Is it time to stop counting who is not going to the DNC’s gay fundraiser, and rather figure out who will be there? For one, we know Vice President Joe Biden RSVPd … but only ’cause he’s hosting the thing.
UPDATE: Stonewall Democrats drop support for the fundraiser, but stops short of a boycott.
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Angus
Stop giving the Dems money. I voted for Obama, I won’t next time.
Rob
No more money and no more votes for the Democrats until we get action on ENDA and Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.
andy_d
Don’t forget DOMA . . .
SM
If there are not thousands of people outside this fundraiser protesting…the equality movement is just as guilt of blowing it.
Get off your asses…there are millions of gay people in the United States…start showing up for your civil rights are stop crying.
Cam
I donated and attended fundraisers while Obama was running for office. NO MORE! Attending this fundraiser would be the same as telling the DNC that their current behavior towards us is acceptable. Do Not attend!
wondermann
Folks are going this event so what!
That not the big issue. NOM’s actions in New York, anti-gay peeps in Maine are hiring Prop 8’s marketing team to reverse the ruling and Bishop Harry Jackson are moving in on our rights in D.C.
Those are our true enemies.
Let’s focus on them and stop this somewhat foolish attack on ourselves
InExile
We all need to write our Congressman and Senators and tell them respectfully “NO MORE MONEY” until legislation is written and passed to repeal DOMA, DADT, pass Hate Crimes and ENDA, and Civil Unions with full federal benefits. President Obama made these promises but he needs our representatives to prepare the legislation. Last night he said he wanted to “work with congress” on repeal of DOMA. We need to push congress to do their job as well as the President!
InExile
@wondermann: Please tell me holding our elected officials accountable is not attacking ourselves in your view!
Brian Miller
@SM: We don’t need straight Obama apologists telling us what to do, thank you.
If we choose to show up at the event, fine.
We may instead choose to exercise our activism a different way — such as cutting off all electoral support including fundraising and votes in 2010.
It’s OUR decision to make, and we don’t need your stupid “benchmarks.” If you want to establish benchmarks, go benchmark your own party’s willingness to ignore the constitutional rights of an entire group of citizens.
Martha
Money talks. Bullshit walks.
walk away, Obama
Orpheus_lost
@wondermann: You’d have us attacking a thousand little fires instead of getting to the guy with the matches and can of gasoline? It doesn’t matter what NOM and all the other fear based, hatemongering groups do or say if we can get state and federal elected bodies to remove discriminatory laws from their books. The way to do that isn’t to continue screaming “WE’RE NOT AS BAD AS THEY CLAIM!” each time they put up some silly ad. The way is to let the powers that be know that we will no longer send them money for the purpose of working against our interests. Do you realize that by sending donations to the DNC you end up having your hard earned cash lining the coffers of people who campaign on anti-GLBT platforms? If not, then check out the record of Tim Kaine, the governor of Virginia and Obama’s hand picked head of the DNC.
michael @ leonardmatlovich.com
I expect Queerty to do a separate thread about THIS boycotter of the DNC dinner next week for second class citizens not just because they interviewed him during the campaign but I can’t wait to share the shocking news. Stampp Corbin is less a “money guy” himself than an actual gay friend of the Obama’s who is as responsible as any gay man for getting him elected. Here are some bio reminders and some juicy and courageous morsels from his indictement er announcement.
Corbin was cochair of Obama’s National LGBT Leadership Council-possibly the only black gay man Obama’s ever known by name [not counting Donnie McClurkin, of course].
He defended Obama asking Donnella to pimp for him because it was, why couldn’t we understand, part of Our Lord’s plan to get the homohating lions to lie down with the little gay lambs. He helped keep afloat The Big Lie that Obama’s “support for repeal of ALL of DOMA” actually meant anything; who pilloried Hillary on the Signorile show and anywhere else he could over the phony difference.
Corbin, when it seemed O’s gay smilefucking act might go down in flames because he was hiding from the gay press, conceived of those brilliantly hollow Obama “Dignity & Respect” Stonewall print ads with Barry’s face lit softly from the heavens as he gazed gently upward toward the rainbow version of the O logo, his hands seeming to be moving into “prayer position” that still have SOME sodomites speaking in tongues.
Here’s part of the statement Corbin’s released:
“…When I wake up each morning, I feel a bit schizophrenic, “I love Obama, I hate Obama, I am ambivalent about Obama.” It’s maddening. Someone get me a Prozac.
I ask, “Mr. President how can you argue for the legality of DOMA, when you are for its repeal?” You really are talking out of both sides of your mouth and my community knows it. … Mr. President …. choose to lead.
Both Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton filed legal briefs arguing against existing law. The president says he is a “fierce advocate” for LGBT rights. Really? I don’t think comparing a marriage to my partner, to marrying my niece or sister, is being my fierce advocate. … If how I feel, as one of the president’s most ardent supporters, is any indication, Obama is in for a world of trouble over the next year with the LGBT community.
… After Prop 8, my partner and I feel we are playing a tragic game of Wipeout. Traveling through an obstacle course that we must master to get our rights; making it to the end in California, only to be told by voters that heat didn’t count. I expected obstacles to be placed in our path by our enemies; I just didn’t expect it from the President. I thought he was on our side; I still want to believe that.
Unfortunately, I will see everything that the Obama administration does for LGBT Americans through the lens of the DOMA brief. Meaning, I will be waiting for the other proverbial shoe to drop, while praying President Obama delivers on his promises.
Next week, I am boycotting the Gay and Lesbian Leadership Council Democratic National Committee event honoring Vice President Biden to drive home my discontent.
Mr. President, your DOMA mistake awakened a sleeping giant. He is mad as hell and is not going to take it anymore. You better get LGBT affirming legislation moving quickly or the coffers of the LGBT community will be slammed shut on the fingers of your administration and the DNC. You and the DNC may find themselves asking about our donations “if not now, when” as we have been asking about our rights for the last few months.”
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3180/2633485007_0e8a2e6b68.jpg[/img]
Rob
@wondermann: We have a Democratic President and large Democratic majorities in both houses. The Democrats have the power to act, but they aren’t doing a thing for us. These people aren’t our friends if they take our money and our votes and run. We need to push them to act.
@SM: I don’t understand what you’re trying to communicate with your posts telling us to “stop crying.” If it’s a call for more action, I totally agree with you, but I think you would be more persuasive if you didn’t express this call for action in critical terms.
wondermann
@InExile: No I’m not, but attacking folks for going to the dinner or the LGBT senators who support Obama is not a wise move
GES
Do not give any money to any US political party. When they ask why tell them you’re part of the LGBT community and that none of the political parties are doing a damned thing for us. Until we have Liberty and Justice for All you get no money. Think of all the money that our community has donated to HACKS who promised to change things and in the end just SHAT on us.
SFNative
@wondermann:
Wondermann,
This is far from a foolish act. If you want real change in Washington, you play hardball, you don’t ask, you don’t wait. They’ll listen to you when you make demands with political retributions if the demands are not met. Obama’s announcement yesterday may not have come at all without the threat of boycotting the DNC fundraiser next week, and we’re not letting up. If you think this is an ill-advised strategy, then I suggest for you to research the 1960’s African-American Civil Rights Movement.
“Power is never given – it has to be taken”, says Harvey Milk.
M Shane
We elected Obama knowing that he supported Civil Unions; Now when eh won’t fuck with the constitution and pull a Bush, the assimilationist homophobs scream. Whats that about. Sounds like spoiled babies. Obamaz hasn’t even had a chance. Gay issues are hardly the first on his agenda: you ssound like a bunch of narcisistic cildren. Give him time.
