“I’m so tired of all this political correctness,” Pete says.
We are at the Eagle in New York City.
“Why do they have to come here? Can’t we have one place that is just for us?”
They are a group of young guys, early 20’s, dressed in bright colors, one carrying a purse and wearing high heels, dressed in a leather Tom-of Finland style hat, carrying a leather paddle, another in a skirt and a leather harness.
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“They’re making a mockery out of the leather scene, out of being a man.”
“They’re just having fun,” Chris says. “It’s no big deal.”
“Right, cuz you’d hook up with one of them?”
“I don’t know, the one in the harness is pretty hot.”
Remember when former Dragula contestants on tour in the UK were turned away from the Manchester Eagle because they had a woman in their group?
And across the globe, a popular LA party for “Dads” and muscle bears refused entry to a trans man because his ID stated his gender as female, even though he presented as male.
I’ve received countless emails and comments on my blog from people who have experienced discrimination for not being “masculine” enough.
Here are just a few:
“I was recently turned away at a gay bar in San Francisco because my boyfriend was in a dress. We were told the party ‘wasn’t for us.’ When I asked what that meant the guy at the door just looked at my boyfriend and said, ‘This party is for men only.’ In San Francisco! I mean, this is supposed to be the gay capital.”
“I was turned away at a bear event in LA because, as the doorman put it, ‘We don’t let drag queens in here.’ I tried to explain to him that I wasn’t a drag queen. I am a trans- man. But even having to say that was humiliating. I’ve earned the right to call myself a man. Why do I have to constantly explain my gender? But he didn’t care. He kept calling me a drag queen. Finally, my friends and I just left.”
“I once got a fifteen-minute lecture at the door of a gay bar here in San Diego for even setting foot in there,” wrote Jess Keys, also known as the artist Xanadu Rocketship, who is a self-identified bisexual woman. Jess performs at local Southern California drag shows and is a well-known drag ally. “I was there to meet my friend after he was done performing. The door guys said things like, ‘Keep your gross hands to yourself. Don’t even make eye contact with anyone. If they get aggressive with you, security is gonna let them. If we could legally ban women, we would. Most men in here hate women.”
I’ve seen how gay nightlife can internalize some of our most negative and unhealthy tendencies. Growing up in a hetero-normative world that often demands men to act and behave according to strict societal rules on “masculinity”, a world where any deviation from these guidelines will get you called a faggot or sissy, or rejected for not being “male” enough, it is easy to feel insecure over our masculinity, to fall victim to internalized homophobia that leads to idolizing often repressive and toxic versions of masculinity, and to shame and oppress femininity and “femme” men.
We label ourselves as Bears and Otters, Dads and Boys, Tops and Bottoms, Masc and Femme. We try to fit each other into these clearly defined boxes that do nothing but limit who we are.
When a guy I was chatting with recently asked me what I like to do in bed, I told him, “Lately I’m feeling more like a bottom.”
“You? But you’re like this alpha male. How is a guy like you a bottom? What a waste.”
What does my masculinity or feminity have to do with my sexual preferences? Why can’t I just enjoy bottoming, or topping, regardless of who I am as a human being?
When someone labels me a bear, they often make assumptions about who I am sexually based on how I look. Just because I’m feeling like a bottom today doesn’t mean tomorrow I won’t be feeling like a top. If you want to wear a dress and a leather harness to a leather night at your local gay bar, I think that’s awesome. If you want to go in full pup gear that is also awesome. But when did dressing like a puppy become more socially acceptable in our community than dressing in drag?
Being attracted to masculine attributes is not a bad thing, and being masculine doesn’t make you toxic. It’s when we use these concepts to judge each other’s worth, to make ourselves feel better than, or to make others feel less than, that there’s a problem.
I’m not here to tell anyone who to be attracted to or who to hook up with. Hook up with whoever you want. That’s none of my business. But what is my business, what is all of our business, is how we treat each other as a community.
When we start refusing people entry to gay or queer Spaces based on physicality, race, gender or their position on the masc/femme continuum, we have a real problem.
Did we really survive the AIDS crisis, political and religious intolerance, hate crimes, and homophobia just to write “masc only” on dating apps?
Are we, as men, as a community, so afraid and insecure that someone else’s masculinity or feminity is a threat to who we are? The world can be a hostile place to queer people, and the only way any of us survive is together. As a community united and strong.
Be the femme-est dom top out there, or be the most alpha bottom you can. Be whatever you want. No one gets to limit you or tell you who you are or how to behave unless you let them. And why on earth would you do that?
Jeff Leavell is a writer who lives between Los Angeles and Berlin. He has written for Vice, Them, Hornet, to name a few. His blog, The Discerning Daddy, ranks as one of the top LGBTQ blogs on Queer Sexuality, Culture, and Politics. You can find more of his writing at jeffleavell.com. He is on Instagram as leavelljeff.
Black Pegasus
So is there something wrong with denying entry to man wearing a dress at a private event or club? Calling it “toxic masculinity” is just another trigger term coined by the regressives on the left. Gay men should be allowed to have spaces for themselves without being forced to share it with women or drag queens.
Apolodorus
God you are dull. Bla bla bla, trigger, bla bla bla regressivas in the left. You left snowflakes out, by the way. You won’t hit alt right bingo.
aaparker
Don’t you get tired of singing the same tune over and over again? What the hell does “regressives on the left” mean, anyway? That is gibberish. The left is fighting for social change, greater acceptance of minorities and LGBT on levels, and bringing awareness to the need for more diveristy. The right wants things to stay static, unchanging, and rigid. So regreserves on the left is just a sophomoric attempt to insult liberals and it shows a complete lack of understanding of the liberal/conservative polarity.
