Like certain Internet personas, bitter author and Salon scribe Camille Paglia is not someone you necessarily want as a figurehead of the gay community. In this whirlwind ramble of an interview with Xtra, Paglia pits herself as one of those gay people who don’t care so much about being treated equally. Paglia, of course, has the fortune of being white and relatively wealthy, so she has the luxury of not worrying too much about how to handle the legal parenting issues responsibilities with her (now-ex) partner Allison, or how to afford the health care for their daughter. All you silly fags complaining about how President Obama won’t give you your rights are, frankly, pissing Camille off. So could you stop it please? (via TR)
pundits
Must We Care What Camille Paglia Has to Say About Fighting for Equality?
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LoveMoby
Very easy to say ‘I dont care about being treated equally’ when youre in her situation. How about she realizes most of us are not in her Prada loafers and are in desperate need of equality.
When you cant sponsor your partner for immigration benefits and have to leave the country you love for the man you love give me a call Ms Paglia. Until then, it is YOU who needs to shut up!
Cam
This reminds me of an interview I once saw Barbara Steisand on where she said something along the lines of “Just raise all the taxes to pay for everything, we can afford it. And I’m thinking, well yeah Barbara, YOU can afford an 80% tax brackett but the rest of the world…..
It’s the same way with Paglia. It is irrelevent if SHE wants to be treated equally, how dare she try to effect the treatment of the rest of us. It would be like a woman in China decades ago saying “I WANT my feet bound, so EVERY Woman has to have them bound because that is what I want. Ugh.
ChristopherM
I think the larger question is has anyone cared what Camille Paglia has to say about anything since the early 90s? She is the Ann Coulter of the left.
Fitz
I agree with Christopher, but go further. She really doesn’t have much to say. She bashes feminists, yet wants what they work for. And Of course she doesn’t want to be treated equally: “equally” would be a step down for a person of her position.
It is important to remember, i think, that the struggle for equality is not just for us. there will be more little glbt kids arriving soon enough who will be raised in a country where they are expected to pay more and get less & where they are told that their relationships don’t matter while being criticized for not having strong relationships. That is why even us older people who already have our self identity and relationships and security need to fight on.
Cam
@Fitz:
Amen!
walt zipprian
I had no idea that Camille Paglia was Mink Stole.
Derek de Koff
No.
schlukitz
@Fitz:
Hear. Hear.
socal lesbian
God I can’t stand her. Embarrassing that she is a lesbian. She’s a walking personality disorder who nearly had a break down when her hero Rush Limbaugh admitted to being a stinking drug addict. She’s a nutcase. Her whole gimmick is to be oppositional. Yawn. I used to even think she was kind of attractive but those days are long gone.
Good for Allison for dumping her crazy ass.
richgirl
She’s in love with a Brazilian superstar? WTF? Is that a joke?
But still living with Allison.
Oy. Why must our most visible representatives be the craziest?
TikiHead
Isn’t this really close to being Annette Benning’s portrayal of Augusten Burroughs’ crazy mom in ‘Running with Scissors?’ Hair’s the same.
Matt
Wow. Seriously this is the most ridiculous interview ever. She rambles on and on and then, as if the gay community has not suffered enough stereotypes, she dishes them out that “all gay men openly mess around and don’t last in committed relationships.” Her own relationship failed (probably because of her attitude toward all of this). When I first started watching I seriously didn’t realize that she was a lesbian because of her ramble about how you can’t have two moms or two dads. Wow.
TANK
@Fitz:
Don’t you mean elderly people in your case?
Tallskin
I am with “social lesbian” Camille Paglia is madder than a box of frogs, more insane than a mad hatter.
She is barking
sighing
None of these shrill responses actually reckons with Camille’s comments in any kind of a cohesive counterargument, and actually prove her assertion that many of today’s petulant foot-stomping queers are in fact childish.
Who needs leadership with such a patheric dearth of ideas?
White and relatively wealthy? — doesn’t that make you think of someone ELSE, Hauslaib? Don’t pick up the ethnic minority mantle on my behalf, Queerty, it’s condescending and ugly.
