Mormon Church Email Tells Illinois Followers to Fight Civil Unions Bill

3021716264_53742f175fA rare glimpse into the organized efforts of the Church of Latter Day Saints to force their religious beliefs to become civil law, check out this email sent out to church members containing lies about marriage equality laws as well as a call for church members to contact their state representatives and urge them to vote against the current civil unions bill on the docket in the Illinois legislature. It shows just how efficient a machine the Mormon Church can be. The email, erroneous details and all, required official church sanctioning before being sent out to all members, according to one report. Read it after the jump:

From: Kristy Combs
Date: March 3, 2009 12:27:59 PM CST
Subject: Civil Union bill scheduled for a hearing Thursday – calls needed

This message has been authorized for sending by Bishop Church.
The Civil Union Bill (HB 2234) has been scheduled for a hearing in the Youth and Family Committee this week on Thursday, March 5, 2009 at 9:00 a.m. in Springfield. If the bill is voted out of committee, it becomes eligible for a vote before the full Illinois House of Representatives. This bill will legalize civil unions in the state of Illinois, and will treat such civil unions with the same legal obligations, responsibilities, protections and benefits as are afforded within marriage. In other words, civil unions will be different in name only from marriage. As has already been seen in Massachusetts, this will empower the public schools to begin teaching this lifestyle to our young children regardless of parental requests otherwise. It will also create grounds for rewriting all social mores; the current push in Massachusetts is to recognize and legalize all transgender rights (An individual in Massachusetts can now change their drivers license to the gender they believe themselves to be, regardless of actual gender, which means that confused men and women are now legally entering one another’s bathrooms and locker rooms. What kind of a safety issue is this for our children?). Furthermore, while the bill legalizes civil unions, it will be used in the courts to show discrimination and will ultimately lead to court mandated same-sex marriages.

To help defeat this bill, please call your state representative and state senator and ask that they support traditional marriage and vote against the civil unions bill. If you are unsure who your legislators are, please see the link at the end of this email.

Also, please take a moment and call the following members of the Youth and Family Committee to encourage them to vote no on this bill. We need 4 votes to keep it from passing out of the committee. And – as always, please pass this on to all who believe in protecting our families and our children. If you are interested in attending the hearing, it will be held on Thursday, March 5th at 9:00 a.m. in Springfield in Room 122B of the Capitol Building (I can give you directions to the Capitol Building if needed).

Members of the Youth and Family Committee:
Rep. Greg Harris (D-Chicago) (Greg Harris is also the sponsor of this bill, but he needs to hear your opposition to this bill)

Rep. LaShawn K. Ford (D-Chicago)

Rep. Mike Fortner (R-West Chicago)
Republican Spokesperson

Rep. William D. Burns (D-Chicago)

Rep. Michael P. McAuliffe (R-Chicago)

Rep. Al Riley (D-Matteson)

Rep. Dave Winters (R-Rockford)

Directions for identifying your legislators:
You can use the following link to identify your state legislators and their contact information: DistrictLocator/ SelectSearchType.aspx? NavLink=1 (and enter your 9 digit zip code). If this link doesn’t work, you can use the general link and then click on ” legislator lookup” near the bottom of the page, then click on “by zip+4?. Type in your zip code, and you’ll see a list of your legislators. You want your state senator and state representative as they will be the ones voting on the bill.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Sister Combs.

Get Queerty Daily

Subscribe to Queerty for a daily dose of #civilunions #illinois #mormons stories and more


  • Chitown Kev

    The Mormon Temple is at 4151 W. Lake Avenue in Glenview, Il. and I have to go to one of my community meetings tonight. I want to see what we can do as far as a protest is concerned.

    I know exactly where this is, we do not want these people and their poisonous shit of a racist bigoted religion here in Illinois.

  • Jason

    Love your fellow man – what true Christians these Mor(m)ons be!

  • Alan

    Anyone know where I can move so I don’t have to deal with Mormons anymore. It seems they are screwing with everyone these days. HELP…I’m in Utah! :)

  • Chino

    If I could make one suggestion …

    Please don’t protest at Mormon Temples. You won’t find more than a handful of Mormons there at any given time, and 90% of them will be over 65 – not exactly a key demo.

    If you’re in Illinois (or elsewhere), pls take advantage of:

    That URL will help direct you to the nearest Mormon chapel (not temple) in your area. Grab a few friends and go protest in front of a Mormon chapel some Sunday morning.

    Granted, that doesn’t help much with the current Illinois situation, with its March 5th deadline looming, but going forward, c’mon, get a clue, Mormons attend a 3-hour block of services every Sunday at their chapels … show up and make an impression.

    Hanging outside Mormon temples taunting security guards is not the best way forward.

    That said, this is not me dissin’ previous Mormon temple protests. It’s all good and that had to happen. My only point is that it’s now time to think about taking it local and personal by showing up at a building that actually has sentient beings inside.

  • Chitown Kev

    Thanks Chino, I have all the Chicago addresses that I need now.

  • JJ

    this is incredible. i thought the mormon church just had issues with calling same-sex unions “marriage” and did not care much for civil unions. this is the kind of discimination and hate that makes the mormon church deserving of any wrath brought on to it by angry protestors.

  • blake


    The LDS Church is anti-gay. Period. If you are gay and Mormon you can be excommunicated from the Mormon Church. Sure, there are non-homophobic Mormons. However, Church policy is anti-gay.

    Until the late 1970s, the Church was also anti-black. If you had a trace of black blood, you were black and damned. The Church changed its policies after its lawyers explained that the Church’s subsidiaries, like Brigham Young University, could lose federal benefits for discriminating based on race. Miraculously, a Church Elder had a vision that blacks and other non-whites were suddenly fully human.

    Use “the Google” for more fun facts on Mormons and racism. In particular, look up their beliefs about Native Americans if you want a look at condescension and white supremacy in action.

  • Jerem

    No, Google is not the right source for so-called “fun facts” about Mormonism. There are as many people that are willing to lie and distort the truth as their is honest discourse.

    And, just so you know Blake, it was never Mormon doctrine that black people were damned. The Mormon record on race is not great, but you’re making it much worse than it is. And before you trot out isolated quotes from General Authorities, you should realize, if you don’t already, that just because a church leader said something once doesn’t mean that that’s what the church teaches. It means that’s what one leader taught on one day. For a balanced look at the racial doctrines and policies of Latter-Day Saints go here:

  • Jeremy

    Also, I just wanted to add that I am quite embarrassed by the email in this post. I really hope it was not authorized through official channels.

    That said, whoever said this should be equally embarrassed:

    “I know exactly where this is, we do not want these people and their poisonous shit of a racist bigoted religion here in Illinois.”

    I hope he understands the irony of calling for Mormons to leave Illinois. It wouldn’t be the first time we were either asked or forced out of the state. In this case, if you were to be consistent, you would have to call for Catholics and Evangelicals to leave the state, since their stance on gay marriage and civil unions is identical.

  • strumpetwindsock


    I was going to mention events of 150 years ago myself.
    I think Abe Lincoln (senator?) refered to the mormon situation as being like a big stone in your field that you had to plough around until you had time to deal with it.

    And while no, it isn’t cool to drive out religions, one would think the Mormon Church would have had enough experience of discrimination to think twice about doing the same thing to others.

    I think a lot of people let themselves be drawn into a seige mentality (on all sides of this issue). It doesn’t help anyone. Best to realize we are all in the same lifeboat and sooner or later we have to grow up and learn that no one is leaving.

  • strumpetwindsock

    And p.s.
    While I am opposed to driving people out, I am all for letting people know we are pissed off, and protesting is a valid way to do that.

    Don’t forget to hit the Stake Centres. That’s where the church offices and the missionaries work out of.

  • Chitown Kev


    What interest have the Mormons ever expressed in anything in Illinois? Leave me and my state alone, I will leave you alone to worship in peace.

    At least the Catholic Church and Evangelicals in Illinois will tell you exactly where they are coming from and will go on the record. Not all this sneaky shit.

  • Chitown Kev

    not addressed at you strumpet, of course, addressed at the magic undie interloper…

    And no, I am not for driving them out either.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    Jeremy is talking about the fact that Mormons founded the city of Carthage, after being driven to Illinois from further east. Joseph Smith was killed in Illinois, and after events in your state they decided to head to the far west.

    It’s a very interesting part of your history, actually, and well-worth reading about. Not only did they freak out their neighbours because of their growing economic and voting power, they pissed off the local Masonic Lodges by borrowing and altering their ceremonies. As I mentioned, all of this was going on during an economic downturn, during the time Abraham Lincoln first entered politics.

    I’m not saying that events back then were 100 percent the fault of the Mormons, but it is a very interesting example of a clash in cultures and values, and dealing with people who are different than you.

  • Jeremy

    “What interest have the Mormons ever expressed in anything in Illinois? Leave me and my state alone, I will leave you alone to worship in peace.”

    I don’t understand. The Mormons in Illinois, I assume, are quite interested in what’s going on in Illinois. The Mormons in Illinois have just as much a right to call Illinois their state as you do. You seem to view all Mormons as evil outsiders, even those that may have been in Illinois for generations.

    “At least the Catholic Church and Evangelicals in Illinois will tell you exactly where they are coming from and will go on the record. Not all this sneaky shit.”

    The Mormon church has been completely open about its opposition to gay marriage. You’re just running away from the full implications of your rhetoric. At least be consistent and call for all the people with the same position to leave the state.

    “While I am opposed to driving people out, I am all for letting people know we are pissed off, and protesting is a valid way to do that.”

    I agree that it’s legitimate as long as protests are peaceful and respectful. I have no problem with protests like that. The only problem is that you might have some people like Chitown Kev show up with a sign that says “LEAVE ILLINOIS!”

    “not addressed at you strumpet, of course, addressed at the magic undie interloper…”

    Cool. Cool. I wonder if you’d feel equally comfortable with calling a Jewish person a “yarmaluke’d interloper.” BTW, “Magic undies” is a term invented by anti-Mormons. Mormons don’t believe the garment is magic, just that they provide a spiritual protection.

  • Chitown Kev

    Now that I didn’t know but then again I was raised in Michigan and not Illinois (lived here for about 20 years). I am going to read up on that, thanks. I am a big history buff.

