SOUNDBITES — “In fact, it’s time to stop with the niceties and simply tell it like it is: Enough with the Loving v. Virginia references and its ‘Blacks got their rights too’ reductivism. End the Mixner-styled ‘Gay Apartheid’ hysterics and endless take-downs of the Black church. It’s boring, it’s tired, it’s obnoxious and it’s offensive. Most crucially, same-sex marriage advocates must finally understand they cannot equate their struggle with the African-American battle for Civil Rights or South African movement to end Apartheid. Not because Marriage Equality is not a noble goal, but because they are simply not the same thing. And — yes, I’ll dare say it — because they simply have not earned it! A century passed between the end of slavery and the Civil Rights Movement’s first major successes. The anti-Apartheid movement took at least half that time. I only hope Gay folks won’t have to wait so long.” —Transracial blogger David Kaufman, who describes himself as “American, mixed-race, Jewish and Gay,” in a wayward defense of President Obama and attack on LGBT leaders and voices (including this blog), where he notes the “marriage equality movement is slowly dying in the rest of the nation” (via)
David Kaufman
“Same-sex marriage advocates cannot equate their struggle with the African-American battle for Civil Rights or South African movement to end Apartheid. They simply have not earned it!”
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Cam
All this shows is that this douchebag is much more loyal to his political party than he is to his birthright. Many black leaders were against fighting for rights in the way of Rosa Parks…here is a little snippet from her biography…
“In Montgomery, like most towns in the Deep South, buses were segregated. Rosa Parks and other civil rights activists considered using these tactics in Montgomery. However, under pressure from the NAACP, this never took place. Thurgood Marshall, head of the NAACP’s legal department, was strongly against these tactics and warned that a “disobedience movement on the part of Negroes and their white allies, if employed in the South, would result in wholesale slaughter with no good achieved.”
……
so back then you had leaders saying basically that none of this would do any good. Same here, you have somebody trying to debate whether or not our struggle can reference Loving v. VA. He doesn’t give a good reason why our inability to get married is different, merely saying “we haven’t earned it”. Sorry but that isn’t a valid reason. Right is right and fair is fair, and even though I can use the example of every gay kid who has been killed or committed suicide, there shouldn’t be a pain threshhold before we can demand rights. This guy is a sad example of political discourse. He has nothing to back up his statements but a number on the victimology scale. If he wants to give up his “gay” label i’m sure nobody else would mind.
B Damion
As a gay black man i am torn..i agree with the article. But i also know our struggle as a gay community is here. I want so badly to take a side. but I’m torn.
ggreen
Discrimination is never a good thing.
royinkc
Tell the hundreds of thousands of GLBT’s who died during the holocaust we haven’t suffered enough.
Equal rights have nothing to do with suffering and everything to do with what is fair and just.
terrwill
What a fucking douchefag! Seems to me that there have been Gays who have been discriminated against in this country for as long as the Black folks have been. How bout the Lesbians and Gays who were deemed “witches” and burned at the stake? Methinks 300 years is enough time……. Gays have been bashed, beaten, and murdered as long as the Blacks. It disgusts me when a black like that miserable crunt Bernice King seem to forget that little nugget. That vile witch went so far as to give a speech at her Fathers grave to denouce Gay marriage. She spit all over his grave. The Blacks were at the back of the bus only 50 years ago. Too many of them forget that and are only too willing to wish to see the Gays in those same seats on the same bus……..
Kaydeez
I can hide the fact that I’m gay but I can never hide the fact that I’m black. Though I’m for gay marriage, there is a difference. A big difference
Attmay
@terrwill:
We have been oppressed longer. Blacks have been oppressed for 400 years, starting when they were first brought to the West as slaves. Our oppression dates back centuries further.
And yes we were targeted in the Holocaust. We are continuously targeted in Holocausts internationally in the Muslim Middle East and much of Africa.
Chitown Kev
David Kaufman himself can kiss the pink part of my ass.
Having said that…
My insistence has never been on the direct comparison. I don’t think that our community should be saying that our discrimination is like like ________________ .
We have a story, that story is noble in and of itself, and we need to tell that story and not rely on the story of any other community. Period.
NoDoubleStandards
Earned it? As a black guy, this is interesting to me. I didn’t know we had to go through all that shit with slavery and Jim Crow to prove we earned the right to be equal in this country. Who knew equality was a matter of earning it rather than what we are given b virtue of being citizens of this country. Good to know. I am sure Martin Luther King Jr meant earning it when he said “I have a dream”
NoDoubleStandards
Christians can hide the fact they are Christians. Jews during the Holocaust could have hid the fact that they are Jewish. Again, interesting definitions of what is oppression to use the fact that the opressor can force the oppressed to hide it. By that logic, if the Jews wanted to not be exterminated, they should have hid their Jewish background and beliefs. Be care what others that your own internalized issue with sexuality make you say. It leads to the absurdity that I just mentioned.
royinkc
Good for you Kaydeez if you like to hide, I DON’T and the moment I open my big gay mouth all doubt is removed as to whether i am gay or not.
I have been beaten, bashed and robbed while being called every foul name one can conceive of and I’ll be goddamned if I take a back seat to anyone.
John
This guy is an idiot. Gays were here before blacks OR whites. They’ve just done a better job beating down the gay community.
Chitown Kev
Kaufman, you are a lowlife.
How dare you scapegoat the gay community and gay blogs. for the Scott Brown win in Massachusetts.
No wonder you were trying to tell me to lighten up earlier today, you were doing nothing but race-baiting an issue that wasn’t even really an LGBT.
Did your lazy black ass go look up election returns? Provincetown voted over 80% for Coakley and the Southie voted at 70%.
No matter what is said on blogs, nigga, THOSE are the votes that count in Massachusetts. Not that Coakley got much of a turnout, because she didn’t.
I guess it’s really like my aunt always said, “niggers and flies I do despise.”
I want regular Queerty readers to know exactly how upset I am at this punk ass bitch Kaufman right now.
jason
Message to David Kaufman:
We haven’t earned it? Honey, I think gay people have been oppressed far longer than other groups, including blacks and Jews. If you go back through history, almost every society has banned us.
It’s our turn, honey. Now either lead or get out of the fucking way.
Timothy Kincaid
“I can hide the fact that I’m gay but I can never hide the fact that I’m black. Though I’m for gay marriage, there is a difference. A big difference”
Oh lucky you…. but what about the guys and gals who can never hid the fact that they are gay? Yeah, you know them, and no amount of teaching them the art of the closet will fool anyone.
And can you “hide the fact that you are gay” when you are living your life with integrity? Or does that only work for the sneaking around, no spouse, take advantage of some poor girl, type of “gay”?
I know that many African Americans believe that the term “civil rights” means “black rights”. Nope. And Dr. King, Mildred Loving, Julian Bond, and those who really and truly knew what they were fighting for didn’t make that mistake.
Civil rights belong to African Americans because they are rights that belong to every member of civil society, no matter what race. And it is a great disservice to those brave and principled men and women to think that they are just “race rights”.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
@Kaydeez:
I can hide the fact that I’m gay but I can never hide the fact that I’m black. Though I’m for gay marriage, there is a difference. A big difference
You’re right, there is a difference. Ask any teenager if they’d want to be gay, or black and guess which they’d choose. Ask any teenager if they’d want to be friends with a black person, or a queer person, and guess which they’d choose.
