and because they actively encourage the spread of HIV-AIDs.
From the BBC “The head of the Catholic Church in Mozambique has told the BBC he believes some European-made condoms are infected with HIV deliberately. Maputo Archbishop Francisco Chimoio claimed some anti-retroviral drugs were also infected “in order to finish quickly the African people”.
The Catholic Church formally opposes any use of condoms, advising fidelity within marriage or sexual abstinence.
From the GuardianVatican: condoms don’t stop Aids. The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass – potentially exposing thousands of people to risk. The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.
A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue. ”
Brutus, what makes you so dense. The christer cults are promoting the spread of HIV-AIDS. Is that one of the ” many positive effects to religion.”
The christer religion is a disease that comes howling into the modern world carrying all the madness of the Dark Ages. [img]http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv280/staunchusa/condoms_dont_protect_against_aids.gif[/img]
Cassandra
“Religion is corrosive, divisive, and utterly lacking in socially redeeming qualities whatsoever.”
You mean, like labeling the lives of millions of people around the world and across history: “a disease that comes howling into the modern world”, as Bill did? Divisive like claiming that the majority of all human beings who ever lived were/are wrong about their lives, just because Bill and his peers say so?
Remember the last time atheism held sway in a country – it brought forth the Stasi to persecute and extort, oppress and suppress the entire population of East Germany.
RW in LGB and Bill Perdue continue to use exactly the same language, accusations and tactics that homophobes use, only to target an even larger, even more diverse group of people.
Bill’s assertion: “The christer cults are promoting the spread of HIV-AIDS. Is that one of the ” many positive effects to religion.”
is a lie, proving that he has no moral compass. While the Vatican’s opposition to condom use is wrong, it is no “promoting the spread of HIV-AIDS”. The Catholic Church is promoting a different, and yes flawed, method to quell the spread HIV/AIDS, and that is a very different thing from the accusation Bill makes.
The reality is that Bill Perdue and his peers, like RW in LGB are exactly as degrading and vicious as any homophobe, including Fred Phelps. Fred likes to use shock graphics and lies, Bill likes to use shock graphics and lies. Fred revels in unleashing hate speech in public places, Bill revels in unleashing hate speech in public places.
Don’t be confused for a second, Bill’s posts are entirely about intimidating and verbally abusing people of faith to drive them into invisibility. And it is the explicit violence in his posts that proves that atheists cannot, will not ever end any form of prejudice, in fact, many work to support and sustain existings prejudices along with their malevolent prejudice against people of faith.
It is approaching time to begin writing the business taht advertise on Queerty about the acceptance, even nurturing, of hate speech that occurs here.
Cassandra
Frankly, Bill and his buddy’s response here is more evidence that atheism is just a prejudice, and nothing more.
After all, the article is a letter from 3 Christian Chaplains who are not only supportive of repealing DADT, but publically criticizing and rebuking some of their peers for supporting it.
These three chaplains are doing what Bill and his peers say they want, and still we get treated to hate speech from Bill.
With all the parallels between anti-Christians like Bill, and homophobes like Rekers, it stands to reason that there is an atheist equivalent to being caught with a rentboy.
It is only a matter of time before Bill is caught canoodling with a cleric, fondling the faithful, or reading the rosary beads.
Bill Perdue
@Cassandra: Like all serious ‘believers’ Cassandra is also a liar. They have to lie because what they believe is not reality based.
When the christers promote abstinence and lie about condoms and meds they promote the spread of HIV-AIDS. The proof is incontrivertable. Identify the countries infested by the christers.
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V4w18ZWaPas/ScAG1-HbFnI/AAAAAAAAEG8/xqJ19xVxJiI/s400/AIDS-Prevalence-in-Africa-2003.gif[/img]
Only an absolute idiot, the kind who thought that the Exorcist was a documentary, would claim otherwise.