DHT
Your on a gay zine for queers…what are you doing here? we should be allowed to have a space for ourselves without you toxic leather queens bugging us.
surreal33
Thank you! I and apparently more than few other men are sick of force feminization of gay men. If you want to live your life imitating women great! Just don’t expect other gay men to capitulate. Toxic femininity is far more pervasive and destructive than masculinity ever was.
Tombear
We gay men need spaces where just masculine characteristics are flaunted. That’s what I like. I work with women all day long and occasionally want an all masculine space!
janus2005
Agreed.
Coruna2018
Black Pegasus,
You use the same exclusionary points that racists and elitists have used since time began to discriminate, labeling people so that they who want to be exclusionary put themselves at the top of the male heap and keep everyone else. Being with others like ourselves is great. So can being with others different from ourselves. There is room for both kinds of interactions, in the SAME place.
dwes09
“regressives on the left”!
Sorry, but words have meanings, and being regressive yourself does not allow you to bend them to your will. Regressives are backwards looking and backwards acting, as you seem to be with this post.
But you have a point. People should be allowed to have spaces to themselves, and there is a long tradition of that in the woman’s community and the black community as well as the gay community. It makes sense up to a point. But when the leather queens cease to realize that their costumes are as much drag as the queens’, its a problem. Anybody who thinks a leather or rubber sailor suit makes them “more masculine” is out of touch with reality.
MarcoFromBerlin
To be honest, I agree partially with you.
The article says “When we start refusing people entry to gay or queer Spaces based on physicality, race, gender or their position on the masc/femme continuum, we have a real problem”.
Well, I do not agree completely with it. Selection is everywhere. I am not saying that it is always right, but it is everywhere. If I do not dress like “total dark”, I will probably be refused in a club where the dress code is mainly “dark”. Why? Because I am not dressing like the majority is dressing. Once I said to one of the organizers of an old gay party in Berlin, that at the party (Homopatik was called) too many girls were admitted. And I am not against women. It´s just that if a party is thought as gay party for men, you can even admit girls, but in a small percentage. Otherwise it is not anymore a gay party for men. Mixing different kind of people is beautiful on a side, but on the other hand makes a party just a “common” party and not anymore a gay one. I do not wanna see gay parties like “ghettos” but I expect that the majority of the people there are gays. Like if I go to an Indian restaurant, it would be definitely strange to see only German waiters for example. So just to come to a conclusion, I am not against “opening the doors to everybody”, I just say that if you want to organize a party with a theme, you have to make at least a bit of selection.
Gaymer Stephen
Drag Queens usually tend to be gay men so yes that is an issue banning them from queer spaces. On top of that wearing a dress does not make one a drag queen. We are gay…we are allowed to be as fabulous as we want at any given time. Just because you and I might never chose to wear one out doesn’t diminish the masculinity or identity of someone in the community that wants to wear one. We are no better than the hetero folks that have tried to tell us how we can act if we engage in such bs.
Second we should welcome out allies into our spaces as long as they are respectful of our spaces. It is a fine like to walk but it is one that should be decided by a person’s actions and not their Gender.
KevInSD
Anyone who uses terms like “queer spaces” doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously.
surreal33
Please provide just one example of masculine man wearing a dress and high heels?
JAW
KevinSD… I agree with you 100%
The queers have lots of spaces to go. Gay Men need space also.
I am sick of the queers telling the rest of the LGBT community what we will be called, who we must hang out with (unless of course we are white men, old, masculine not Hot etc, then they can exclude us, if they want. We just cannot exclude them.
NeitherGetOffMyBack
For everybody who’s condoning this, disregarding the Queer voice within LGBTQ,
I’m a gay man, but I also PERFORM as a drag queen. I hang my thigh high stilettos black boots right next to my high top sneakers for when I’m at the leather bar. I store my gowns right next to my leather chest harness and latex singlet. My silver metal bracelets go right next to my handcuffs, and my earrings right next to my leather collar.
I don’t identify as either masculine or feminine, because I personally think it’s all bullshit. I identify as ME, because I’m the only one who can be ME. Gay is my orientation, Drag is my art form, and ME is my LIFE.
So I ask all of you, am I disgusting? Am I not worth the time? Am I a disgrace? Am I not allowed the happiness you want for yourself???
IAguilarR
One of the reasons that my son identifies as “queer” instead of gay, is because of this kind of labeling. But why would it be any different for this community, unless people consciously start questioning their conditioning? If you grow up with what “it means to be a man” and even if you refuse part of that label, i.e. not getting married with a house, 2.5 children, a dog and a cat, and a white picket fence, then you really have to work through the rest of it, too; men aren’t allowed to show femme emotions, men aren’t allowed to be ambiguous, men aren’t allowed to be unconventional.
I agree with your other commenter, there should be spaces where gay men can be with other gay men without having to force them to share with women or drag queens… but then again, show me the definitive definition of a gay man; What if a man were to show up in such a space and be too flouncy for some of the other men? Where do you draw the line of acceptability within the gay male community? What if a gay man were to enter such a space and had lipstick on, just lipstick. Would that be too much? See this is where inclusivity has its advantages and forcing labels onto other people doesn’t behoove anyone anything.