Therein lies the difference that, clear as it is, you cannot see–black has been elevated to something chic, while queerness is daily, reduced to something diseased.
The question is, Kaydeez, would you want to hide your blackness; and why do you hide your queerness? Please see above for the explanation.
Chitown Kev
And for folks to understand why I’m saying what I’m saying you need to read the link above…and to know a little of the history between me and this “brotha.”
Lukas P.
@Kaydeez: Yes, but a black child who experiences racial bullying at school has parents who understand and might take steps to get the bullying to stop. A gay kid who gets fagbashed at school may get beaten up at home by their queer-hating parents. Big difference.
As to the article: What haven’t we earned the right to fight for? That was one poorly thought-out line of reasoning, and provides ample fuel for haters to tell us to quit whining.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
I’m sure if Obama was white, Mr. Kaufman wouldn’t be defending him so vigorously. For someone who decries race-baiting, Mr. Kaufman uses it handedly to lambaste gay leaders. If queer leadership isn’t black enough for you, Mr. Kaufamn, then get off your black ass, and away from your computer and do something. God knows your bloviating isn’t–excuse me–ain’t doin’ shit.
jason
Don’t be side-tracked by douchebag David. He’s just angry that we gays are pissed off at the Democrats. Douchebag David wants us to all vote Democrat regardless of their policies on gays. He wants us to think as a collective rather than as individuals.
Well, those days are over. I will never vote for another Democrat again. If that means that Republicans win the upcoming races, so be it. I’d rather have an honest conservative than a lying liberal.
Shade
Saying “The gay rights movement is just like the black civil rights movement” is a bad idea. I actually dislike most analogies in arguments just because there is never a very clean match up on these things.
I do agree with using the Loving case to discuss the history of marriage rights in this country. But saying “Here we see where the court ruled on the issue of marriage rights” and saying “We want the same thing black people wanted from 1863 to the present.”
If your argument deeply offends the person you are trying to convince – even when you feel deeply that you are right, it isn’t likely to be an effective argument.
JRD
No, well, I mean, he’s right…
Gay bashings are nothing like lynchings at all…
Gays have never been beaten and tied to fence posts.
We’ve never been forcibly sodomized or tortured or persecuted.
We’ve never been turned away from a church.
We can’t possibly fathom the comparison and don’t deserve to use it.
We’ve never had our families turn our backs because we are “choosing” a partner they disapprove of.
We gays don’t know what it’s like to be second class citizens.
That’s what it comes down to. Until we have equal rights, public perception will not change completely. The bigots will never fade into obscurity until we force the norm. Read your history.
asa1973
As a gay black man, I honestly understand both sides, and I ultimately want to win the marriage fight. Getting married is definitely a civil right. But why do we have to compare our struggle to anyone elses? It clearly has not and is not working for us, so let’s find another way of communicating why equal rights is so important to us.
The very heart of this issue is that people who don’t support us confuse their religious and pseudo-religious beliefs with Constitutional law. We have to continue to drive home the point that while a person is free to practice whatever faith s/he chooses, that faith has nothing to do with Constitutional law. The Bible and the Constitution are separate pieces of writing. You can’t use the Bible (or any religious document/book) as a reason to deny someone equal rights under the U.S. (non-religious-as-in-separation-of-church-and-state) law. The belief that religion should be the basis of civil law is what is keeping us from being treated equally – not black folks’ acceptance of our fight as equal to the black civil rights movement.
Seriously – I think the gay rights orgs (large and grassroots) or our nation need to enlist the help of gays of color to give insight on crafting their messages to communities of color. They should also hire some of the same folks to be spokespersons for their orgs. This will go a long way in making it clear that the gay rights fight is not a white fight. We gay black folks have spent year and years speaking to our families about the importance of gay rights without venturing into the territory of the black civil rights movement. And we’ve been successful many times. You might learn something valuable if you reach out to us.
Just some thoughts…
ChrisM
Kaydeez, there is no fucking difference at all when it comes to civil rights. It doesn’t matter who the oppressed group is or how visible they are. Nobody should have to “earn” equality under the law. The people who fit into the majority of every category – white, heterosexual males – have never had to “earn” equal rights in this country. You know why? Because they realized that they shouldn’t have to! But the same should, yet rarely does, apply to minorities as well. Of course, once people have their own rights it’s hard for them to care one way or another about others’. In fact, David Kaufman seems to be pushing it and saying it’s only right that us gays should be denied equality a little bit longer.
Kieran
Who the hell designated this putz to decide whether the American gay community has or hasn’t “earned” civil rights? In the Jewish dictionary under ‘Chutzpah’ there must be a picture of David Kaufman.
Chitown Kev
@Timothy Kincaid:
“Oh lucky you…. but what about the guys and gals who can never hid the fact that they are gay?”
Beat me to it, Timothy (thanks for all that you do by the way).
And I can hide neither my blackness nor my gayness. So I can speak on this.
@Lukas P.:
Not necessarily if the child is being bullied because he’s TOO dark-skinned.
What this bitch Kaufman needs to do is to talk to the ~1/5 of black Massachusetts voters that in a PPP Poll stated their intention to vote for Kaufman.
That said, I think in this particular quote that Queerty likes cause it drives up the hits, there is some truth to it.
So now the brigades of black homophobes will come crawling out uttering the vilest and most bigoted shit (that I don’t like either) because Kaufman doen’t take too kindly to the exposure of Obama and the Democrats defiencies in leadership that led to the Massachuetts debacle. Just say folks are racist and it will all go away.
Dirty Ole Man
I agree 100% with Kaufman!
If I had a dime for every Vitriolic, Racist comment I’ve read by a White Gay man on various blogs and message boards, I’d be a rich bitch by now! Most of them are closet republicans anyway.
They simply don’t give a damn about people of color and the issues that face them on a daily. How dare you compare being
Gay in America to the struggles of African Americans!
**rolls eyes and sashays off the stage**
Chitown Kev
@ChrisM:
“Nobody should have to “earn” equality under the law.”
You’d think.
Welcome to being a minority. Woman and black folk still don’t have equality under the law. I could make the case that the Civil Rights act had little or no effect to the way racial bigotry was (and still is) practiced in the North.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
@Shade:
If your argument deeply offends the person you are trying to convince – even when you feel deeply that you are right, it isn’t likely to be an effective argument.
Therein lies the difference, Shade. Black Americans didn’t have to convince other Americans about the rightness of equal marriage for all races. In fact, 90% of Americans opposed mixed-race marriages. Yet, the American court and American government made it so. So why then, do American queers have to go with our hats in our hands and beg permission from Americans who never did?
1EqualityUSA
If same-sex marriage became legal, I wonder how many LGBT would migrate away from the Democrats. As long as the Dems have this carrot called, “equality” to dangle at the queers, we are their creatures. The Dems are just sitting on the front porch, sipping Lime Rickies, and watching the gay dollars roll in. The Supreme Court should be our primary concern.