Cassandra
“Like all serious ‘believers’ Cassandra is also a liar. They have to lie because what they believe is not reality based. ”
What a hoot. I state the accurate facts about the Catholic Church’s policy on condom use – which was put in place long before AIDS was discovered, long before the first cases of AIDS, and that makes me a liar. Must be opposite day at Bill’s house.
“When the christers promote abstinence and lie about condoms and meds they promote the spread of HIV-AIDS.”
No, that is a still an irrational statement Bill.
Abstinence, when completely implemented, does impede the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. It does not encourage people to go out and get those diseases. Abstinence does not “advance in rank, dignity, position any sexually transmitted disease, it does not encourage people to acquire HIV.
However, abstinence, in practice, is markedly less effective than safer sex practices. The truly abusive thing about Bill’s last post is that he calls me a liar for telling the truth, even though I explicitly stated: “While the Vatican’s opposition to condom use is wrong,”
Typical of bigotry, for Bill, anything any Christian does is wrong.
The Vatican’s opposition to condom use comes from its theology about birth control, and is wrong in more ways than just stopping the spread of AIDS. But, encouraging people to use a less than best method of avoiding sexual disease absolutely is not the equivalent to promoting the disease.
Of course, if Bill actually had a reasoned, rational and fact-based argument, he wouldn’t be resorting to name-calling like “Only an absolute idiot”.
Anti-Christian hate speech from Bill is exactly as reprehensible as hate speech from homophobes. But I guess that venting hate speech on the internet is much easier for atheists like Bill, than actually doing anything for anyone else other than themselves. Where is even one example of an atheist organization that is working for civil equality for GLBTQ people, or to fight poverty and hunger, or fight HIV/AIDS, or doing anything for anyone who isn’t an atheist?
Bill can find lots of shocking images to distort, but has yet to provide even one example of an atheist group doing anything for anyone other than themselves.
Brutus
Hey Bill,
Great logic. Let’s apply it in a different context.
Some gays are child molesters; therefore all gays are vile perverts.
Quit being such a fundamentalist.
Brutus
“Religious people, steeped in ignorance and supersition are dangerous.”
ANYONE steeped in ignorance and superstition is dangerous. Religion is neither necessary nor sufficient for that.
Brutus
Bill,
Assuming your map shows a correlation between HIV/AIDS prevalence and being “infested by the christers,” and assuming further that we’re willing to infer not only a correlation, but CAUSATION from these statistics, your map would likewise indicate that Islam does a good job of fighting the spread of HIV/AIDS.
As you may or may not be aware, Islam is also a religion.
Bill Perdue
Of course @Brutus: Of course there’s causation. Christers, both prot and roman, encourage the spread of HIV/AIDS. There’s no question about it – the christer cult equals death. It did during the Dark Ages, the crusades, the witch burnings and the Inquisition and it does now.
I don’t know what the islamist attitude to HIV/AIDS prevention is. Maybe you could do a little term paper and publish it for us. I’m betting though that it’s not like the totally backward christer attitude, which actively promotes the spread of the disease.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that much of North Africa is secular, that they actively suppress colonialist christers and that they promote public education.
In spite of the sick attempts at humor by you and Cassandra HIV/AIDS is not a small problem for African societies. Look at the map. In four countries over 30% of adults are positive, in six others, including the RSA, the rate is between 20 and 29.0% and in 8 other countries it’s between 10 and 19/9%. Hundreds of thousands are dead, and millions may die. 13.5 million are unable to get antiretroviral meds. There’s nothing even remotely funny about it.
In many countries, even those like with a large medical infrastructure like the RSA, the health systems has already collapsed under the weight of the plague.
[img]http://atheistblog.org/m/p/pope-condom-s.png[/img]
Brutus
I never said HIV/AIDS was a small problem.
I would encourage you to write “a little term paper” exhibiting the causal effect between RELIGION or CHRISTIANITY, as distinguished from the actions of select churches, and an increase in the spread of HIV/AIDS. I doubt, however, that you’d be able to put together something coherent enough for publication, as you’ve exhibited no such ability here.
