Sen. Carl Levin, the Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman, has no problem with this little DADT survey the Pentagon is sending around like malware. So long as the American public never, ever learns how soldiers feel about showering with homosexuals.
Levin “can understand the resentment in the gay community” over the survey, he said this morning at a Christian Science Monitor-sponsored breakfast. And while “it’s a very good idea to get the attitude of the troops on things, provided it’s clearly understood it’s just a question to help guide decision makers to the extent it’s relevant,” let’s not give them the assumption “the military’s a democracy” or that they’ve got “veto power” over Pentagon leaders — or elected officials.
But what about when the survey is completed, and research firm Westat tallies the results? Won’t we all get to have a look? “I want to satisfy my doubts about the content of the survey,” says Levin, who says he hasn’t seen the questionnaire. “I’m not sure that it is a fair survey until I read it and satisfy myself. … But in any event, it should not be released in my judgment. It was intended to be a private survey, it should stay that way. I have no hopes that’ll be the case, but I can always dream.”
So, not only does the Senate’s military topper not believe the Pentagon can ensure soldersi’ privacy in answering the questions (as Defense Sec. Robert Gates insisted), but he also wants to make sure the data that’s about to determine how the military handles gays post-DADT is, in a perfect world, never released for your consumption. Man, pessimist much?
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Jeff Atwood
So much for transparency in government. How about releasing all those other studies about gays in the military going back…30 years? Check this report from 1992: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gao_report.html
Bill
“”it’s a very good idea to get the attitude of the troops on things”
You know, just like the surveys that were sent out to see how white soldiers ‘felt’ about serving alongside black soldiers.
Or like that other time when they sent out surveys to see how men ‘felt’ about women serving alongside them.
What’s that? They never DID those other surveys???? That can’t be. They’d never single out gay citizens for this particular form of abuse, would they?
Jesus Christ, these people have spent so much time and energy demonizing and dehumanizing us that they actually appear to have purchased their own bullshit.
Brutus
@Bill: Just because they never did those things doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have been a good idea.
Brutus
The aggregated results should absolutely be made public.
Pete
I don’t really see anything wrong with surveying the troops on the issue, as long as the results are used to determine the best way to handle troop reactions to the repeal, not to determine whether or not DADT gets repealed at all. Unfortunately, I think that is what many people are going to use the survey for — to say that the troops aren’t ready for a repeal.
tjr101
I get the feeling that the responses to this survey will be horrendously ignorant yet will be a true reflection of what people are thinking. Comments like “don’t drop the soap” will be among the responses.
Military culture is very conservative and backward which is what will be seen if this survey if released. Heck, you just have to read the bigot comments on yahoo to see what’s out there.
slobone
Levin says, “I’m not sure that it is a fair survey until I read it and satisfy myself.”
Hmm, I guess I must have a dirty mind…
Brutus
@Pete: We’ve had this precise exchange in other threads. The survey is, as you suggest, to be used to determine HOW to process DADT repeal. Not whether.
ewe
OPPRESSIVE ACTIVE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST GAY MEN. Do you have any idea how many straight boys check me out UP AND DOWN at the gym. This is disgraceful and OUR government should be sued if these surveys continue.
Ken S
Like the man said, the military isn’t a democracy, so I don’t think they should even be conducting the survey. How troops ‘feel’ about it- nevermind how their families feel about it- should take second place to following orders from their civilian government. No, scratch that- it should take third place; following orders should take second place to *doing the right thing.*
But they’ve gone ahead with it anyway, so that’s the situation before everyone now. Given that, I think that *under the circumstances* he’s actually right about not releasing the aggregated results. For one pretty major reason: all along people have carped on about how they have to consider “the morale and unit cohesion of the troops.” Well suppose they release the results, and find that 50, or 25, or even 10% of the respondents said “I don’t care to serve alongside fags and I might shoot one in the back if we were in a foxhole together.” How do you suppose *that* will effect the “morale and unit cohesion” of every GLBT person in uniform? Actually having a number sitting like a festering turd in your gut– “half/a quarter/one out of ten of these people I live and work with SAID they might shoot me in the back!”
I think that no matter how positive the results- no matter how many are accepting or even indifferent- *any* results that outright confirm hostility towards GLBT service-members is going to adversely effect their morale and their sense of unit cohesion. It’s got to be bad enough knowing that it’s there, I don’t think it serves much good to release statistics on it. And besides that, the respondents *were* promised confidentiality, and sometimes “government transparency” can actually involve keeping your mouth shut when you say that you will. If they promised one thing and did the exact opposite how exactly would that *improve* their credibility?
sixfeetunder
Am still sickened that no such survey was administered re blacks in the military. Truman just signed an order and poof, it was done! No segregated military. Why can’t Obama do this?
ewe
And no one is interested in trolls that look like Senator Carl Levin. These sick public servants are vicariously living their kinky shit through your taxdollars being mispent on discriminating against homosexual people. Fuck them.