Kaydeez
I didn’t think my comment would cause such an uproar. My intention was not to discredit or downplay the price that many gays have paid for being gay. I was just stating a difference; and I do not believe we as gay people have to compare ourselves to any other group to prove the point that we have numerous rights that are being denied. But comparing ourselves to blacks isn’t the answer. Do I have the answer maybe — exposure, education, awareness.
But I love all the comments because most of you are very intelligent and make very valid points –
Mr. Enemabag Jones
@1EqualityUSA:
If same-sex marriage became legal, I wonder how many LGBT would migrate away from the Democrats. As long as the Dems have this carrot called, “equality” to dangle at the queers, we are their creatures.
Bingo! The Dems know which side their bread is buttered on.
Mike in Asheville, nee "in Brooklyn"
@Cam:
Hey Cam, here we agree 100000%.
Who the fuck is David Kaufman and what gives him the moral authority to determine what is in the best interests of the gay community? Evidently he hasn’t been one of us pushing, pulling, toiling for marriage-equality. Ironically he bashes David Mixner, who once was a major apologist for Bill Clinton and DADT and DOMA.
I hate these dolts who place party over people; people FIRST, party way way down the list, dip shit.
Makes me appreciate the true believers in the Civil Right crusades such as the very eloquent Julian Bond who recently testified in New Jersey on behalf of marriage-equality: “As my late neighbor and friend Coretta Scott King said in 1998: ‘Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity, and their personhood.'” Bond later exclaimed “Separate is never equal.”
scott ny'er
@1EqualityUSA: Where? Where would one migrate to? The Republicans? That’s like going from a hot point and jumping right into the fire. You’re bound to get burned.
Point me and others in the better direction please.
Chitown Kev
@Kaydeez:
I mean, there IS a difference, I wasn’t hating on your comment at all. But…
see as soon as anyone sees me they KNOW that I’m, indeed, black and gay. I really can’t hide either one and I have been in situations where I wasn’t able to properly identify why I was being discriminated against.
My thing is this…
The (continuing) struggle of the black community is noble and heroic in stature as far as the history books are concerned. Ours, as gay people, is barely in the mainstream history books (if at all). And there are layers of shame that really go with us telling our story (and I think a lot of those layers have to do with the sexism and misogyny with which homophobia is really related too).
I think that the willingness of the gy community to “latch on” so to speak to the story of the black community actually has very little to do with racism.
I think it has to do with homophobia.
Jallon
“Earned it”? Does this schmuck have some sort of bigotry metric worked out in his dysfunctional mind? Exactly how much suffering, persecution and disenfranchisement does a group need to endure before they have “earned” the right to be treated with respect and given the same legal rights and protections that we are all supposed to enjoy as citizens?
Marriage is a right granted by the government and thus by definition a “civil right.” Yes, these are different struggles, with different dimensions and different challenges, but they are for the same thing.
Then again, maybe he’s right.
Maybe we’re expecting too much too quickly.
Nothing worse than a bunch of uppity faggots, right?
Peter
The Christians started demonizing Gays around 400 AD. The Catholics made it official in 1215. Is not that long enough; over 1000 years?
“A person’s religion applies ONLY to those who chose to believe that religion. It does not apply to the non-believer of that religion. It does not apply to any other religion. THAT is why this country has a Constitution that keeps religion and civil rights of the people separate.
It is amazing that so many people can not comprehend what a true Democracy we have. Do they REALLY want a theocracy, like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Uganda, where only one religion is tolerated?
Cam
No. 6 · Kaydeez said…
I can hide the fact that I’m gay but I can never hide the fact that I’m black. Though I’m for gay marriage, there is a difference. A big difference
______________________________________-
Yeah, you’re right,….a BIG difference. Tell me, how difficult was it to tell you family that you were black? Did your family kick you out of the house when they found out? Did your mother walk in one day while you were “Being Black” with a friend and kick you out? Did your being black get reported to your church and were you excommunicated and had your rights in the Mormon temple stripped from you and had every single aquaintence break off their friendship or tell you you were going to hell? Did you come out as black at work and get fired for it because nobody knew you were black beforehand?
…………
Kaydeez, you said that there is a difference, and there is….however, you need to realize that nobody has a monopoly on suffering, and frankly, trying to say that just makes you seem ignorant.
mac mcneill
Well as a life long democrat, come next election, if I haven’t seen a repeal of “Don’t Ask, don’t tell” I will not be voting the party line for the first time in 62 years. I will probably sit out the next election and I incorage all gays to do the same. Obama will be a one term president for not doing the right thing about gays. As far as gay marriages goes, that’s in the hands of the Supremes. Either they will vote their religions and soil their robes or they will vote the Constitution and give us the right to marry.
Chitown Kev
“The schadenfreude surrounding Scott Brown’s Massachusetts Senate win is the final confirmation of the current LGBT leadership’s betrayal of 50 years of progressive politics. It began within minutes of Coakley’s concession speech: A volley of “I told you sos” by her haughty Carolina highness, Pam Spaulding. Mock-shock and caustic concern from the dirt-dishers over at Queerty. Dispassionate dispatches from those “just-the-facters” Towleroad, Joe.My.God and the AMERICAblog. And finally — a muddled, misanthropic, self-serving and — obvi! — Obama-bashing brief from David Mixner.
That Brown won should have come of little surprise to these LGBT “leaders” or their devoted fan base. After all, Spaulding, Queerty, Mixner and Co. practically cheer-led the former Cosmo-hunk to this critical triumph. Having officially turned on their president, these netrooters have conceded the greater good for their own shortsighted image-inflating. Well aware of the monumental consequences of a Republican win, Gay-stream media nevertheless continued their Dem-dissing and Obama-bashing with little concern for its election-day implications.”
Kaufmann needs to explain this shit.
Other than this, his article in the link above makes a point here and there. But this is scapegoating gay especially, and progressives as well.
Kaydeez
You make me laugh Cam — I can feel your passion but offer me a little compassion. I Got Nothing But Love for You Baby!!!! Have a great night — Lebron plays D Wade and I have 60 Mins DVR that I need to catch up on
Chitown Kev
@Cam:
This is OK, at least you are talking about the oppression that you face.
Interchanging the words is really not necessary, though. Our stories are noble enough to stand on their own.
Chitown Kev
” …the greatest offense of the past Gay 12 months has not been the sheer self-induced defeat. Rather, it’s been the complete and total intolerance for any sort of critical or original thinking by Gay leaders. Coming from a tradition of Wilde and Stein, Baldwin, Bowles, Kramer and Foucault, this is a truly 21st century state of affairs. Gays and Lesbians have an honorable history of liberation literature and intellect which seems, sadly, to have died during the AIDS years. Today, Gay media — both big and small — have become a marriage-focused monolith for whom nuance and subtlety are simply nonexistent.”
I do agree with Kaufman completely about this.