B
In No. 14, Bill Perdue wrote, “I don’t know what the islamist attitude to HIV/AIDS prevention is. Maybe you could do a little term paper and publish it for us. I’m betting though that it’s not like the totally backward christer attitude, which actively promotes the spread of the disease.”
I guess Bill Perdue doesn’t read the news and doesn’t know that the official Islamic attitude is “no sex outside of marriage”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia : “In April 2005, the government convicted over a hundred men of homosexuality, but none were sentenced to be executed. All those men were given prison sentences with flogging because they were at a private party that was either a same-sex wedding ceremony or a birthday party.
http://phlamer.blogspot.com/2007/10/gay-in-saudi-arabia-7000-lashings.html : “Two men in Saudi Arabia have been sentenced to 7000 lashes each after being convicted of sodomy and have received their first round of punishment in public, a newspaper said today.”
Apparently if you are sufficiently discrete (and preferrably not a bottom), they will leave you alone, but if it is obvious, you will be treated very harshly.
jeffree
Hey: is anyone willing to talk about DADT?
Here are some questions to consider:
**Should chaplains –regardless of religious affiliation– have a say in the maintenance or repeal of DADT?
**Is it the role of the Chaplain to enforce military policy?
**When faced with self disclosure by a LGB member of the armed forces, what is the chaplain’s role now? What should it be? What would it look like after the repeal of DADT?
Lucky for the US and for us, some of those questions have been asked & answered by policies of other nations who have successfully integrated LGBs in2 their armed forces. Perhaps the US can review the role of chaplains: Protestants, Catholic, Jews, etc before and after that integration?
Is that too much to hope for or ask?
Cassandra
Guess the anti-faith bigots are afraid of the truth. Hiding it doesn’t make any of the following false.
RW in LGB wrote: “Religion is corrosive, divisive, and utterly lacking in socially redeeming qualities whatsoever.”
You mean, like labeling the lives of millions of people around the world and across history: “a disease that comes howling into the modern world”, as Bill did? Divisive like claiming that the majority of all human beings who ever lived were/are wrong about their lives, just because Bill and his peers say so?
Remember the last time atheism held sway in a country – it brought forth the Stasi to persecute and extort, oppress and suppress the entire population of East Germany.
RW in LGB and Bill Perdue continue to use exactly the same language, accusations and tactics that homophobes use, only to target an even larger, even more diverse group of people.
Bill’s assertion: “The christer cults are promoting the spread of HIV-AIDS. Is that one of the ” many positive effects to religion.”
is a lie, proving that he has no moral compass. While the Vatican’s opposition to condom use is wrong, it is no “promoting the spread of HIV-AIDS”. The Catholic Church is promoting a different, and yes flawed, method to quell the spread HIV/AIDS, and that is a very different thing from the accusation Bill makes.
The reality is that Bill Perdue and his peers, like RW in LGB are exactly as degrading and vicious as any homophobe, including Fred Phelps. Fred likes to use shock graphics and lies, Bill likes to use shock graphics and lies. Fred revels in unleashing hate speech in public places, Bill revels in unleashing hate speech in public places.
Don’t be confused for a second, Bill’s posts are entirely about intimidating and verbally abusing people of faith to drive them into invisibility. And it is the explicit violence in his posts that proves that atheists cannot, will not ever end any form of prejudice, in fact, many work to support and sustain existings prejudices along with their malevolent prejudice against people of faith.
It is approaching time to begin writing the business that advertise on Queerty about the acceptance, even nurturing, of hate speech that occurs here.
Atheism is a prejudice, and as Bill’s posts prove, its only purpose is to give him an excuse to harass and revile other human beings, and lie without remorse or accountability.
Cassandra
Remember Bill as you formulate your next lie by exaggeration and distortion – (blaming all Christians for the failings of the Catholic hierarchy is irrational and abusive):
Homophobes hate about 10% of humanity, since about 10% of human beings are gay or lesbian.