Actually addressing this blog post- you are a good writer and made me understand why so many of my gay male friends will only take me into certain bars. They want to make sure that I’m not constantly harassed for being a queer woman in a mostly gay male atmosphere. As someone who has easily moved within communities, observing and interviewing individuals to try and explain it to the baby boomer insulated cis-het community, I don’t want to enter a space where the people around me are pissed that I’m there just by virtue of my genitalia.
Thanks for writing this. It helped me understand this from a gay male perspective while I’m writing a piece on toxic masculinity. Hopefully, our voices will be heard by people open to the message.
DHT
You’re friends are most likely steering you away from the bars where date rape is endemic, rape culture is a way of life among these toxic gay men. A lot of the guys in those creepy bars don’t like to be told “no” and they won’t take “no” for an answer. Gay males drug raping other gay males is a very real thing. The victim doesn’t remember the assault, and in the cases where the victim dies they just say that he did the drugs himself.
JAW
Talking about Toxic environments, sounds like you have never been to a lesbian/woman’s bar.
kindanew
I dissagree. If a club night is for masculine leather men then drag queens don’t belong there just as masculine leathermen don’t belong in a lesbian night. And if somebody is attracted to masculine attributes (which is ok apparently) then why would they be interested in somebody in a dress?
tampaed
I agree 100% Thank you.
DHT
So if you went to a drag show dressed in your leather and they wouldn’t let you in you would be okay with that?
kindanew
If it was a drag show where attendees are expected to dress in drag then yes, a leather man would probably be out of place.
I agree with an earlier poster. I feels like masculine guys on the gay scene are being made to feel like we are are wrong. Like the only reason we are into masculine guys is because of society. I feel like we are being told that our masculinity is all an act which is damaging to ourselves and others. I feel like we are being told we should all start to identify as ‘queer’ and go out wearing lipstick and heals. Everyone else is allowed a space, why aren’t masculine guys?
If your a feminine guy that’s cool but masculine guys are just as valid.
tampaed
Leather bars have been around longer than any other gay “themed” bar. Every one I have ever been to including the NYC Eagle has posted at the entrance a dress code as well as what to expect. Many Other gay establishments also have dress codes that are enforced so go whine at them. There are drag bars, trans bars, lesbian bars (yeah go check them out if you want to get your ass kicked out) twink bars dance bars etc etc. Try going to a dance club and telling the DJ to turn it down because it bothers you! WTF is wrong with having 1 goddamn bar in town for men who feel like drinking and partying amongst other men they enjoy and relate to and not be bothered by drag queens, women or anyone else for that fucking matter? Do we all have to be together all the time for you not to whine and complain? Stop being a goddamn drama queen grow the fuck up and realize we are all different and NO there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, it’s FUCKING FABLULOUS! Just do NOT think you are everyone’s cup of tea all the time and that everyone wants to watch you sling your ruby slippers and purse all the goddamn time! You will not see me going to a Drag bar, Piano bar or anywhere else or in full leather BTW Yes I do enjoy other bars and venues and when I go I will dress and act appropriately WTF is wrong with that?. And this has nothing to do with welcoming allies. The leather community has always embraced the lgbt community and done more throughout our history than any other single lgbt group. Don’t believe me I don’t give a fuck. Check your local leather clubs n see just how hard they work throughout the year collecting money, toys for children, volunteer work etc.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a little separation now and then. And if you want to join in you are more than welcome Just put on some fucking jeans and a t shirt. That’s more than acceptable. If you just can’t and all you want to do is whine and complain then be a goddamn drama queen and stay OUT, that’s exactly why you won’t be welcome!
Doug
I see just as much discrimination and attitude towards more “masculine” gay men from drag queens as the other way around.
Apolodorus
And that makes it right?
Paco
“The door guys said things like, ‘Keep your gross hands to yourself. Don’t even make eye contact with anyone. If they get aggressive with you, security is gonna let them. If we could legally ban women, we would. Most men in here hate women.”
Well that’s a bit disturbing and extreme. Why would most men in the place hate women? It’s not like the women are going to be any competition for getting laid for the night.
Paco
And further…. could you imagine the outrage if a gay man was told those same things at a straight club? There would be daily Queerty articles of outrage.
armandov
I think b/c traditional cruisy leather bars have a certain high testosterone vibe they want to preserve and when groups of women crash the party it becomes a real buzzkill.
I wouldn’t crash some woman’s bridal shower b/c I know they wouldn’t want me or any male there during their “girls night out” so I respect boundaries. Same thing in this situation.
Prax07
It’s only “toxic” to those that want entry, for whatever reason, but are denied, because they don’t fit what the majority want.
If I go to a gay bar, which I don’t usually do, I want there to gay guys. Not women, not trans, not straights. That’s what other, straight, and lesbian establishments are for. If trans people are there I def would be uncomfortable since I’m there for the real biological males, not some mentally sick individual pretending to be one and trying to blend in.
For me those instances are “toxic”, go where you’re the majority and actually wanted, not the one interloping where you don’t belong and then crying about others being “toxic” to you. Why would you even want to go where you’re not wanted. It’s only to cause trouble, no other reason.
Apolodorus
Mentally sick individuals? Please don’t hold back on your thoughts…
I always find it interesting to see, this waterfall of contempt. There is always someone waiting on the sidelines for the chance to spit down at someone who they perceive as lower.