Steve
Obviously, David Kaufman has not studied history. Gays have been persecuted in western culture for more than a thousand years. Hundreds of thousands of gay people have been killed for nothing more than just being gay. The Roman Catholic church has killed thousands of gays. The government of every country in Europe, Africa, and America have each killed gay people. Hitler killed hundreds of thousands of gays, in less than one decade. When the Allies stopped Hitler at the end of World War 2, they immediately recognized the crimes against Jews, but allowed Germany to continue killing gays for another 30 years.
The fact that African Americans got their civil rights recognized before gay people, only tells us that black people are hated less than gay people. Gays are the most hated minority, the last to get any legal protections, and the last to get civil rights.
When people like David Kaufman argue that there should be any more delay, or that gay people have not been persecuted, it only illuminates their own prejudice.
Alexa
People have to EARN equality? Unbelievable.
Chitown Kev
@Alexa:
Yep.
You can’t sit on your ass and expect equality (as you define it) to be given to you.
Chitown Kev
@Steve:
“The fact that African Americans got their civil rights recognized before gay people, only tells us that black people are hated less than gay people.”
See, here where Kaufman and I do agree. The gay stupid. (Or “the gay brain drain”, as Dan Savage called it)
Even at the height of the black civil rights movement….there was little or no gay civil rights movement, there were very few gays that were out. African Amewricans began fighting for their civil rights before gay people felt it was safe to do so.
asa1973
@Steve: You are spot on with your history lesson. We (gays) have been persecuted for thousands of years.
I think Kaufman is scapegoating gays for Brown’s win in MA. In fact, much of what he says is out of anger and not very well thought out. But I don’t think he is saying there should be a delay in our civil rights. I think somewhere in those angrily constructed sentences he is trying to say that our intense focus on marriage equality sometimes blinds and deafens us to the complexity of what true, comprehensive civil rights would mean for all LGBTs. Our propensity to, at times, lash out at and alienate the very people that – with some intelligent and thoughful strategizing – we may be able to bring to our cause actually gets in the way of what we are trying so hard to achieve.
Chitown Kev
@asa1973:
The scapegoating for the loss in Massachusetts is what’s so distasteful about what could have been an otherwise decent essay.
Besides, gay marriage wasn’t an issue in Massachusetts, exactly. Coakley failed to turn out her base voters. That’s why she lost.
Cassandra
“Seriously – I think the gay rights orgs (large and grassroots) or our nation need to enlist the help of gays of color to give insight on crafting their messages to communities of color.”
Aren’t we being sabotaged enough by folks like David Kaufman and Kaydeez, and of course, our Republican in Democrat clothing, African-American, president?
Face it, for many people of color, GLBTQ civil equality is a “white people” issue, so opposing our civil equality is their chance to get a bit of petty revenge in. If the majority of GLBTQ people of color were actually out, things would be different.
Of course, there is still the issue – Prop 8 effectively creates the foundation to exempt other minorities, including people of color, from the equal protection. The bias Kaufman and company tacity nurture may just bite them back.
Chitown Kev
@Cassandra:
So do you think that I would exist in “you movement” ole crazy lady of the prophecies simply to sabatoge the movement?
Brian NJ
I hate this douchefag fuck. He is angry because he has egg all over his face: Obama is a wreck, a sell-out and a coward, throwing his own soldiers in the street every month!
David Kaufman does not understand what it means to be an American and to stand behind the Constitution. To these fucks, everything goes on sale and is up for negotiation. WRONG. We will burn down the house rather that let it fall into the forever deal-making fucktards like Rahm Emanuel and David Alexrod. Deals are off. No taxation without representation.
1EqualityUSA
Steve #43 is brilliant. As for where GLBT might migrate if equality is finally established and is no longer an issue, many may migrate to fiscally prudent politicians. Many are wealthy and protection of that wealth may become the burning issue, once their own equality is Constitutionally established. Some are super wealthy.
Cam
No. 42 · Chitown Kev
I think one area you missed is that people can finger point about the Dem’s loss, but you have to admit. The party got comfortable in MA. And they picked an insider who ran a terrible campaign. The fact that she was qoted as mocking policiticans who stood outside in the cold shaking hands made her come off as aloof and thinking she had it all in the bag. I think that in a state where independents make up the bulk of the electorate not picking a good campaigner was a huge mistake. In her defense, who the hell knew that Scott Brown knew how to campaign though.
Mike in Asheville, nee "in Brooklyn"
Man this stream is getting me really fucking angry. At first I read just the citation posted here by Queerty. I made my own post earlierl having come back and reading the new posts, I decided I needed to read the full article by Kaufman. Well now my blood is boiling.
Ignoring Kaufman’s idiotic use of logic to draft his faulty arguments (he fails to recognize the centuries of persecution of gays, simply because gays CAN choose to hide their identity) UNFUCKING BELIEVABLE. And continuing his idiocy, he blames disenfranchised gays and lesbians, all of us who were told unequivocally by Candidate Obama that President Obama would repeal DADT, work to repeal DOMA, and all those goodies “Changes you can believe in” health care reform.
Kaufman is only right about 1 thing: the LGBT community is mad as hell with Obama and the Democrats. And for good reason: After enduring 8 fucking years of Bush’s doing everything WRONG, we are now left with an administration, 4 years of doing nothing RIGHT.
Is the anger justified — you bet! It was Candidate Obama who said that America is strong enough, and that it was necessary for our future, to tackle all of the agenda from the beginning. So far, he hasn’t tackled jack shit.
The LGBT community achieved marriage-equality UNDER A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN CONTROL OF BOTH THE HOUSE AND SENATE. Well who the fuck needs Democrats if Democrats can’t do anything for anyone [but themselves].
Go to hell you fucking jackass dip shit Kaufman; and take the so-called Democratic leadership with you because they aren’t doing anything good for anyone.
Brian NJ
If David Kaufman understood history, he would understand that civil rights are not, in fact, “earned;” they are inalienable, and exist apart from work, merit and constitutional case law. They are part and parcel of the person, and cannot be bought and sold ant Obama-mart. Full recognition of equality is distinctly American, and it is not earned or granted, it already exists, but must be recognized by enlightened and educated American citizenry, of which David Kaufman is not a part.
Chitown Kev
@Cam:
Oh, I’ve said all that, Cam, although I think you may be referring to post #39 and not the one you cite.
But that’s not my point that I quoted, that’s Kaufman.
I am coming down on Kaufman for scapegoating.
Alexa
Brian, exactly.
edgyguy1426
I don’t know what he (Kaufman) means by ‘earned.’ Not enough died, fired, or does he mean simple we haven’t waited the requisite number of years..? What DO we have to do to ‘earn’ it in his eyes….because everyone will have a different yardstick.
Observer1000
Jews that died in the gas chambers earned nothing. They were murdered. Blacks that toiled in slavery earned nothing. They were exploited and abused.
Chitown Kev
@Brian NJ:
And doing that work to educate and enlighten the American citizenery is “earning it.” Gays haven’t really been at it long enough in any country.
Where I would disagree with Kaufman, though, it that he evidently thinks that it’s supposed to be the sole responsibility of the gay community to do so.
And…the black church, like other churches, do claim religious privilege over the subject of GLBT rights, so they have to be willing to take the hits as well. And…the congregants of black churches are overwhelmingly Democratic voters.
