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  LEGAL STANDING

Buck Angel’s Estranged Wife Says He’s “Not A Man” To Dodge Divorce Costs

buck angelThe former wife of famed transgender porn star Buck Angel is claiming in court that she cannot legally be forced to pay spousal support because her ex-husband is not legally a man.

Angel, an award-winning sex worker who famously branded himself “The Man With A Pussy” in 2007, has long been open about his decision not to seek surgery during transition. He often used his moniker for shock value and once revealed that he did not seek sex reassignment surgery because he wanted to be “the most shocking performer” in the room. TMZ learned this week that his ex-wife, 55-year-old “body piercer” Elayne Angel, is using his lack of appendage as a legal defense in court.

According to court documents, Elayne is disputing Buck’s requested $2,000 a month because he does not have a penis. Therefore, they were never married and Buck is not technically eligible for spousal support.

The two were married in Louisiana in 2006, though Louisiana technically doesn’t recognize transgender people as their preferred gender unless they undergo sex reassignment surgery. They exchanged vows, but were never recognized as a legally wed couple in the state.

No word yet on why the couple has decided to split, but after hearing this news, it’s safe to assume there’s zero chance they will reconcile.

By:           Matthew Tharrett
On:           Jun 11, 2014
Tagged: , , ,

  • 165 Comments
    • Nowuvedoneit
      Nowuvedoneit

      I think I picked the wrong field to go into if his wife is being hit up for $2000 alimony or palimony?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      in the documentary the wife couldn’t stop saying how much of a man buck angel was. now they are getting divorced and she no longer has to live in his dream. this person thinks they are a man because she had her breasts removed and started working out. she runs around saying she is a man with a pussy. if you are going to call yourself a man you need to have man parts.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: Sorry, but you are 100% incorrect. Gender is not your bits – it’s in your brain.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: i get that fact, the fact still remains this person is female, not male.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @gskorich:

      I’m not sure why it seems to matter so much to you. If the wife originally was happy with the situation, said he was a man, he feels like a man, it doesn’t impact me.

      The real issue seems to be, since the marriage wasn’t legal, but their intentions were obviously clear will the court say that this falls under Palimony or Common Law Marriage laws?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @Cam: make some sense will you. this is a public forum open for discussion. whether these things matter to anyone is irrelevant

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: Apparently you aren’t getting it.

      Gender has very little to do with sexual organs, and therefore are not the defining feature that distinguishes an individual’s sex.

      So, Buck is indeed, male. Because he has no penis does not remove his gender.

      Example: A man is on his way home and gets into a car accident. His penis is severed. Is he then no longer male? It’s just a piece of flesh. It does not define who he is or how he views himself.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: i do get it. gender has nothing to do with genitalia then why are they calling themselves male to begin with. how were they given the wrong body? your example simplifies the situation too much but nice attempt

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: I disagree. It isn’t simple. You are wanting to make the issue black and white. Penis = male. No penis = female. It isn’t the case.

      People are allowed to call themselves whatever they view themselves, as. The reality is that it is not the place of a non-trans person to make such comments when you don’t fully comprehend the struggles trans persons must face just to simply love themselves. It is far more challenging than coming to grips with being gay.

      I highly recommend you start googling and learning about conditions like gender dysphoria. Real medical conditions where people have the wrong sex organs. It happens more often than you realize.

      In fact, there are certain cultures where there are 3 genders, not 2.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: maybe you can help me out. i’m a gay man who likes penis, and i’m out one night. i start talking to this attractive man, how do i ask this person if they were born with a penis.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: i’m good on the understanding of gender issues. thank you. what i can’t understand is if i am talking to a transgender who is telling me they are a gay man and they have a vagina and the want to have sex with me knowing i am a gay man

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: You just ask. There is nothing wrong with asking someone if they are trans or not. There is never a bad time to seek clarity. If they get mad, they get mad. You’ve lost nothing.

      In this situation, if the person is really into you and he is FTM that has not completed the full physical transition, they will tell you – or at least should. Just in the same way if you have a VD you should tell your partner.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: You now made me curious of something.

      Do you fall in love with a person’s body or a person’s mind?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: really ? people don’t wear their minds on their sleeves. like i’m the only one that feels that way, wake up or take a nap. one of the two

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: i was under the assumption it was impolite to ask about a person genitalia but in this case it would be ok and they should expect that right?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 3:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: They don’t wear their dicks on their sleeves, either. smfh

      Look – if you are just looking to get laid, then do it. Don’t attempt to make your point by convolution of the discussion. Your obvious intent in the scenario you presented was one of cruising for sex, not seeking a life partner.

      You made a statement that Buck isn’t male. You were wrong. That’s the end of it.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: the scenario works if i was at a coffee shop as well. i am a gay man who likes penis, i want a partner that has one. thats pretty simple. if a meet a ‘man’ who says he is male i expect a penis not a vagina.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: It is not my problem if you have issues with regards to the sexual organs of the people you choose to engage in sexual activities. That is between you and them. Therefore, one would take the responsibility to know everything they need to prior to engaging in sex. If you can’t or won’t, that shit’s on you not anyone else.

      Stick to the rest stops and glory holes. You should be ok.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: If I cut off your penis and chuck it down a garbage disposal, do you cease to be male?

      There are so many conflicting opinions from the bigots on this site. Some say a trans man needs a penis to be a man, but trans women are always men, regardless of whether or not they’ve had surgery.
      Then others say you need the reproductive capabilities of the sex you are transitioning to (which I always find really odd, coming from gay men).
      And then there are those who keep shifting the goalposts around to wherever is convenient for the current discussion.

      If the anti-trans crowd could come up with a more unified narrative, that would make things easier for everyone.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: lol, very funny, love it when people resort to these comments. lol thanks for making my point

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: You’ve made no fucking point at all – well, besides make yourself look extremely ignorant. Glad I could help!

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: i won’t be cutting my penis off at any time and the fact remains, i was born with a penis. i am considered a man because i have one. you can’t consider someone a bigot because they don’t agree with you. there will always be a different opinion. resorting to calling people bigot and ****Phobic doesn’t get your point across

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: You didn’t answer the question. If you lost your penis to an accident or injury, would you still be a man?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      i love how anyone who doesn’t agree with the trans movement is anti trans or transphobic or a bigot. fact remains it is going to take a lot of time for people, gay or straight to come to terms with people calling themselves a man and having a vagina

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: I’m not pro-trans. I’m not even an ally of trans people. I simply refuse to tolerant willful ignorance.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: your example is too simple and bias

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: No it isn’t. You said if you don’t have a penis, then you aren’t male. If you lost your penis – would you still consider yourself male? It’s a reasonable question to ask.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: in my case i was born a man in a male body with a penis. that makes me a man. if i lose my penis i would still be a man. if you are born a woman in a female body you can never be a man

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nowuvedoneit
      Nowuvedoneit

      Can we discuss the real issue, how a piercer can make enough money to be hit for $2,000 a month palimony ? ;-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: That comment you just made – makes you bigoted. It isn’t a difference of opinion. It’s the fact you know better but refuse to acknowledge it.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: here is a lesson for you, i don’t hate anyone

      big·ot noun \?bi-g?t\
      : a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “if you are born a woman in a female body you can never be a man”

      If you don’t want to be called a bigot, then I suggest you stop acting like one.
      But to address your comment; are you saying that I’m a man forever because I was born male? Or do MTFs get some kind of exception.
      You also seem to have changed your tune from your original post, where you said: “if you are going to call yourself a man you need to have man parts.”