  • Chitown Kev


    after the shit y’all pulled in California against my gay brothers and sisters, yes, that is the way I view the Mormons who spread lies about my people. Gay Mormons get a pass (though that seems like an oxymoron to me).

  • Jeremy

    “I’m not saying that events back then were 100 percent the fault of the Mormons, but it is a very interesting example of a clash in cultures and values, and dealing with people who are different than you.”

    Wow, given that we were forcibly driven out, this is a little like saying to the family of a murder victim “I’m not saying it’s 100 percent your dad’s fault that he was killed, but he really did some things to piss off the guy that killed him.”

  • b Jones

    You guys are all hilarious. Who is Kristy Combs? Who is “Bishop Church”? Where in the email does it even refer to the Mormon Church, or say it is authorized by the church?

    It sound like someone is sensationalizting a non-story.

  • Jeremy

    “after the shit y’all pulled in California against my gay brothers and sisters, yes, that is the way I view the Mormons who spread lies about my people.”

    Well, then maybe you can understand why I’m upset when people like you tell my people that they shouldn’t even live in the same state as you. You aren’t the first person I’ve encountered to suggest such a thing.

    Maybe the best approach to all of this is to leave the personal attacks out of this. Fight for gay marriage, but refrain from such hateful rhetoric as calling for an entire group to leave your state. I have extended similar invitations to Mormons on the internet when their rhetoric goes too far.

  • herbert wassinger

    email sister combs at [email protected] !!!!!

    anybody have her phone #?

  • strumpetwindsock

    Jeremy,I meant what I said. No, a lot of the tactics used against the Mormons were neither fair nor legal, but the Mormons were not entirely blameless either; they did quite a few things to piss off and freak out their neighbours.

    For one thing, when Joseph Smith was murdered he was in jail because he broke up a newspaper that had dared to print information unflattering to him.

    Don’t take my word for it. Read your history.

    As a matter of fact the Mormons’ dream of empire and mistrust of outsiders continued when they got to Utah, which is part of the reason why the U.S. government dealt so harshly with them and forced them under federal control.

    And my point is not to say that anyone should be driven out. My point is that we should avoid going down that road again. My experience with Mormon Church policy is that they are quite stringent about not getting involved in politics. I don’t know why they have decided to break with this, but it is a move that will come back and bite them in the ass.

    They don’t like same-sex marriage? Well they don’t have to practice it.

  • Jeremy

    “Jeremy,I meant what I said. No, a lot of the tactics used against the Mormons were neither fair nor legal, but the Mormons were not entirely blameless either; they did quite a few things to piss off and freak out their neighbours.”

    True. I guess I misinterpreted what you said. Usually when someone says that someone isn’t 100 percent to blame, the implication is that there were maybe 80 percent to blame. I would have to strongly disagree with that, but apparently that’s not what you meant, so sorry that I misunderstood.

    Yeah, I know the complete history in Nauvoo. There’s a little more to it than what you stated, but point taken.

    “They don’t like same-sex marriage? Well they don’t have to practice it.”

    I couldn’t agree with you more. I am equally bewildered at my church’s involvement on this issue.

  • strumpetwindsock

    Yes, I know I was greatly oversimplifying. And thanks for the correction. I meant Nauvoo, not Carthage.

    And I know there are probably quite a few Mormons who don’t think this is the right way to deal with this either.

  • Chitown Kev


    Yeah, I mean I have never known the Mormon Church to take an active role in Illinois politics (individual Mormons have, yes, and within the past 2 months at that). I’ve met a few Mormons and they seemed to be decent enough people.

    Then again, my bias is primarily against institutions as a whoe, especially religious institutions. And the idea that on the institutional level you want to impose your beliefs just….pisses me off.

    By the way, I am black, not that it’s important or anything, only that I would (and have) rail in the same way against the many AA churchs.

  • strumpetwindsock

    Actually, if you haven’t read “Under the Banner of Heaven” or
    “No Man Knows My History”, you should. I found them to be truly eye-opening.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    That’s true, it is mystifying. I remember, a long time ago when I attended a Mormon service, someone made an appeal for funds to oppose abortion.

    When he stepped down the branch president got up and told us all that he was out of line, and that church was no place to do any political organizing or fundraising of any kind. THey had a good long talk with him afterwards, too. This even though the church takes a strong stance against abortion.

    Then again, this was over 30 years ago, but still I don’t know why the church is taking such a high-profile hand in the issue now.

  • Jeremy

    “And the idea that on the institutional level you want to impose your beliefs just….pisses me off.”

    I can understand that. I’m right there with you, actually. The last thing I want to do is impose my beliefs on anyone. I take a little comfort in the fact that the LDS church doesn’t involve itself much in politics outside this issue (which, as I stated before, I don’t agree with.)

  • 33mhz

    There’s no more reason to acknowledge the religious “rights” of Mormons than there is to acknowledge the religious “rights” of Scientologists; they were both founded by fantasy writers as a cruel, self-aggrandizing prank on the gullible.

    Anything you can do to render them as politically impotent as the Westboro church is a boon to yourself, your nation, and the poor people hoodwinked by their ludicrous neonatal theology alike.

  • Jeremy

    Anyone who puts religious “rights” in quotes is clearly against the US constitution.

  • getreal

    I have to confess I don’t much about Mormonism other than what I have read in the paper or seen on Big Love (which is written by a gay couple FYI. I,m just confused why don’t they use their considerable resources to address the exploitation of women,children and teenagers in the polygamous culture. how about the 13 and 14 year old girls being forced to marry their uncles ( that was from a real court case in Utah). Can you imagine how many people could have been fed and clothed by the millions dollars they raised to pass Prop 8? How many people in this brutal economy could have been helped back on their feet? It boggles the mind.

  • 33mhz

    @Jeremy: You’re right, I was trolling.

    However, if the Mormon Church feels that it is appropriate to use the state as a weapon to dissolve legal protections for groups they don’t like, it’s impossible to argue that they should be immune from the same thing if enough people decide that they should be treated as a dangerous cult. Either they want rule by the majority or they want rule by the constitution; they can’t have it both ways.

  • strumpetwindsock


    Although I am generally opposed to organized religion myself, you’ll probably find out soon enough that there are a few people on here who feel the only good place for ANY religious person is under the blade of a guillotine.

    I wouldn’t let them rattle or offend you, but neither should you waste TOO much time trying to talk sense to them; I have already made that mistake. It is simply a waste of time.

    Good point, though.

  • Jeremy

    “I,m just confused why don’t they use their considerable resources to address the exploitation of women,children and teenagers in the polygamous culture.”

    Well, since the people that practice polygamy haven’t been a part of the LDS church for around 100 years, I don’t think it’s fair to ask the LDS church for help on this any more than you’d ask any other institution. It seems to me that the government is the better place to turn to on this than any particular church.

    I agree with your second point.

  • Jeremy

    @33mhz: It’s hard to find a flaw in that argument. It’s a good thing that my response led you to make the argument you actually wanted to make rather than the comment you made initially.

  • strumpetwindsock


    Just read your response, and anyone who can admit s/he overreacted is obviously not the kind of poster I was refering to.

    I apologize for misjudging you. I have obviously been in the trenches a bit too long. I have certainly heard enough rhetoric to last me a lifetime. But then again, we do live in tense times nowadays.

    Again… sorry.

  • Jeremy

    @strumpetwindsock: Yeah. It’s probably about time I bow out of this conversation anyway.

    It’s been fun, folks.

  • Chitown Kev


    By the way, this is kinda sorta my pt. of view also, Jeremy, it’s just that since Prop 8 the word “Mormon” word has a, “Slowly he turns, step by step, inch by inch,” effect on me.

  • Arch Stanton

    It’s sad to see anti-Mormon bigotry thinly disguised as pro-gay advocacy. Mormons are the only true pro-gay advocates because Mormons are the only ones who will tell gays the truth: They can change and they are welcome to ask for help from our church. Don’t despair. We can help.

    It is absurd to say that homosexuality is okay because Jesus never mentioned it. He never explicitly mentioned terrorism or drug addiction either. So I suppose we should say those things are okay too? Many people just want to justify their own behaviors so they say the most asinine things. Fortunately, we know the truth: PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIORS. Christ spoke for change. Do not believe misguided people who would tell you that change is not possible. That is simply not true.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:

    I hear you. I wonder if the Pope is jealous that he has been supplanted as “official bogeyman”?


    Nice talking with you Jeremy. Bye.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Arch Stanton:
    sigh… I was supposed to be getting some work done today.

    Arch, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Homosexuality is neither a crime (like terrorism), nor is it a sickness (like addiction), so it’s really none of your business what someone else decides to do.

    And as for the whole point of this thread, marriage law, there’s actually nothing in the bible or the book of mormon about that either.

    You’re quite welcome to practice your religion, but don’t imagine that you have the right to impose those beliefs on the law on the land.

  • Chitown Kev

    “Slowly he turns…”

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev: ROTFL

  • 33mhz

    @Arch Stanton: I lolled. For one thing, Mormons are HARDLY the only religious group to falsely claim that gays can change, or that this is even desirable to do in the first place.

    Secondly, morality is not a metaphysical score box that increments or decrements in response to the judgments of an invisible referee– for something to be immoral, it has to have actual negative consequences in the real world, and making the change-averse uncomfortable does not count as a negative consequence. Superstitions such as yours can only lead astray the people who are legitimately concerned about leading a good life.

  • larogan

    The above email looks like it came from a loose canon Ward Bishop or Stake President in Illinois not from Church General Authorities in Salt Lake City.

    What follows is the Church position stated by the LDS Newsroom,, on November 21, 2008. “The Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”

    Don’t judge all of us Mormon by the actions of one bigoted Bishop in Nauvoo. Some of us out here have gay family members and friends. We love and respect them as we would anyone else. We look forward to the day when society, including churches, change their point of view from negative to positive of our gay brothers and sisters.