Sceth
Gays would probably do well to continue to support Democrats — but not the President. Pitch for those votes in the House and Senate. (Although, a pro-gay Republican trumps a conservative Dem.)
jeffrey
Wow. I just called Marjorie Hill (GMHC) and she answered the phone! and I had a pretty long conversation with her. She was pretty cold when I asked her to please pull out of the fundraiser. I asked her if she had been getting a lot of calls like this and she said “no.” (Let’s change that: 212-367-1248)
She said she “is concerned about a lot of things: HIV funding, funding for minorities”… and some other things–I can’t remember exactly, I was so surprised to have gotten through to her so easily. I told her we are all concerned about those things, too. And she said “sometimes she wonders if that is true. She doesn’t see much evidence of that.” And she went on about how she thinks so many of us are too “single issue” in our focus. And I said “but if we don’t stand up for ourselves, no one else is going to do it. That is what has become so clear in the last few weeks”.
And we talked some more and I ended with “please join with the vast majority of the gay community who are fed up and will not give any more money to the democrats as long as they treat us this way.”
And she was silent and then we said “goodbye”.
Interesting.
Fitz
@jeffrey: Ah Jeffery, you are not being a good little homosexual and behaving well, now are you. Clearly your job is to take it on the chin (no pun intended).
Movement Guy
@Brian Miller:
So when the Republicans recapture the Senate in 2010 and effectively block any pro-gay legislation for the remainder of Obama’s first term, what’s next?
I do not recall any promise from Obama to repeal DOMA or DADT during a specific time frame. Politically, waiting for the stimulus to improve the economy and for the Dems to gain even bigger majorities in the House and Senate in 2010 is far wiser than giving the Republicans a clarion call for fund raising and agitating before the midterms.
Yes, the DOJ brief was insulting, and I think calling the administration, and particularly the Bush tool that wrote it, on the carpet is completely appropriate.
But, I have not seen on any blog what the next step is after boycotting this fundraiser. No money through 2010? Maybe letting that tip the Senate?
Has anyone here considered that maybe the reason why Democratic president’s don’t get anything substantive done after their first two years is because subsections of their constituency turn on them, while Republicans keep the party’s business under their hat?
Stamping our feet and refusing to play without a strategy beyond the tantrum will not advance our rights.
I would really love one of the pro-boycott, anti-Obama folks on here to tell us what the next step is and how it advances our rights.
Movement Guy
@jeffrey:
So no funding for people with AIDS until gay can get married? I’m with Majorie on this one.
M Shane
Gays had better figure out really fast that this is the most progressive President we’ve had. This country is definitely in need of humungus changes.
For Qyueerty or anyone to suggest that we not support Obama is the most underhanded Neocoln trick I have ever seen . You can’t expect to get anything unless you do something but whine. There is not one solitary reason fro this kind of trash unless you are Republican reactionaries.
Gary
@M Shane:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wusc4ZC4DPc/SjqX9TJ972I/AAAAAAAAA-g/YmTNyzL-6Xc/s1600-h/GAYTM.jpg
OhYeah
M. Shane : Stop being paranoid about Republican reactionaries. Obama has broken his promises in a very nasty way. Deal with it.
fifi
Who wants to bet that alot of people will go for the event and a shitload of money will be raised regardless? watch and see.
eduardo
@OhYeah: not every Democrat is mad at Obama because of gay issues. You deal with it!
Kathy
@fifi: I know.
OhYeah
Eduardo : Of course not. Straight Democrats don’t care.
Nick
Right on, Eduardo. Prepare to be accused of being a straight interloper.
Nick
HAHA! Couldn’t have timed that better if I tried.
Eduardo
@OhYeah: I wonder why.
Eduardo
@Nick: I’ve been acused of worse things.Ihave also been called lots of names.
shelby
@fifi: I sadly have to agree with ya.
InExile
@wondermann: Yes, it is a wise move! The politicians need to know if they do not keep their promises they not only will they be boycotted financially, they will be greeted by angry mobs where ever they go!
Promises are promises and promises are meant to be kept! If they break their promises, they get what they deserve. We really don’t have much to lose! Will they take away the rights we do not have?
Movement Guy
@InExile:
Again, I ask the question: Boycott the DNC fundraiser and then…?
timncguy
@M Shane: yes, we knew Obama supported civil unions. We also knew the following
1. he promised to begin getting rid of DADT on his first day in office
2. he promised to be a FIERCE ADVOCATE for getting rid of DOMA.
3. he promised to use the bully pulpit to advance our issues on ENDA and hate crimes legislation.
He hasn’t fiercely advocated ANYTHING
But, he did have his DOJ file a brief defending DOMA that was filled with anti-gay bigoted rhetoric that the right wing would be proud of. And, they will use it against us in the future.
He hasn’t advocated for us as promised. He hasn’t even been neutral. He has actively worked against us.
His personal opposition to gay marriage doesn’t affect any of the promises he made to us.
And, you cannot continue to say he didn’t promise “when” he would do these things, because he did. As I said, he promised to begin getting rid of DADT on day 1.
michael @ leonardmatlovich.com
@Movement Guy:
What next? Boycott the next event and the next and the next until Obama and the Democratic majority in Congress gets off their asses and at least TRIES to pass gay positive legislation.
I GUARANTEE you that will happen before your hysterical the Republican sky will fall on us in 2010 scenario. Rats will try to get away from you, too, but ultimately they’ll come for the cheese.
As for your anal wart argument [it keeps coming back] that Obama never promised a specific timeframe for “repeal,” that’s true…and irrelevant.
He DID promise to START working toward repeal of DADT “when I take office.” Nota bene, not 6 months after he took office, not a year after, not after the economy is better.
As for your other Obambot er Chicken Little argument that the sky will fall in terms of Repubs attacking him if he works towards anything they don’t like…. when would that NOT be true? And, how successful have they been with all the things they’ve thrown at him so far having nothing to do with Les Fags?
Yes, even the Dems got stampeded by their functionally illiterate consitutuents into blocking the idea of transfering Gitmo terrorists with apparent supernatural powers to their local Barbie & Ken play jails with the plastic bars on the plastic windows.
But as homophobic as Americans remain I don’t think they are quite as afraid of us as Ali Bin Wud Bee Bomber. In fact, on everything but literal “marriage” equality they support us. They WANT DADT repealed even without having had the connection made for them with national security.
Take some of that irrational fear they have for the Gitmo gang, make the entirely logical case for letting gays serve helping fight terrorists and the DC switchboards would be smoking.
But O and the DNC aren’t even willing to try, and that’s why they have to be behavior modified into doing it. Inertia – no cheese. Reasonable action – CHEESE!
timncguy
@Movement Guy: two points.
Yes, Obama gave a specific time frame on DADT. He promised to begin getting rid of DADT on his 1st day in office. The pentagon reports that NOTHING of substance has happened on DADT.
If the dems are so worried that losing our support could re-elect repugs, maybe they should get up off their asses and do something for us to EARN our support.
They act they would rather lose the elections than do anything for us. It is they who are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. All they need to do is give us some of what we have been promised. But, they REFUSE. And, then they have the nerve to tell us that we still need to support them or repugs will take over. Well, SCREW THAT. You want my money and my vote. DO SOMETHING.
My personal opinion is, if we aren’t going to get our rights, I want the repugs to win. Let everyone else join us in the misery. Why are the gays the only ones who have to suffer to ensure the dems keep control? Do you see any straights saying they are willing to give up their rights while we work on the economy and healthcare? As soon as we repeal hetero equality so we have time to work on more important issues, I’ii quiet down. But, not until then.
Orpheus_lost
@Movement Guy: This is the problem with the internet – you have been told repeatedly that it makes no difference to the GLBT cause if Republicans take over for a Democratic Congress that is not working in our interests. Either way we get nothing, but one way we save our money. I guess if its that important to the Dems to stay in power using our money they’d better take some of our issues off the backburner for once, hadn’t they?