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “or refuses to accept the members of a particular group”

      You’re a bigot, by your own definition :-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B Damion
      B Damion

      So this is a woman posing as a man? I’m confused? Is this a transgender thing or?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: um….”: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc.”

      Do you not disagree with the idea, strongly? That makes you bigoted – because you know better. Hates is not a requirement for bigotry. There’s your fucking lesson.

      BTW – the same shit you say about trans people – is the same sort of thing people said and say about gay people – you were born with a penis that makes you male you should only use it on females….or some other nonsense like that. The really really sad part, is you can’t see your own hypocrisy.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @B Damion: Buck is a FTM (female to male) transgendered person. He is a porn “actor”.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: doesn’t work in this case. this is a conversation. i haven’t not accepted anyone. i am trying to understand some things but that has nothing to do wit acceptance. if that were the case then a couple of you could be bigots for not accepting my point of view

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: It isn’t about a point of view. It is about medical fact you refuse to accept. You say you want to understand, but aren’t understanding anything.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @DB75: “is the same sort of thing people said and say about gay people”

      Yes! I was thinking about this last night; about how the arguments against trans people mirror the ones used to dehumanise gay people. The statements about reproduction, especially, i.e. “It’s not real sex if you can make a baby” compared to “You not really that sex if you can’t make a baby.”
      Ironic, isn’t it?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “i am trying to understand some things”

      What are you having trouble understanding?
      I’m happy to lend you my considerable knowledge on transgender issues and help you on the path to understanding, but I’m having a hard time seeing that comment as honest, when you outright reject the things we are explaining to you.
      Especially when you are making statements that essentially say that I’m not really a woman.
      Why should I believe your sincerity when you are being so willfully cruel?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 4:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @corvaspikenard: Yes ma’am, is it ironic.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B Damion
      B Damion

      OMG she looks just like a man. So wait..does he or she have a D? Is anyone in this story gettin the D? Cause if no one is getting the D then what are we commenting on this for? Is he gay or is he str8 now?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @B Damion: He does not have a penis, no. He decided to not have that surgery.
      No, no one is getting the “D”. Actually just google Buck Angel. You can see his pics and maybe a link to a vid or two.

      Buck Angel is not the “traditional” man, by any means. But male, he is.

      Buck is heterosexual, I believe. Maybe bisexual. He isn’t gay, tho.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @DB75: its comments like this that are confusing because in order to not be gay you have to have sex with the opposite sex. in his case he has a vagina and was married to a woman. call it what you will but in biological terms she is a lesbian

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: So by your definition, I am a gay man, since I have a male fiancé?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: is your finance the opposite sex than yourself

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @gskorich: Your very limited opinion and $5 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but that’s about all it’s worth. You’ve already discredited yourself, buddy.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: He is male and I am a trans woman.
      Am I therefore a gay man in your estimation? Is my fiancé a gay man for being with me?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: are you post op?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B Damion
      B Damion

      @DB75…I just looked him up. No way this was a woman. All my eyes can see is man. Even his voice on youtube sounds like a gay man. This is a man. I can’t believe anything else. I’m sorry. I don’t get the FTM thing. This is a man. He had to have been born a man. No way this was a woman. This is crazy.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DB75
      DB75

      @B Damion: LOL. Makes you look at the world differently, doesn’t it?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: Why does that matter? You said that genitals didn’t matter. You said that if someone was born female they are always female.
      Here’s your quote: “if you are born a woman in a female body you can never be a man”

      So answer the question, please. Do you think I am a man or a woman? Do you think I’m a gay man and my fiancé is a gay man?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      in my opinion you are in a gay relationship. only because of the genitalia. from what i understand are a trans person, you never said if you were transgender or transexual.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: Actually I have a vagina, but according to you, that should be irrelevant, yes?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: if you have a vagina then why did you ask if your fiancé was gay for being with you? hetero = opposite homo = same

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      @gskorich: no vagina, it’s just a reconstructed penis. it’s in the very description of mtf surgery. it’s simply a reversible penis. think i’m gonna walk around telling people i have blue eyes (even though my eyes are clearly brown) and get mad at anyone that dares to question me.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: I asked because it contradicts your earlier statements.
      The amount of dodging and dancing around the issue that you’ve done is impressive though. Have you ever considered a career in politics?

      So according to you, surgery is sufficient to change one’s orientation and sex.
      So if your penis was lost to accident or injury, you would cease to be a man.
      Your basis for determining sex relies solely on the existence or non-existence of a penis.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @masc4masc: There are several MTF urogenital surgeries and I did not have the inversion method. So no, it is not a ‘reversible penis’. Nor does your description address the hormonal changes to the genitals on hormone therapy.

      think i’m gonna walk around telling people i have blue eyes (even though my eyes are clearly brown) and get mad at anyone that dares to question me.

      I suggest you wear coloured contact lenses, or have your iris tattooed, that way people won’t get mad at you when you say you have blue eyes :-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @masc4masc: from what i am understanding, i am doing this all wrong. for me being gay isn’t having sex with a mother man with a penis, it could be having sex with some one who identifies as a man but has a vagina. hmmm so why have male , female, homosexual, heterosexual, man or woman at all? if this were the case then they were born in the right bodies, they just don’t know how they work

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: when people try to little a subject like saying ‘what if you lost your penis” its impossible to answer that in this contact. you are saying you don’t need a penis to be a man but the subject is much deeper than saying if your friends jumped off a cliff would you?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      @DB75: Example: A man is on his way home and gets into a car accident. His penis is severed. Is he then no longer male? It’s just a piece of flesh. It does not define who he is or how he views himself.

      what an asinine question/example. this male still has male sex chromosomes (male: xy, female: xx), and castration doesn’t change that. it simply makes him a eunuch, but still a man nonetheless…which would also apply to anyone else who’s had their parts removed…

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: There are a number of men who were born male who have lost their penis through war, injury, disease or other trauma. Do they cease being men as soon as their penis is gone?
      I don’t believe that they cease being men – but apparently you do.
      A man does not require a penis to be a man. Most men have penises, but not all. Some have micropenis or other afflictions; they are not any less men because their dick is really tiny.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: put it this way, was the lost penis replaced with a vagina?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @masc4masc: “this male still has male sex chromosomes (male: xy, female: xx)”

      Do you own a genome scanner which you drive around in a mobile laboratory?
      If not, then chromosomes are irrelevant. I don’t know what my sex chromosomes and I highly doubt you have been karyotyped yourself.
      Chromosomes are utterly irrelevant in day-to-day assessments of who is male and female.
      Or do you demand the genetic workup of everyone you meet before you decide what sex they are and which pronouns to address them with?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: You’re shifting the goalposts again; which you’ve done several times during this conversation.
      You’ve lost all credibility as you don’t have any consistency to your arguments.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @masc4masc: Have you had a karotype test? I’d laugh if you had the chromosomes you didn’t think you had… you know that at least one in 2000 people are born intersex? There are plenty of women with xy chromosomes and plenty of men with xx chromosomes. There are even chromosomes that are completely different. Perhaps take an anthropology or biology class and you’ll learn that sex isn’t so easily defined like you think it is.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: interesting, i ask if the people who lost their penis’s had them replaced with vaginas and suddenly my credibility is in question? seems to me your argument is mute now and unless i had my penis replaced with a vagina i would still be a man if i lost it. its one or the other. thank you for helping me clarify that.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: so to answer your question again, no you do not need a penis to be a man but you can’t have a vagina either

      Jun 11, 2014 at 6:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: This is where I blow your mind.