That’s why folks are focusing so much on black churches.
Mark
David Kaufman is wrong and disrespectful- part of the problem. His willful obstruction helps us at the end of the day. Equality will be ours!
San Francisco Treat
I’m with Brian @ post 55.
Chitown Kev
People seem to be taking offense and the word “earning it”.
It’s easy for may of you to talk about the 1954 Brown decision but hat you don’t often read about is the 30-40 year legal struggle prior to the Brown decision.
The Brown decision did not come out of thin air.
Chitown Kev
@54
Mike in Ashville got it right…
You wanna get really angry at Kaufman, read the link.
Chitown Kev
@Cam:
Additionally, Kaufman ignores the fact that typically, the voter turnout for the incumbent ruling party is always low when it comes to special elections and/or midterms.
Shade
@Mr. Enemabag Jones: “Therein lies the difference, Shade. Black Americans didn’t have to convince other Americans about the rightness of equal marriage for all races.”
As I said, I believe that Loving is an applicable comparison to make. What I think isn’t effective is making sweeping statements that “the gay civil rights movement is just like the black civil rights movement.” We have similar issues and we have different issues from that movement. We know that making too close a comparison offends many (not all but many) in the black community. Rather than debate whether or not that is fair let’s focus on whether or not its effective.
I agree with my fellow white gay man Dan Savage (from his interview with DL Hughley) that equating the movements isn’t effective.
1EqualityUSA
Shade, It’s not like this country has had thousands of years to sort this stuff out. We’ve had 233 years of history on which to make comparisons. Gays seeking equality and fighting discrimination sounds very similar, given our short past. Europe has had many generations to hash out issues. USA is a toddler.
Gay Unity
@Shade:
Shade–who said “just like”? You equate or compare something to show their similarities…obviously there are differences too. Who said “just like”? Link?
Or are you David in disguise here?
And the problem with wondering if it’s “effective”–is that it is true. These are civil rights we’re claiming. We’ll never stop claiming them. The gay civil rights movement is part of the larger civil rights movement.
Even if it makes some old homophobes mad for us to say so.
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
David Kaufman needs to bend over and pull his head out of his a@@! Equal Rights for same-gender loving men and women is a Civil and Human Rights. Obama won’t be around to do anything, anyway so who cares about the lame duck? Move on to the next battlefront! The Supreme Court!
Cassandra
“Chitown Kev
@Cassandra:
So do you think that I would exist in “you movement” ole crazy lady of the prophecies simply to sabatoge the movement?”
LOL. No, even a blind seeress can see that you’re just playing on daddy’s computer until it is time for you to go to bed.
For many people of color, opposing civil equality for GLBTQ people, which is perceived to be a “whites” issue, is a safe and easy way to say “fuck you” to “whitey”.
The sooner that’s acknowledged and addressed, the sooner we can make society fairer for everyone.
SoylentDiva
Does the douchebag not realize we’ve been struggling for our rights for thousands of years, not some piddly few centuries? Screw him and his BS claim that we “haven’t earned it”. I’m sick of these assholes who want to play the freaking Oppression Olympics every goddamn time we ask for what others have no right to withhold from us. Just give us our freaking rights!
CT
FUCK Kaufman. Why do some people feel the need to bring everyone else down because THEY (and not even they, rather their distant relatives) had it hard. Pathetic.
Cassandra
“Does the douchebag not realize we’ve been struggling for our rights for thousands of years, not some piddly few centuries? ”
In every generation, there have been 20-somethings who act and speak as if the world began the day they were born. Any event before their birth didn’t involve them, so it is so unimportant, it doesn’t factor into their thinking.
It is a stage that most people go through briefly in their teens, and most grow through and out of, but some, like Kaufman, remain stuck in a narcissistic vision of the world for decades after everyone else has grown up.
NoDefinition
Just a few points:
– Comparing the struggle for African-American rights to the struggle for LGBTQ rights is WILDLY OFFENSIVE, mostly because it allows for comparison of oppressions. WHO THE FUCK CARES? OPPRESSION IS OPPRESSION. Chris Rock once did a skit about the Triangle Trade & Slavery vs. the Holocaust, and pretty much got it right: comparing pain and suffering is sick, and diminishes the past histories of ALL SIDES INVOLVED.
– The benefits that state-sanctioned marriage comes with should be extended to all people, whether they’re married or not. Unless you’re not going to be satisfied until all people can visit loved ones in the hospital, or execute a loved ones’ will, or get good health care, then quite honestly, you’re not working for human rights. You’re working for the rights of bourgeois gay men and women to continue being bourgeois and gay.
– I remain dumbfounded as to why people are still outraged over DODT. Why in the fuck would anyone fight to join the most oppressive military-industrial complex in the world? Equality is not the same thing as assimilation into an increasingly militaristic, sick world.
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
Who’s Chris Rock?
rshell45
I am stunned. I wasn’t aware that I hadn’t waited long enough, or paid enough dues for the brouhaha over gay marriage. This is my opinion…..I don’t care so much about a piece of paper stating that my marriage is recognized AS LONG as my guaranteed rights as a United States citizen–born and raised. I just want to be treated as well as other folks. I firmly believe that this is just not too much to ask. It was stated above that discrimination is never good. It isn’t.
Although Stonewall happened 114 years after the Civil War, I am not willing to wait that long to have my rights to be recognized.
For those of you out there doing the “Lord’s Work,” please keep in mind that name-calling and signs with hateful statements really are not all that Christian like. We, as citizens of this country are given rights in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that we all receive on the day of our birth.
And, if you believe that if I marry another man and it will destroy your perfect little family in some reason, I have only this to say…..”If my marriage causes yours to fail, it was failing long before I decided to take the plunge…..
Lee
@Kaydeez:
But why should you HAVE to hide the fact that you’re gay?
Bottom line is that the majority should not be able to vote on the rights of the minority. Same sex marriage isn’t just about homosexuality, it’s about equal treatment and giving everyone the same opportunity.
This is represented in the gay flag.
Dirty Ole Man
Once again I have to shake my head at the manufactured
outrage I’m seeing by most gay people. I mean really, if you’re
so pissed at President Obama, then join the Republicans and their crusade to divide and destroy this country.
We were IGNORED by the BUSH administration for 8 damn years! and now you’re ageshit mad at Obama after he’s been in office for just one year? Really? LOL
Here’s a solution for ya: Join the LOG CABIN PUKES and
shut the fuck up! If you’ll are just that blind were as you
cannot see what we have in Obama, then I don’t want you on my side! And neither does Obama!
1EqualityUSA
Obama better start showing signs of life then. Kicking off his term with Pastor Numb-nuts Warren was the forerunner for me. That letter written to defend DOMA was another huge disappointment. If the Democrats cannot make a move for equality, then there’s reason to consider alternatives. Save the Supreme Court appointees, I wouldn’t mind seeing the Democrats suffer for their lack of concern on our behalf. They need to bleed over this. Justice delayed is justice denied.
tikihead
@NoDoubleStandards: Well said.
Arkano18
I didn’t know that civil rights were supposed to be earned.