And Camille voices the opinions of a lot of us, those of us who still support Obama, who are concerned not only with gay civil-rights advancements, but with everything the fuck else that demands our attention right now. It’s not a pretty picture out there, and if you would get your heads out of your sandbox you would see that too. Of course, people like me and like Paglia are marginalized, accused of self-loathing, and generally told to shut up because we’re not toeing the line. Paglia is a brave, intelligent person, and I hope she continues to provoke your ire, because unlike you, Queerty, she has an original thought from time to time.
Justin Allen
fuck her. i have two dads and she doesn’t know squat
TomTom
Wasn’t this tired old dyke’s fifteen minutes up sometime back in the ’90s?
Marcelo
We must never be afraid to be self critical, even of those things we hold so dear.
It’s what stops us from being, well, right wingers.
So don’t be so harsh on Camille. She serves an important role. One that most Gays and Lesbians are too caught up in themselves to see.
That’s not to say that Gays and Lesbians are to blame for our lack of self criticism – we have generally become ‘lost in identity’ because of homophobia – which is unfortunate. Because one of the great pleasures in life, is being self-critical. Even of that which you consider YOU.
TikiHead
@sighing:
Ah, you said ‘shrill’ — how awesome: it puts us right in our place, and discredits us as well.
Frankly could not get through 30 seconds of her bloviating, since she started out saying gay parents are bad for kids. More gay selfishness!
Dale
You’re right, who cares about what she says. Let’s have some more Davey Wavey. Now there was a true intellect.
Fitz
You have to give Camilla lots of credit for one thing: she gets media attention despite having not had an original idea in 20 years. Even then her idea was just “If I say that feminists suck, the boys in charge might like me… now pay me equally and protect me legally, and don’t expect me to be pretty.”.
And Tank: I feel ya. You are trying, but you haven’t found my hook yet. I am very comfortable with my age & look, and have much less trouble getting what I want than I did when I was young.
TANK
I am very comfortable with my age & look,
Well, with all that medication pumping through your frail and failing system, how could you be anything but very “comfortable”–or is it catatonic? As to your look, I’m imagining something between bruce vilanch and the cryptkeeper.
and have much less trouble getting what I want than I did when I was young.
Tapioca pudding? Diaper changes?
traffick
When did she start dyeing her hair brown?
galefan2004
She has a write to her opinion. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. Personally, I will be happy when we get ENDA and DADT passed. I don’t see myself getting involved in a relationship inside this life time (I’m a very selfish person and I’m not about to give up any personal freedom to compromise in a relationship). However, I still respect those that think marriage equality is important, but I am much more concerned about rights that actually affect the entire community not just the part that wants to assimilate to straight culture.
M Shane
You don’t really have to care what anybody thinks ! and that’s about what seems to happen since gay politics has gone down the toilet and people stated reading anything with actual thought content. What makes people angry is the LaPaglia is one of the only actually extraordinary and courageous thinkers in America. All you folks who can’t read or follow a deep thought had better get off the boat but if you want to track reality don’t be twits. At least admit that you’re just to damned stupid to get her.
She makes a roomfull of the formost dykes look like a bunch of toads. As far as gay men go , since you ‘ve restricted your reading to Better Homes and Gardens, you wouldn’t know an idea from a wedding cake.
TANK
How is paglia courageous or extraordinary? Talk about setting the bar low. THat’s like calling andrew sullivan an intellectual.
Hexx
@Dale: I just died a little inside.
Steve
Wow, I *never* thought I’d find myself agreeing with Paglia.
She’s right on about gay marriage. Let’s focus on more important issues.
galefan2004
@Steve: I know this will make me sound like a total fucking hypocrite, and I deserve that criticism, but the truth is that marriage is a very important issue for many for various reasons. Although it does not directly affect me and never will because I don’t personally believe in marriage, I have to feel for the person that is denied access to the hospital room of their loved one. I also have to feel for those that can’t bring their loved ones to live in this country (like straight people can), and I also have to feel for those that have passed on only to have their estate stolen from their partner. I feel empathy for those people although I don’t always show it. I personally feel other issues should come first, but to say that gay marriage is not an important issue is unfair to those people.