Really, I always suspect people like you are paid plants of the DNC who troll websites looking to confuse and indoctrinate people by fear and intimidation. You people always tell us we have no place else to go like the Democrats are the best we can do even when they do nothing or vote against our interests. I was one of those who bought that message in the Clinton years until he pushed for and signed DOMA. Never again.
timncguy
@jeffrey: In your conversation with Ms. Hill, did you remind her that the Advocate plans to be there with cameras and video to record who the “traitors” attending are? I’m sure they plan to publish names and photos and ridicule them in print and online.
Movement Guy
@timncguy:
I’m sorry the Prop 8 ruling, which every legal mind in the country said would go against us, put the piss in your coke. I have seen a building of hysteria (and, yes, that’s what it is) in the weeks since being egged on by a bunch of self-important bloggers.
Where is the anger at the two shitheads who filed the DOMA challenge in the first place? Which they did, despite every one of our legal defense groups telling them not to do so. There has been a long term strategy for winning marriage equality state by state leading up to a probable Supreme Court decision once the tipping point had been passed. Instead of abiding by that strategy, two guys had to file suit because they were angry. The fact that the Roberts Court refused to hear that case is the best possible outcome, because had they heard it and agreed the DOMA was constitutional, it could have set back marriage equality for decades (remember the five conservative justices are younger and in much better health than the liberals).
@Orpheus_lost:
I am not a DNC plant. In fact, I am probably way to the left of the DNC and you, for that matter. I support complete pubic financing of elections. The money in politics, whether gay or corporate, is the single biggest obstacle to everyone having basic human rights, including healthcare and peaceful resolution to international conflict.
But I am also a pragmatist, not unlike the president. Obama is a chess player and you want him to play checkers. I didn’t support Obama in the primaries because he didn’t seem to have a vision about poverty. I was an Edwards supporter. Not a great choice in hindsight, but I’m passionate about poverty.
By our own community estimates, LGBT people are 3-4% of the population. A far tinier minority than African Americans or Latinos. In my home state of New York, our Senate is in complete shutdown resulting from infighting between minority groups. Now, there will not only be no gay marriage in NYC in the foreseeable future, but there will be no legislative action.
I have no love for Republicans, but they no how to stick with a strategy until it’s run its course. That is why we keep losing.
If the left could stop eating our own, we might actually get something done.
Finally, let the Advocate photograph who they will. If you think they are going to ruffle the feathers of some straight politician or movement leader they may want on their cover sometime soon, you’ve been reading an entirely different magazine than I have.
BrianZ
Wayne Besen said it best, I think:
“The Democrats took our money, our votes and our volunteer hours and now they tell us to wait patiently, like good little gays. As far as I’m concerned, if the donkeys can’t deliver now, they can kiss my ass. The Democrats run the show in Washington and if they will not act like a majority party, then they do not deserve to be one.”
from http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-obamas-empty-words/
SM
If you all don’t want to donate to the DNC then don’t but all the bashing is going to backfire on you.
If the gay dollar was so powerful at funding campaigns, you all would have ripped the Yes Campaign to shreds.
stephan
@Movement Guy: OMG. Brilliant!
timncguy
@Movement Guy: you must have me confused with somene else. I don’t recall saying anything about Prop 8 in my comment. I did refute your claim that Obama gave no specific time frame for action on DADT becaus ehe did. I also mentioned the DOJ brief because it was filled with hate that was not necessary to get what they wanted. All they needed to do was say the plaintiffs had no standing. So, in the future, if you feel a need to respond to me, please respomd to the points I actually made. Thanks
stephan
@SM: All I know is that Obama made a shitload of cash during the primaries while we funded and supported saint Clintons-aka DADT, DOMA, who by the way are still in debt. The least we can do is help Hillary pay off her debt then right? . We keep bragging that we have money, we are rich and therefore can afford to boycott fundraisers in order to get people to listen. Did the civil right movement have the money to hold on people’s heads demanding for equality back in the day?.
SM
I honestly think it would be fantastic if the big donors pulling out of the DNC Fundraiser turned and made the same donation required there to the Marriage Equality Fight in Maine or New York.
NOW has targeted those 2 states and they are using the PR frim in California that did the Yes Campaign. Maine and New York are going to need a lot of help.
SM
@stephan:
Well I don’t see you paying off Saint Hillary’s debt.
timncguy
@SM: if you believe we are so powerless, why are you here spending so much time worrying about it?
timncguy
@Movement Guy: you say
“if the left could stop eating our own, we might actually get something done”
Maybe instead of worrying about getting every dem activist on the same page, you could spend your time trying to get dem politicians on the same page.
The “eating of our own” is more problematic with Dem senators than with voters. I’d be more worried about getting the 59 (maybe soon 60) dem senators to all support the dem policy instead of a bunch of them becoming “conserv-a-dems” on issues like healthcare. We have Dem senators selling the “public option” right down the drain when (in theory) the dems have the votes to do whatever we want to do. Talk about eating your own. By the time they get done watering healthcare reform down, it won’t be of any use at all.
michael @ leonardmatlovich.com
@Movement Guy:
No matter how you keep spinning, first this direction, then that direction, then up, then down, your dance is still easily identifiable: The Obama Can’t Be Wrong Shuffle.
Forget the DOMA brief betrayal [see below]; forget the DADT brief betrayal four days before [which so many have so quickly forgotten], there was ENOUGH reason to boycott BEFORE then. As OBAMA’s OWN CLOSE FRIEND Stampp Corbin details above, the DOMA brief was just the proverbial final straw.
As for your, “Don’t Blame Our Lord & Saviour Barack Christ-Blame Those Silly Gay Wabbits Who Filed The Suit” dodge, try this from Jon Davidson who doesn’t just play an attorney on the Net, he IS one, the Legal Director of Lambda Legal which is hardly a lunatic or partisan group. If, then, you still don’t get it, well, Mary, I’d advise saying you ARE paid by the DNC because otherwise we simply have to conclude that you’re retarded.
“Whether or not the administration felt a need to defend, there are many ways one can defend. The administration could have rested on the first two arguments raised in their papers (jurisdiction and standing) that these plaintiffs were not entitled to sue without arguing at this point that DOMA is constitutional. Doing that would not have waived those arguments. What they need to be asked is why they gratuitously went out of their way to make the outrageous arguments they unnecessarily included such as that DOMA does not discriminate based on sexual orientation or that the right at issue is not marriage but an unestablished right to ’same-sex marriage’ or that DOMA is somehow justified in order to protect taxpayers who don’t want their tax dollars used to support lesbian and gay couples (while it’s apparently fine to make lesbians and gay men pay the same taxes but be denied the benefits provided heterosexual couples). Their public statements about the filing try to sidestep these points. They absolutely knew they did not need to make these additional arguments, especially at this time and consciously decided to do so. I am seething.”
Orpheus_lost
@Movement Guy: I don’t want Obama to play chess, checkers or canasta; I want him to man up and follow through on the promises he made to get my money and my vote. Until he, and the rest of the Democratic party, finds the balls to do that I’m going to work against their continued existence. How’s that for a game?
As for the rest of your comments, they mean little to nothing. You claim to be far to the left but you want us all to sit quietly waiting for our rights to be delivered on a platter like good little homos because that’s pragmatic like the president. Fuck pragmatism when it’s nothing more than a synonym for ‘procrastination’. Now is the time to push, not in eight years when we discover, like Clinton, that ‘our’ president has done us far more damage than good. Obama has proved time and again that he does not hear or care about our needs and rights until the money dries up. Well, the queer cash river isn’t going to flow again until we get real movement, not this pseudo-rights bullshit he’s managed to scrape up at the last minute. If you don’t like it you can just go back to fighting your anti-assimilation war from the 1970s, but leave us alone to do the work necessary to establish our human rights!
SM
@timncguy:
Considering I just posted for the Donors pulling out of the DNC to turn and contribute to Maine or New York, I don’t think you are powerless.