      Trans men have penises.
      Testosterone causes clitoral growth – quite a lot of growth – and the result can be a penis that is up to 2-3 inches in length. The clitoris is homologous to the penis – meaning is has all the same structures as a penis. Put testosterone in the person’s body and you have a functional male penis.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @gskorich: Do you peek into every person’s pants you meet? Do you interact with every person’s genitals you meet? If so… good on ya… I guess. Otherwise the world isn’t so simple. I don’t know how to phrase this better, but your social interactions and gendering of people does not depend on what is in their pants. You will never know the genitals of most people you meet (unless you’re a sex worker?). So does the contents of one’s pants actually change your social interactions? No. In your perception of reality, it really doesn’t matter. Men are defined differently than what’s in their pants. The only people that care about it are doctors and their sexual partners.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: admit it, check mate. they can call their clots a penis all they want. i answered your question.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @Selfaware: i answered this earlier. i am a gay man, interested in another gay guy. do i inspect peoples trousers when chatting with them, no i do not. if i plan on sleeping with them then we each have to have certain things. thats for me.

      what i am noticing is how simple people are trying to make complex issues: do you need a penis to be a man? men lose their penis all the time does that not make them a man? in my opinion what makes you a man is your penis and a few other factors. if you were born with a penis and lose it somewhere and don’t replace it with a vagina then you are still a man. if you were born a woman and have a vagina you are still a woman.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: Sorry, but I’ve pointed out the logical inconsistencies in your arguments throughout this discussion, you don’t get to claim some kind of victory.
      First you claimed that you needed ‘man parts’ to be a man: “if you are going to call yourself a man you need to have man parts.”

      Then you claimed that ‘parts’ didn’t matter: “if you are born a woman in a female body you can never be a man”

      Directly contradicting your first statement

      When pressed on the issues, you claimed that genitals then did matter, saying that I was in a gay relationship with my fiancé if I still had a penis: “in my opinion you are in a gay relationship. only because of the genitalia.”

      directly contradiction your statement that the body you were born in defies who you are!

      You’re a mess, mate.

      As Selfaware pointed out, you don’t see people’s birth certs or genitals when you first meet them, so you clearly don’t actually define ‘male’ and ‘female’ on a daily basis by genitals or birth.
      Your arguments are horribly, horribly flawed.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      @gskorich: i guess all we have to do is tell everyone our partners are just really butch women (with c0cks), and that we’re actually heteros. homophobia will be completely eradicated. haha

      @corvaspikenard: no need for a mobile lab because most folks don’t have questions about what sex they are. gender isn’t a question without an answer. the fact that you just stated “chromosomes are irrelevant” (simply because it negates ur argument) is another indication of your complete detachment from reality. i bet if chromosomes somehow negated the existence of male and female, they would magically become relevant to you.

      @Selfaware: cherrypicking! we’re discussing trans, not intersex. also, a guy with male xx syndrome is still acknowledged as a male (hence MALE xx syndrome). same with swyer’s, the patient is still female. lmao @ u guys resorting to “u don’t know what sex u are unless you’ve had dna testing done”. the desperation! lol

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: lol. thanks for the blow by blow. fact remains. I answered your question. yes you can be a man if you lose your penis as long as you don’t replace it with a vagina. gnight

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      will one of u pro-trans “delusionists” please explain why this man had to come out as GAY…since gender is all a big mystery and mtfs are “no different from infertile women”:

      http://www.queerty.com/legendary-new-york-dj-outed-encourages-hip-hop-artists-to-come-out-in-new-psa-20130918

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @masc4masc: Chromosomes don’t determine ‘male’ and ‘female’. In the world of science, ‘male’ is defined as ‘having small gametes’ and female is defined as ‘having large gametes’.

      However you failed to address the points about addressing people. How do you, on a daily, regular, real-world basis, decide who is male and female and what pronouns to use for them?
      Please enlighten us as to how you determine the sex of a stranger on the street, or a co-worker or service person at the supermarket?

      You’re not going to answer, because it breaks your argument. You always avoid this issue.
      Cognitive dissonance is a pain, isn’t it? :-)

      Oh, and by the way, you can be XY and female AND give birth:
      http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2007-2155

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @masc4masc: I totally agree with you. it’s like we are expected to live in their heads and know what they are thinking. I’m 6’2 240 work out beard. could I wake up and call myself a woman and a lesbian. how does that work?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: When you see a person on the street, how do you decide what sex they are?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “could I wake up and call myself a woman and a lesbian”

      You seem to have no understanding of what being transgender is like. You don’t just wake up and say “OK, I think I’ll be a woman and a lesbian”, being trans is a life-long thing. Gender identity is set in stone very early, as is sexual orientation.
      While you operate under the idea being trans is some kind of midlife crisis experience or random whim, you will always fail to understand our issues.
      Being trans is as real as being gay.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Manchester
      Manchester

      That’s funny, most men I know don’t have a “pussy”. Give me a break.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: really? I mean really. you can take questions to the simplest level and expect an answer but I use an example and I don’t understand the transgender experience? try harder next time.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: I note you’re still dodging the question :-) That’s OK though, have a good night!

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @masc4masc: You used chromosomes as a way to define a gender, I’m saying that it’s a flimsy, useless argument. If you’re aware that chromosomes don’t define sex, then why use it as a way to demean trans people? There is no true definition for sex. Gender /= Sex either. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your argument?

      Chromosomes can’t define it. Shown in the examples you used yourself.

      Sexual parts can’t define it. There are plenty of intersex people out there.

      Sexual reproduction ability doesn’t define it. There are plenty of people without that capability.

      Hormones can’t define it. There are plenty of hormonal variances and you go through changes as your life continues.

      Biology says that sex can’t be defined neatly into two different categories.

      Gender is different yet. Gender is a set of culturally defined behaviors. Third genders and transgender people have been around as long as recorded history. To not accept that is not only an uneducated claim, but also ethnocentric.

      Resorting to demeaning claims like “the desperation” aren’t constructive to an argument. I highly suggest taking a cultural anthropology class. You may be intrigued by what you may learn.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: I don’t decide what sex people are. really doesn’t come into play. I’ve explained that already. in fact. I live in so-cal. lots of diversity here. there is a person I am assuming is trans who works as a cashier at target. very obvious she is trans. very nice person. all I think when I see them is how nice it is they work for a company who supports them. does it matter to me what orientation they are. no.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @corvaspikenard: If you are sincerely trying to understand and not go out of your way to belittle trans people. Consider this question thoroughly: How do you decide on a daily basis whether to call strangers “he” or “she”?