M Shane
Of course she’s right, Steve. like all respectable thinkers.
galefan2004 : I don’t know who would imagine that Andrew Sulivan can think at all: he is however the twit who founded the marriage-Stockhlom syndrome in ‘gay politics’. You are the only one I’ve ever seen ditsy enough to put the two names on the same page.
TANK
@M Shane:
I assume you’re referring to me. Ditzy enough, huh? Andrew Sullivan is cut from the same cloth as that dinosaur paglia. They’re both celebrity “intellectual” faggots who’ve made it in the world being oppositional defiant gay for payers–giving their generic and stupid opinions that touch of “I’m not just saying something to be heard! I’m a queer saying something to be heard out loud!”
M Shane
No one with cultural knowledge and the audacity to face off with the feminist and gender idiocy of our culture knows that Paglia is one of the only genius’ in our century; certainly female. Line her up with all the other dykes and feminists around and they all come off very dim. To say nothing about a majority of the queens.
TANK
One of the only geniuses in our century….mmmmmmkay….LOL!
galefan2004
@M Shane: Dude, don’t attack me for stuff I didn’t even do. I get enough people pissed off at me for the stuff I do do on this site.
Fitz
@M Shane: I’m willing to learn. Tell us what of her ideas you find to be genius.
Steve
@galefan2004: I also empathize with people who are denied access to their partners in the hospital. But I empathize a lot more with people who can’t even get medical care because they have no insurance.
If people are worried about hospital visitation, then get a durable power of attorney and move on with it.
There are also ways around (most) of the inheritance issues. Hire a tax attorney. One of the few cases where people are truly screwed is the immigration issue.
But again, I empathize more with the millions of Americans who are living in such poverty that they could never contemplate traveling for a vacation, let alone meeting someone abroad and falling in love.
I’m not saying allowing same-sex marriage isn’t the “right” thing to do. What I am saying is that in the grand scheme of things, it’s pretty low on the importance scale.
Vince
Camille Paglia is the most underrated intellectuals in the world. It is appaling to read all these negative posts from those that I’m certain have never read her work. She is the most learned and thought provoking political and social pundit there is. That she’s not seen or heard more often speaks to the insularity and bias of the media elite who are threatened by her vast knowledge and intellect. I may not agree with everything that she says, but she is facinating nonetheless. What she says about the recent criticism of Obama on gay rights is right on target. It’s like give the man a break! The economy is in the tank, millions are unemployed, Iran wants nuclear weapons, but instead he should focus on giving whiny, rich, White gays anything they want when they want it! Obama is supposed to give up a ton of political capital to appease these brats!
Fitz
@Vince: Argument for another time, but 1) you and Camila seem to think is that “Political Capital” is some finite item to be sparingly triaged. Nonsense. Political Capital came from the will of the people… using it correctly increases it, not uses it up. 2) with all these other issues on his plate, his DOJ managed to find time to produce a vitriolic & homophobic defense which was way over the top. so “we don’t have time for this” doesn’t fly.
Bill S
No. We musn’t. Ever.
Next question.
Jim
Right on Camille! Once again thought provoking and always entertaining.
Jamie
@TANK:
But Sullivan IS an intellectual. He’s a Harvard PhD, for christ’s sake. And Paglia, whether or not you agree with her, is an exceedingly smart and accomplished writer and academic as well.
You’re just one of those people who thinks anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, and that intelligence is measured by how closely someone adheres to your own views.
galefan2004
@Steve: Actually, no one is denied health care because they don’t have insurance. That is an absolute myth. Hospitals can not legally deny health care to anyone. They have to treat if there is a problem. They can’t deny treatment. However, they can keep billing if the person can afford treatment and that policy normally leaves the person losing everything they own. If the person can not afford treatment then they can’t even bill.
Durable power of attorneys are only worth the paper they are written on if the family doesn’t decide to over ride them. That paper means nothing if your legal next of kin decides that it shouldn’t when you are no longer able to make decisions on your own. The hospital will always abide by the wishes of the family. You will have to go to court to get the judge to order the hospital to side with you if the judge decides to do so, and in most cases the judge also sides with the family.
Actually, it completely and utterly depends on the state rather there is a way around the inheritance issue, but either which way the family has the right to contest the will, and if you end up in a state with a conservative judiciary there is a good chance that they will side with the family simply because you were in a gay relationship.