I thought -as many other- that civil rights were the rights we had for being civilians. You know, all that thing that has to do with being born in a free country and stuff.
I don’t think that comparing 2 different circumstances is even valid, but to say that we haven’t earned -the word still hammers my mind- our civil rights… is just bigotry.
We can have thousands of organizations. We might gather thousands of proud LGBTQ folks. We can get support from politicians, celebrities and the regular people.
BUT WITH SELF-RIGHTEOUS BIGOTS LIKE DAVID KAUFMAN ON OUR SIDE, WE’RE NOT GETTING ANYWHERE!
linkinbarby
KK
Brian NJ
Hey Kaufman, you can’t “earn” something that you already possess. “They are endowed by their creator with certain INALIENABLE rights.” See anything in there about having to earn your civil rights??? WHY???? Because civil rights are rights, and do NOT HAVE TO BE EARNED. Everyone gets equality, and it is never, ever earned.
Chitown Kev
@Cassandra:
But you’re saying that people like myself are simply moles and I do take offense to that.
Oh, and crazy lady, you DO NOT want to go home with that soldier either.
Chitown Kev
@NoDefinition:
“- I remain dumbfounded as to why people are still outraged over DODT.”
Coming from a family where all the men (save myself) joined the military for various reasons, military service is considered by some to be 1) a way out of their circumstances and 2) an expression of patriotism. Gay people are no different in that regard nor should they be.
Bob
Have you ever considered that the gay community is simply narcissistic? Think about it.
1EqualityUSA
Diagnostic Features:
Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance, need for admiration, extreme self-involvement, and lack of empathy for others. Individuals with this disorder are usually arrogantly self-assured and confident. They expect to be noticed as superior. Many highly successful individuals might be considered narcissistic. However, this disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and very disabling or distressing.
Complications:
Vulnerability in self-esteem makes individuals with this disorder very sensitive to criticism or defeat. Although they may not show it outwardly, criticism may haunt these individuals these individuals and may leave them feeling humiliated, degraded, hollow, and empty. They may react with disdain, rage, or defiant counterattack. Their social life is often impaired due to problems derived from entitlement, the need for admiration, and the relative disregard for the sensitivities of others. Though their excessive ambition and confidence may lead to high achievement; performance may be disrupted due to intolerance of criticism or defeat. Sometimes vocational functioning can be very low, reflecting an unwillingness to take a risk in competitive or other situations in which defeat is possible. Individuals with this disorder have special difficulties adjusting to growing old and losing their former ?superiority?.
Comorbidity:
In this disorder, sustained feelings of shame or humiliation and the attendant self-criticism may be associated with social withdrawal, depressed mood, and Dysthymic or Major Depressive Disorder. In contrast, sustained periods of grandiosity may be associated with a hypomanic mood. Anorexia Nervosa, Substance-Related Disorders (especially related to cocaine), and other Personality Disorders (especially Histrionic, Borderline, Antisocial, and Paranoid) frequently co-occur with this disorder.
Associated Laboratory Findings:
No laboratory test has been found to be diagnostic of this disorder.
Prevalence:
The prevalence of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is less than 1% of the general population. It is seen in 2% to 16% of psychiatric outpatients. This disorder is more frequent in males (50% to 75%) than females.
Course:
Narcissistic traits are very common in adolescents, but most adolescents grow out of this behavior. Unfortunately, for some, this narcissistic behavior persists and intensifies into adulthood; thus they become diagnosed with this disorder.
asa1973
@Cassandra: I’m sorry, I find your comments just as disgusting as Kaufman’s. I am black and gay. I AM A PART OF THE GLBTQ COMMUNITY. I HAVE been fighting alongside you. REALIZE, sister, that as marginalized as we in the GLBTQ community feel in greater society, there are many within the GLBTQ community who feel just as marginalized in that community.
Do you realize how many GLBTQ organizations exist in this country that are run by and consist primarily of people of color? There are so many other issues they face…and they are fighting hard as well. I think we should come together and dialogue and learn from one another. But – just as it makes my blood boil to hear folks in the African American community to say that queers are either not a part of their community or are ruining it – I get deeply offended when folks in the GLBTQ community assert that it has no room for people of color.
You’re just as disgusting as Kaufman, and as long as there are people who continue to think like you, we will never get the rights we deserve.
geoffrey
I can quote you the gay civil rights movement… going back to Juvenal (Satire 6). That’s the peribomius and that’s 2000 years. That’s not anything the black civil rights movement can say about itself, by the way. And this is also a movement that’s… spanning the face of the earth.
linkinbarby
This is all tiresome to be honest.
Marriage is a privilege not a right….1
Whether you like it or not it this is an institution that, for as long as civilised society has roamed the earth, has been for Mr and Mrs. Now you want to redefine it to mean Mr and Mr.Hell yes, people will be pissed. Hell yes, people will fight you every which way to stop it. This is where the battle begins and the fighters get seperated from the losers. I personally dont see it as a right. But i understand and want everyone to be able to do it if they wish.
BTW the Prop 8 trial is very interesting. No really, i ve learned so much from the anti Prop 8 side. Tres impressed. However its not enough. I mean its easy to bask in the glow of the trial. But the prop Prop 8 players are very smart.
1. They have exposed Judge Walker as a biased judge to the supreme court and the supremes have listened. That is not good. Not at all. In the frenzy to fight for gay rights, we should be careful to not give ammunition to the haters. Well we have given them one. A very good one. The pro 8 side are playing this to all who will listen and people are listening.
2. The hate tweets and mails are coming from the anti 8 side are embarassing.SHOCK! Why are we still doing this? I can never understand. Hate should not beget hate. People have a right to fight for their opinions, is that not what the point of all this is? Calling everyone who does not agree with u a bigot is not how to win this. Animosity is being created and no hearts are being changed. Just because the bad guys do it does not make it okay for us too.
3. Kaufman has a point. We need to support the dems. They are not looking good folks butwhether we like it or not we need them. Repubs hate us and cannot be bothered with us and they are getting their courage back . We need to open our emails and letters and kick Obama awake. The guy has slept but he’s our best ally right now. I really believe he can make a difference. Believe in him. Pray for him.
My advice may not be heeded. hell you will probably tell me all the usual about how being complacent has not gotten anywhere. But the bad guys have the power to make lives hell for us all and we need to remember who our friends are.
Chitown Kev
@geoffrey:
Actually, I would go back to a certain prostitution trial in Athens…can’t remember the rent boy’s name off of the top of my head.
yes, there have been actions by “gay” individuals throughout the centuries (Edward II, anyone), I am talking about in the context as a community.
It’s not a competition with the black community at all and I wish that both groups would stop presenting it that way.
Chitown Kev
“As a consequence, though prostitution was legal, it was still socially shameful. It was generally the domain of slaves or, more generally, non-citizens. In Athens, for a citizen, it had significant political consequences, such as the atimia (??????); loss of public civil rights. This is demonstrated in The Prosecution of Timarkhos: Aeschines is accused by Timarkhos; to defend himself, Aeschines accuses his accuser of having been a prostitute in his youth. Consequentially, Timarkhos is stripped of civil rights; one of these rights being the ability to file charges against someone. Conversely, prostituting an adolescent, or offering him money for favours, was strictly forbidden as it could lead to the youth’s future loss of legal status.