      I am not trying to tell you that your concept of reality is wrong or belittle you. I just want to raise self awareness and try to help people understand their own actions.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @gskorich: Oops… my last comment was directed at you, not corvaspikenard…

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @Selfaware: and one day I’ll have a child and dress them in yellow until they tell me their identity.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @gskorich: Also, if you don’t decide what sex people are, then good for you. If that woman you speak about is a trans woman, then I am happy you are addressing her as such. I don’t care what sex you perceive people as, just as long as you don’t demean them by it and treat them as the gender they identify as.

      You could always let the child choose how to dress themselves and support them as a parent that loves unconditionally.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 7:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Qjersey
      Qjersey

      @Manchester: Really? OMG I can’t tell you how many bottoms have said f*ck my p*ssy or c*nt. Especially the dirty piggy ones.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “I don’t decide what sex people are.”

      That’s odd, all through this thread you’ve been deciding the sex of people and even defining your own masculine attributes as a counterpoint to being female.
      So I’m not buying your statement that you don’t make assumptions about people’s sex.
      You’ve already said that you do and that you assume their genitalia as well.

      Please just stop jerking us around. You don’t have any consistency to your views and they are demonstrably wrong.

      How about you just accept that trans people are what they say they are and leave them to it?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @Qjersey: Lol yeah, my thoughts also. When I was dating guys pre-transition, there were a lot of comments like that. Recently I even heard “shitoris” from a friend!

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Qjersey
      Qjersey

      …and FYI: The surgical options for “bottom” surgery for trans men are varied and none create anything like a true penis, so many trans guys have the “top” surgery as Buck did and leave the plumbing alone…though testosterone does kinda make it a “mussy” as the appearance does noticeably “evolve” and the enlarged clit does kinda look like a really small penis (thank you x tube)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: how about you stop grading posts? this is a forum for open discussion. people are people. that’s fine but we disagree on what makes a man a man.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “Open discussion” includes criticising your inconsistencies, sorry. It doesn’t mean “I can say stuff that is wrong and everyone leaves me alone” – which is how you seem to want it to work.

      Yes, we disagree on what makes someone a man. Having lots of FTM friends, I definitely disagree with you. They are definitely men – and better men than those who would deny people’s identities out of ignorance.

      How about you go and meet some trans guys and broaden your horizons? If you truly want to learn, go to the source :-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hex0
      hex0

      Buck Angel is biologically female, fact. Taking testosterone only affects some aspects to create a sort of pseudo-male exterior.

      They do not have a prostate, penis or scrotum but instead ovaries and a vagina. “Trans men” cannot have penises, a rolled up bit of skin taken from your arm is not a dick.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • darkanser
      darkanser

      I’ve been reading this very strident discussion about man-parts making one a man, brain versus genitalia, yada,yada. Clearly everyone has their own opinion. I’ll just add that I don’t think a transgendered person goes through such a physical transformation — removing his penis or breasts, taking copious androgens, etc. — at a whim. For any man to willingly remove his penis, I believe him when he says he was born into the wrong body. I do recall, however, a man who had undergone gender reassignment but was then unhappy with what he had done because he eventually discovered that he was only attracted to gay men. This is not a black or white issue in human terms – perhaps in legal terms. In human terms, there’s a huge gray area. Considering the tenor of this conversation, I cannot imagine where intersexed people or women with androgen insensitvity would fit in to this discussion. I was actually surprised to learn that Buck Angel had a wife — considering all of the porn I’ve seen him do has been with men.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • darkanser
      darkanser

      @B Damion: Go look at some of his porn videos and shock yourself some more….;-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @darkanser: “For any man to willingly remove his penis, I believe him when he says he was born into the wrong body.”

      God, I always hated the thing. I had an extra-special hatred of the testicles though, as they were responsible for pumping that poisonous testosterone into my body
      I guess that’s just the thing that many non-trans people have issues understanding; how wrong the body feels prior to transition and how utterly correct and normal it feels after transition.

      When we got back from Thailand, it was Xmas (which is in summer in NZ). I remember being excited to go to the beach, so I could walk through the surf in a bikini for the first time.
      What struck me was that it didn’t feel magical or transcendent or anything like that; it just felt normal. For the first time I had no shame or disgust over my body and I finally knew how most other people felt :-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      @corvaspikenard: @Selfaware: so male and female don’t exist, yet trans does. how convenient. i’m sure both of are equipped with tons of cherry-picking techniques and intellectually dishonest material from ur trans forums and support groups, but both of u have done nothing but present word games and medical abnormalities to try and prove ur delusions as fact. to say chromosomes are “irrelevant” and have nothing to do sex is flat out false. it’s high school biology/sex ed: females have two of the same (xx) and males have two different (xy).

      most people don’t do paternity tests to know their father is their father. even if they did, paternity testing can only determine an over 99 percent (but not 100 percent) degree of certainty at highest. so there could still be a less than 1 percent chance the result is wrong. let’s see a deadbeat dad try using that as an argument in court. that’s basically the equivalent of what the two of u have been doing here.

      now riddle me this: why did this MAN have to come out as GAY after being caught with MTF TRANSSEXUALS???

      http://www.queerty.com/legendary-new-york-dj-outed-encourages-hip-hop-artists-to-come-out-in-new-psa-20130918

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @masc4masc: I see you avoided the subject Selfaware and I both raised, but that’s OK, because your silence on that topic speaks volumes :-)

      The fact remains that all of the people I interact with on a day-to-day basis know me as female and think of me as female – as evidenced by the amount of “when are you getting pregnant?” questions and such.
      Does that annoy you?
      Do you want to bust into these conversations and yell at everyone that I’m “really a man”? Does it piss you off that I’m “getting away with it”?
      What’s your real issue?

      now riddle me this: why did this MAN have to come out as GAY after being caught with MTF TRANSSEXUALS???

      Have you though about, I don’t know… asking him?
      How on earth would I know what’s going on in his head?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nowuvedoneit
      Nowuvedoneit

      @corvaspikenard: Are you from New Zealand? I use to live there awhile back. Lived in Welly for a bit, Thorndon, then Stokes Valley. I miss it sometimes.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @Nowuvedoneit: Yes, I’m from NZ – I live in Wellington :-)
      Thorndon was where I transitioned, oddly enough! Had a little apartment on Aitken St.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nowuvedoneit
      Nowuvedoneit

      @corvaspikenard: I forgot the name of the street I lived on, it was like hiking everyday up to the flat.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 8:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BadgerLord01
      BadgerLord01

      @hex0: This is true. A rolled up piece of skin is not a penis, which is why many trans men don’t have bottom surgery. It is not a suitable substitute for what many want. I, for one, do not want a rolled up piece of skin. But medically there isn’t anything else for us. I’m sure if there was a way to transplant male genitalia, not just the penis but everything, there would be lines out the door (after the funds for such a surgery were acquired).

      Some people don’t want any surgeries, top nor bottom, simply starting testosterone is enough. The changes are enough and permanent. Except shark week if you haven’t had a hysterectomy and oophorectomy, that shit SUCKS. (All you cis guy be grateful you don’t bleed from your dicks for a week, and if you do… See a doctor…)

      The people that flip flop from trans to “oh I’m just gay,” or “I just wanted to see what it was like.” Its so stupid and demeans the people who are truly struggling with their gender identity. Its those people that back up the “trans people are just confused” argument. We aren’t confused. Why would we choose to be something that most religions, political parties, families; people in general see as wrong to the point that they might kill you? Why would we choose to be like this?