Its funny that you think that those that in binational relationships are 1) rich and 2) met their partner abroad. Many of them met their partner in this country when their partner was still on a visa. It also doesn’t take that much money to travel abroad (its about $1500 to go Europe for a week). I agree that people being in poverty sucks, but the majority of them wouldn’t want you feeling sorry for them. Those that want you to feel sorry for them are unwilling to help themselves so you simply shouldn’t feel sorry for them.
In the grand scheme of things, ending the denial of rights to a group of people in a country that prides itself on equal treatment of all people is not only a very important thing, it is the most important thing.
galefan2004
@Vince: If she honestly thinks that are gays are rich white men then she is insanely out of touch with the rest of the country. I want to see how she justifies the DOMA brief which takes about as much time as signing a stop loss does. I’m not going to argue that the woman isn’t brilliant because I don’t know enough to make a case, but in my experience some of the most brilliant people in the world are also the most out of touch with the real world.
Cam
@galefan2004: You said “However, I still respect those that think marriage equality is important, but I am much more concerned about rights that actually affect the entire community not just the part that wants to assimilate to straight culture.”
_________________________________________________________
The thing is, DOMA is what is preventing things like partners getting insurance, overseas spouses entering the coutnry etc… additionally it can be used to deny even single gays rights because it enshrines discrimination into law. It effects the entire spectrum. The thing I think is odd about your statment is this.
You don’t say in your other post that you don’t want to marry because you don’t want to “Assimilate into straight culture” you say that you are too selfish and don’t want to give up your freedoms.” So please be a bit less insulting, I know that YOU may not think you will ever want to be tied to one person, but if selfishness is your reasoning don’t accuse those of us who do feel that way of somehow politically selling out. You could just as easily accuse the teenager who grows up, stops being a pouty angst-ridden nightmare of “Assimilating” into adult culture…rather than just maturing. 😉
drew brown
Wow, I actually agree with her, for once. I’m frequently enraged by her column in Salon.com, but I think she’s absolutely right with her comments here. Gay activists are demonstrating a horrendous lack of a perspective with their whining about Obama given the immense challenges facing the U.S. and the world right now. She said it perfectly “keep up the drumbeat” of demanding progress, but just because it doesn’t happen overnight doesn’t mean we all have to fall apart.
M Shane
@Fitz and anyone else: C Paglia wrote “Sexual Persona”, which if you havn’t read, you have no place saying anything.
Some basic ideas coming from that Cultural history of gender in the Western World (which is long, highly researched) are that since the Celtic Cave men Women (Venus of Wilendorf)have been recognized as being extraordinarily different than men, physiologically and intelectually. That they have been revered as creators and perpetuators of the race.
She traces the history of art and the intermingeling of gender images in statuary and painting. A basic premise which makes all of these grim disel dykes angry is that she calls for a respect for women as being as important as men but different in many ways-physically primarily. As has been shown in fact, it is foolish to expect women to do the same things as men as well- Women are different not worse , maybe better but definetly not the same.
She has a great respect and love for the ways in which the gender roles are overlapped and intermixed. She is primarily an advocate in free thought, in departure dfrom our tendancy to be rigid in our thinking about gender. From some of her journalism, which is made to antagonize, you would not know that she has been one of the more knowledgeable scholars in this country: read her serious literature.
I don’t think that even a scholar would question her credentials. She’s an exceeding ly bright person on the American landscape. Thanks Vince, I agree.
M Shane
As far as Paglias courage goes, because she is one of the free thinkers in America, she has had to fight uphill just to keep a job, when the academic atmosphere is dominated by some narow minded bulldykes who want to believe that women are the very same as men in all important respects-in defiance of history ,art or common knowledge.
Not any dimwit gets to write for Salon or the publications whichshe can get into. Her very name inspires the same kind of fury that those of Thomas Paine, Jefferson, George Bernard Shaw or Oscar Wilde did.
Not long ago she had the courage to quote the brilliant but contentious Mark Simpson; Britains leading gay rable rouser and genious.
If you want to know American intellectual history , you need to hook up with Paglia. You need brass balls and a brain .