I think you don’t see the golden opportunity you all have been given with Obama if your community truly wants full equality and it ticks me off.
How did I end up here? After going through hell for your commuity during the No On Prop 8 Camapaign, I couldn’t figure out if the gay comunity even cared about their equality at all. I had a front row seat to the Yes Campaign and it blew me away how organized, funded, and focused these people are. I knew Prop 8 would pass. They were using law offices down the street from me as a phone bank and called me everyday. Literature on my front door. Signs paving the way to the voting booth.
I also think your community cannot recover from that smack and you are just angry. Bush is gone! Pull together a kick ass community and push through the door for civil rights in the United States or tell your community to stop attacking Democrats.
Even though the Yes People in my area drove me crazy, I saw the younger generation sticking up for you with their own signs. I had straight people walk up to me and thank me privately for what I was doing even though they are not at the public point of the issue. I have a religious neighbor who went from having signs Yes Signs on his car to being angry it passed.
I’ve followed Obama for a long time, he has not forgotten you. He’s in the Washington Bubble now. You all have to do work too.
I guess I have seen how close you all truly are to where you want to be and if you don’t get there….its your own fault.
Doug
I feel that President Obama is getting irritated with “the gays” And the dems in congress are getting irritated with “the gays” I’d say that we “the gays” are more than irritated with our president and the dem led congress! If the dems assume they can continue to play politics with our lifes and civil rights, and let this time pass without action on our basic civil rights then they lose my vote and many more of “the gays” vote! We are sick and tired of being treated as second class citizens and we do vote! President Obama and democrats in congress, I will not vote in 2010 if I don’t see action in repealing these hateful and unjust laws, laws inacted to keep “the gays” as unequal and less deserving of full and equal rights! Just one of “the gays”
stephan
@Doug: so what did you do to help repeal these laws when clinton was in office. yiou do know that he is the one who enacted most of these homophobic laws right? what did you do back then?
timncguy
@SM: You don’t think we are powerless??? Here is your previous quote
“If the gay dollar was so powerful at funding campaigns, you all would have ripped the Yes Campaign to shreds.”
You basically have an “attitude” problem. You want everyone to recognize your tireless work for “our community”. Always going out of your way to make sure we know you are working for US, when you clearly don’t have to. So, to your mind, we should all be bowing down to your superior knowledge of how activism should be done.
You continue to make sure you tell us how many other people are constantly thanking you for your constant efforts on the behalf of “our community”. And, apparently you are just dumbfounded by the fact that we don’t consider you as “Saint SM” and haven’t yet cannonized you for all the effort you have graciously given to “our community” even though as you constantly remind us, you are not a part of our community and therefore you should be thought of even more “highly” because you are working for a community outside your own.
Well, bless you sweet thing. NOW GO AWAY.
SM
@timncguy:
The Democrats do not need your dollars to win elections. If you are that PISSED at Obama’s performance in 5 months, don’t give him a dime. GOOD GOD!
I honestly don’t care.
SM
@timncguy:
Go away? Fuck you and your civil rights then…idiot.
SM
@timncguy:
Lots of people are gettin fed up with the BS….
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/18/stonewall-dems-complain-d_n_217684.html
timncguy
@stephan: it was a different time and different environment during the Clinton years. SWe are years and miles away from that environment now. The dems control all three branches of the government. OUt side of full marriage equality, the population full supports our equality. NOW is the perfect time, before we get into electin season again, to get some things done without political consequence.
Repeal of DADT, Hate Crimes legislation, ENDA all have majority support ofte people. It wouldn’t cost any politicain anything to get this done.
The longer the politicians wait to do any of these, the less credit they will get for doing them.
If Obama had issued the stop order suspending DADT and told congress to get to work on the repeal, and NOT issued such a vile DOMA defense, teh gays would be slap happy now and perfectly willing to WAIT for other progress. But, nope, he had to stand firm on doing nothing just to show us who is boss, I guess.
So, with DOMA, now come more demands. And, the longer we wait, the more it will take to make us happy again.
For gawd’s sake, the dems are acting like they would PREFER to lose the next election rather than give us anything that we were promised. What’s up with that?
Have they made a calculated decision that they would lose more votes from others by giving us something, than they will lose from us by denying us anything? If that is the case, then you shouldn’t worry about losing our support, it won’t cost you anything apparently.
SM
@timncguy:
They are getting it done. In case you have not noticed Health Care and Energy has not yet been accomplised either but Hate Crimes is almost on his desk.
Cry me a river…EVERYTHING NOW EVEN THOUGH WE DONT DO SHIT!
Movement Guy
@timncguy:
Here we are in agreement, but you belie your own argument vis-a-vis Obama. Yes, blue dog senators are a huge problem. If they won’t get on board with healthcare, do you think they’ll repeal DOMA, DADT, or pass trans-inclusive ENDA. This is where the Right has always been smarter and more patient than us. They built a movement over decades by sucking up some stuff they didn’t like to create a majority that passed tax cuts for the Rich and authorized an illegal war with Iraq. And why did they do this, despite not getting all their “moral” values platform. Tim Gill and some other high-level donors have been working at the grassroots level to fund primary challenges to blue dogs. This is a smart long-term strategy. Something we need more of…
Bruce Bastian, another prominent donor, has said he will not attend the DNC fundraiser but will continue to fund those Democrats who are good on our issues. That’s smart, too.
Simply saying, give us our rights or we’ll take our money and pout is not a strategy to win anything.
@Orpheus_lost:
You, apparently, are seeing an entirely different presidency than I. What I see is a president who is using inoculation strategies to get what we need done. It’s simply not going to happen on your timetable, or mine for that matter. It will happen when there is enough of a majority to pass the legislation needed to have our rights acknowledged. Fighting the party likely to do that will not achieve that goal. Between Franken being benched, and the blue dogs that Tim mentioned, we don’t have the votes.
Now, I’m too young to have been part of the anti-assimilation movement in the 1970s, but I do chafe at the extent to which our movement turned from liberation and transformation to “I gave at the election, not let me be as much like heterosexuals as possible.” DADT is a perfect example of this. Instead of taking on the military industrial complex, not to mention the corporations who are making billions off the deaths of our soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, we’re screaming to be part of American adventurism. The recent (though not necessarily advanced by you) arguments to use “stop loss” to keep gay soldiers in is, to me, as awful as some of the arguments made in the DOJ brief. If we really want justice, we can’t use terrible policies to advance our own rights.
Finally, I have been reading this blog and many other in the past few weeks. From what I can glean, the majority of posters
are:
Mad at the Democrats and Obama
Don’t like our movement leaders, who are tools of the DNC
Think out politicians are too timid
Think a March on Washington is stupid
Want those of us with a more progressive vision than assimilation to STFU
I am not for sitting quietly and waiting for our rights. If there was a strategy to get us coordinated in moving the agenda, I’d be out on the street tomorrow, or calling my senators, or whatever else needs doing. But all I hear is anger and complaining, not one idea for how to move the needle in our favor.
So tell me, where does that leave anything approaching a movement to actually secure our rights?
TANK
@SM:
You don’t know this, for one, and it seems like the democrats do need our votes to win in many areas of this country. And many of us are democrats are entitled to make demands on a party that we have sacrificed and donated money and time to have represent us. You don’t speak for the democratic party, and neither does barack obama.
Phoenix (Outloud, Proud, And Unbowed In The Face Of Adversity)
The candidate who gets my vote in the next election is the one who delivers:
Equal Rights For All U.S. Citizens: Ends Discrimination Based On race, creed, color, religion, national origin, ancestry, sex, age, disability, or sexual orientation.
An End To Faith Based Initiatives for federally-funded social services: See First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
Universal Healthcare: Expand Medicare/Medicaid To All U.S. Citizens.