      It is just who we are and we have to fight for who we are because, really, right now, very few are wiling to fight for us/ with us. Shit, Chaz Bono comes off as an misogynistic asshole half of the time.

      hmmm I rambled…

      In relation to the story, Buck won’t see a dime. Even in the law changes in LA, they don’t have a marriage certificate, common law doesn’t/didn’t apply at the time, nor now. I don’t know if they did anything in Mexico, I don’t think they did… Even if the laws changed tomorrow. There was no marriage, there for no palimony.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 9:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrianZ
      BrianZ

      I don’t understand why it is so necessary for some people to not allow others to define who they are, what their truth is. I imagine these are the same people who have internalized the self-hate and want to project it out.

      Sad, really. Well, not really. I imagine the hell they burn in is of their own making.

      For me it’s simple: I respect your right to be directly up to the point where it intersects my right to be.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 9:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      @corvaspikenard: no, u just don’t agree with my answers, and that’s fine, but i have answered u. now, ur answer to my question is that i should track down this dj and ask him personally, which is also fine. i’m not gonna press u on it because i know an honest explanation that answers the direct question would be a threat to ur very existence. ;-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 9:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @masc4masc: I’m not sure if you read my comments or not. Trans is not a sex. Transgender people are people who transition from one gender to another. Not one “sex” to another. My argument is that sex is not the same as gender. As close as 1 in 100 people in the world have an intersex condition: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

      The importance in defining this is the fact that sex and gender are not one in the same. So, yes, male and female exist and many forms of intersex exist. Trans also exists and can exist at the same time males and females exist. Trans is about gender identity, not sex. Gender is something we culturally create. If you’ve taken any anthropology class, you would understand this. It is not only ignorant of reality, but also ethnocentric considering that other genders (remember, not sex) exist in other cultures. To make your claims is to be completely ignorant of what “gender” is and what “sex” is.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 9:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @masc4masc: Nope, you didn’t answer.
      We both asked “how do you tell the sex of strangers on the street” and you were silent. I even predicted you would ignore the question because it was too hard for you to answer…
      And my prediction was correct :-)

      As for you DJ chap?
      Clearly he must think trans women are male, or he thinks his homophobic pals will see them as male. Or he’s gay and trans women were his ‘gateway’ to his sexuality.
      Or the person he propositioned didn’t identify as female.
      Or a number of other reasons.
      But to know for sure, you’d need to ask him. Whatever the case, the opinion of some London DJ is hardly earth-shattering. Perhaps if he was a member of the American Psychiatric Association or the American Medical Association (both of which support trans people, btw) then his opinion might be relevant.

      Seriously, did you expect some random DJ getting blown by trans sex workers to prove any kind of salient point? If that’s all you’ve got, then trans people have nothing to worry about :-)

      Jun 11, 2014 at 9:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      @Selfaware: “My argument is that sex is not the same as gender.”

      this is exactly what i mean by word games. u can continue to go around in circles without my help.

      @corvaspikenard:
      “Or he’s gay and trans women were his ‘gateway’ to his sexuality.”

      interesting. and why would trans “women” be a “gateway” to homosexuality?

      and as far as just looking at people, i never said there is no such thing as passable trans. there are some men that identify as men that can dress in drag and look like women too. i admit i could be calling men women and vice versa (though men have different cranial structures that are usually a dead giveaway, i.e. laverne cox), but their dna will tell the truth even with all the wigs, dresses, makeup, hormones, nipping and tucking prostitution can buy. when u pass on, a coroner will be able to tell u were born male. back when this country was just white or black, there were black people that could pass for white, but that didn’t erase their african ancestry. looks can definitely be deceiving, but the truth is still there in some capacity. and fyi…psychiatric and medical associations also acknowledge a lot of factitious disorders because they make TONS of money off them every year.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @masc4masc: “interesting. and why would trans “women” be a “gateway” to homosexuality?”

      You know, putting ‘women’ in quotes is just plain rude. If someone identifies as a woman, can you at least do them the courtesy of referring to them as one, even if you don’t agree with it?
      To address your quote though; he probably didn’t see them as ‘real’ women or something like that, perhaps he saw them as ‘gay lite’ because they look like women but have a penis.
      Hell, who knows what’s going on inside the head of some sketchy DJ with a trans fetish who can’t admit it until busted getting BJs twice?
      As I said, hardly earth-shattering and shockingly irrelevant to anything at all.
      Or are sketchy London DJ some kind of sex/gender experts?

      i admit i could be calling men women and vice versa

      Excellent, that’s all I was asking for. Wasn’t so hard, was it? :-)
      If you’d been calling someone ‘she’ for 10 years, then found out they were born male, would you switch to referring to them as ‘he’?

      Jun 11, 2014 at 10:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Selfaware
      Selfaware

      @masc4masc: “u can continue to go around in circles without my help.”

      It seems you are incapable of understanding this. I wish I could help you understand, but if you are unwilling to attempt to understand basic concepts there is no educating you. I would strongly suggest taking an anthropology class. It’s no trick, I assure you. Learning about other cultures helps you define and understand your own. It would even help you understand that gender /= sex. If you truly believe that my argument is “going around in circles,” you are simply mistaken or incapable of understanding.

      Jun 11, 2014 at 11:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @Selfaware: I think the problem is that hate isn’t rational. He isn’t capable of understanding because he harbours too much hatred towards trans people.
      For some unknown reason he is invested in tearing down trans people and trying to make us feel like shit. This isn’t an ordinary misunderstanding, where someone just has mildly differing views; this is a man who is committed to trashing the identities of transgender people and making a mockery of our existence.

      You know, I only had two dreams when I was 5 years old. The first was to be an astronaut and the other was to be a girl. The dreams of being an astronaut turned into wanting to be an artist by the time I was 10, but I never gave up wanting to be female. Never.
      I may never have XX chromosomes and I may never give birth, but what I have is close enough. While I don’t believe I am ‘delusional’ and I believe that I am much closer to female than male, if I am wrong then I might as well die.
      If masc4masc is correct and I’m just a ‘delusional’ and ‘mutilated man’, then I cannot continue living. I would rather die than be male.

      Thankfully I recognise his hate for what it is and I don’t believe a word of his nonsense. His agenda is to hurt and humiliate trans people and I will not bow to the likes of him.

      It’s ironic; it was only twenty years ago when people still openly talked about homosexuality as being ‘delusional’ and such. It amazes me to see the same rhetoric used against trans people.
      I guess sometimes the bullied just want to become bullies themselves.
      Shame on them.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 12:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lefty
      Lefty

      @corvaspikenard: @Selfaware: I very rarely read the comments under any trans stories on here now because of the usual trolling from moronic bigots who are apparently gay (which makes it all the more depressing). At the end of the day, it is just irrationality (or plain old trolling) and so appealing to whatever intelligence they might have is always going to be a lost cause. The old saying about never wrestling with pigs springs to mind. x

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      @corvaspikenard: I remember being told we were “antisocial.”
      “Incapable of real love.”
      “Perverts.”
      “Woman-haters.”
      “Child molesters”
      “Unable to reproduce and having to recruit.”