TANK
@Jamie:
Yes, a harvard phD. That does not make one an intellectal. In fact, harvard sucks and so do most if not all of its graduates. Do you consider Bush an intellectal, too? As to extrememy smart, I can only attribute that to the paucity of actual smart people you’ve been exposed to in your life. Accomplished? Well, many people who are frauds are accomplished by whatever metric determines that arbitrary accolade.
TANK
And a harvard phd in political science. Political science–where everyone with no brains and talent ends up…it is the repository–like english departments across the globe–for all the world’s bad philosophy and social criticism.
TANK
I once spoke to an highly esteemed political scientist who specialized in eastern european politics who informed me that hobbes’s natural state is presumed never to have existed in history. I had to explain the difference between a hypothetical scenario (which hobbes was explicit in stating it as) and an historical truth to him. I’m not being a prick; it’s just not impressive. And the andrew sullivans and camille paglia’s of the world are fourth rate social critics who’ve made their livings being gay and “provocative,” by merely disagreeing with perceived “status quo” ideas. It’s boring and predictable. You want social criticism worthy of the name “cultural”? Read nietzsche–perhaps the best cultural critic that ever drew breath. Not fucking camille paglia. Thank god gore vidal is still alive.
TANK
And most of the people who are against camille paglia–the feminists whose reason for being is going to war with empty headed people like paglia, creating aritifical controversey with equally empty headed notions of “gender” and feminism…are touting an equally sloppy theories…these social theories are so boring and simple…and so damn easy to refute.
M Shane
@Vince You ‘re right. Unfortunately, In America today those intelectuals who echo the mediocre malarky of the majority are praised; anyone who thinks individually or creatively is stoned. This is a sad fact which lends itself to this country being so frowned upon by cultured nations.
C-Teller
@sighing:
!!!THANK YOU!!!
Make a counterpoint people. Whining or “omfg how could u say that!!!” is not going to help
and jfc isn’t “white and wealthy” this Queerty’s main demographic? just stop
M Shane
You really don’t have to cae about anything. Especially if it’s a widely held, absolutely commonsensical position. Indeed she is being rather liberal in her veiw asserting that you have anything legitimate to ask for at all. Nearly all gay liberationists believe that all this wedding crap is crazy and an attempt to look respectable. Your only spokemen are idiots like Andrew Sullivan.
You have no one with any credentials. Just be thankful that a few people in the gay camp, despite being shut out by the right wing media, who see the asskissing homophobia that’s going on with marriage.
I can’t imagine how stupidity has become such a gay point of departure. Once we werethe bright , creative people now people just want to be breeder lap dogs.
TikiHead
@TANK:
Shorter Jamie: You can’t fight Ms. Paglia, she’s a SITH LORD!
/geek
TikiHead
@M Shane:
“breeder lap dogs”
How brave and right-hearted of you to tell people you know what they need better than they themselves do!
Jesus, is that you?
jason
Camille Paglia reminds me of Elton John – privileged and out-of-touch.
badleroybrown8
@M Shane:
Boy, your comments are overwritten.
You may have thought that you were giving a ‘stinging reply’ but you came across as pretentious.
First of all, Paglia has not had a compelling thought in about 16 years. Her first two books were intriguing, full of unorthodox ideas about sexual politics, nature and art. But she quickly became dogmatic. Anxious to prove her outlandish positions, she started writing more about current events. Her theories did not translate well (into scholarship that is practical and useful). This began in Vamps and Tramps – with a theory about sexual orientation which is now embarrassingly dated.
Camille has become obsessed with politics and the evils of the ‘gay elite’ (as seen in the interview). She is a raging hypocrite about lesbian parenting (of course her solution of ‘co-parenting’ is soooo much better. Please.). She finally committed hari-kari with her worship of that airhead Sarah Palin.
By the way, Paglia loves Andrew Sullivan.
Kim Thomas
I liked how she thinks it will be so much easier for children to have a mommy and a co-parent as opposed to two mommies. Right….So some bully is nah-nah-nah-nahing about the fact that his victim has two mommies. Whereupon, the bullied party can shout back “You’ve got it all wrong, Butch. I have only one mommie and her lesbian partner is just my co-parent. Yep, that will shut the bully up.