Better Education: So that future tax payers don’t graduate from high school Functionally Illiterate. (Yeah, I’m looking at you New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, & California, the lowest ranked public schools in the country.)
Prosecution of those who committed crimes during the last administration, whether those crimes were on Wall Street, in Government Office, or in the Military. Throw the book at them! No slap on the wrist and a vacation at a country club prison. Time served in Gen Pop at San Quentin, if you please.
Social Security That The Elderly Can Actually Live On And Won’t Run Out In A Couple Of Decades. Fix it please!
Hate Crimes Legislation: Make committing crimes based On race, creed, color, religion, national origin, ancestry, sex, age, disability, & sexual orientation very unpopular with all those Neo-Nazis, Aryan Brotherhood, KKK, Storm Front losers.
Do something about Illegal Immigration: Ice doesn’t work, Current Law doesn’t work. Make it work.
Oh, and when you have a minute, do something about world peace.
SM
@TANK:
Cool…If that is how you feel….Tell the White House to DELETE this so the Democrats can move on to other issues. I’m nost sticking up for people who treat me like you do. GROW UP LITTLE ONE
How quickly you are forget how Bush treated you.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Wrongs-that-We-Intend-to-Right-Today/
TANK
@Movement Guy:
“movement” is such an unfortunate name as bowels move, too. The “movement” which has achieved nothing on a national level (the only one that matters in a rights based “movement”), apparently is staffed by incompetents, then, if the politicians aren’t to blame. Time for the movement to move on, going purely on results.
This isn’t about a timetable for, say, DADT, as all data suggests that now is the time. Further, there wasn’t a timetable for the civil rights movement–it wasn’t a good time for african americans to demand their rights then, either. A significant error in your reasoning is assuming that there’s a timetable, and that it’s necessary to achieving our aims. This lends itself to politicians telling so-called lgbt “leaders” to wait, as they’re already expecting to wait because they benefit from the timetable (they continue to be relevant) and, from that, assuage the concerns and demands of those they “represent” to these politicians, and undercut real activists who refuse to wait and bide their time on these issues. There’s never really been a timetable for civil rights. This is a fiction that serves your the corporatized “activist” community’s central objective of protecting their status within the lgbt communities.
Movement Guy
Another view of the DOJ brief from Towleroad:
http://lawdork.wordpress.com/2009/06/17/chairman-frank-and-aravosiss-misstatements/
timncguy
@Movement Guy: I’m still waiting for you to admit that Obama did promise a time frame of DADT despite the claim you made. But, you just can’t do that, can you?
And, the repugs get things done, because they as group of politicians, are willing to set aside some personal preferences and vote in “lock-step” with the party agenda. It’s that simple. The dems are spineless. If the repugs had the margins the dems currently have, they would NOT be wasting any time at all trying to get bipartisanship. They would just DO IT. If they had senators like our blue dogs, they would grab them by the balls, read them the riot act, and they would then vote the way they were told to. end of story.
Why aren’t you willing to look at this from a different perspective? Why not tell the politicians to do something to EARN our votes, instead of constantlt telling us to make the sacrifice? IT would cost them NOTHING to do the stop loss on DADT immediately and then start moiving the DADT repeal though congress. It is supported by 69% of the people. The dems could get that through with no effort at all, if they were willing to act like repugs and do wht the leadership tells them to do.
SM
@TANK:
Are you a history idiot too? Kennedy did not give civil rights at the beginning of his Presidency. No way did Martin Luther King act as low class as you either.
TANK
@SM:
This is a complete nonsequitur. We have real allies (exclude yourself, please) that will criticize the direction of the party as well. Not all straight people are as narrow as you are in putting a political party over civil rights.
SM
@timncguy:
In case you have not noticed, you HAVE CIVIL RIGHTS ALLREADY that others have fought and died for. You have the right to vote, schools are not segregated etc. There was a time in this country when women could not vote…so spare me the total vicitm act.
Movement Guy
@TANK:
Tank, I do think some institutionalization has taken hold, particularly with some of the larger organizations, and it could use some shaking up. For myself, I’ll be glad when we can go from a movement to a “watchdog” type situation similar to Jewish groups. In fact, after the ass-kicking we received in 2004 and 2006, I left a far more lucrative career in academia to work for an LGBT nonprofit because I couldn’t bear to sit in my (relatively) cushy office when Bush was destroying our country.
timncguy
@SM: you are behind the times. Hate Crimes didn’t last two days and has been put back on hold again already. It was supposed to pass this week. But, they stopped working on it already.
Here is the main issue with you. Re-read your posts. You write them in a very condescending and demeaning way. You act like a know-it-all.
Your constant use of the phrase “your community” sounds just like it would sound if you always said “you people” when talking to a group of African Americans.
You act like you are trying to work, work, work to win the National LGBT BFF award this yaer and we are just ruining it for you because we won’t do things EXACTLY the way that you KNOW we should be doing it. And, damn it, you just know you deserve that BFF award and we won’t cooperate.
Movement Guy
@timncguy:
I agree that Pelosi and Reid need to go. The president doesn’t (and shouldn’t) control the legislature. They are simply not getting the job done in whipping the Dems into shape. Again, it comes back to money, I think, with each legislator staking a hold on what they bring in for the party.
Seriously, money out of politics would go a long way to making America better for everyone. In fact, we wouldn’t be arguing over the DNC fundraiser at all.
I have looked at this from a lot of perspectives, as my earlier post indicated. As a gay man, I’m increasingly worried that bitterness many of our community feel toward Obama, the DNC, the movement organizations, out politicos, will lead to an implosion with nothing getting done.
TANK
@SM:
So brown v. board education didn’t precede the civil rights act? I think you’ll find that dwight d. eisenhower (a real republican) supported that decision, and enforced it. Truman is another president that you’d benefit from reading about in terms of desgregating the armed forces by EXECUTIVE ORDER.
TANK
And Obama, far from rescinding the expansion of executive privilege that Bushco pushed forward, has MORE exuctive power than both truman and eisenhower and kennedy and johnson combined. And yet, he’s doing nothing…but harming us with that bigoted DOJ brief.
SM
@timncguy:
I don’t act like a know it all…I know hate crimes has been set back.
DUDE…Maybe you should check how people here talk to ME.
I hear gay people using the phrase “our community” so don’t be so sesitive.
No offense…but YOU ALL ARE THE CONDESCENDING KNOW IT ALLS…and for knowing it all…you sure dont win a lot.
People all over the internet gripe about Queerty posters
timncguy
@SM: When you are ready to give up YOUR RIGHT to marriage and it’s legal benefits and wait for the rest of us to get the same rights you have, then I’ll agree with you. But, telling me I have SOME rights, so I should be happy just shows your true colors.
TANK
SM is speaking from heterosexual privilege. She isn’t aware of it, yet is using it like a club.
SM
@timncguy:
My personal views? I think the whole marriage thing in the US is a joke. Tells you how much you know.
I also know if the African American community had their civil rights on the chopping block in California, African Americans from all over the country would have been out here outraged like crazy…
They fought for their civil rights with class…No Martin Luther Kings or Rosa Parks on Queerty..that is for sure.
timncguy
@Movement Guy: in your previous post you said
“Bruce Bastian, another prominent donor, has said he will not attend the DNC fundraiser but will continue to fund those Democrats who are good on our issues. That’s smart, too. ”
This is exactly what people here have been advocating and you have been complaining about.
I certainly have NEVE said don’t give time and money to dems that actually DO work for us. But, I mean WORK, not just TALK like Obama.
Like I said before, the dems act like they would PREFER to lose instead of just doing what they are capable of doing to make us happy. they could do DADT with no political consequences. But, they REFUSE for no reason.
And, you still can’t admit your error on DADT timeframe, can you? You act just like the dems who refuse to do what is easily within their power to do. You know it would make me happy for you to admit you were wrong, so you won’t do it. The dems know it would make us happy to kill DADT, so they won’t do it.