The Greek reasoning is explained by Aeschines (stanza 29), as he cites the dokimasia (?????????): the citizen who prostituted himself (????????????? / peporneuménos) or causes himself to be so maintained (????????? / h?tair?kós) is deprived of making public statements because “he who has sold his own body for the pleasure of others (??’ ?????, ep’ hubris) would not hesitate to sell the interests of the community as a whole”. According to Polybius (XII, 15, 1), the accusations of Timaeus against Agathocles reprise the same theme: a prostitute is someone who abdicates their own dignity for the desires of another, “a common prostitute (?????? ?????? / koinòn pórnon) available to the most dissolute, a jackdaw[24], a buzzard [25] presenting his behind to whoever wants it.”
here it is. Technically, this has more to do with prostitution than being “gay”, per se, but he was a young man who tricked with older men and he was being denied his CITIZENSHIP rights. Therefore, I do call this the oldest “gay” civil rights action that I’ve ever seen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_ancient_Greece
Jaroslaw
When a lawyer prepares for a case, he/she studies all kinds of decisions that relate to that case; directly, indirectly, similar or maybe it only has one point in common.
My point is how can one NOT compare various struggles? The fact that any other oppressed group is offended by comparisons makes me wonder if they don’t feel their superior to Gays. Or they just don’t like Gay people?
And yes, I completely agree that people of color have generally been treated horribly in this country at various times in history and sometimes even now.
But we really aren’t going to get anywhere fighting with each other.
Chitown Kev
@Jaroslaw:
The fact that any other oppressed group is offended by comparisons makes me wonder if they don’t feel their superior to Gays. Or they just don’t like Gay people?
Oh, I catch straight black folks at it all the time and I call them out on it. Includong members of my own family (ans I am estranged from some members of that family).
That’s why Cassandra’s comments are so very offensive to me. But so are Kaufman’s.
Whatever
I agree with him. And all this thread proves is that gays love the oppression narrative. Well, it loses its power and becomes a stale caricature when you have to cite some obscure Greek and Roman shit that only some Ph.D classicist has heard of.
Landon Bryce
Of course, everything that has happened to black people has happened to gay people. Because there were gay slaves. Gay people lost their dignity under Jim Crow laws because they were also black. Gay people still suffer from racial discrimination every day.
I think it is presumptuous of gay people to think that being gay gives us any idea of what it is like being black. It is equally presumptuous for heterosexual blacks to think they understand the challenges faced by gay people.
Black gay people make a crucial error, I think, when they assume that there is a more cohesive white gay culture from which they are excluded. I’m not saying that white gays aren’t just as racist as other white people, but I get the idea that many black gay people assume that if they were white the gay community would be as welcoming to them as the black community is to straight people.
And I don’t think that’s the case. The gay community is bitchy to everyone. Most of the descriptions I read of supposedly racist behavior from white gays basically come down to a variation of looksism. In bars, gay men are rude to people they don’t want to sleep with.
Whatever
“Most of the descriptions I read of supposedly racist behavior from white gays basically come down to a variation of looksism.’
Call this gay white privilege or whatever. But there are people like who think that when gay people of color call out white gay gays for their racism, it’s because the white gays don’t what to sleep when them. How insulting and nearisighted.
The aftermath of prop 8 unleashed vicious racism directed toward the AA community from the gay community. I have Asian and black friends who overhear people at clubs and gay venues remarking, “why are there so many of Asian/blacks/people of color here?” But you’re right, it all boils down to sleeping preference.
Chitown Kev
@Whatever:
Uh, I’m black, sweetie and I actually studied that case. I could tell you about racism in classical antiquity too, if you wish.
I just didn’t think that citing the Rush Limbaugh of the ancient world (and that’s who Juvenal was, Satire 15 gives you a good account of his racism, but Juvenal hated EVERYBODY) is anything that anyone versed in ancient Greek and Roman law (and I know a little bit about that!) would do.
Landon Bryce
Umm—- “Why are there so many fat people here?”
“They call this place The Glass Coffin because everyone here is on death’s door.”
“Boy, the trolls are out in force tonight!”
“The fashion police need to come in here with Uzis”
“This is a bear bar– get the fucking twinks out.”
No, it doesn’t all boil down to sleeping preferences. I hate Dan Savage in part because of the work he did to encourage racist reactions in white gays in wake of Prop 8. Gay is not the new Black.
But– most people get slagged on in gay bars. I don’t approve of it. I don’t do it. I call people on it and they decide I’m a preachy goody-goody. And I don’t take seriously anyone who bitches about how someone else is both racist and ugly.
Chitown Kev
@Whatever:
“some obscure Greek and Roman shit that only some Ph.D classicist has heard of.”
…see, I do have SOME passing privileges, actually. I guess.
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
Me and my rainbow gathering of multiracial, cross-generational, same-gender loving friends are stuck under this really heavy bus. I’m actually using hand-sign gestures because the really heavy tyre is on my throat and blocking my breathing passage. Please, for the sake of the children, Move That Bus!
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
Me and my rainbow gathering of multiracial, cross-generational, same-gender loving friends are stuck under this really heavy bus. I’m actually using hand-sign gestures because the really heavy tire is on my throat and blocking my breathing passage. Please, for the sake of the children, Move That Bus!
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
A lot of what goes on in gay bars (and bathhouses) is lookism. Racism can be a component as well.
The thing is, I don’t quite fit the typical racist “Mandingo” stereotype. I’m more of the nerdy type. Now I don’t go to bars much for a couple of good reasons but when I do, sure I hear both lookism and racist comments (or people that are not attracted to me because I don’t fit the stereotypical “Mandingo” image…then again some are attracted to my nerdy image…)
On Savage, eh, sometimes I like him and sometimes I don’t but I don’t dismiss the totality of anyone’s views simply because of (in Savage’s case) the reaction to Prop 8 that he encouraged. (Just as I haven’t dismissed the totally of Kaufman’s view in this highly uneven and largely incoherent piece of gay-baiting tripe.)
Mike K
I’ve noticed so many black people go through life with a huge chip on thier shoulder. You know sometimes people don’t like you because your an asshole and it has nothing to do with your race. I’ve also noticed that nothing is ever thier fault. Didn’t get that job-racism, someone doesn’t like you-racism. Frankly I’m sick of hearing about the “black community” in every discussion on gay civil rights. If your unhappy with your life do something about it. Stop whining that it’s every one elses fault but yours. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU!
asa1973
@Mike K: I agree, somewhat. It’s an interesting observation you make. Now, just play a little game with me. Replace the words “black” with “gay”, “race” with “sexuality,” and “racism” with “homophobia.” Then imagine a straight person delivering your eloquent message back to you. Yeah. That’s pretty much how it feels. In case you don’t understand, let me show you:
I’ve noticed so many “gay” people go through life with a huge chip on thier shoulder. You know sometimes people don’t like you because your an asshole and it has nothing to do with your “sexuality.” I’ve also noticed that nothing is ever thier fault. Didn’t get that job-“homophobia,” someone doesn’t like you-“homophobia.” Frankly I’m sick of hearing about the “gay community” in every discussion on civil rights. If your unhappy with your life do something about it. Stop whining that it’s every one elses fault but yours. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU!