      But “delusional?”
      Never heard it.
      Maybe that’s unique to New Zealand.

      I am curious, Cora, when you make a statement like, “God, I always hated the thing. I had an extra-special hatred of the testicles though, as they were responsible for pumping that poisonous testosterone into my body” – what do you imagine any nontrans person thinks?

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The End
      The End

      Seriously fail to understand this. I read through all the arguments on here which basically just ended up trying to pick holes in each other statements to prove a point. What I really don’t get is why there is now 20 types of ‘gender’. If you wanna be called a woman then fine be called a woman. But then you don’t need a separate fence in between you and people who were born women either be referring to yourself as a trans woman.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 5:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dxley
      Dxley

      These comments are just the best.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 6:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sejjo
      sejjo

      @Manchester: “That’s funny, most men I know don’t have a “pussy”. Give me a break.”

      Then you really need to get out more, friend.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 8:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dot Beech
      Dot Beech

      A marriage is only valid if it was validly made in the jurisdiction in which it was made. It does not seem that this marriage was valid in Louisiana, the jurisdiction where it was made, so legally they’re not married. That makes Buck Angel’s claim for spousal support very, very weak. And regardless of how one feels about gender issues, Elayne Angel has a valid legal defense against Buck’s claim for spousal support. If Buck had wanted to secure his rights to a future spousal support claim, he should have done his homework in advance and gotten married in a state that would recognize the marriage.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 10:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @Selfaware: if gender /= sex then what is a person transition to. should they just be called transgender and leave it at that? if the person is calling themselves a transgendered woman then they open the door for a lot of things. one of them is assuming they are transitioning from man to woman. since a woman is implied then women genitalia is also open for discussion. the simple act of calling one self a woman or man is not enough

      Jun 12, 2014 at 11:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • aliengod
      aliengod

      @DB75: You’re argument is silly. Of course sexual organs determine sex. This person has a vagina and is a female. Not a man. Can never be a man.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 11:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @aliengod:

      If sex organs determine sex, then somebody who has gone through the surgery would be the opposite sex now wouldn’t they?

      Jun 12, 2014 at 12:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • masc4masc
      masc4masc

      @corvaspikenard: oh i promise it wouldn’t take me 10 years to figure out. some of ur statements have actually helped me understand something though, particularly these two:

      “God, I always hated the thing. I had an extra-special hatred of the testicles though, as they were responsible for pumping that poisonous testosterone into my body”

      “If masc4masc is correct and I’m just a ‘delusional’ and ‘mutilated man’, then I cannot continue living. I would rather die than be male.”

      it seems many aspects of a male trying to become female are much like gays undergoing conversion therapy.

      – both happen when one simply can’t accept what they are.
      – both use very extreme methods to transform themselves into what they’d like to be.
      – both are clearly motivated by a lot of self-loathing and inner conflict.
      – the most each can hope for at best is really just indefinitely being stuck in some undefined state, like nothingness.

      the parallels are uncanny. also, i never called u a ‘mutilated man’.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 1:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jayj150
      jayj150

      @masc4masc: ‘Conversion therapy’ and ‘Sex Reassignment therapy’ are two sides of the same coin: they both try to get gay people to conform to a hetero-normative society. Conversion therapy tries to change gay people’s sexual orientation(the way they feel, their ‘inside’); Sex reassignment therapy tries to change their appearance(they way they look, their ‘outside’). But both come from an extreme internalized homophobia and a necessity to conform. It’s not a coincidence that some of the most vocal homophobes are both closeted gay men and “straight transwomen”. Forget about tr#nny; the biggest insult to a transsexual is calling them gay, because it reminds them of what they really are and have spent so much time and energy trying to change. It’s not a coincidence either that some of the most virulent homophobic countries in the world, such as India and Iran(where boys as young as 13 can be publicly hanged for being gay)are also very trans-friendly. Iran actually subsidizes sex-reassignment surgery; yes, the same country that kills gay children also pays for transsexuals’s transition. In fact, MANY gay men have admitted to pretend to be transgender and allowed the government to force sex-reassignment on them in order to save their lives. (So much for the “we have the same enemies and struggles so we must keep the T with the LGB” argument, right?)

      It’s crazy to me that while there are countries where gay men are being forced to undergo sexual mutilation in order to save their lives, this issue is hardly even mentioned in sites like Queerty, whilst spending about half of their effort discussing the evils of using the word ‘tr3nny’.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 2:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @jayj150: does anyone else find it odd that this person is telling us that the worst thing you can call a transexual is gay. again, why are these people, can we still call them people, part of the whole LGBT. they need to be on their own and fight their own fight if they have decided that gay is an insult

      Jun 12, 2014 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vive
      vive

      I suspect gskorich and masc4masc are new aliases for another guy who used to troll this forum and was eventually banned as far as I can tell.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @vive: i have my own opinion but for you to say we would be banned is crazy. why? because we have a different opinion? this is an open forum, this isn’t your personal bolt. people are going to stay stuff people don’t like, thats what happens when you get different people together. deal

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @masc4masc: There is ‘conversion therapy’ for trans people as well, to try and make us happy with our birth gender.
      It has the same success rate as gay conversion therapy – i.e. it doesn’t work – and it just makes a miserable, self-loathing human being who wants to die.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “does anyone else find it odd that this person is telling us that the worst thing you can call a transexual is gay”

      2/3rds of trans people identify as gay, so where on earth are you getting that from?
      I have no problem with people calling me gay, because there’s nothing wrong with being gay. They would be wrong, but I’m not offended in the slightest.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @inbama: I’ve been called all of those and more :-) It appears that there are indeed parallels in LGBT experiences after all.

      “I am curious, Cora, when you make a statement like, “God, I always hated the thing. I had an extra-special hatred of the testicles though, as they were responsible for pumping that poisonous testosterone into my body” – what do you imagine any nontrans person thinks?

      Most people are able to imagine what it would be like to go through the wrong puberty and empathise with the pain that trans people deal with.
      Women especially are able to easily grasp what trans women go through. Gay men have more trouble, because some can’t imagine not wanting a penis.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: jayj150 said it in their post

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dxley
      Dxley

      The wife is right. Buck is not a man. The definition of “a man” is “an adult male”, and having a vagina doesn’t qualify as male. It’s just that simple!

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “jayj150 said it in their post”

      I don’t read anything jayj150 says. It is clearly a troll.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • James Hart
      James Hart

      Boy, with this guy you get the best of both worlds. :-)

      Jun 12, 2014 at 5:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TomMc
      TomMc

      Gender/sex? That’s a no-brainer: If they have, or have had, cooties then they’re girls.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TomMc
      TomMc

      Q.E.D.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeriHew
      GeriHew

      @Nowuvedoneit: Maybe Buck is just trying to get some of his money back. Because he’s claiming that Elayne secretly moved $500,000 out of their joint account.

      Given how naive a lot of porn performers seem to be when it comes to hanging on to their money it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he was putting pretty much all of his porn earnings in that joint account and then she simply decided to clean him out.

      And given how transphobic she seems to be being now I’m wondering if she hasn’t just been scamming him all along.