DHT
Leather is a type of drag anyways…most of the guys I have met that dress like that actually have extreme problems with their own masculinity anyways. They generally have jobs that aren’t particularly masculine and have never participated in any really masculine events nor have they ever been appreciated for being very masculine in their lives. Honestly, wearing leather drag to me seems to be the ultimate emasculation…I mean really? You need to do that to have a sex life? All in all they really just look like “masculine” clowns.
janus2005
If I go to a gay bar, which I don’t usually do, I want there to gay guys. Not women, not trans, not straights. That’s what other, straight, and lesbian establishments are for. If trans people are there I def would be uncomfortable since I’m there for the real biological males, not some mentally sick individual pretending to be one and trying to blend in. – totally, totally agree!
Ari
The club has an absolute right to ban women and drag queens or guys wearing dresses. They are creating a theme, an atmosphere for the rest of the patrons. Besides being militant, what would a drag queen want to enter a club where noone wants them?
But I say, if the trans man is dressed like a guy, let him in. He’s a man, let him in.
Donston
That’s a pretty extreme double standard.
Rock-N-RollHS
What someone else looks like or wears shouldn’t be a threat to anyone. When a dress code becomes discrimination can be a tricky and slippery line. . . .
Donston
I suppose this constant desire to prove that you’re a “real man”, the lack of spaces for dudes who are interested in dudes, and the attention desperate tendencies of many drag queens have built up over the decades and led to some having very stark resentments. While many women who wish to always be in spaces surrounded by gay dudes have earned the representation of looking at gay men as pets or service men or being obsessed with “turning” them. So, I do get why some of the tension is there. And let’s be real, while “toxic masculinity” has some legitimacy, a lot of the newly forming “queer scene” and “bi scene” is anti-gay male, hetero worshiping and sometimes anti male masculinity. So, there’s a lot of people that harbor a lot of resentments and anger. It ain’t just gay guys.
Ultimately, there’s a lot of issues that surround “toxic masculinty”. It’s too convoluted for one post or ever a couple articles. I will say that I personally did away with any “scene” quite a few years ago. I understand that it can be very difficult to find a place where you feel you belong, and a lot of us contend with anxiety, feeling ostracized, loneliness, heteronormal pressures, etc. But too many people allow sociology to dictate their sense of self, their friends, their relationships, their instincts. Who has time for that anymore? To hell with anybody’s “scene”. Thankfully, the younger set seems to be moving past that.
Donston
Some guys really do need to check themselves though. I’m getting a lil’ tired of dudes who only want to legit be with a dude and only have substantial romantic passion and fulfillment towards guys say that they’re not “gay” because they have female friends or because they’re not macho. While ironically, many men say they’re not “gay” because they’re not sissies. This is why sociology can be very dangerous, especially for “minorities”.
KevInSD
This piece sums up what is so cringe-induclingly awful about the urban gay subculture. It’s essentially a story of leather fetishists vs. effeminates. Most gay people choose C) neither of the above.
Most gay people don’t publicly celebrate a sexual fetish and every study since the 1970s looking into gendered behavior and sexual orientation has shown that effeminacy is present in a minority of gay and bi males. So most of us want no part of this turd vs. turd battle. We are content to be normal, naturally masculine men (not “masc” or “butch” or anything connoting a fake performance or fetish).
Donston
The club scene in general has been dying for many years. And the younger set are, for the most part, trying to remove ourselves from sociological constraints, from paraphilias and from being fetishized.
KevInSD
@Donston – Amen to that! Whenever I read about some club or sex club or bar closing, I think “yay!” The death of that subculture is the best thing to happen to gay people in a long time. The key is to replace it with something conducive to health, connectedness and happiness.
Me2
Blended spaces should exist, but forcing it is the real disservice here. It’s not like there’s a shortage of gay spaces that welcome trans women, feminine boys, and biological women. However, some queer spaces are designed to cater to certain niche crowds, which are usually smaller. I can see how it would be considered intrusive when people who don’t respect the scene just show up and expect to be welcomed with opened arms just because their queer. The issue of respect is a two way street. If people aren’t allowed their own spaces, aggression and resentment will ensue.
gymmuscleboy
The article is a straw man. It claims to be criticising “concepts of masculinity” being used to “judge each other’s worth” yet it features no examples thereof. All the examples are actually of effeminate men being denied entry to butch-themed parties, which is fair.
inbama
Given the exact same person who’s refused entrance can go home, put on a leather outfit, and be admitted to the bar, it’s not discrimination – it’s a dress code.
It’s no different from The Four Seasons requiring a jacket or countless restaurants near America’s beaches with signs saying “no shoes, no service.”
Heywood Jablowme
Agreed.
Kiwifalling
This article covers a few issues. 1 dress codes and a Venues rights to enforce them. This is a global norm and people can go home and get changed. Women and men only spaces. Do we stop this just in bars. What about enforcing integration in mosques, changing rooms, single sex school, sports teams, why just bars aimed at gay men. Personally I believe there issues in the gay community but this is not the daily mail.
Heywood Jablowme
The author is conflating different issues, as writers of these well-meaning pieces tend to do.
He says “I’m not here to tell anyone who to be attracted to or who to hook up with.” Then he proceeds to criticize the use of “masc only” on dating apps (! – unrelated to the bar problems in the rest of the article), and reports that a potential hookup complained about him being a bottom. Hmph!