Orpheus_lost
@Movement Guy: So much to correct in your comments…
First, what you call “inoculation” most call “timidity” and “cowardice”. Sitting back and waiting till the world passes you by isn’t playing chess, it’s wasting opportunity. If Obama actually supported GLBT equality he would be pushing these issues using the bully pulpit and backroom maneuvering to make things happen. As we have heard from every player involved, none of that is happening.
Second, we are not fighting in order to force every GLBTer to live exactly like straight suburbanites. The fact that you argue this shows that you are either very, very stupid or very, very interested in creating division within the community. Either way you are spouting complete bullshit. As anyone with half a brain to play chess knows, we are demanding the RIGHT to marry, not the obligation to do so. We are demanding EQUAL PROTECTION, not forced assimilation. Are you really that silly that you don’t understand the difference?
Third, DADT isn’t about getting gays out there killing people like their straight counterparts, it’s about ensuring that those people who do choose to join the military for reasons of patriotism, health insurance, education, money, security, etc… are not summarily removed from their careers and left without pensions, health care, education, pride, etc… What about that flies over your head?
Lastly, this is a blog, it is not a forum for the advanced discussion of strategy. This is a place where people vent their anger at injustice so that they can go to work fighting it with less anger and more focus. You complain that there’s no focus but you don’t offer any yourself as you whine about others not doing it for you. Why is that?
If you’re not a plant for the homophobic DNC then you are an even sadder individual than I thought. To work so hard to convince people not to work on their own behalf through lies and distortion is a sign of a disturbed human being. If you really are gay then you need to get serious help for your low self esteem and destructive tendencies.
timncguy
@SM: you know the rules. People in the community are allowed to say things that people outside the community can’t say.
Besides, it’s more your overall condescending attitude that makes the “your community” come off sounding so bad.
Just like when you tell me i do have civil rights, when you know full well i don’t have ALL the same rights that you have. Do you understand just how condescending that sounds? Would you like it if someone kept telling you, hey i gave you SOME of what everyone else has, so be happy and shut up!
mark
The money I won’t give to the DNc, I’ll support marriage equality in Maine.
F*CK obama…..and Money 4 NOTHING
timncguy
@SM:
Now re-read what you wrote
“My personal views? I think the whole marriage thing in the US is a joke. Tells you how much you know.”
Do you see how that sounds? did I even mention anything about your presonal views of marriage? No, I didn’t.
Was it really necessary to tack on “tells you how much you know” to the end of that like a 5-year old saying “nanny, nanny, pooh pooh”.
You also seem to be very upset that millions of gays from across the country didn’t descend upon CA to battle Prop 8 when they have lives to live and jobs to protect and familes to provide for in a terrible economy. Different people are able to work against bigotry in different ways. I’m sorry you can’t accept that.
If you don’t apprecaite the posters here on queerty, why do waste so much of your day here? does this amuse you in some way? you aren’t going to convert anyone. shouldn’t you be out trying to win our rights for us instead of wasting your time on the commenters here at queerty who you don’t feel are deserving?
Movement Guy
@timncguy:
I really don’t think there’s anything to admit, re: the DADT timeframe. I recall early in the administration many pundits speculating that DADT wouldn’t be taken on in the first term. Can you point to a statement by Obama or a surrogate that says “We will repeal DADT by X date?”
@Orpheus_lost:
Let’s start with the assumption that you’re an asshole. I have been polite and resisted name-calling through all of out previous exchanges, but – like anyone without an intellectual argument – you resort to insults.
You seem to equate pragmatism and strategic thinking with “timidity.” That’s your perspective. We simply don’t share it. The inoculation strategies I’ve referred to have been around issue unrelated to ours, but it makes me think he’ll be deploying similar strategies that will allow him to pass the laws we want. For examples, DOJ (with agreement that the brief was highly problematic) defending DOMA sets up the administration to silence pro-DOMA forces by saying they defended the law while it was in place while pushing for repeal (in the Congress).
Re: Marriage. I have seen on here and other blogs, a lot of sexual policing, e.g. “why are the leather guys marching in the parade” or “quick! hide the trannies, or they’ll make us look bad.” Perhaps you don’t recall how quickly trans people were thrown under the bus when ENDA was introduced during the pre-Obama congress. I do. And the same thing is happening to queer families that don’t fit the hetero-normative image of marriage. I see folks all the time, whose sexual history (and predilections I’m familiar with) arguing for marriage, while hiding how they actually live. And I say that being in a longterm monogamous relationship. Maybe, as Nancy Polikoff has argued we need something bigger than marriage that actually provides legal protections for how families (gay and straight) organize our lives. That’s something the movement used to fight for, but when activists introduced a similar working paper a few years ago, they were attacked by the marriage movement folks.
I find the military mostly abhorrent, but I do want those serving to be treated fairly so they can serve us best. My main issue, which you have ignored in post after post, is that stop loss is not the way to do it. Stop loss policies, have not only led to tens of thousand service people being horribly traumatized, physically and mentally, by multiple tours – some of them, I’m sure, are gay, but also let the Iraq war go on for years without a draft. A draft which would have ended the war with utmost speed.
Audre Lorde said – The master’s tools will not unmake the master’s house.
The rest of your scribbles are vain attempts to insult me, when, really, you don’t know me, my intellect or my contributions to the movement or community. You just disagree with me and feel the need to say nasty things to make yourself feel superior.
And, with that, I’m off to bed.
TANK
You seem to equate pragmatism and strategic thinking with “timidity.”
How pragmatic the “movement” has been, huh? Nothing to show for it accept defeat and humiliation. If that’s pragmatism and strategy, who needs it. The hell with pragmatism and strategy if produces results like CA and the doj brief.
TANK
Rather, the hell with what you call strategy and frank calls pragmatism. As Frank said when he turned into crybaby on the house floor: “I’m a big shot. These issues no longer apply to me.”
Movement Guy
@TANK:
We’ve just seen an unprecedented number of marriage victories at the state level, all part of the long term strategy pushed by movement leaders since 2000, so you tell me.
timncguy
@Movement Guy: I have told you here and another poster also told you here that during the campaign Obama promised that he would begin the process of getting DADT repealed on his first day in office. He promised his actions to begin on day 1. And, he didn’t start any actions. As you recall there were many reports ober the last few weeks from the pentagon saying that nothing has been happening at all on DADT and the White House had not been having any discussion with the military in that regard. Sorry you don’t believe us. I have seen the quote. But, I have no intention of re finding it for you. Look it up yourself.
TANK
@Movement Guy:
But that’s a failed “timetable” strategy. State by state is a pathetic strategy. Unprecedented? That’s not saying much, “movement” guy. THe only use that has in a SC case.
TANK
I don’t think it’s fair to call the lgbt civil rights campaign a movement…because in order for that to occur, it actually needs to move…I really don’t care how glib I sound at this point. You people have fucked us with your “Strategy” and “pragmatism” for years.
TANK
“strategery!”
timncguy
@Movement Guy: a stop loss to suspend DADT and let gay military who want to serve, stay and serve is in no way analagous to a stop loss that prevents people from leaving when their term of service is over.
These are two different stop loss orders and one can be enacted without enacting the other.
Besides, last I knew there is already a stop loss in effect that is being used to extend the time in service of military members.
Are you under the impression that a stop loss to suspend DADT would also keep other military members in the service beyond the time they signed up for? If so, you’re wrong.
SM
@timncguy:
Prove it…You do not know Obama is not working on this issue behind the scenes. Its a bit tricky considering we are fighting 2 wars and safety issues could come up.
Obama has made promises to the gay community and I personally think he has 4 years to fulfill his agenda. If you don’t want to vote for him again or give him money…then give it to another candidate.