      Anyway, I know that he is legally male according to his US Passport and Driver’s License, and quite possibly his birth certificate too by now. I don’t know if the Louisiana Court would be able to just ignore those legal identification documents. I certainly don’t think they should be legally able to do so. But the variance in the law from state to state in the USA is just crazy, so maybe they can???

      Jun 12, 2014 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nowuvedoneit
      Nowuvedoneit

      @GeriHew: I did not think of the porn money. It’ll be an interesting case to see where it will go, my hunch it’ll be out of court settlement.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 6:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jacob23
      Jacob23

      There should have been a trigger warning on this story. And especially on that pic. *Shudder*

      Better yet, why not have a Queerty spinoff website where all thes “transgender” stories can go? LGB people are not gender confused and do not want to inject ourselves with hormones or surgically alter our bodies. We do not want to be castrated like the part of the “transgender” community called the “neutrois.” In fact, throughout history, LGB people have been forcibly subjected torture such as hormone injections and castration. It’s an insult to every LGB person and to LGB history to continue to post these stories here.

      Jun 12, 2014 at 10:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nf0603
      nf0603

      Can a trans person politely answer something I’ve always been curious about, and Buck Angel is a perfect example of this.

      Why is that when someone transitions to female, they *have* to get rid of their penis, but yet the majority of women I’ve seen who’ve transitioned to men don’t consider a penis something that automatically needs to be added? I don’t understand why trans men are fine keeping their vaginas but trans women consider a penis a liability. Why is there a difference when it comes to this?

      Jun 13, 2014 at 12:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @gskorich: “doesn’t work in this case. this is a conversation. i haven’t not accepted anyone. i am trying to understand some things but that has nothing to do wit acceptance. if that were the case then a couple of you could be bigots for not accepting my point of view”

      Do you not read your own words? Is it REALLY lost on you how you mirror homophobes almost EXACTLY? Homophobes are ALWAYS telling us that not accepting their intolerance makes US intolerant and we are bigots for not accepting their bigotry or as they word it “point of view”. Is the irony really really lost on you?

      Stop being such a hateful monkey!

      Jun 13, 2014 at 7:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @nf0603: I am not a Trans* woman but not all Transwomen choose have lower surgery. I am not sure why you think they do.

      Jun 13, 2014 at 7:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeriHew
      GeriHew

      @Jacob23: The problem with your separatist views is that you are dealing with human beings not black, white, grey, pink, green and yellow tennis balls. And therefore there are blurred lines and all sorts of colours floating and bouncing around everywhere.

      Buck Angel isn’t just transgendered you see, he is also totally bisexual. And his estranged wife is apparently bisexual as well. So, that makes them Queer People see. And this website is called Queerty is it not?

      See. Separatism doesn’t work. And with all due respect to you Jacob, minority monosexuals should not blame trans people for the crimes of majority transphobic monosexist monosexuals against any other kinds of Queer People. Because when they do they become transphobic monosexists too – which is only one small step away from being homophobe.

      Jun 13, 2014 at 7:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeriHew
      GeriHew

      @nf0603: Not all transwomen undergo, or even want to undergo, complete gender reassignment. Some are happy to keep the whole male genitalia, others may keep the penis but have the testicles removed. If she also wishes to keep her penis fully functional as a male sex organ (some do, some don’t) that is quite a complex business, because simply taking large amounts of female hormones is liable to considerably reduce sexual function or disable it completely. Some transwomen also undergo it not because they really want to but because they may feel obliged or even compelled to do so by outside considerations &/or forces. E.G. their male (or possibly female) lover wants them to have it done, or they live somewhere which won’t legally recognize them as female unless they have it done.

      For transmen, taking large amounts of male hormones is liable to considerably increase the size of the clitoris. Buck Angel has a much larger clitoris than the average because of the hormones he takes. The article above is quite wrong to suggest that he has not undergone gender reassignment surgery because he has had pretty much everything done except a phalloplasty. The basic phalloplastic procedure currently available to F2Ms gives a result that is disappointing to many. An enlarges clitoris is actually considered preferable in many cases.

      The advanced phalloplastic procedures possible are also very expensive and take many operations over a period of five years or more to complete. They also carry a very high risk of blood poisoning and other potential medical problems. Patients need to abstain from drinking alcohol,smoking and most sexual activity for prolonged periods of time. Also there are only a small number of surgeons in the world who have to skills to do it properly. By comparison giving a transwoman a satisfactory vagina is relatively simple. Relatively simple. It is still a complex procedure which must be carried out by very skilled surgeons. Many transwomen have tried to have it done on the cheap, sometimes with absolutely horrific results.

      Jun 13, 2014 at 8:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jcortez
      jcortez

      @nf0603: As someone once told me, “It’s easier to create a hole than a pole.”

      Jun 13, 2014 at 10:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      Regardless of gender and sexual orientation, as a couple, they could only have lesbian sex.

      That says more about their actual identities than any Gender Studies nonsense.

      Jun 15, 2014 at 12:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeriHew
      GeriHew

      @inbama: Funny you should say that because I remember showing some pictures of Buck having sex with a woman to a lesbian ( a lesbian who actually enjoys looking at “mainstream” lesbian porn – not all of it, but some of it ) and she said Eww it didn’t look lesbian to her at all. Not at all! And she didn’t find it at all arousing either because lesbian porn and solo girl are the only types of porn she can get off on.

      And you know what? The woman in the porn with Buck was Bridgett Harrington, who has since become a transman called Lee Harrington.
      http://www.ropelover.com/

      Maybe if my lesbian friend was one of those lesbians who likes gay male porn she would have liked Buck and Harrington together. Actually i think that’s a distinct possibility.

      Jun 15, 2014 at 3:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @GeriHew: what they are referring to and what you are choosing to ignore is the two people engaging in sex at that time both had vaginas making it lesbian.

      Jun 15, 2014 at 10:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      @GeriHew: The labels have been stretched to the point where they are meaningless and even self-contradictory.

      Saying “I am a man” or “I am a woman” because “I identify as one” was and is circular logic as somewhere there must be this actual man or woman or at least an idea of a man or woman that you’re identifying with – and that person or idea is what a man or woman actually is.

      When you discard the notion of sex as biological and replace it with gender, male, female, intersex, sexual orientation and therefore “identity” itself all become empty words that mean pretty much anything and nothing.

      “Gender Studies” are “The Emperor’s New Clothes” – which is why we have Word Police manically trying to keep us from actually speaking any truth.

      Jun 15, 2014 at 1:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: So when my fiancé puts it in my butt, we’re having gay sex, but when he puts it in my vag, it’s straight sex?

      Jun 15, 2014 at 4:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      @corvaspikenard: Read my first sentence again.

      Jun 15, 2014 at 4:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: is that what you think defines gay sex? penis in ass? a person having sex with a person with the same sex organs is having homosexual sex. read a book

      Jun 15, 2014 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: Hate to break it to you, but after being on testosterone a while, a trans guy’s genitalia no longer resembles female genitalia – not in looks, smell or taste :-)
      I can suggest several resources for you to read and look at if you’re interested in knowing more?

      Jun 15, 2014 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: you can call it what you want but it’s still a vagina. you say it your self. that’s the problem here. people can call anything anything they want but it doesn’t change what it is.