  • Chitown Kev

    “step by step…”

  • getreal

    @Arch Stanton: Why are you asking people to change the way they were created by God? Would you give up your heterosexual status because people decided it was wrong? No you wouldn’t so don’t hypocritically ask people to give up their chance to the things that are human rights someone to grow old with and the chance to have a family. And please don’t hide behind religion I’m a Christian myself and have seen first hand homophobic people deliberately misquote the bible to gays to make their points. So don’t try that sh*it with me. It says in the bible we were ALL created in God’s image nothing you say can erase that. So if God’s created 10% of his children a certain way clearly he was onboard with it. What bothers me about people like you is that 20 years from now you will be swearing up and down to grandchildren that you had nothing against the gays. Just like all those people who supported segregation now smile in black people’s faces and pretend they didn’t.

  • strumpetwindsock

    I hear you, and appreciate your input.
    Of course, it’s that “traditional family” notion that is the sticking point.

    You know, in many ways I find Mormonism to be more advanced than many Christian denominations, on paper anyways.
    The regard you hold for free agency and personal testimony are truly forward thinking. That’s why I find it odd that many (not all) Mormons have a hard time accepting when others DO exercise that agency.

    Since marriage equality was settled in Canada several years ago this has been a virtual non-issue. There are a few cases of secular commissioners of oaths not doing their duty, but no one has tried to force any church clergy to go against their doctorine. No one has tried to marry his cat, and miraculously, the foundation of the family has not crumbled into dust. Even the most vocal opponents are quiet, because it is settled, and nothing has changed, except that some people who love each other are now able to have their unions legally sealed. It has not destroyed the family in any way at all.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Arch Stanton: Look at the little bigot trying to reframe the argument to suit his own stance. Isn’t it cute?

    The Mormons are pro-gay? Really? Because they tell us homos that we can change and become useful, breeding heteros? That’s your argument?

    I have to wonder what sort of inner perversion drives you people to care so much about what goes on in the bedrooms of others in the first place. The fact that you dogmatized neanderthals spend so much time and money on the issue tells me that no matter how pro-gay the LDS church tries to pretend it is, it’s nothing more than a front. Is lying okay by LDS guidelines?

    “The Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”

    Okay, now I got that directly from the LDS website. It can be found at:

    So, why didn’t they do anything for the Common Grounds Initiative in Utah, which would have granted us those very rights they claim they support? Were they lying when they said they supported those rights? Yup.

    You people want to make yourselves out to be the victims in this war, but you’re actually the victimizers.

    As far as your assertion that we can change and become straight goes…well, that’s another flat-out lie. Time and time again it has been shown that “ex-gay” programs do not work. Homosexuality is not even considered a mental illness anymore, and hasn’t been for many, many years. Any legitimate psychiatric professional would tell you without reservation that your “ex-gay” programs do more harm than good.

    But you aren’t interested in the truth, are you? You’re interested in trying to reshape reality to prop up your own misguided and destructive view of the Universe. You people, and those who agree with you, have blood on your hands.

    Every GLBT person who has perished at the hands of bashers…their blood is on your hands.

    Every GLBT kid who decides to commit suicide rather than live in a hateful and oppressive world…their blood is on your hands.

    Every family that has been torn apart by bigotry and hatred…their blood is on your hands.

    It’s certainly not p.c. to offer such sentiments, but I firmly believe that the world would be a better place without bigots like yourself in it. Until you learn to keep your primitive beliefs out of our households that will continue to be the truth.

    And the only reason you would come to one of our websites and post such despicable content in the first place is because you want to be railed against and harassed. It reinforces your fallacious idea that you are a victim. You can thank me later for feeding your persecution complex, scumbag.

  • strumpetwindsock

    p.s. I am honestly not trying to throw this in your face. What I mean is there is nothing to be threatened about. Sure this is a revolutionary change, but it takes nothing away from you at all, and it is only a change for the better.

  • getreal

    @vernonvanderbilt: WORD! I couldn’t have said it any better myself!

  • Ray

    The wording of the “e-mail” makes it clear that it’s either a hoax or from a loose cannon local member. The first line alone is ludicrous. If there really is a “Sister Combs”, she probably called her local Bishop (someone who serves only 200-400 members in a small area) and said, “Bishop, I want to send an e-mail to everyone about this bill. Is that OK?” He probably responded with something like, “Sister Combs, you can send any e-mail you want to send.” Then he probably muttered under his breath, “Why are you calling me about this? I’ve got no authority with that bill.”

    Seriously, people, this is bogus – pure and simple.

  • ShellyGirl

    Go Mormons! Kick Trash! No one can tell you to shut up. You have every right to be concerned with bills that are going to pass in your state. Gay bigots are just trying to silence you.

  • strumpetwindsock

    This in itself MAY be small, but there is still a big smoking gun with respect to the Proposition 8 campaign.

    If some Mormons are comcerned about an unfair backlash (and I do sympathize)… well they should be. Their church fucked up.

    So if this is indeed bogus, the perpetrators of the bigger assault would simply be hypocritical to try to distance themselves from this.

    Think of it as a good lesson that churches should not be getting involved in politics in the first place.

    If you are in the church and you feel unfairly maligned by this, well a good way to start mending fences is to let people know you think it was unfair to trample on gay people’s rights in the first place.

    After all, the main impact of this miscarriage is being felt by gay couples, not falsely-accused liberal Mormons. If you think it’s wrong then NOW is the time to let people know.

  • getreal

    @ShellyGirl: No one told him to shut up but to explain his point of view which really does not make sense. For one thing everyone here isn’t gay and most are not bigots(you clearly are). I’m straight and a supporter of equal rights for ALL Americans and there are plenty of other straights and christians on here so stop pretending you speak for anyone but yourself. If you aren’t a bigot fine believe anything you want but it is not okay to try to keep people from the same rights you have. THAT’S bigoted.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    Golly gee whiz, it looks like someone told their parishoners to come troll Queerty today. I wonder how many of them took a detour trhough Morning Goods before ending up on this thread.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    ^^^through, not trhough

    I hate typos.

  • Chitown Kev

    “inch by inch…”

  • getreal

    @vernonvanderbilt: a lot of google searches lead here. I’m glad that’s how I found this great site. Now everyday starts with Morning Goods. There’s nothing like cute boys in their underwear as a way to start your day LOL

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @getreal: Cute boys!?!? Do you get a different version of Morning Goods than I do?

    I kid, of course. And yeah, I know google sends a lot of ‘phobes our way, but you’d think they’d have something better to do with their time than swinging by here for a few minutes, taking a shit, and surfing away again. If they are so interested in furthering our oppression, they should get their asses out on the streets and put some work into it. Then we could see who they are and start working on converting their children already.

    Sorry, my toaster’s on the fritz and I need a new one. Free is the best price.

  • getreal

    @vernonvanderbilt: You notice they are so terrified of getting valid answers they just posts and run. Wait I thought conservatives were against the whole cut and run. Thing.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @getreal: Only when they are picking on the opposition, dear. As soon as one of them gets a whiff of reason, they run like cheap mascara on a rainy day. They’re not interested in dialogue, as that would be productive. They’d rather just spout inanities and cross their fingers, hoping people will start (not) thinking like them.

  • John

    “The Church did not send an e-mail to its members in regards to House Bill 2234, although a false report to the contrary has been circulated. An e-mail was sent from a local Illinois Church leader to his congregation – one of 129 congregations in the state — who was free to express his own views.”

    -LDS Church statement

  • b_a

    @Arch Stanton:

    Deal with your own internalized homophobia, Arch. I’m doing nothing wrong…just living my life as I was made. If you want to ascribe that creation to your God, then your God made me a lesbian.

    Keep trying to make yourself a martyr…your type gets off on that stuff…but really, it’s disingenuous. You can keep lying to yourself…but it doesn’t mean the rest of us have to buy your doo-doo.

  • TomInCA

    The comments here, particularly those of Jeremy and Arch Stanton, prompted me to register and respond.

    I’m not sure why Jeremy and Arch are here, but there comments speak volumes. I was raised an industrial-strength catholic and my partner (i.e. homosexual lover) was raised Mormon and is a BYU graduate. One of our friend’s mother was head of the Relief Society and his father was one of the LDS Bod of Directors, for lack of the right term. While we both believe in God and indeed pray, neither of us will have anything to do with organized religion today.

    The Mormons, Evangelicals and Catholics have all played leadership roles in the right-wing fight against equal rights for gay people. However it was the LDS church that put the massive weight of its organizational and money-raising skills behind Prop H8 here in California. It then obfuscated the truth about its involvement and pretended it was the victim of religious discrimination when confronted with the truth. Further, the content of its appeals were rife with negative falsehoods about gay people and gay marriage. Both the conduct and the cover-up angered a lot of people, particularly gay people. Arguably, the Mormon Church broke campaign law and crossed the line separating church and state.

    From the sound of Jeremy’s comments, I assume he is gay, but not ready to turn his back on his church. Arch seems to have been given the job of preaching the party line (no grays, just black and white)in enemy territory.

    Jeremy, people were overly hyperbolic in responding to your defenses of the LDS. Mormons have the right to live their lives according to their faith and we all owe them the figurative space to do so. However, you need to recognize that when you seek to impose a de jure second class status on a group of people, they are going to get pissed off. You caused and provoked the incident. Please don’t feign shock or play the victim.

    Mormons are very good at pretending they have the perfect system based on some absolute truth. They have created a heavy-duty culture and religion around it. Boys like Jeremy are indoctrinated from birth in a black and white system that makes no allowance for who they truly are. Any positive image of gay people is white-washed. We don’t exist except as examples of devil doers to be pitied and censured.

    I am sure Arch doesn’t consciously intend to do harm, but he does. Gay Mormons grow up alone, are taught to hate themselves, are overwhelmed with guilt and many see no way out. If Arch believed in the whole truth (which he breezes right over because it’s not “nice”), he’d tell us about suicide within their culture or the rampant child abuse at the turn gay boys straight camps. Arch, if you want to talk about evil, you could spend the rest of your life on those two topics.

    There isn’t one iota of scientific knowledge that suggests homosexuality is anything other than a naturally occurring trait. Since that goes against the Mormon party line, they march right past it. Well Arch, the way I figure it your arrogance and narrow-minded religious bigotry have caused countless deaths and unmeasurable hurt. Please don’t preach your falsehoods to me. To the extent I believe in the repentance of sin, it is Arch that needs to repent.