Orpheus_lost
@Movement Guy: We can definitely start with the assumption that I’m an asshole. I’m an asshole to you because you are spreading lies and distortions in order to get people to stop working in their own interests. I’m actually proud of being an asshole to you, and yes, I do feel superior – not because of those terrible “nasty things” I typed, but because I’m arguing from an honest perspective while you are not. That isn’t disagreement, that calling out your lies.
You even lie as you whine about being called mean names. The inoculation theory that you espouse has been proved to fail every time it has been tried. Just to keep it within this administration, we heard that Obama was just inoculating the homophobes with McClurkin, then Warren, then Warren again, then by not mentioning H8, or Iowa, or Maine, or New Hampshire, etc…, and then by the DOJ DOMA brief, yet the religious right just keeps attacking nonstop. How many fucking shots of GLBT Opression do you think they need before their hateful disease goes into remission? What the fuck more can Obama offer them short of our genitals in a jar to make Damn sure we don’t fuck the wrong hole again? You know this but continue to push the lies. I’m asking why but you refuse to be honest and admit you’re working to keep us down.
Same goes for your asinine rebuttal on marriage. To be brief, your argument is that because a few vocal, yet ignorant, people say stupid things we are all assimilationists and you’re actually protecting us from ourselves by trying to prevent it. Sounds like a self-hater or a liar to me. I’m really thinking both.
And finally, back to DADT. You suggest that because Bush used stop loss to keep wounded and traumatized soldiers on the field that ALL stop losses would do the same. To anyone who got beyond the 2nd grade this is a specious argument at best. By issuing a stop loss to prevent GLBTers from being dismissed Obama could actually afford to bring back MORE of those disabled soldiers instead of keeping them in the field. Once again, you lie and distort.
So why don’t we come to this agreement: I’m an asshole and you are a lying, self-hating, paid shill for the DNC? Go back to your “lucrative job in academia” because you’re not helping any of us here at all.
TANK
@SM:
Every bullshit half assed stupid excuse you can vomit up. It’s never been nor never will be either or. Despite the two wars and the economy, he managed to reverse the ban on stem cell research and the mexico city policy.
timncguy
@Movement Guy: Ok, I repented and looked it up for you.
November 29, 2007: “As president, I will work with Congress and place the weight of my administration behind enactment of the Military Readiness Enhancement Act, which will make nondiscrimination the official policy of the U.S. military. I will task the Defense Department and the senior command structure in every branch of the armed forces with developing an action plan for the implementation of a full repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. And I will direct my Secretaries of Defense and Homeland Security to develop procedures for taking re-accession requests from those qualified service members who were separated from the armed forces under Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and still want to serve their country. The eradication of this policy will require more than just eliminating one statute. It will require the implementation of anti-harassment policies and protocols for dealing with abusive or discriminatory behavior as we transition our armed forces away from a policy of discrimination. The military must be our active partners in developing those policies and protocols. That work should have started long ago. It will start when I take office.” (Senator Barack Obama to the Human Rights Campaign)
timncguy
@SM: Obama promised to be our Fierce advocate and use the bully pulpit to advance our issues.
By definition the Bully Pulpit is used in PUBLIC, not behind the scenes.
Orpheus_lost
@timncguy: He’s been handed that quote before, Timncguy, but he still continues to repeat the lie that it doesn’t exist, just as he continues to lie and distort every other GLBT civil rights issue he comes across.
My only consolation in this is that since he is such a pathological liar, it’s very unlikely that he works for a GLBT non-profit so the real damage to the cause should be minimal.
Then again, based on his arguments he could be Joe Solmonese….
timncguy
@SM: you start with “Prove it…”
There you go again, another 5-year old type statement. I half expect your next post will begin with
I know you are , but what am I!
Movement Guy
@Orpheus_lost:
Wow. You’re dumb. You keep screeching about “lies” I’m telling. Name one. You don’t have an argument. You have a tantrum.
You equate bad policy as precedent for what you think is a good policy. You’re okay with transgender folks being thrown under the bus, just so you don’t can, what? get married?
As an actual lawyer pointed out, this whole shit storm was kicked up by Americablog’s distortion and hysteria about the DOJ briefing. Here’s something that should untwist your panties:
2. “Comparing us to incest and pedophilia” claim is overstated and does not withstand any serious, legal scrutiny.
This claim, to which I’ve previously objected, has been Aravosis’s claim to fame on the brief, with him taking credit whenever anyone uses the claim.
Here’s the actual line — yes, only one sentence, and not really even a sentence but just a list of cases (called a “string cite”) after a sentence — from the brief:
And the courts have widely held that certain marriages performed elsewhere need not be given effect, because they conflicted with the public policy of the forum. See, e.g., Catalano v. Catalano, 170 A.2d 726, 728-29 (Conn. 1961) (marriage of uncle to niece, “though valid in Italy under its laws, was not valid in Connecticut because it contravened the public policy of th[at] state”); Wilkins v. Zelichowski, 140 A.2d 65, 67-68 (N.J. 1958) (marriage of 16-year-old female held invalid in New Jersey, regardless of validity in Indiana where performed, in light of N.J. policy reflected in statute permitting adult female to secure annulment of her underage marriage); In re Mortenson’s Estate, 316 P.2d 1106 (Ariz. 1957) (marriage of first cousins held invalid in Arizona, though lawfully performed in New Mexico, given Arizona policy reflected in statute declaring such marriages “prohibited and void”).
These were three cases about marriages, which were valid in one jurisdiction, not being allowed under the laws of another jurisdiction. There is nothing further. The brief does not ever use the words “incest” or “pedophilia.” And, by the way, the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR), the standard for diagnosis, defines pedophilia as involving “sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).” Under that definition, there is not even a case involving pedophilia appearing in the brief at all — which is likely the reason that no mainstream publication has repeated that claim.”
http://lawdork.wordpress.com/2009/06/17/chairman-frank-and-aravosiss-misstatements/
Crying that Obama is comparing us to pedophiles is the specious argument, as is your lack of knowledge about basic civics, like separation of powers. Please revisit your high school social studies classes for how the government actually works, instead of arguing for disastrous Bush-era policies to get your way.
Movement Guy
@timncguy:
“It will start when I stake office” is not “It will be repealed when I take office.” I’m sorry if you can’t understand English.
Please continue the circular firing squad, some of us have actual work to do.
michael
As redundant as it may be to say this I think we need to ever remind ourselves of who Obama is and not what he says he might be. Obama is a man who tossed his long time minister to the side, a minister who was pro gay. His minister made statements against America, like almost half the population did under the Bush administration. He kicked him to the curb because it pleased the religious right. Now, that shows a man with a lot of ego and not much spiritual conviction. Obama selects that Queen whose name escapes me and is not worth googling to entertain on his campaign trail, that queen being a “reformed” queen, very insulting to gays but pleasing to the religious reich. Finally he chooses Pastor Warren, another gay hating champion of the right. Now this is what Obama’s actions say he is. And as the cliche goes, well you all know how it goes.
timncguy
@Movement Guy: i never said he promied to repeal it on his first day. You asked if he provided a timeframe for any of his promises. And he did, he promised to start the process of repealing DADT when he took office. That was a promise and a timeframe. You are apparently the person with comprehension difficulties.
SM
Hate Crimes Legislation is almost through the Senate and Senators are working on Legislation to end DADT.
GODDDAM OBAMA AND NO GOOD DEMOCRATS! Its not fast enough!
Bunch of bitter, ungratefull Queens…all of you!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-kirsten-gillibrand/i-stand-with-lt-dan-choi_b_217364.html
kademonster
it’s funny that the 20 gays who still support Obama are becoming a SEVERE minority. Almost as popular as the gays who supported Bush. I didn’t vote Obama because I called his bullshit from day one. Not that I thought Hilary would have been much better… and surely not thinking McCain would be a wiser choice… just saying most of the minorities that he made big promises to are starting to turn their noses up at him because he went from being mr. progressive to a regular moderate president. at least Bush had the balls to let his conservatism hang low.
jeffrey
Movement Guy and SM want to be part of the problem. The rest of us want to be part of the solution.