      Jun 15, 2014 at 5:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: Huh? I called my vagina a vagina, if that’s what you’re talking about. It’s a vagina.
      The genitalia of a trans man on testosterone is phenotypically closer to male genitalia though. I know a lot of gay guys don’t like hearing this, but the penis and clitoris are the same structures, with a glans, a shaft and a frenulum. Add testosterone and it grows into a small penis and the labia majora thicken into scrotal folds.
      I know it’s uncomfortable for you and it challenges your black and white, binary view of sex and gender. Sadly neither of those is binary and no amount of wishing it was binary will make it so.

      Question time: if you have quickie bathroom buttsex with a guy and you later find out he was a trans guy, does the sex change from gay sex to straight sex? Are you now straight?

      Jun 15, 2014 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @corvaspikenard: first off you know nothing about me or my black and white view of the world. secondly in your example you called the trans mans genitalia female. thirdly if you remove the testosterone what do you go back to? I’m not threatened in any way. facts are facts. unless the vagina is removed the sex organs are still female. no matter how much testosterone they are taking. why are you obsessed with butt sex and sexual orientation ? if you have butt sex with someone and you are gay , you are still gay even if the person you thought was a man wasn’t. now if you had vaginal sex with this person then the story changed.

      Jun 15, 2014 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corvaspikenard
      corvaspikenard

      @gskorich: “first off you know nothing about me or my black and white view of the world.”

      Sorry, but you’ve showcased your binary views all over this thread; it’s a bit late now to claim your views are private or secret.

      “secondly in your example you called the trans mans genitalia female.”

      Actually, I said “a trans guy’s genitalia no longer resembles female genitalia”.

      “unless the vagina is removed the sex organs are still female. no matter how much testosterone they are taking.”

      The gale male who is an expert on vaginas. Well I never.
      I bow to your superior knowledge of vaginas, sir. Me and my vagina will move along leave you to it :-)

      Jun 15, 2014 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeriHew
      GeriHew

      @gskorich: Well as it happens my lesbian friend and I had quite a long discussion about what sort of sex Buck and Bridgett were having and we reached the conclusion that it wasn’t lesbian sex; or straight sex; or even non-heteronormative m/f sex. So we’d just have to call it “queer sex” and leave it at that.

      BTW Just to complicate matters further, Buck really wasn’t having anything much to do with Bridgett’s vagina because she was wearing a big purple strap-on and keeping her jeans on so the dildo poked out of the flies, and Buck just sucked on it and then took it in his mangina.

      I guess if you still insist on calling it lesbian sex then I think you should consider calling it non-homonormative lesbian sex. Non-lesbonormative?

      I’m not sure queerty will allow me to post all of the above. Let’s see.

      Jun 16, 2014 at 8:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @GeriHew: the two people in the room both had female organs. what they did to each other dies not define the type of sex they are having. the fact the the two people having sex were both the same sex organs makes it homosexual.

      if the sex organs don’t define who we are then why is it so important for people to change. buck wants us to believe he is a man with a vagina. he sleeps with women so again he wants us to believe this is heterosexual. we don’t live in his mind. we live in reality. homosexual is defined as having sex with some one of the same sex organs.

      Jun 16, 2014 at 10:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      @gskorich:

      HAHA. You’re right – he’d have to claim to be “Heterogenderal.” His wife would be “Bigenderal” as she has sex with men that have “manginas.”

      As we’re not allowed to talk about anyone’s sex any more without committing a hate crime, I guess I’m Homogenderal.

      Ain’t Transfeminism fun?

      Jun 16, 2014 at 11:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @inbama: remove male female, boy girl, man woman, homosexual heterosexual. what do you have? these are things we are being asked to rethink. we were taught a man had a penis and a woman had a vagina. not anymore.

      if this is the case and man woman isn’t important then what does transsexual mean ? if none of that matters then how could you be in the wrong body or does this only apply to the transgender? still if gender is not defined by genitalia then why does it matter what’s between your legs and below your neck ? these people are analysing themselves out of relevance.

      Jun 16, 2014 at 12:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeriHew
      GeriHew

      @gskorich: I’m pretty damned certain that Buck Angel has never described himself as heterosexual or straight. Other people have of course, some idiots have even called him “gay for pay”, but none of those twerps get him any better than you do.

      I actually first became aware of him when I saw him on Cyber Dyke Net – a network of lesbian porn sites made for women by lesbians and bisexual women. He’s not bothered if you call him a dyke or a fag. Why should he be? He’s a queer bisexual transman.

      Let’s take a SFW look at another transgender porn performer
      Bailey Jay – 7 Questions
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFa_ccNGwMI

      She has a penis, so by your schoolboy logic gay men (actual gay men I mean – not bisexual men) should have no problem with the idea of having sex with her.

      So seriously, do you think she gets lots of gay men wanting to have sex with her?

      Any gay men here want to step up and say they are sexually attracted to Bailey Jay?

      Jun 16, 2014 at 12:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gskorich
      gskorich

      @GeriHew: lol. school boy logic because yours is so accredited ? lol. as for bailey, who wants to sleep with her is of no concern of mine but you are correct. if she has sex with a man it’s gay sex. there are plenty of straight men that are into the whole kinky thing. most gay men I know like men with penis. no breasts. but of course there are exemptions to everything. why do you and the others throw sexual orientation into the argument thinking you are going to win. I’m talking sexual organs. buck has a vagina. Bailey has a penis. figure it out. we don’t live in their minds. in their heads they are a woman and a man. in my mind they are not as long as they have those sex organs. discussion is meant to change minds. should have learned that in debate or didn’t your education allow for debate. lol. school boy.

      Jun 16, 2014 at 12:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GeriHew
      GeriHew

      @gskorich: Schoolboy is a word. One word. That’s why I wrote it as one word. To me it says a lot about how you think about things that you split that word up and wrote “school boy” instead of schoolboy when you responded to my comment about your “schoolboy logic”.

      A person is more than his, her, their component parts. This is the thing you are failing to see.

      If you say Bailey Jay is a man because she has a penis and therefore when a man (a man with a penis obviously) has sex with her it’s “gay sex” and by that token when a woman ( a woman with a vagina) has sex with her it’s “straight sex” then you are ignoring the sum of of who Bailey Jay really is and breaking her down into component parts.

      She has quite a lot of interesting things to say in the video on YouTube. But for anyone who is in a hurry I suggest you goto 4 minutes in to hear what she says about her gender identity.

      If a gay man had sex with her and enjoyed it then it would be more than a little strange if he didn’t question his sexuality even though she has a penis. It would be more than a little strange for any other monosexual person (i.e. a lesbian, a straight man, a straight woman) not to do the same thing.

      That’s why I’m not expecting many gay men to leap in here and say they are sexually attracted to Bailey. If however a straight man comes across this thread and chips in that he is sexually attracted to her it wouldn’t be surprising if some gay men here questioned his sexuality.

      Getting back to Buck Angel. You can be pretty damned sure that hardly any of the men who watch and enjoy his porn, even if it’s just the porn he does with women, are men who identify as straight.

      Jun 17, 2014 at 3:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • notcisjustmale
      notcisjustmale

      @DB75: Or the same man goes into a hospital and has his penis cut off and takes a bunch of shots – he is still a man.

      Jul 17, 2014 at 12:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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