Atheists though hate 99% of humanity, since 99% of humanity participates in some form of religion.
Does it make you feel all noble and wonderful to know that you hate and revile more human beings than Fred Phelps does?
Bill Perdue
@B: This is B being stupid again. Poor thing, he just can’t seem to help himself.
The question is about the islamist attitues towards HIV/AIDS prevention, particularly in North Africa.
Strict observance of sexual mores may have some impact but it seems likely that preventative measures have more. We’re often told that because of the rigid seperation of the sexes before marriage that gay men in islamic countries have more opportunities for gay sex. It that’s true then preventative measures be available.
Brutus, hurry up with your assignment.
Brutus
Cassandra, while I don’t align myself with Bill, I’m also not willing to write all atheists off as “prejudiced.” Some, like Bill and Christopher Hitchens, and to a lesser extent Richard Dawkins, et al., see religion as a cancer that must be wiped out to allow humanity to make greater progress. I agree with them insofar as it pertains to the corruption inherent in dogmatic organized religion. Other atheists are content to merely hold their own private beliefs.
Bill, allow me to introduce you to a wonderful thing called “Google.” Through it, reams of information are at your fingertips. For instance:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1157962465531&pagename=Zone-English-HealthScience%2FHSELayout
http://www.peaceforlife.org/resources/faithresist/2009/09-0200-islamandaids.html
http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/what_role_does_islam_have_in_fighting_hiv_aids/
That last one has an interesting quote: “Islam and Muslims exacerbate the spread of AIDS,” said Professor Amina Wadud of Virginia Commonwealth University. So if that’s true, and from the other links it seems that Islam and the Catholic church have a similar approach to sex, your conclusions based on the map are unjustified.
You can bash the Church for its idiotic promotion of abstinence all you want, but please use whatever few IQ points remain rattling around in your head to realize that the Church does not have a monopoly on faith.
jeffree
So, the verdict is clear. The majority of responders want to debate the validity/ value –or lack thereof–of religion instead of speaking about the very real & very acute & very pertinent topic of DADT.
When someone wants to discuss the topic at hand –DADT & the role of chaplains in the repeal or enforcement of DADT, please do let us know –so that those of us with family members about to be discharged from the Military due to suspicions of them being LGB–can jump back into the conversation.
Michael vdB
@jeffree: Thank-you Jeffree. You hit the nail on the head. This article is not about HIV/AIDS or how hateful a whole religion (or non-religion) is.
DR (the real one, not the guy who made post #12)
@jeffree:
Jeffree, you ask some really good questions, the problem is that with all the changes popping up seemingly every day, it’s difficult to answer.
In March, Gates assured us that priest/penitent privilege will be enforced. I’m not sure how, to be honest. I guess the brass will have to ignore any DADT concern raised by a religious leader.
I have two people in my life with whom I am close who are involved in the chaplaincy. One is a retired Naval officer who worked with the Marines on his tour, and another is an active-duty chaplain with the PA Army National Guard. They’ve both expressed concern about the role of the military chaplain in DADT. They’ve expressed concerns that while chaplains who come from the ELCA, Episcopalian, UCC, Unitarian and other gay-friendly faith communities will not make a soldier’s life difficult for admitting his or her sexuality, they have also made it clear that some of the more fundamentalist chaplains feel that they have a duty to report someone who does.
Now that Gates is apparently trying to implement a policy which precludes clergy from reporting, it would seem, on its face, that they cannot rat someone out. That still creates a chilling effect on soldiers, however. When a clergymember makes it clear that he or she is not GLB friendly, the soldier will probably feel uncomfortable (to say the least!) with discussing any spiritual matters with him or her, and it’s likely that he or she will have a less-fulfilling spiritual life because of it. Which is a shame, because a Christian soldier serving in a war zone deserves comfort in his or her faith in such a time.
This is why the military needs more clergy from the more progressive sects, not fewer.