The whole thing is written on the premise that gay bars USED to be better about all this but now they’re worse? That’s not true. Gay bars in the ’70s of a certain type had signs saying “No one over 35 allowed.” (Just one example.) The ’80s weren’t better about this stuff, nor were the ’90s. The only thing different now is that the gay bar business as a whole is pretty fragile, because guys hook up on apps now and don’t need the bars so much.
An aside: I like how the writer is described as “living between Los Angeles and Berlin.” (Taken literally, this puts him in the gay mecca of Halifax, Nova Scotia, lol.) But I’d have liked to see him make comparisons between the gay bar scenes of L.A. vs. Berlin.
The headline says “Here’s how we can end it together” (the “toxic masculinity” crisis). What a surprise, the answer is the usual boring, featureless dreck about how we need to stick together as a “community” because… blah blah blah… something… zzzzz.
Donston
I agree that too many of these articles end up being another facet of the “everyone should come together and support each other” brand of mushiness. While everything wrong gets mostly blamed on masculinity, religion, or gay white men. There are definite issues to talk about. But the “gay media” doesn’t really want to get its hands dirty and also wants to keep pushing the general agenda. So, we keep hearing about the same issues.
“Toxic masculinity” most definitely has some legitimacy, and there are some interesting and insightful ways to write about it. But I also think we need to get to the point of just accepting that everyone behaves differently, everyone wants to identity as whatever they wish to identify as, everyone wants to hang out with the people they want to hang out with, everyone wants to have sex and/or relationships with the people they wish to, etc. Stop being so obsessed with pushing this idea of “community”.
ggore
If an establishment presents itself as a “leather bar” catering to and limiting entry to those dressed in leather, even requiring the wearing of leather gear before being allowed entry, I have no problem with that. If they start allowing bachelorette parties, allowing straight women in packs to come in, large numbers of drag queens who are not performing at functions organized by the bar, then at what point does that bar no longer exist as a “leather space”? There is a bar in my home city that used to be known as a leather/levi bar, catering to that crowd, but they now have 2-3 bachelorette parties going on any given Saturday night, a drag show every night of the week, and the majority of the crowd is now “cool straight kids”, and the leather community has completely stopped going to the place because they are sneered at and hear snide remarks from all these people who have taken over. I haven’t seen anyone in leather there in years, yet the decor and advertising of the place still features and mentions that it is a leather bar.
I have no problem going to a lesbian bar if there is an event going on there and they don’t mind having men in attendance, but I also completely understand if the majority of the time they would just rather be amongst other females, and would not want to intrude or try to take over the place. To each their own and specific-interest spaces are just fine with me.
lauraspencer
I live in NYC. It’s a mecca of choice when it comes to LGBT bars…Industry, Flaming Saddles, Therapy, Barrage, Gym Bar, Boxers (HK, UES, Chelsea), 9th Ave. Lounge, Barracuda, DBL, Hardware, The Monster, Ty’s, The Pheonix and on and on and on. All of these bars are open to the general LGBT population.
The Eagle has a dress code. They are 1 bar. There are plenty of places that I can’t dine at, dance at or go to if I don’t fit their code of attire. If I were invited to a Halloween party and the invite said “costume required” I wouldn’t complain and try to force myself into the party if I didn’t want to wear a costume. If you don’t want to dress appropriately and “play the game” of the establishment simply go to 1 of the other 100 places in NYC to buy your overpriced cocktail.
If the Eagle were the only bar in NYC then I think it would be smart to be open to everyone no matter what they wear. But it’s NYC and this 1 bar is simply celebrating a niche community.
barkomatic
It’s terrible that we treat each other with such disrespect and there was no justification for rejecting a trans man at the door.
Most of the guys at the Eagle are just playing dress up anyway. After a fun night out, they’ll put away their harnesses and change into a shirt and tie to go to work. Maybe the following weekend they’ll go to a more conventional gay bar and leave behind the harness altogether.
That being said, I do think that it’s fair to control the type of crowd at an event as long as it’s done in a civil manner. I wanted to go to a lesbian bar to meet a friend of mine there but I was rejected at the door for being a man. She couldn’t convince the bouncer to let me in so I left peacefully.
I can understand a lesbian bar wanting to limit the number of men in their establishment, otherwise it becomes a mixed bar and in some cases even a place where straight guys hang out who are sexually interested in them.
As far as guys showing up in dresses but with leather I think that’s totally fine, because they are men or identify as men *and* they are wearing leather. I’m even fine with a limited number of straight women showing up–but to not allow large numbers in. The problem with straight women is that although many of them are very accepting of their gay male friends, the sexy culture at places like the Eagle can make them feel very nervous–even it’s guys going after each other.
armandov
Re: Straight women: “the sexy culture at places like the Eagle can make them feel very nervous–even it’s guys going after each other.” —- The straight women at the Eagle make me just as uncomfortable.
Josh447
There is nothing in this article to suggest toxic masculinity, defined as aggression sometimes mixed with violence.
This is nothing more than an article about dress codes and sexual preferences, of which are all permissible.
It would seem this is nothing more than a collection of unlaid whiners who can’t follow rules and/or hear the word “no”.
Tombear
I’m not always in the mood to drink my beer with drag queens. Sometimes drag queens are so annoying!
dwes09
And you are not the only one in the bar. So either get over yourself or leave for another place.
CelticBiker
More ridiculously über-PC crap.
When there was only one gay bar in town, everyone used to crowd in there together – safety in numbers, no differentiation whatsoever. That was all well and good in the 50s and 60s, but then came the various subcultures – lesbian, trans, bi, fetish etc.