Bob R
@Bill: They did do those surveys, at least for attitudes about blacks serving in the military. There was a link to the survey results on a HuffPo response a few days ago. The survey and the documents are available on the Truman Documents website. I think the survey for black integration was done after the fact. Having reviewed the survey results, I was surprised to find the majority of whites had no problems with Truman’s integration orders. The problems came from, where else, the officer corps. The rank and file, not so much. As for attitude about women serving, I don’t recall any, but there may have been.
But, the bottom line is Truman had the courage of his convictions to give the order and let the chips fall where they may politically. Our recent crop of Democrat politicians are cowards and vacillate because they fear the military more than they command it. Clinton was a “triangulator” who was buffaloed by Colin Powell who threatened to have a public hissy fit, make a scene, resign and take other senior officers out the door with him. Clinton failed to call his bluff. Thus the DADT “compromise”. Clinton could have given the order and it would have all been over. I doubt Powell would have followed through. He proved to be a liar and self serving phony during the run-up to the Iraq war.
Obama is like Clinton in some ways. He fears his military chiefs and that is why he waited so long to can General McChyrstal. He has allowed the Pentagon to become a fourth branch of government. I expect nothing from Obama any more and so I’m not disappointed by his flip-flops, lies and failures. As his idiot predecessor said, “fool me once, can’t get fooled again”.
PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
First and foremost the military is the furtherst thing in the world from a democracy where those in the lower ranks have any say in any aspect of their existence. The rankings down determine that those at each lesser rank are expected to be in full compliance with all directives that come from above. No questions asked any time for any reason. “Military cohesivness” is the reason and never on any issue prior to this has there even been a discussion of having input from enlisted men. More vile bullshit that we the second class citizens of this country are subjected to. As correctly pointed out above there was never any questions asked when Blacks and women were intergrated into the ranks. The white supremacists were never asked “would you mind at all sharing your shower with a colored fellow”? They were issued an order and expected to follow it, if not they were subject to punishment.
Only we, the Gays have to put up with this absolute fucking bullshit where vile scumbags who revel in casting hate upon our community are pandered to and allowed to spew this garbage at every single fucking opportunity…………
Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
@Brutus:
“The survey is … to be used to determine HOW to process DADT repeal. Not whether.”????
If peddling Kool Aid were a felony like peddling crack you’d be serving five back-to-back life sentences.
OR are YOU in a better position to know what’s really going on than the Secretary and Chief of the Army? I think that would require you to either be the Secretary of Defense or the President of the United States as those are the only higher jobs than those held by McHugh and Casey who sent this e-mail to all their troops:
“From: General Officer Management Office (GOMO)
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010. 2:29 AM
Subject:SA/COS Sends: “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”
Importance: High
Troops,
We know many of you were disappointed in the House of Representatives and Senate Armed Services Committee votes on the repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Understandably, such an action taken before the men and women of the Armed Forces were consulted could be seen as a reversal of our commitment to hear the views of our Soldiers and Families before the law was repealed. It should not be.
You should know that the amendment passed last night does preserve our prerogatives to provide our informed advice to the Secretary of Defense and the President before the law is repealed. It contains a provision that the amendment will not go into effect until the President, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff complete the review and certify that the implementation of the policies and regulations to implement the repeal are consistent with the standards of military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion, and recruiting and retention.
Please get this information to your soldiers and Families and ask them to RESIST THAT URGE TO THINK THAT THIS IS A ‘DONE DEAL’ and that their input is unimportant. It is imperative that they continue to provide their candid responses to the review team. We remain committed to hearing your views and concerns conveying them to our leadership before going forward on such an important issue in a time of war. ….
Secretary of the Army John McHugh
Army Chief of Staff Gen, George W. Casey”
unclemike
If they paid for it with my tax dollars, they damn well better make the results public.
I’d rather they not waste my tax dollars on this kind of bullshit in the first place.
Bob R
@sixfeetunder: Because Truman had military and combat experience, Obama and Clinton have none. Truman was an artillery officer (Captain) in WWI, so he knew how the military worked. Obama, like Clinton fear the military hierarchy and are intimidated by them. I guess experience and leadership do count for something when electing a president. Either that or we need a president with courage and conviction and not someone with neither.
Deferr
@unclemike:
if they release names of who’s against it sure, they are the bigots who should be getting kicked out
B
It’s rather telling that comment No 3 got hidden due to negative ratings when all it said was, “Just because they never did those things doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have been a good idea.”
Gee. Someone points out that sometimes you learn something new over time and start doing things as a result that you didn’t do before, and that innocuous observation is censored.
BTW, the current polling methods were just coming into use around 1940, and Gallup and Harris did not start as businesses until around 1947, with some research groups active before World War II.
Also, the more sophisticated techniques for data analysis really require a computer. Those weren’t widely available when Truman integrated the U.S. military, so it is hardly surprising that polls were not used at that time.
Jaroslaw
#19 I’ve been asking for a while that the up/down comments be eliminated. I don’t see the purpose to “hide” a comment. It seems juvenile. Blogs exist to exchange ideas.
ewe
There is one person to blame for all of this at this particular point and that is our president.