    Jeremy, you got a raw deal being born a gay Mormon boy. Run as quickly as you can to therapy and a support group. You owe those folks nothing. They hurt you. You are their victim. Turn your back and run. Sure your Mom and Dad love you, but they have done a lousy job of loving you. Lots of us wish you well.

    What really gets my goat about the Mormon culture is the 100%phony “niceness” and hypocrisy. I mentioned our friend with the parents who are “Mormon royalty”. The mother and father loathed each other; lived in separate houses; both took heterosexual lovers and continued being uber-Mormons. He was elected to the Board and she was the head of the Relief Society, sort of similar to a catholic Cardinal and Mother Superior. Everyone in town knew they were married in name only, but every Sunday he picked her up and they drove to church where they pretended to be the model Mormon married couple and everyone else pretended it was true. They have 4 or 5 adult children, two of whom are gay. None of the kids practice Mormonism, nor will they speak to their parents. This story, a true one, demonstrates all the phoniness to me. Active Mormons, IMHO, come in two varieties- brain-washed or dishonest.

    BTW, I have zero use for my alma mater, the Holy Roman Catholic Church so I take no offense in anything said about it.

    I wrote this to get stuff off my chest. Arch, please take 30 seconds for self-reflection and then stop perpetuating such destructive ideology. Jeremy, please seek the help you need.

  • overit30

    When the president of the Mormon Church tells its members to do something they do it. To act contrary to the “Prophet” is to disobey God. Now, we wouldn’t want that now would we? The fact of the matter is that according to Mormons “When the Prophet speaks, the debate ends for the thinking has been done for them” A similar view is taken of the role of the Bishop in his own congregation (ward). Now may I make a few suggestions that I hope the justifiably angry gay community considers. First, Mormons love to be “persecuted” its in their DNA. They aren’t happy unless they are fighting for something. It makes them feel like they are soldiers in God’s army fighting against Satan. Don’t make protest signs comparing Joseph Smith’s marriage to 40 women (many of whom were younger than 14) to homosexuality. For one, It doesn’t occur to Mormons that their moral stance on “traditional families” is anything but traditional and secondly its insulting to homosexuals. Mormon polygamy historically involved marriage of middle age men to underage girls (statutory rape) this is quite different than two men that engage in adult mutually consensual sex. 2. Don’t protest outside of temples. Mormons don’t have Sunday worship at temples. If you go to a temple on Sunday the only person there will be a portly security guard with a crew cut. 3. IF you really want to make a difference. Dress conservatively in a business suit or dress and respectfully attend church with the Mormons in their Chapel on Sundays. Hold hands with your partner, introduce yourself to as many people as you can and make sure you make the Bishop look you in the eye when you shake his hand. Mormons dont’ know gay people, Any mormon that is gay is kicked out. They need to know they don’t need to be afraid of you and your family. Make them see you as a person and human being. Trust me votes will change

  • ed

    Is this one Mormon bishop or is this the Mormon church? Doesn’t seem to be a collective.

  • geoff

    @vernonvanderbilt: Fucking A Right! Couldn’t have said it better myself. As far as I’m concerned, anyone from any religion should be welcome to live anywhere they want, but when they start trying to trample on the civil rights of others, fuck ’em!

  • ed

    Did the Mormons provoke this or did we by pushing to change the norms? I just feel like all this hatred is ignorant and hurts the cause. Calling each them bigots won’t fix this mess.

  • getreal

    @geoff: CO-SIGN

  • larogan

    @Arch Stanton: You are incorrect about the Church saying gay people can change themselves to straight people. They used to think that but in the last few years have dropped that stupid theory. They haven’t come out said directly that folks are born gay but they imply it in many of their public statements. Aversion therapy is no longer recommended because of the damage and pain it causes the individual, plus they don’t encourage marriage to the opposite sex as a cure because of the suffering that it can bring to an entire family.

    If your are going to put old information like in your comment you are only doing harm to both groups.

  • b_a


    Letting interracial couples marry changed the norms. The bigots didn’t like it. It was still legal.

    I see this as the same. The bigots still won’t like it. They’re still the ones trying to limit my rights, not visa versa.

    I choose to not buy in to their bigotry, and invite them to stay away from my civil rights.

  • vernonvanderbilt


    “Did the Mormons provoke this or did we by pushing to change the norms?”

    I’m not sure I’m reading you correctly here, but let me come down unequivocally on our side. The fact of our existence is not provocative. After all, we’ve been around a lot longer than the Mormons have. Hell, we’ve been around longer than any form of christianity can claim. When the “norm” is oppression, persecution, assault, and murder, I don’t think it’s justifiable to not push against it. If you want to defend these subhumans, go right ahead, but when you try to insinuate that the GLBT community is to blame for the repeated, heinous attacks against us and our families, you’re teaming with the bad guys. I’d suggest you think long and hard about how you feel about that.

    “Calling each them bigots won’t fix this mess.”

    No, but it’s telling it like it is. Most people don’t like to be called bigots, and anything that we can say or do to get under their skin is fair game. Beyond some pleasant venting, though, it is our duty as human beings to point out and decry bigotry whenever it rears its ugly head. Religious groups/churches do not hold a monopoly on righteousness. Most of them are actually devoid of it from the start. They don’t get a free pass in the blame game just because they believe in one or more deities. They still deserve to be called out for being bigots.

  • larogan

    @strumpetwindsock: You need to re-read my comment. I put up the Church’s official statement not my personal belief. I know and have associated with gay couples that have been together over 30 years like my wife and I. I’m not threaten by gay marriage.

    Marriage is a good stabilizing force in society. I don’t care if it is called marriage, civil union or domestic partnership as long as there is a life long loving commitment between two people, straight or gay. My belief in the Mormon Church come from it’s scriptures and my love for my Savior Jesus Christ. I sustain the Church leadership in their calling but I might agree, disagree or feel neutral about some of the stances they take. Agency is a good thing.

    One last short comment on another persons comment, “So, why didn’t they do anything for the Common Grounds Initiative in Utah, which would have granted us those very rights they claim they support?” They are walking a fine line and there is a difference between “don’t oppose” and will support.

  • getreal

    @vernonvanderbilt: You are on fire today! Preach on!

  • Aaron

    @ed: The Mormons provoked this.

  • John

    Wow – a letter between two people with similar beliefs encouraging the other on to call her elected officials. We need to stone these people.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    “This bill will legalize civil unions in the state of Illinois, and will treat such civil unions with the same legal obligations, responsibilities, protections and benefits as are afforded within marriage.”

    They say it like it is a bad thing.

    These people won’t even allow us to be second-class citizens, much less, equal citizens.

    The only thing that will ever make these hateful people happy, is our complete eradication, which is where this is all leading to.

    We are in precisely the same place gays were in 1939 Germany. We had it all back then too. We had gay organizations. We had gay clubs. We had gay magazines and literature. We had gay leaders and many of us were out and proud then as well.

    Then along came a dumpy looking little wallpaper hanger with a funny looking moustache that looked like a comb.

    I invite each and every one of us to reading this thought provoking article entitled “Don’t Forget The Holocaust”.

  • Shelly

    Every description on here about members or the actual church is filled with lies and half truths. When you get the story straight, I might just listen to what you have to say.

    In the meantime, Kick Trash! Go Mormons! Do the work the Christians (who hide quietly in the bushes) are afraid to do because they think its funny to let the Mormons take the heat.

    Either way, gays don’t run this country. They have every right I do. They just want more. And for those of you who like to beat the drum that gays are born that way, you defy the very gift God gave you – free agency. The ability to choose for yourself.

    The difference between us and the animals, is we don’t have to act on our urges, we have a conscience.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    Are you also a Holocaust denier, like Bishop Williamson?

  • strumpetwindsock


    No, I wasn’t assuming that was your personal position, and my other comment was to church members generally.
    Please don’t take it as a destructive comment, because that wasn’t my intention at all.

    Thanks again for posting it

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “Mormons don’t believe the garment is magic, just that they provide a spiritual protection.”

    There’s a difference?

    You say po-tay-toe and I say po-tah-toe…

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @Charles J. Mueller: Stop constantly picking on people we’re all tired of it. If you think his views are silly that’s one thing but calling him a Holocaust Denier because of what some other person said is SICK.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “Well, since the people that practice polygamy haven’t been a part of the LDS church for around 100 years”


    Well, then, how would you explain this?

    “The members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints spent their days raising numerous children, tilling small gardens and doing chores. But at least one former resident says life was not some idyllic replica of 19th-century life.”

    Please consult with your magical…oops…spiritual undies and get back to me on this?

    I’m confused.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Arch Stanton:

    And you, Sir, are bigotry in action, wrapped in your self-righteous, spiritual undies.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “Superstitions such as ours…”

    A believer in a sky-daddy, The Book of Mormons and a wearer of “spiritual” under panties?

    And he calls people who believe in equality for all, superstitious?

    These people are min-fuckers who slap you across the face and when you ask, “Why did you do that?” reply by saying…

    “Because you sinners deserve it and have it coming”.

    :::I am slamming my head on my computer desk again:::

  • Charles J. Mueller

    “Don’t judge all of us Mormon by the actions of one bigoted Bishop in Nauvoo.”

    Why does that not sound any different to me from “Don’t judge all of us Christians by the actions of one bigoted Pope in the Vatican City.

    @Chitown Kev:

    “Step by step”.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    As is this one:

    No. 53 · ShellyGirl

    Go Mormons! Kick Trash! No one can tell you to shut up. You have every right to be concerned with bills that are going to pass in your state. Gay bigots are just trying to silence you.

  • Sebbe


  • Ben

    How anybody could be against civil unions is beyond me.

    If you don’t like gay marriage, then don’t marry someone of the same sex. If you don’t like gays, then don’t be gay. If you don’t like marriage between gay couples, then don’t marry someone of the same sex.

    Get over it.

    Let them have civil unions and leave them alone. We have enough problems in life.

    Leave these people alone, okay?


  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Chitown Kev: Hi Kev,

    Step by step. Inch by Inch. Turn by turn.