If a lesbian bar excludes men, that’s fine by me. Ditto with gay bars excluding women, otherwise you end up with a handful of shy gay men and a coach load of totally legless, uninhibited women in a hen party on a night out filling their boots with booze and generally ogling and either embarrassing or harassing the men. I’ve seen it so many times, here in London and most places I’ve been to throughout Europe. Maybe if it’s an afternoon tea-dance, that’s fine.
But those of us into specific looks want our men to be men, to reinforce our own sexuality in all its masculinity – which means the look, the feel and the smell. As a leatherman and biker of 40 years on the scene, I do not want the milieu to be diluted down into some watery soup made up of all and sundry, or at least not unless there’s a dire shortage of gay venues to visit.
Let your drag queens have their clubs and invite whomever they want, but please don’t tell those of us who are proud of our virility to open our haunts to all and sundry – we have a strict dress code and it’s there to be adhered to, for the benefit and enjoyment (visual and sexual) of all who wish to attend.
rray63
Guys, gals, not sure, undecided, I’ve said it before and usually get attacked for saying it. We don’t have to worry about conservative straight people hurting us, we seem to be on a ride that is self-destructive. If we don’t get away from the group think, or to make it easier to understand, we do what we hear and see from our celebrity/politician of the day we will continue to have problems. A good example is Scarlett Johannsen backing out of the trans role because of pressure from our own community. Now, unless something has changed, the movie is not getting made. That’s progress isn’t it? She was told oly a trans person should play that role. By that logic only a straight person can play a straight role, a sure fire way to run the few thinking of coming out back into the darkness of the closet fast. Should Matt Bomer have not been allowed to play his character on White Collar because it was a straight man. Is this exactly what this story was written about, no, but the idea is the same. We need to come together. As for being too PC, that is possible, as much as we want to scream in frustration that it isn’t. So please, stop fighting with each other, we have real enemies in the religious zealots out there, especially in the far right Republican party. We are a community and need to act like one. On a personal level I was attacked by the conservatives almost ten years ago and am still in a way under their thumbs, yet not one LGBTQ group ever even asked me what the problem was, that tells me that our community is not as unified as we might like to believe. I’m still fighting, to no avail. Again, let’s get together and stay together. Stop calling each other names, let the straight people do that if it makes them feel better. I watched and was part of a debate on here the other day, the bottom line of which stated that if you have a preference for certain types of men, you are a sexual racist, give me a break. So if you like Latin men, Asian men and God forbid, white men, but left out black men, you are a sexual racist. This is how PC is going so far it doesn’t make sense anymore. Enough, love you all, though I’m sure I will get attacked. Peace!!!
DHT
What you are asking is impossible. Gay men find reasons to attack each other because that is all we have known in our lives, it is essentially learned behavior and what we are used to. I originally believed that this destructive behavior was exhibited because every gay man was seeking perfection, that everyone was trying to be the “best” gay and wanted that of others. I now know that a lot of gay men just seek to destroy other gay men, not because they believe they are better, but because they believe others are worse. The lengths gay men will go to “prove” this are extreme. These bars that are exclusionary are the epicenters of this type of maladjusted behavior and they need to close. I used to work at a gay bar when I was in college. Shortly after I began working there my coworkers asked me if I would date a black man. I responded that of course I would. I was then told that the only reason I would do so is that I was a “size queen” and the rest of the time there I was ripped on by the other gays because of this. None of them wanted to date me, I don’t even think they cared that I would date a black guy, they just wanted something to use against me. In 30 years of being out I don’t see that anything has changed.
Donston
There’s a lot of issues we can confront that do seem uncomfortably prominent within the “community”: internalized homophobia/gay shame/hetero worship, sexual abuse and other traumas, mental health and self-esteem issues, self-destructive instincts, effemiphobia, misogyny, misandry, self-misandry, self-misogyny and so on. But DHT, most of this thread you have been blindly and broadly attacking “leather culture” and gay men in general with utmost bitterness and no nuance and no sympathy. So, you obviously have many of the same instincts you accuse others of possessing.
DHT
Sure Donston…except I don’t go to these bars, dress up to assert my masculinity, I generally try to get along with and am accepting of all kinds of people, and I am not a predator. Otherwise I am just like them. A lot of the bars are filled with these toxic kinds of guys who are there to prey on other gay men, these bars are closing anyways and they should close, I am glad.
Donston
Well, if that’s how you feel then just continue not going. There’s enough diverse cultures out there that going where you fit in isn’t the most difficult thing to do (though I imagine it still might be difficult in small towns). Almost every scene, particularly most “queer scenes”, has some level of toxicity and exclusivity. That makes me uncomfortable, because I don’t feel constantly surrounding yourself with people who wish to be just like each other is a good thing. However, you did flatout claim that most gay men are rapists or support rape culture. You weren’t even talking about the leather scene. And yes, there are women and fem guys/drag queens who do go on that scene just to gawk or to garner attention.
The whole leather thing has never been it for me. But I guess most would consider me “masculine”, and I’m into a lot of supposedly “masculine” stuff. However, most of my friends are female (with a couple of trans female friends). I appreciate never succumbing to a scene, having a diverse group of friends and also taking my time to fully understand myself. I think all that helped lead to me being a more well-rounded, independent and confident person. Too many “queers” allow their sense of selves, their relationships, their moral to be dominated by sociology and become overly dependent on their one-dimensional social circles to maintain a sense of self or their esteem. That’s an issue that extends way beyond the leather scene. I do feel like it’s getting better among younger people.