Movement Guy, especially, just enjoys being contrary to get attention. Ignore him and watch his head explode. First, he won’t be able to resist making some snarky retort to this post, even though he said he was going to bed about 8 posts before his last one. He might even start with something really pithy like “first let’s assume you’re an asshole”.
If anyone is not furious with what has taken place so far from the Obama administration towards our community, they haven’t been paying attention.
If anyone is telling you to sit down and shut up and wait for the right time, they are no friend to human rights and human dignity.
SM
@jeffrey:
BAH!
I was out on street corners fighting your precious HUMAN RIGHTS AND HUMAN DIGNITY in Conservative parts of CA and out of the MILLIONS OF GAY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES…BARELY ANY SHOWED UP to stand beside me.
Don’t you DARE BASH OBAMA WITHOUT BASHING YOUR ENTIRE LAZY COMMUNITY!
SICK OF IT!!!!!!!
jeffrey
@Movement Guy: you said “So no funding for people with AIDS until gay can get married? I’m with Majorie on this one.”
What a straw man you set up there! I would be with Marjorie on that one too, if anyone had actually offered such a ridiculous choice. But you are the only one who framed the topic in that way.
Let me try to put it in a way that you might not misconstrue:
No money to Obama or the DNC until they make good on their promises. When Obama actually demonstrates that he is a ‘fierce advocate’ instead of just claiming he is, he gets our support again.
Give to candidates who actually walk the walk.
Is that so hard to understand?
And gays can already get married, smartass, we just want our marriages to have the same validity and benefits in every state and federally that ‘opposite’ marriages have.
schlukitz
@michael:
The Queen you are referring to was Donnie McClurkin.
Quack. Quack. ;P
schlukitz
@SM:
“SICK OF IT!!!!!!!”
Good. Then get the fuck out of our faces.
WE’RE SICK OF YOU!
What part of that do you not get?
Brian Miller
@Movement Guy: So when the Republicans recapture the Senate in 2010 and effectively block any pro-gay legislation for the remainder of Obama’s first term, what’s next?
That’s no change from the status quo, really.
Democrats who cannot pass the legislation when they have a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, a supermajority in the house, and the presidency might as well be Republicans.
We gave ’em their supermajority that they demanded. Now, they either make good on their promises, or they lose it. Period.
Orpheus_lost
@Movement Guy: Wow! I must be dumb. I list out your lies and then say they are lies but you still come back and say that I’m not showing where you lied? Yep, I must be a real moron for bothering to go through that trouble when really all anyone needs to know is that you are a liar. In fact, you’re a very bad liar who can do little beyond parrot the lies of others in your attempt to hold down the GLBT community. So yes, I’m dumb – but I’m willing to learn. From now on I’ll just link this thread when I let people know what a fucking stupid liar you are and that way I save the trouble of having to type it all out again.
And just so that everyone sees it nice and clear…
MOVEMENT GUY IS A MENTALLY DISTURBED, SELF HATING LIAR!
Cam
@M Shane: you said “Gays had better figure out really fast that this is the most progressive President we’ve had. This country is definitely in need of humungus changes.
For Qyueerty or anyone to suggest that we not support Obama is the most underhanded Neocoln trick I have ever seen . You can’t expect to get anything unless you do something but whine. There is not one solitary reason fro this kind of trash unless you are Republican reactionaries.”
____________________________________________________________
So overseeing the submission of a DOJ brief that backs up DOMA by comparing gay relationships to Incest is progressive? Just because the chicken pox are better than the mumps doesn’t mean I want to get either one!
Movement Guy
@Orpheus_lost:
LOL. Wow. It’s really pathetic how you’re constantly having to resort to name calling because I disagree with your temper tantrum tactics regarding the DNC. You have chosen here and there to pick at things I’ve written without actually dealing with any of my arguments. Instead, my arguments are “lies.” And because I’m not willing to throw myself on the floor and scream and cry, I’m “self-hating.”
No reaction to the Law Dork post that puts the lie to the hysteria launched by Americablog. This whole anti-Obama wave has been launched by a convenient misreading of the DOJ brief to make it sound like the president was calling us child molesters. It’s not true. Read the brief, instead of marching in lock-step with a few bloggers looking to promote themselves.
Orpheus_lost
@Movement Guy: MOVEMENT GUY IS A MENTALLY DISTURBED, SELF HATING LIAR!
This really is much easier. I’m glad I thought of it, liar.
Jeffrey
@Movement Guy: “No reaction to the Law Dork post that puts the lie to the hysteria launched by Americablog. This whole anti-Obama wave has been launched by a convenient misreading of the DOJ brief to make it sound like the president was calling us child molesters. It’s not true. Read the brief, instead of marching in lock-step with a few bloggers looking to promote themselves.”
I’ve read the brief. Americablog was pointing out how incredibly insulting it was for them to use cases that involved incest and underage marriage to justify discrimination against gays and lesbians. It can be argued that Arovosis spun this a little bit to make it sound even worse. But it was still completely unnecessary and incredibly insensitive considering the context of the entire incident and Americablog and the rest of us are right to be furious over it.
You can set aside that whole incest/pedophile controversy–completely disregard it–and still find PLENTY of outrageous, ridiculous and terribly insulting things in that DOJ brief.
So why do you think you can discount our anger over it just by going after Americablog over this one point?
Is it ok for the DOJ to argue that it is ok for the government to deny marriage equality to gays and lesbians because it would SAVE THEM MONEY?
Is it ok for them to argue that gays and lesbians aren’t being denied marriage rights because they can always just marry someone of the opposite sex???
Is it ok for them to argue that denying gays and lesbians marriage equality DOES THEM NO HARM?????
The brief is odious and disgusting, especially when it comes from the administration of a “fierce advocate”; someone who says it is unjust, discriminatory and needs to be repealed.
So this whole “anti-obama wave” (which Obama has been bringing on himself over several weeks) is not just from a “misreading” of a portion of the brief, but from a very clear reading of the whole thing.
Orpheus_lost
@Jeffrey: Good luck, Jeffrey. I’ve spelled out how Movement Guy is wrong in several threads now and he just comes back with the same lies and distortions never acknowledging that he’s been proved wrong. That’s why I now just say…
MOVEMENT GUY IS A MENTALLY DISTURBED, SELF HATING LIAR!
TANK
@SM:
Why is this bigot here posting ad nauseam? It’s disgusting. THis bigoted piece of shit is either a closet case or insane.
schlukitz
@Orpheus_lost:
It’s apparent that you have not been successful in winning either Movement Guy’s heart or his mind. *wink*
schlukitz
@TANK:
“Why is this bigot here posting ad nauseam?”
I keep asking myself the same question. Why aren’t people flagging him?
Orpheus_lost
@schlukitz: That presupposes the concept that Movement Guy has either a heart or a mind to win over. Personally, I just say:
MOVEMENT GUY IS A MENTALLY DISTURBED, SELF HATING LIAR!
(I’m really enjoying posting this. Thanks for the excuse. LOL!)
Brian Miller
Stop attacking the President! He owns your asses, faggots! So do we Democrats! Get to the BACK OF THE BUS NOW!
Raymond S. Decelles-Smith
Clearly, all I know is that the deputy executive director of MASS EQUALITY, a GAY INCORPORATED organisation, attended the DNC function with Biden at the Fenway in Boston.
This man clearly walked across the GLBT picket line and walked into the event. Maybe the GLBT community will remember this betrayal the next time that they receive a request for donations from GAY INC organisations like MASS EQUALITY, and put them in the “spam file.”