    How about a new daytime tv soap…

    “As The Screw Turns” ;-)

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    Calling people Holocaust deniers because of what some Pope said is SICK. I don’t think any popes are on here so don’t bring up the Holocaust it is really disrespectful to people and not just another go to insult for you.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @Ben: I agree it seems fundies just have a vendetta against gays.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    Ummm…we might be second-class citizens at the moment, thanks to the good, God-Fearing folks and Jebus followers like you…

    But we aren’t blind, girlfriend. We got ya…loud and clear, on the first surf-by shooting.

    “The difference between us and the animals, is we don’t have to act on our urges, we have a conscience.”

    That’s Rick Warren-like reference to bestiality, no doubt? Honey, if you had a conscience, you wouldn’t be making despicable, unfounded statement like that. When intelligent argument to back up your argument fails, resort to hurling insults, lies and defaming statement.

    I’d tighten the drawstring a tad on those spiritual undies you’re wearing, because they are sliding down to your ankles from from the weight of all the poop you’ve made in them.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @anderson cooper is my future husband:

    Thank you for your thoughtfully articulated point of view.

    It’s always nice to hear from people who label other posters on these threads as pedophiles without proof of it.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    My apologies to all the other posters on this thread for the clump of postings near the end.

    I was sick in bed all day and only just came on this this site a little while ago. Apparently, a lot was going on while I slept. :-)

  • geoff

    Is shelly seriously so brain dead to believe that gays have every right she does? WE DON’T!!!!!!! And as for people ganging up on poor bigots and homophobes acting under the guise of religion, you don’t get to throw stones and not expect some lobbed right back at you. You don’t like gay marriage? Then shut the fuck up and don’t go to a gay wedding. How is this anyone’s business other than the people getting married?

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @vernonvanderbilt: Hi Vernon,

    Great post,guy.

    I see all the usual suspects are here today. ;-)

  • Bill Perdue

    This is just another proof, if any were needed, that religion, which is just superstition and ignorance all dressed up to go out in public, is our major enemy.

    Since the McCarthy era religious groups have been injecting themselves into political life in support of US imperial wars like Vietnam and Iraq, in support of racism, opposed to women’s right, particularly abortion rights, and opposed to GLBT equality.

    These cults, particularly the mormons, catholics and southern baptists are very powerful and aren’t going away. In fact, because Obama panders to them they’ll become much more powerful. I think it’s a very good idea to picket them and scandalize them but in the long run we have to suppress them.

    We can begin to do that by supporting ideas like charging individuals and cults as coconspirators and accomplices when they advocate violence and some one is hurt or killed afterwards.

    We can support the idea of ending all financial assistance to these bigots by ending their blanket tax exemptions, ending ‘faith based’ bribes and denying 501-c status to any group connected to a cult espousing bigotry.

    And we can support shutting down cult schools that teach blatantly ignorant bigoted ideas that we’re sinners or in any way unfit to be citizens with full rights.

  • Bill Perdue

    @anderson cooper is my future husband:
    anderson cooper is my future husband @Charles J. Mueller: Stop constantly picking on people we’re all tired of it.

    It’s very christian of you and others to call people you disagree with pedophiles. The knowledge of that blatant ugliness tell us all we need to know.

  • DanM

    Sorry Ed, but they do excommunicate gays. “Condition” and “behavior” are not as inseparable as you would like. To say “we don’t excommunicate gays who are chaste but we do excommunicate gays who have relations with members of the same sex” is to say “we excommunicate gays”. I will quote a person for whom I have great respect: “while there’s a difference between orientation and conduct, the two cannot be teased apart as easily as some religious conservatives would like. Who we are is intimately connected with what we do—especially when it comes to deep personal relationships. Those who profess to “love the sinner but hate the sin” often distort that deep connection.”- Dr. John Corvino ( I see no reason to put this into my own words since I am not as eloquent as Dr. Corvino appears to be, and he says exactly what I know to be true.

    Overall, I do think that this letter is a local thing and not part of the larger church.

  • DanM

    I was referring to comment # 69 above.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @larogan: That’s the thing about walking a fine line, isn’t it? Sooner or later you’re going to fall off. It’s only a matter of which side you’ll land on. Which side will these particular linewalkers end up on, in your opinion?

    You want to know my guess? They’ll land on our side when all is said and done. And do you know why? Because if they don’t, their church will slowly crumble.

    Take a look at the world today. Church attendances are down, students aren’t training for the clergy as often, memberships are shrinking, income is shrinking, and when churches ask themselves why this is, they invariably offer variations on one basic theme: they’re out of step with the times.

    So maybe some of them try using “rock” music in their services. Numbers drop.

    Perhaps their leaders work pop culture references into their sermons. Numbers drop.

    They hire a young clergyperson with green hair and an eyebrwo piercing. Numbers drop.

    Why do their efforts come to nothing? Why do they continue to fail, even when they appear to be doing things right?

    Because the changes they make are the easiest ones to stomach…cosmetic ones. You can take a lump of dog shit, wrap it in pretty gold foil with a red ribbon tied around it, set it on a silver platter and serve it at a banquet table to the accompaniment of a trumpet fanfare, but that doesn’t change what it is. A lump of dog shit.

    Churches of all stripes fail because their message becomes more irrelevant with every passing year. Note that I say “churches” and not “spiritualities.” I want to make sure I’m not misunderstood here, because a lot of the religious types who mosey down our block tend to get a bit huffy when they think their beliefs are being attacked. I don’t give two shits what anyone worships or how they choose to worship it, so long as they’re not hurting anyone else by doing it.

    As I was saying, the message grows increasingly irrelevant. Let’s be honest here; there isn’t a church anywhere in spacetime, anywhere on the political spectrum, that doesn’t cherrypick the particular tenets and aspects of its religion that it chooses to push. Why do you think there are 500,000 different christian denominations when they all claim to follow the same book?

    For instance, hot topics in the modern era are homosexuality and abortion. In the past, maybe it was hair length, or whether dancing was permissible, or biblical literalism. Likewise, there are certain biblical tales that have stood the test of time, such as Noah’s ark, Jonah and the whale, and of course, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. But there are plenty of stories in the bible that most christians turn a blind eye to, because they’re a little hard to reconcile. I could tell you that Jesus was a horse thief and you’d probably get pissed, but it’s in there. I could point out the parts where rape and murder were approved by god itself. Let’s not even get into Psalm 137:9.

    The point being, things change. Ideas change. People change. And most importantly, what people are willing to put up with changes.

    These days, most people are less inclined to tolerate a church that chooses to persecute their friends, families, and neighbours. We live in an era where love, true love, is becoming more and more rare. Conversely, we also live in an era where other folks’ business is more and more becoming public business. Witness the rise of MySpace and Youtube if you need proof. Everyone thinks they know everyone else intimately, but in actuality they know nearly nothing. They know the wrapping that people present to the world. They know nothing about the (metaphorical) shit inside them.

    As the world shrinks, the gulfs between humans expand. It’s a lot easier to hate someone (or, in the case of assorted churches, “love” someone, which is often the same thing) when they’re an abstract concept rather than a flesh-and-blood person. These line-walkers…why do you think they’re on that line in the first place? What do you think compels them to engage in heinous acts of oppression? What compels them to disseminate outright falsehoods and blatant distortions in order to further this cause of theirs? Why this cause anyway?

    Here in America, it would appear to be a simple lack of patriotism. But there’s more to it. Here, and around the world, it’s simply a callous disregard for humanity, and life in general.

    Humans like to be organized, grouped, and labeled. It’s our genetic heritage, stemming back to the days of the cavemen. Numbers are safe. Numbers are content. Numbers…they’re powerful. We were born to surround ourselves with like-minded individuals, just like we were born to seek out an “other” to hate. It’s how civilization works. This intellectual imperative we are hardwired for is also responsible for the creation and evolution of religions.

    Ideas, belief systems, memes, these are living things. They grow and evolve and engulf and devour and wither and die. Some do it quickly, and some do it slowly. The churches who, today, have chosen to demonize the GLBT people of the world are not fighting progress because it’s the right thing to do. They may think it is, though as gleefully smug as most of them are I think it’s got little to do with what’s right. They are fighting progress because they know that they are heading on a one-way path toward obsolescence, and rather than growing with the times, they prefer to shrink into the past. Things were safer then, simpler…people were easier to control, and a dollar went a whole lot farther.

    The truly sad thing is that these primitives actually think they’re heroic. They think they’re the embodiment of that classically American “rugged individualism,” steadfastly refusing to follow the river downstream, instead swimming against the current with all of their might. And you know, for a while, they actually make some backward progress. But inevitably, the rain comes, the stream swells, the current grows stronger, the flesh grows weaker. They tire, they falter, they gasp, and they are swept downstream into the future. This is doubly sad, because before they even get to glimpse the wonders the future holds, they’ve killed themselves trying to get away from it. Simple fear leads to premature death.

    These churches, and the followers they house, fear the future.

    They also fear love.

    They fear love that is not like that they have imagined. They fear love that is not like that they would choose. They fear love that they were not wired to give or receive. I don’t speak of gay love. I speak of unconditional love.

    There is one love they don’t fear, though. That’s the love of power. Make no mistake about it; there isn’t a church around that wouldn’t love to be part of a theocracy, provided said theocracy was based on their particular interpretation of whatever text they use. The mormons are no different. They have aspirations to be the new catholics, and the first step in that is to infiltrate and subvert secular governments and secular societies. They find their “others” and work tirelessly to demonize them in order to rally the troops. They oppress and suppress, as much as they are able, anyone who has a different vision of the possibilities of human society.

    So the queers are the new bogeymen for these churches. Fine. Everybody is somebody’s enemy. But it would save a lot of time, money, energy, blood, sweat, tears…and lives, if they would all wake up and realize that not only are they fighting a losing battle, but they’re killing themselves to do it. Desperation is never a flattering ensemble.

    So should we pity them? Of course. They’re pitiable, pathetic. But should be show them mercy? Absolutely not. They show no mercy themselves, so why would they warrant receiving any? The churches (and their followers) who are opposed to true equality for all people, with no conditions, no demands, just unconditional love, are dead weight, and they hold back the evolution of society into its higher, more perfect form. I say that anyone who is interested in moving forward needs to do their part to cut the ropes tying them to us, and force them to sink or swim based on their own abilities. A secular society cannot abide being lashed to these stones unless it wants to sink with them.