Geeker
I try to avoid men that feel they need to wear a costume of any kind to assert their “identity” be it drag or leather which let’s just be honest is just butch drag anyway.
DHT
doubtless
gaypalmsprings
I find it interesting how many macho looking leather guys speak with a high pitched voice and a lisp. Appearances can be deceiving. I don’t know why queer spaces should be so intolerant, with the exception of places that have gay sex (like dark, back rooms at bars). I do get annoyed at groups of straight women going to gay bars to see the strippers – but I wouldn’t ban them. I would just go to another establishment.
Wolfie
A gay bar creates a safe space for gay men. A leather bar creates a safe space for gay men into the leather scene. It seems everyone is entitled to “safe spaces” except gay men. As for “toxic masculinity” peddle it somewhere else sister.
DHT
They want to dress and act like “bad” boys and want to believe they are bad boys too. This perpetuates bad behavior. What you never want to do is go to one of these bars and say “no” to one of them, a lot of them don’t take “no” for an answer. They are exclusionary because they don’t want witnesses.
dakota88
I think what is being missed is if these are typically “cruisy” bars where the primary intention is to hook up. When a female comes or or what looks like a female comes in, it could make the patrons uncomfortable.
The non cruisy bars are a great place for everyone to be welcome. The trick is how to get everyone to know which is which.
The Eagle is about as cruisy as they come so I can def see why someone in a dress would ruin the vibe.
Trans guys have it rough. They should be welcome to come but realize they might not be “welcome” to “play”.
Kangol
Well, straight men and non-trans gay men wear dresses too. Some of the non-trans gay men wearing dresses may desire leather men, and vice versa. I mean, the real world is not so rigid, yet so many on here keep talking as if it is.
inbama
They can make adorable bottoms.
Google Luke Hudson f2m porn, and you just might change your mind about that one incongruent
piece of equipment.
Donston
There are some cute f2m’s out there, and I hooked up with one a while ago and did have a pretty fun time. I’m a mostly top and not even care much about penis, but the substantial, sustained passion, sexual fulfillment and romantic interests- it ain’t there. I’d honestly rather hook up with or try to have a relationship with a masc chick or boyish m2f.
unreligious
The only thing surprising in this typical gay men are so intolerant article, is that someone could not believe the author wanted to bottom. He sure looks like a bottom to me.
inbama
It’s quite funny that the author of a piece complaining about “toxic masculinity” wants to make sure everyone knows he’s a bottom who still passes for butch.
Josh in OR
The one thing we, as queer people, have in common across all letters of the alphabet soup, is rejection from the mainstream. And yet, some (predominantly white, predominantly male) in the community have done their level best to deride and exclude others for not fitting in to some rigid, bullshit, heterosexist perception of what makes a man.
You know what makes a man? It isn’t muscles, or body hair, or sweat. It isn’t punching those with less power to make yourself feel bigger. It isn’t being judgy, exclusionary assholes. What makes a ‘man’ is being responsible, compassionate, respectful and strong in will and spirit. What makes a ‘man’ is standing up for those who are persecuted and welcoming them. In other words, what makes a ‘man’ is being a fucking adult and not acting like your little drug party is somehow lessened because not everyone has a six pack, because not everyone wears a leather harness, because not everyone thinks ‘jeans’ are the extent of fashion.
I am a cis, white gay man. I have trans friends, lesbian friends, femme friends, masc friends, hairy bear friends and smooth twink friends. The thought of other gay men excluding them for arbitrary reasons based of cis-het prejudice angers me…
No one is saying you ‘masc only’ guys need to ‘suddenly’ be attracted to femme guys or trans guys, but…maybe don’t be assholes to them? Maybe remember that we are ALL hated by the mainstream, even when we can ‘pass’.
tham
Don’t really have an opinion on the piece except…I hate how the would “toxic” is being so over used…I mean, can we use a thesaurus?
It’s getting to the point were its becoming Smurf language…
I mean, let’s just change a little, like noxious…
exmil
So, who’s toxic here? The leather community inside their own space – or the stream of drag queens, Trumpkin “queers” who come in to gawk, scream and start fights along with the women in high heels who think it’s “yank a dick night”
The leather community has had a distinct and established identity since the 1950s. We don’t benefit from effeminacy. We don’t need fake gays boorishly lecturing us.
You’re invading our spaces and trampling our rights, no differently than if you invaded Latino spaces and screamed about illegal aliens. Your intolerance is the same play. it’s not diversity, it’s domination.
The toxicity is you, not the actual gay community.
AndThenTheresMax
THIS! What Exmil says!!!
Giuseppe
I think the problem began with SO many gay bars allowing women, times were tougher than they had been and in an effort to be inclusionary (and make more $$$) gay bars began admitting women. The gays that tend to hang with packs of women can also be on the queeny side…I’ve heard the shrieking and seen the behavior first hand. Gay bars went from being 100% men to 55%/45%, and that took some of the dark edge out of it. The dark edge that many gay men (from 1st timers to regulars) historically want to be a part of. Leather bars were supposed to be the BIGGEST venue for that. Now a gay bar is just another bar, why do women want to go to a gay bar anyway?? I have MANY straight friends that go to gay bars with the sole purpose of taking home a drunk, straight girl. I solved the issue for myself by just avoiding gay bars for the most part-the music is sugary Top 40 and the crowd is awful.