The unfortunate thing is, we’re all pretty much on the same page about civil rights for GLBTQs. We just disagree on the most effective way to achieve them. We all could stand to look inward and assess what is working and what is holding us back. And we all could stand to reach out to those who are different from us, be quiet, listen to their perspectives, then try to join forces with them in a way that will produce the best outcome. It’s truly the only way we’re going to get what we want. The conversations that evolve from these threads should be had in person. GLBT organizations should continue band together with other organizations and talk this stuff out so we can get unite and conquer.
Right now, if straight, non-supporters of GLBT issues were to read this thread, they’d celebrate the fact that the F**gots were at one anothers’ throats.
1EqualityUSA
It takes many, many generations to heal from this kind of thing. Gays will be experiencing the same observations 100 years from now. This kind of pain doesn’t heal over night.
Chitown Kev
@Mike K:
You have obviously never experienced racism in this country…you’re damn right that I will bitch about that…
But I want to go somewhere else…
“endless take-downs of the Black church.”
Need some claification on this point.
Is Kaufman saying that the black church should never be attacked by LGBT people? He’s full of shit on that account.
I see just as many attacks on the blogs on the Mormon. Catholic, and evangelical churches for their involvement in denying gay civil rights. Some “black churches” have joined with these churches in fighting GLBT equality. Now, no, the “black church” has not put up the money for the cause that the aforementioned churches have BUT they have rallied their congregants. And I know very well that the “black church” is probably the primary site for political organizing in the black community.
So, no, “the black church” should by no means get a free pass. Under any democratic Administration and Dem Congress, the “black church” is going to have more political power. But having that political power also means that you take the slings and arrows of politics, especially when outright bigotry is endorsed.
Personally, I think that there needs to be more secular organizations in the black community to decrease the overtly political nature of the black church.
Now, the response should be proportional; in fact, “the black church” is not putting in the money that other predominately “white churches” are and they are not running the bigoted advertising campaigns.
And of course, “the black church” is not monolithic either. There are black churches that do support full GLBT equality, including marriage.
Mike K
Please with that “reaching out crap”. These things should and are being decided in court. I don’t give a fuck what anyone’s opinion of my life is. It just seems that every discussion of gay civil rights devolves into some discussion about “the black community”, and how we haven’t suffered enough. Everything has to be about them. Well sorry my civil rights have nothing whatever to do with the “black community” and I don’t give a shit what they or anyone else thinks.
asa1973
@Mike K: A wise man once said:
“If your unhappy with your life do something about it. Stop whining that it’s every one elses fault but yours. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU!”
Mike K
asa1973 your right I don’t experience that. The reason is that I don’t always assume that people will treat me differently because I’m gay. You assume they will and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I don’t don’t interrupt discussions about black civil rights with “no, no no I’ve suffered more it’s all about me”!
Mike K
Sorry but I’m sick to death of this shit. We’ve been poisoned by having our rights voted on. It’s like some sort of Stockholm syndrome. Gay people “reaching out” which means essentially going door to door begging, “can I have civil rights pretty please”? Fuck that! No one get’s to have an opinion on my rights. If your not gay SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!
rshell45
@NoDoubleStandards: Love your statement. IT fits into what I am trying to say….you were better at it than my post. Thank you.
asa1973
@Mike K: And believe it or not, neither do I. If you knew me, you’d know I don’t assume people will treat me differently because I’m black or gay. But, you know what, sometimes they do anyway. I’ve lived long enough to be able to tell – most of the time – when I am being treated a certain way because of me (my actions or personality) or because of my sexuality or race. You’d also quickly learn that I get along with just about everybody, and am extremely hard on myself. So when unfortunate things happen to me – I don’t get the job I wanted or someone doesn’t like me – I almost always blame myself first. But that’s just me. Don’t assume that I’m the person you think I am.
Oh…but when a security guard at a department store immediately follows me upon my entry into the establishment and ignores other customers the entire time I am shopping, I know it’s not about me. It’s about my race. When I place my hand tenderly on my parner’s knee on the subway, and a guy looks at me in disgust, I know it’s not about me. It’s about my sexuality. But, truly, we digress…
We all deserve the same civil rights. Hopefully the courts will decide in our favor. When the day comes when we are all recognized as equal under the law, will we be able to all get along then?
In my original post, the only point I was trying to drive home was that LGBT people of color have an intersting perpective and might be able to help craft messages more effectively in some of the battles in our fight for equality. Sometimes – like it or not – we are better at communicating why civil rights does not belong to the black community anymore than it belongs to the LGBT community any more than it belongs to women. They belong to everyone. Equally. Regardless of history.
Anyway, your anger at the “black community” won’t hinder my ability and drive to continue fighting.
B Damion
Lol…I love this site. Only us gays know how to have a really cool bitch fight. I love being Black n Gay yyyahhhhhh!!!…
Mike K
Probably I would turn to that security guard and say “just what the fuck do you think your doing” and create a huge spectacle. Usually people pull that crap because they think they can. There’s a lot of fun to be had in situations like that. Call people on their bullshit don’t stew about it and let it ruin you day. Make it their problem and not yours because that’s what it is. Their problem.
asa1973
@B Damion: LOL!
asa1973
@Mike K: I will honestly try that next time.
Chapeau
What is offensive is to see anyone or a group of people who know or have experienced discrimination to stand in the way and actively campaign against the Right of others to achieve what they themselves suffered and fought for — first class treatment under the law!! I’m not sure if it is more offensive that to this guy there is a time-table to Justice or that he is so powerfully ignorant of the message espoused by MLK and the actual Leaders of the Civil Rights movement. STFU.
DEREK WASHINGTON
I’m Black & Gay. I STRONGLY advocate that the LGBT Civil Rights movement is EXACTLY the same as the Civil Rights movement of the 60’s.
No one group “owns” Civil Rights exclusively, we as Americans, ALL “own” Civil Rights.
Bayard Rustin was a Black Gay man and he plotted and planned the civil rights movement and trained MLK. If I can’t inherit and run with his legacy of Civil Rights activism in my own work as an activist then no other Black man can either. Especially not a straight one. People who say Gays can’t say it’s the same should just say what they truly mean, “White Gays can’t..”. That is not only racist in reverse, but, ignorant of history.
Blacks got our rights fight theories and tactics from Ghandi, an Indian. Should we hand it back and say, “Oops, my bad, I co-opted your shit and I had no right to do that cause that was your shit!” ?
Bitch. Please.
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
Derek, we LOVE you! Bayard Rustin deserves props, too! Bravo!
…and here’s your free toaster oven. (Inside Gay Joke!)
romeo
Derek, you are too cool. Love to hear more from you.
Chitown Kev
@DEREK WASHINGTON:
Good to see you here, Derek, although we disagree slightly on the “it’s exactly the same” meme (I actually view it as more of a continuum of the civil rights movement)…but essentially, I’m just a bit pedantic about the details of the whole thing