    I don’t know about you, but I’m not ready to drown just yet. I’ll keep talking, keep fighting, and keep getting angry. I will throw stones whenever I can in hopes of knocking some of these troglodytes off that line. I don’t fear the future, and I don’t fear love. I’m evolving, happily. I wish I could say the same for everyone on this rock we call home.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    Apologies for the italics above. I guess I screwed up a tag in there. It happens.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    Wow! What can I say. I am simply blown away by your words.

    Have you ever thought about writing a book?

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Charles J. Mueller: Absolutely. I have two that I have been working on for some time, a fiction work and a non-fiction work, both dealing with some of my personal philosophies and spiritual beliefs. I really should spend more time working on them and less time posting on the internet. :P But since I don’t get to write intensively as often as I’d like, coming to sites like this one helps keep the joints oiled, so to speak. Glad you enjoyed my piece up there, though. In the end, I’m always speaking from the heart. It’s not my fault that it’s a shriveled and stony thing. ;)

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    Well I’m an atheist but I don’t like bullies people here should know just how mean you get and I’m not some jesus freak who won’t stand up for myself. Apologize to all the people you bully on this site. If anyone thinks I’m overreacting just read the despicable comments this man fires at people. If they stand up to him he actually threatens to sue them. Hilarious! Oh and Charles Mueller and Bill Perdue are the same poster.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @vernonvanderbilt: What I always admire about your posts is you never lower yourself to the level of the fundies. You always sound smarter, stronger and more intelligent. I really challenge all the contributers on this site to emulate your example. We don’t have to be hateful to defeat hateful people. And when we insult them without given intelligent debate to their bullshit we do ourselves a disservice not them.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @anderson cooper is my future husband: Thanks for the kind words, ACIMFH. Praise generally makes me uncomfortable, but I do appreciate that you were positively impacted by my words.

    I have always espoused the idea that if you are going to oppose something someone has said, your argument needs to be more eloquent and better thought out. If you’re going to get overly emotional, take a few moments to center yourself so you can speak clearly. Above all else, don’t pull your punches. I think following those three (very loose) guidelines not only help foster a livelier discussion, but they also give you the upper hand in it.

  • Shelly

    Pro-marriage does not mean anti-gay!!! Get over yourself! Children deserve a mother and a father influence. Period. Leave marriage alone!

  • vernonvanderbilt

    And then someone like Shelly pops up and tempts me to throw all that right out the window. ;)

    Do not feed the trolls. Do not feed the trolls. Do not feed the trolls…bitch.

    Sorry…do not feed the trolls…do not feed the trolls…etc. etc. etc.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @Shelly: You leave marriage alone you are the one trying to outlaw it. if you think children deserve two parents stop attacking gay families who are already raising kids.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @vernonvanderbilt: It seems a shame to ignore a stupid person who you could run rings around intellectually. Maybe it’s just me.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @anderson cooper is my future husband: The interesting thing about the “one mother, one father” argument is how it implies that men and women are not equals. Just something to chew on, I think.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @anderson cooper is my future husband: Yeah, I know, but there’s something to be said for avoiding the easy targets. They have it hard enough in life as it is without being continually humiliated in the online world.

    That and I’m just not in the mood at the moment. :P

  • Chitown Kev

    “inch by motherf*****g inch…”

  • strumpetwindsock

    Interesting thesis.

    I think you could add that most churches are becoming less relevant in our country because they are no longer the centre of social life for a community, as they were 50 and 100 years ago. Also a lot of the social safety net that used to work through the church is now in the hands of the govenrment.

    But then, in the day when everyone went to church it WAS largely a social thing, and it still is for many who attend church. Not everyone is there on a deep spiritual quest.

    And you have to remember there have been times in our history when there have been explosions of spiritual interest and change (the early 1800s, and to a lesser degree the 1960s). So while traditional church attendance has dropped off, we can’t necessarily assume it will continue to dwindle to nothingness. There has been a concurrent rise in both non-christian faiths and , unfortunately a spike in fundamentalism.

    Also, I do think you’re writing more from the context of north america and the developed world. I’m not sure people are turning their backs on traditional churches in quite the same numbers in other cultures.

    Who is to say if that will ever change.

    And I do agree that there will always be forces within churches that will abuse whatever power they get. I agree with you there 100 percent. If the pope could fire up the engines of the inquisition tomorrow, I believe he would do it.

    But I think you are wrong about every faith’s ultimate goal being theocracy (if that is what you meant). There are a number of faiths (and movements within larger faiths) which have always stood against oppression and violence. I do not think the Quaker Hitler will be doing battle with the Sufi Stalin anytime soon.

    Some faiths don’t even have a structure that would make that possible.

    And as for which way people will ultimately fall… Though I disagree with much of your feeling about religious belief, I hope you are right that destiny would have them fall our way. Given the rising power of many fundamentalist churches and the religious right, I fear you may be wrong.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @vernonvanderbilt: And it also ignores all those “good parents” who have abandoned their partners, or the ones who are so abusive that kids are better off without them.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    What does inch by inch mean? anyone?

  • Shelly

    You really don’t know much about the Mormon church if you think it is “not growing” or “going away”.

    Keep your philosophies and ideals that you can tamper with procreative powers and not be held responsible. Mormons will keep their philosophies and ideals that the family is central to God’s plan for us in this life.

    There is a counter argument for every tidbit you want to throw at religious or “spiritual” (as you call them) people. You think you can destroy the messenger and the message will go away. Not so. You can call names, defame reputations, and scream hate all you want. That is your perception. Reality says people have been gentle towards you. You just refuse to listen.

    This will go down as one of the greatest battles of good and evil fought on earth. God’s plan for families will win. You will still be loved and recognized as human, but you will be proven wrong. Nature discriminated against you first.

  • Chitown Kev

    @anderson cooper is my future husband:

    It’s an old saying from a 3 Stooges episode where Curly was a boxer. There was a certainh phrase that would be said and then Moe or Larry would say, “Slowly he turns, step by step, inch by inch…” and Curly would beat the shit out of the guy. The word “Mormon” kinda does that to me.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @strumpetwindsock: A few points to clarify, if you’ll indulge me.

    I absolutely agree with the social aspect of churchgoing that you bring up. It didn’t meaningfully expand my original thesis above, so I simply didn’t get into that aspect of the situation.

    Also, I am definitely writing from an American perspective. It’s where I live, so obviously I have more authority to write on the state of the American church than the state of, say, the Namibian church. I’m not really well-traveled enough to have the right to speak on the situation in other nations.

    Also, I didn’t say that theocracy is every church’s goal. I simply believe that the vast majority of them wouldn’t complain if it came to pass. I definitely agree that the Quakers probably wouldn’t, though. They generally appear to be pretty upstanding people who are worthy of respect.

    As far as the rise of fundamentalism, I think it has already peaked and people are growing weary of those particular churches. I do see an upswing in moderate christianity here in America, but unfortunately a lot of them are rather lukewarm regarding matters of equality.

    I firmly believe the fundamentalist movement will fall, and I am holding out hope that it will occur in my lifetime. Ideally, I would like to see an awakening of a more all-encompassing spirituality, but that’s at least partially a self-serving desire, considering my own pantheistic beliefs. At least I own up to my selfishness, unlike the fundies.

    As far as your second comment (121) you are spot-on. the “mother/father” argument holds so little water I’m almost dumbfounded when I see there are still people who try to use it to further an anti-marriage agenda.

  • Chitown Kev

    Shelly, shut up and to hell with your husband and your 24 wife-in-laws. And if you take that personally, it was meant to be personal

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Shelly: If there are counter arguments, why aren’t you presenting them? Stupid much?

  • Chitown Kev

    Damn, I slipped y’all…

    Shelly, you and your likes, leave my people alone. Our salvation is our business. We don’t want your point of view on this. We don’t your preaching, you have harmed enough of us. Please, just go.

  • Chitown Kev


    And you and your likes made it personal when you targeted my people for discrimination in California. And now you want your bigoted and religious voice in an Illinois civic discussion on marriage equality. It is getting REALLY personal now…

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @Shelly: I’m sure what year you live in but two men or two women can have children children and in large numbers they are raising families with their own blood or adopted if god had a problem with it he would not allow it to happen. There is nothing evil about same sex couples only people who have nothing better to do than deny right to complete strangers.

  • Chitown Kev


    not at you Vernon, #129 was directed at Shelly, my apologies.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Chitown Kev: You know you like it. :P

  • Chitown Kev


    fundamentalism sways back and forth over large periods of time. Interestingly, it’s during eras where science and rational thinking are top dog when you find people to be on the other side of the religious spectrum, rigid and dogmatic and fundamentalist. Socrates was put to death, in part, for that reason. Christianity achieved it’s greatest expansion during the AD 120-180 of the Roman Empire (the Empire’s best years)…now amid the greatest scientific and technical discoveries known to man, belief in the power of man and rationality again is as co-existent as fundamentalist religous belief.

    The 2 go together and it’s been like that at least as far back as classical antiquity.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Chitown Kev: That’s an excellent point. I would explain it as simply another way in which the Universe creates a balance, myself. Mostly, though, I think it’s simply fear of the unknown. It’s easy to denigrate that which you do not understand. True wisdom lies in seeing a lack of knowledge as an opportunity rather than a limitation.

    If these fundie cretins had any sense, they would joyfully latch onto the fact that science is giving us more evidence every day that miracles do happen, and that they are happening all around us, every moment, of every day. I didn’t believe in a higher power until I started getting interested in modern science, particularly quantum physics and its cutting-edge offshoots.

  • Shelly

    Chitown – I don’t have any “wife-in-laws”. Real Mormons don’t practice polygamy (since 1890). Get your facts straight before you try to dis’ on someone.

    No, I won’t shut up. Gay bigots would love nothing more than to silence those who are fighting back.

    Stop with the hateful posts, and I might just move to another blog site. Deal?

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Shelly: Fighting back? Seriously? As I recall, you degenerates threw the first stones in this war.