AndThenTheresMax
God I miss the days when gay bars didn’t admit women. Remember those days?!!
joeinpdx
Great article. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
ggore
There are several reasons for the phenomenon that is taking place in the gay scene at large. #1 is the rise of social apps. It is no longer necessary for one to strap up in your finest leather gear to go find someone to play with, you can do that in you underwear sitting at home on your phone or your computer. #2 is simply economic, it is expensive to drink, smokers are no longer allowed in bars, and getting arrested for drunk driving is no picnic nowadays either. So, gay bars across the country, faced with dwindling numbers of patrons, have turned to having drag shows every night of the week, allowing bachelorette parties and members of other subsets of the gay community (lesbians, trans, twinks, etc) into their previously strictly defined establishments so they can make money and stay open. In the end this all means that many gay bars are no longer gay bars, leather bars are no longer leather bars, male bars are no longer male bars, lesbian bars are no longer lesbian bars, and on & on. Time are changing.
Josh447
Good points. Rising rents also plays a part in studying open or not. Huge changes over the years for sure.
rray63
DHT – predators? For real? That is one harsh line to take. Do you know what a predator is? Have you been a victim of one? I can only imagine you have to throw it out there like most triggers. Having been, and continue to this day to being a victim, I don’t appreciate it being used that way. But we do have free speech so you can say almost anything you want. Yes, I know free speech is basically for the people fighting government tyranny but everyone claims it these days. But in the future you might rethink it if for no other reason than actual victims. And sometimes predators are not just one person, sometimes government agencies are predators, preying on those (poor people) that cannot fight back.
DHT
yes I have been and I will talk and write about it where ever I want and for as long as I want, sorry to ruin your monopoly on being a victim. I have come to the disturbing realization that there are a lot of gay men out there who think drug rape is a form of sex and they are comfortable with it to the point that occasionally they talk openly about it on these discussion boards. I am here to let them know that I for one hope that they get their teeth kicked in.
DHT
actually, upon rereading your post I think you are the one who is posing. Firstly, considering the anger within my posts I think it’s pretty clear that I am not posing. Secondly, as a rape victim I never try to discourage people from talking about it or denigrate what they are saying or how they are saying it and that is my experience with other men who have been victimized by sexual predators. Finally, the idea that you asserting “Having been, and continue to this day to be a victim” sounds like you are referring to something other than being the victim of a gay sexual predator or are you still being raped?
AndThenTheresMax
Here’s my two cents for what it’s worth and many of you are not going to like it. And I really don’t care. I’m really, really, really sick of going to supposedly “men only” leather bars (Toronto’s The Black Eagle this includes you) and find women partying. I’m really, really, really sick of seeing men in flip flops, carrying purses, board shorts, and all kinds of crap that isn’t, oh I don’t know, LEATHER!
Once again, one of the sexiest movies ever made was Al Pacino’s Cruising. Why is it sexy? In the leather bar scene you don’t see purses, glitter, perfume, make up, drag queens, transmen, or any the thing like that trying to “pass” a leather. You see men doing all kinds of um (I’m trying to be “polite”) things that you would expect in a leather/sex bar. Remember leather and leather culture has been around since the WW1 and it involved men. Not women. Not drag queens. Not transmen. Men who were born with balls and stick shift. Leather needs to return to it’s origins and that’s why this “toxic masculinity” movement is trying to mess up.
Like I said before, if you want to be trans, in drag, carrying a purse, or think masculity is too “toxic” for your delicate sensibilities be my guest. Just go find your fun and stop whining you’re not being included!
StraightnNarrow
Your description of what people do at leather bars is disgusting. I believe in the owner’s right to enforce dress codes but if the patrons in the bar are not behaving themselves and start to indulge in risky acts, the police should have the bar shut down like they did with some of the sleazy bars in San Francisco a few years ago.
john.k
I think what we have here is a very American case of over-analysing things!
Paco
Maybe the leather bars need to close themselves to the public and become “member only” clubs. Let the members bear the brunt of the cost for being so exclusive by having to pay expensive membership dues to keep the place open, yet closed to the public at the same time.
DHT
Welcome to my private club where there will be no witnesses said the spider to the unsuspecting fly?
Lacuevaman
stay home, jerk off and read a book.
alex171
Most of the quotes in the article, as well as the comments, are quite offensive, aggressive and derogatory, and should be called out as such. This behavior is different than the specific issue of men-only spaces. Men-only spaces (including bathrooms) are special, culturally significant, and necessary. (By “men-only” I mean anyone who was identifies as male, it doesn’t matter whether or not you were born with a penis.) They are also protected by our constitution (freedom of association). Women will always demand and should always have the ability to create women-only spaces. I acknowledge the power differential between men and women/gender non-confirming people, and that men-only spaces can be abused and abusive (see article and comments if you need evidence). We need to focus on changing attitudes and behaviors, while recognizing that men-only spaces serve a positive purpose, are valuable, and are worth preserving. Please note this point of view does not and cannot apply to ethnicity, sexuality, disability, age, and other categories of discrimination. Gender is different. If this persoective makes you uncomfortable, then I will and all men should fully support you emotionally, politically, and financially in creating your own “safe spaces” (is any space truly safe?). But leave men-only spaces alone.
HarperT
Seems like there’s a lot of situations where people within the community are dicks to others, but In my experience that happens everywhere. The world just has an abundance of toxic assholes. I don’t necessarily think it’s just a thing that affects the gay scene. See someone being a douche? Call him out or ignore him. Don’t try to think much of it.