    And I’m still waiting for those counter-arguments you claimed existed. Please, leave me speechless with your debating prowess. Unless you’re just here to troll, of course. Wouldn’t want to interfere with your joyful ranting by asking you to, you know, actually think about something.

  • getreal

    @Shelly: I don’t want you to go anywhere maybe if you actually read other people’s posts God will find his way into your heart. You see I’m a straight christian who hopes one day to make my boyfriend my husband. I would never try to take the same dream from others. I believe that children need two parents ideally but it is not your place or mine to decide who those people are. So this is not a hateful post and i’m not fighting you. If you really care about God’s plan get on your knees and pray to be filled with God’s love not hate. You and i both know God wants you to be an example and he has better plans for you than attacking strangers on a website. Everyone here isnt gay and there are certainly very few bigots what we all are, are God’s children as a christian you have a responsibility to treat everyone including yourself with respect. If you can do that than have a dialogue with people but don’t point fingers when you are not being a righteous woman yourself. It is God’s plan that you treat ALL his children with respect. So let’s see since you preach on it how much you respect God’s plan

  • Chitown Kev


    Yeah, I was reading a layman’s book on Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Basically the theory says that if any object other than light travels that fast (186,282 mi./sec)it’s mass fills the entire universe and there is no movement in time. What do you call something like that, if you can imagine it, God?

    I mean, today it’s gay marriage, hundreds of years ago it was Copernicus, Galileo, and on through to Newton. Same thing.

    And it’s not like a system of complete and total rationality is perfect. Hell, some of the most homophobic statements I’ve ever read were in Marx and Engles (where homosexuality is the form in which the social elite oppress the proletariat. Jasmayne Cannick’s arguments are stolen almost verbatim from Marx).

    It is about learning how we learn to co-exist. I wouldn’t even think to bother Shelly if she didn’t bother me and my people.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “You will still be loved and recognized as human,”

    Oh! Whew! I am so relieved. For a moment, I was afraid I was gonna shipped off to the dog pound.

    I didn’t want to spend another cold nite out in the dog house like an animal again!

    Will you promise to pet me on the head now an then, just to let me know that I do exist?

    And getting the scraps off the table after everyone else is through dining will be such a nice change from a once a day bowl of dry dog food and a bowl of water from a garden hose.

    Any chane of an old pillow or cushion to sleep on?

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Chitown Kev: Exactly. This is why I think no one can have a complete view of the nature of the higher power if they approach it from a single perspective. It boggles my mind that people try to treat science and spirituality as if they were opposite forces. In my mind, they are and always have been complementary, so long as they are viewed honestly and not distorted.

  • getreal

    I apologize to anyone and everyone who finds the God stuff offensive but I feel like I can’t let these so called christian homophobes come on here and lay the whole “poor godless gays” sh*t on everyone without getting down to some real truth.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “That is your perception. Reality says people have been gentle towards you. You just refuse to listen.”

    Let’s see now. In a past-life regression, I seem to recall, oh I don’t know, around the middle ages, perhaps, being tied to a wooden steak in the courtyard of a Catholic church.

    There were a lot reads and sticks piled up around my feet and as high as my neck that had been set on fire and with all the smoke and all, I couldn’t see clearly.

    There were a lot people gathered out in that courtyard screaming all sorts of things at me, but because of the crackling of the fire around me and the sheer number of voice shouting their love at me, it was really hard distinguishing one voice from another.

    Just before I lost consciousness, however, I did single out one woman’s voice screaming faggot, or some such thing.

    I guess she just wanted me to know how much she loved me and how gently they were easing me into the great hereafter.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “Stop with the hateful posts, and I might just move to another blog site.”

    Oh, puleeeezzzzee….don’t let the hateful posts hold you back.

    Moving to another blog, may I suggest a Mormon one, where your charming, antiquated and somewhat bizarre comments will be well received, cheered, applauded and given a proper AMEN

    *Music in background*

    Got along without ya before me met you…

    Gonna get along without ya now.

    Bub-Bye *head tilled to one side ala Airline Cabin Attendant*

  • Charles J. Mueller

    type: me should we

    Never could carry a tune very well. ;-)

  • strumpetwindsock


    The bottom line is Shelley, nobody is telling you that you can’t have the kind of family you want. Why are people refusing us that same right.

    By that I mean in the states. As I posted further up this thread we recognize same-sex marriage in Canada and our country has not been cast into outer darkness. Nobody has tried to force any church to perform a same sex marriage, and nobody has tried to marry his cat. Everything is pretty much the same, except that we can all get married now.

    I don’t see the probem.

    There aren’t even any set marriage laws in the bible or the book of mormon, and your church even recognizes secular marriages as valid (though not as Celestial, yes I know), so why are opponents of marriage equality pretending that you have complete ownership of the institution of marriage? You do not own it. To deny someone the right to a secular marriage is unfair and it has nothing to do with your religion at all.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @anderson cooper is my future husband:

    *Whistles to get Anderson cooper is my future husband AKA Mark’s attention*

    As hall monitor, and in the advent that you might have missed them I felt that I should be honest and do the christian thing by letting you know that I’ve made three hateful posts to Shelly, utilizing below the belt comments, using hateful speech and uttering foul words. I didn’t really, but I am sure you will look under ever rock and check each nook and cranny looking for one.

    *checking watch*

    Isn’t it about time for a regularly scheduled surf-by shooting while yelling “pedophile”?

  • Bill Perdue

    @Shelly: Damn, we have all the luck. Where do all these straight christer missionary types come from? Why do they all claim they’re ‘oppressed’ by GLBT folks?

    Why do they bother – they’re not going to convince us, just make us try all that much harder to end their influence.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Bill Perdue: Hi Bill,

    Have you noticed that there seems to be a steadily increasing number of religious interlopers coming on to Queerty threads?

    What is their purpose? Certainly, they are not going to get any converts or save any souls here.

    Would you or I be wasting our time trolling a straight blog and making incendiary posts like the ones Shelly as making? I mean, what reason would we have to do that and what would we hope to get from it?

    Given the number of LCR gays and homophobic homos that exist, I have to wonder if this “straight Mormon Woman” was in fact, who she represented herself to be? “She” could very well have just be an imposter whose sole purpose is to create discord and get everyone fighting amongst themselves as has been the case as of late.

    “You will still be loved and recognized as human, but you will be proven wrong. Nature discriminated against you first.”

    That is one of the most outrageous, inflamatory statements I have ever heard in my entire life. It reeks of superiority. And what fucking love have any of these cock-knockers ever shown us?

    What dimension is she living in? She is so fucking out of touch with reality, it makes her look like she has been living in the Pleiades. She makes no bones about using the word discrimination and uses nature as the justification for it. Well, at least, it wasn’t the bible this time around.

    You and I have been coming here for a long time and I do not recall these threads being quite as confrontational as they have been recently. Do you?

  • Bill Perdue

    @Charles J. Mueller: There are lots more religious types. Some were energized by beating the hell out of us last November and want to demoralize us and others are just trawling (or is that trolling, or maybe both) for converts.

    They might get a one or two but they’ll never be able to compete with our own home grown groups like MCC or the UU churches. But if people can still become ex-gay, born-again, brain-dead zombies then the christers have a glimmer of hope. But no more. The results of a couple of dozen centuries of murder and violence at the hands of the abrahamic cults is pretty well burned into everyone’s consciousness and it creates a wall of enmity and distrust they’ll never breach.

    Actually since Japhy spoke from “On High” they’ve calmed down some, except for occasional pathetic attempts to defend their pedophile baiting. I saw no accusations of pederasty, racism or pedophilia today. And then you mentioned lawyers and the quiet became palpable. Let’s hope it stays that way for awhile. But I also noticed that neither of them apologized to you or tallskin so who knows.

    The superstitious types really have no future here or in our communities and they’ll figure that out. There are other more political types who support religion because they’re right-wingers and they’ll may stay a little longer. They use superstitin as a tool because cults are always reactionary even if the occasional cultist isn’t.

    BTW heres a link to an article about the growing opposition to Obamas pandering to the cults. I think it’s going to get him into as much trouble as it did Bush. Lets hope so.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Bill Perdue: Good morning Bill,

    Hope you had a good night’s rest.

    I just finished reading the link you sent. This is definitely not a good omen and another definite disappointment. I certainly hope that the opposition continues to mount, because as the author or the article concluded, one it becomes institutionalized with the Democrats, there will be no going back.

    Indeed, the last 24 hours have been relative peaceful, thank goodness, although I did notice that ACIMFH was babbling incoherently well into the wee hours of the morning. I indulged myself in a bit of repartee and banality to keep him amused

    Apparently, Nurse Rached forgot to strap him down securely for the evening and administer his meds and he was wondering around in the corridors of the Psychiatic Hospital in his jammies and fluffy slippies.

    No doubt, he’s been sedated and put to bed, so we shouldn’t be hearing much of anything from him for the next 8 hours or so. ;-)

    The sun is shining gloriously here in west central Florida, although it is a bit on the chilly side. 48 F at 7:52 am.

    You have a great day, buddy.

  • Bill Perdue

    Any one who’s silly enough to give the mormon cult leaders the benefit of the doubt ought to check out the 2007 flic September Dawn . It’s not the best flic to come out of Hollywood but it’s an an eye opener and a good example of what a theocracy would be like in this country. Netfix has it and so do Brainblocker and Hollywood Video.

    The catholic and protestant cults don’t have a monopoly on violence and mayhem. Here are some sites describing the murder of a about 120 plus non-mormons moving west by mormon militia in 1857;

    There’s a decent book on the subject Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows that ought to be in libraries by Will Bagley.

    Religion is the enemy.

  • Bill Perdue

    @Charles J. Mueller: I will, we’re going for a hike in the Valley of Fire (NW of Sn City) if it doesn’t rain. If it does maybe we’ll pay Wal-Mart a visit with some pro union leaftlets and make their day, or not.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about the theocrats. Americans won’t stand for that. And with the radicalizion building from Obama’s non-stop wars from Palestine to Pakistan, and what certainly looks like it’s going to be a depression all the prayers to HE AM WHO AM, insense burners and quija boards in the world won’t help the Democrats, Republicans or the theocrats they pander to.

    Politically, they’re extinct. Stupidly, they haven’t figured that out yet.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    Everyone does know Charles Mueller and Bill Perdue are the same person don’t they? He invented an alter ego so he can pontificate and monopolize these boards with his ramblings. When no one pays attention to him he just invents things to complain about if you want to get back to debating the issues instead of just getting long litanies of whatever vendetta he is in at any moment I say flag his posts when they don’t pertain to the topic at hand. Flag away people so we no longer have to read this lonely mans diary and can actually exchange ideas on queer stuff.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Bill Perdue:

    Oh Bill, I don’t think threats of lawyers has any more effect than the invocation of biblical curses (and I doubt Michael E worried about being stricken with tertiary syphilis – he probably just thinks the comment was rather rude and off-topic, which it was).

    Frankly, I was a bit surprised to see such a man of principle reach for the legal muzzle.
    I think Charles has every right to defend his good name, even though legal means, but that doesn’t quite square with the way he wrapped himself in the flag and his inalienable American right to free speech when I simply told you guys I thought you were being rude and should apologize. You can’t demand that the door be wide open for you and then try to slam it shut when you think you’re the ones being abused.

    But really, I don’t think anyone paid any attention to the threats of a lawyer, and I think you’re overestimating your collective power. Most of us know you two don’t like religion, and that you don’t think people whom you consider outsiders (and people who defend them) belong here.

    Personally, I am just trying to leave you guys to your own devices unless you say something truly objectionable, because I want to be spared hearing your life stories, conspiracy theories and grand philosophies for the umpteenth time.

    And Anderson… you may be right, but I don’t think so. The two of them actually have their own sets of issues and different styles of argument.

  • getreal

    @strumpetwindsock: Your response to Shelley was perfect in my opinion. Intelligent and respectful. Bigots don’t have a good comeback when someone intelligently debates the issues and is mature enough to not get personal. Her post was clearly meant to incite anger and enmity and you did not give her what she wanted. Well done.

  • Jeremy

    @TomInCA: Wow! That’s quite the statement. Here’s my response, though I probably shouldn’t get sucked into this again.

    1. Not gay. Never been inclined in that direction. I sincerely don’t know what it was about my comments that made you think that I’m gay. I’m happily married with my wife of 12 years and three beautiful little girls. Not that it’s any of your business, but I enjoy my hetero luvin’ with my wife as often as I can. Just FYI, I’m not insulted that you would assume that, just puzzled.

    2. I’m for gay marriage, so I’m not imposing anything on anyone, except indirectly, I suppose, for daring to continue to belong to a church that opposes gay marriage. The same could be said of anyone that refuses to leave their Catholic or evangelical church over this issue. I continue to argue for gay marriage with anyone when the issue comes up.

    3. Anecdotal evidence of how phony or brainwashed all Mormons are doesn’t pass muster. You know a phony Mormon, I know a phony gay guy. Doesn’t mean a thing.

    OK, one last note on this. Apparently, this email wasn’t authorized from Salt Lake. This was one bishop in Illinois. At least that’s the word from Salt Lake.

  • Jeremy

    @Charles J. Mueller:
    “Why does that not sound any different to me from “Don’t judge all of us Christians by the actions of one bigoted Pope in the Vatican City.”

    Well, neither statement makes sense. For one, the majority of Christians in the US aren’t Catholic, so of course you shouldn’t judge all Christians by the pope.

    Secondly, the comparison between the pope and an LDS bishop in Illinois doesn’t hold water either. There is one Pope, and he speaks for the Catholic church. There are thousands of LDS bishops, and, at most, they speak for their congregations of, perhaps, a few hundred people. The official stance, as of now, of the LDS church on the Illinois bill is that of no stance. I wish that had been the stance on Prop 8 as well.

  • Jeremy

    Also, I wanted to thank StrumpetWindSock for actually knowing something about Mormonism and having a fairly balanced view of it. If we were all like him or her the world would be a far kinder, far more understanding place.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @strumpetwindsock: You are probably right, I think I’m just tired of reading as you put it their life stories, conspiracy theories and grand philosophies for the umpteenth time myself.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @anderson cooper is my future husband:

    Dude, you’d find something to bitch and moan about, if I posted the Lord’s Prayer.

    Get over yourself.

  • Sebbe

    @Charles J. Mueller – Oh please no prayers. LOL

  • Charles J. Mueller


    ROTF and LMAO

  • Charles J. Mueller

    Oh, what the heck. Why not? :-P

    Our Father, who art in heaven,
    hallowed be thy name.
    Thy Kingdom come,
    thy will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven
    Give us this day our daily bread.
    And forgive us our trespasses,
    as we forgive those who trespass against us.
    And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from evil.
    For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever.

    Pass it on. You will receive a miracle within 24 hours.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    I got my miracle without passing it on. I got listen to Tay Zonday sing “Love.”

  • vernonvanderbilt

    Ugh…”got to”…stupid typos.

  • kerry

    You people are fucking crazy. 1. Most religious institutions in the US are plainly political and should not be tax exempt. 2. Science and religion are mutually exclusive: science does not address nor is concerned with religious belief and religion contributes nothing to science. 3. “Shelly” is definitely a shill. 4. Mormons are no more or less destructive/constructive than any other sect (though I do have a soft spot for the Friends). 5. I suspect most gay people, I am one of them, want only the rights and privledges of civil marriage, and consider it immaterial if any religious organization recognizes the union or not. 6. If there is a threat to traditional marriage it must certainly stem from heterosexual unions considering it’s been a monopoly for all this time and Jesus! They’ve done a hell of a job, don’t you think?!? 7. Yes, it’s great to have a mom & dad, but it’s great to have a mom & mom or a dad & dad because it’s great to have a family. 8. It was quite interesting reading your posts … you folks really do run the gamut. But seriously, name-calling debases the discourse you motherfucking, sister marrying, gay bashing Mormon freaks and you god mocking, cat marrying, faggot loving Progressive morons! 9. #8 is just a little josh, though it was truly interesting and the invective is surely tiresome.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    Well, okay then.

  • anderson cooper is my future husband

    @Charles J. Mueller: I’m an atheist so pray all you want for someone who claims to be atheist you sure seem to talk about god a lot. I have now counted 5 different posts in 24 hours of people telling you to either leave them alone or to stop bothering other posters. If you don’t have an impulse control problem stop attacking people and you won’t have to feel “ganged up on” as you pouted about on another thread. Stick to the facts. You are not an attack dog you are elderly man who can’t seem to control his outbursts and when someone calls you on the carpet you threaten to sue them which is laughable considering your history of stalking and abusing other poster to the post that the site actually intervened. So if you have a problem with me stop obsessing and move onto another vendetta. Or i’ll bet if I look at some other threads you already have.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    Nuuuurrrrrre, one of your inmates is loose again.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    That’s Nuuuurrrrrrse

  • kerry

    @vernonvanderbilt: Well, ok. Sorry to butt in on this spirited discussion. A lot of you guys sound so angry, a lot sound energized & true. I gotta wonder (yes, I know ‘gotta’ is idiomatic slang) if some of these people are even talking to each other or just talking to themselves. Nevertheless, the struggle continues. Jeez, I just used the word ‘struggle.’ Anyway. You folks keep talking to one another & before you know it, someone will say ‘Remember when we used to divide the species into straight/gay? What were we thinking? They were always just people. Writing their books, tending their gardens, building their families, realizing their lives.’ What’s wrong with that? So, Ta! to all and safe and wonderful journeys! (Except ‘Shelly’, aw shit, even all the best to Shelly the Shill!) Peace out and get up and make your lives shine! K

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “Peace out and get up and make your lives shine!”

    That is precisely what we are trying to do.

    Unfortunately, it seems there are too many people who keep pissing on the candle flame. :-(

    Oh. And yes. We are angry.

    If only more people were.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @Charles J. Mueller: They will be. Sooner or later, they will be. I can promise you that.

  • getreal

    @kerry: Great post I agree that these threads bring out many different personalities and temperaments I try to lean more to the energized and true vein but really most of us on here are just trying to bring something productive and useful to the table. Some think the silver lining posts like yours are silly but I think we need more of them. Thank you for injecting positivity in the dialogue.

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @getreal: Opening a post by telling people they’re “fucking crazy” is positivity? That’s a new one for me.

  • getreal

    @vernonvanderbilt: Well I only read her last post that was what I commented on. I do however feel that since churches have decided to start to take political stances and some are even actively attacking LGBTQI peoples they have become political organizations and no longer warrant tax exempt status. For the record I am a christian who is passionate about equality and do not want or authorize my contributions to the church to be used to oppress American citizens. I also flat out found her post interesting and although it was outrageous and a bit insulting to some it did not reek of self interest, self aggrandizement, and hatred like some posts. Thanks for the note though I should red all posts to get the complete context.

  • kerry

    You know, I came on this thing by a kind of accident, and reading from the top, the ‘crazy’ comment was out of line, but it was also pretty much complimentary, & there was, it seems to me, much more vitriol @ the top. Do you guys agree w/each other or not? & yeah, I’m a kind of silver lining guy. But I’m from Colorado (the erstwhile ‘Hate State’) & we have our own shit going on here what w/same-sex benefits for state employees & all. Besides vernonvanderbilt, have you read this entire stream? I’m sure you have, but there’s some crazy shit up there. & Kerry is a guy. It became a girl’s name after the Irish & Scots came to America. & I’m mad as hell, & I vote, & I march, & I talk to people, & I really have to believe that gay folks are gonna be just regular folks after all is said & done. Probably should change my name to Pollyanna. But I just don’t like it. Preaching to the choir, right?

  • vernonvanderbilt

    @kerry: I think one thing you’ll find, if you hang out here long enough, is that people are at one another’s throats as often as they’re encouraging each other. That’s to be expected in any community that fosters dialogue and welcomes divergent viewpoints. Yeah, sometimes people start sounding a little “crazy,” but what you must remember is that one man’s crazy is another man’s rational.

    For what it’s worth, I wasn’t offended by your posts so much as I just wasn’t sure how to take/respond to them, not to mention that the thread seemed to be dying by the time you showed up anyway. By all means, keep contributing. The more opinions we get around here the better off we’ll all be in the long run.

Comments are closed.