You may remember the gay soldier who came out to his dad on YouTube the day that Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell got repealed. One hour after chatting with his dad, he decided to come out to his more conservative mom… and it didn’t go quite as well as it did with his papa.
Mom sounds like a rough and tumble gal—she answers the phone “Hey boy!” and when her son asks if she loves him, she responds, “What kinda question is that?” He has to repeat that he’s gay three times until she understands and once it sinks it she asks, “Well, when did this come about?” The news actually surprises and shocks her into silence—providing the long uncomfortable silences that only a mother can make.
You can tell she’s not comfortable with the news as she asks him “How do you know?” and “Do you know what it says in the bible about that?” But it’s important to realize that parents aren’t always ready to take up a rainbow flag and start marching alongside their kids in a Pride parade once they realize their kid is gay. Sometimes they need a while to adjust to the new image of their child, reconsider their child’s upbringing from a gay point of view, and figure out whether a wife and grandkids are still in the cards.
“Do you know what it says in the bible about that?”
Yes, actually. Nothing at all. The bible doesn’t mention homosexuality at all. Sure, there are modern “translated by bigots for simpletons” versions, but they utterly deviate from what historical context proves.
the bible contains condemnations of pederasty, sexual slavery, rape, and prostitution in temples.
levitical laws against “same-gendered sex” are to be understood along the lines of the very specific Levitical dietary laws: people were getting sick, tribal numbers needed to be maintained. how to keep numbers up? insist that the things that are/could be reducing numbers are “sinful” – BOOM, nobody eating ‘bad food’ to get sick anymore, and people refraining from …well, whatever sex was happening.
now, taking this into account, it makes no sense for a “Christian” to reference Levitical law, as Christ’s sacrifice (theologically speaking) “saved us all” from having to follow Levitical law. they aint followed by Christians. For a “Christian” to quote from Leviticus is for that Christian to state that Christ in fact FAILED in his mission on the cross.
so, suck on that Mom.
but there are actually no biblical mentions nor condemnations of homosexuality.
what’s more, the two boldest declarations of love in the entire bible are expressed between two same-sex “couples” – Ruth & Naomie, Jonathan & David.
here’s hoping that this man can get his mother to a PFLAG meeting. His father and stepmother (or was it father’s new girlfriend?) can help by showing that they have no problem with him.
family members respond to this ‘news’, and react to it, in different ways. it’s up to the more accepting members to work with the gay person to bring them around.
check it: http://youtu.be/9Z9w8PinzW4
Same thing happened to me when I came out. My father, the strict often abusive head of the family, accepted me with open arms and 100% of his love immediately, my mother on the other hand picked up a kitchen knife and followed me all over the house screaming, telling me she was to cut my dick off and make me a woman. She was restrained by my dad and an uncle and after 30 minutes of hell, she changed her mind and decided that she was not going to castrate me but that she would castrate any man who dare ever stick his dick in me (her words). Lucky for all those men I am 100% top, so we all lived happily ever after.
Yeah, my mother was less-than-thrilled when I came out + asked all kinds of silly questions like whether anyone “influenced” me (i.e. if I saw someone on TV, in the media, etc. who made it seem “cool” or desirable to be gay). Which, admittedly, I was kind of flip in answering. I was offended by her questions, but I needed to realize that what she was going through in hearing the news was tough, too.
My ideal guy.
@Little Kiwi: Thank-you for posting that. I bears repeating… over and over and over.
It is such a shock how many people are completely unaware that the Bible says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about homosexuality.
We must NEVER miss a chance to repeat it.
@Little Kiwi: Thank-you for posting that. It bears repeating… over and over and over.
It is such a shock how many people are completely unaware that the Bible says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about homosexuality.
We must NEVER miss a chance to repeat it.
and before some troll comes on to talk about “Sodomy”….I’ll prove ’em wrong with this:
@Little Kiwi: Well, unless you count Paul’s idiotic ramblings where he references the Levitical laws regarding same-sex intercourse including the Bible’s only mention of lesbian intercourse.
The fact is, whether or not it was meant to be part of a set of temporary laws for a nomadic tribe or an immutable commandment for all peoples of all time, it’s in there and it’s repeated by the epileptic douchebag bigot Saul/Paul. It’s best, instead of trying to interpret the hate out of the Bible or pick around the icky parts, to just dump the whole thing and get your beliefs from evidence and rationality instead.
Throw your Bible in the trash. Spread the word and we’ll be on the path to peace in no time.
@Reed, Oh you gotta love Paul, eh? The dude who never met Christ, yet ..uh…”sorta met Him after He was dead”…yeahhhh 😉
Even then, the writing of Paul (mainly in Corinthians) aren’t about homosexuality, but about the practice of male soldiers raping other soldiers as an act of domination and humiliation – making them “their women’, which was at the time the biggest insult possible.
But the writings of Paul are chock-full of offensive nonsense that modern-day “Christians” all but ignore. they focus on what they try to interpret as “gay stuff” in order to convince themselves that they’re still Christians.
What I *do* like about the bible, from a modern standpoint, is that we can look at it and go “Wow, look what our species used to believe.”
I’m by no means a bible literalist, my frustration simply comes from those who thump the bible and scream “don’t you know what it says!??!” when all they’re proving is that they are the ones who actually don’t know what it says.
until proponents of “traditional marriage” start enforcing a law that demands all widows who did not bear children must bear the child of their departed husband’s brother, they’re in no place to stop LGBT couples from marrying, or people who don’t subscribe to an interpretation of judeo-christian beliefs.
it’s just so annoying that those who fall back on “the bible” as their excuse for everything are always the ones who know the least about it.
@Little Kiwi: And you expect the average person to discern mythology from divine edict? It’s best just to toss it in the trash and get on with our lives in the here and now.
I don’t expect anything from people who are brainwashed to the point of being incapable of free-thought.
here’s a reality – religion exists. as much as i’d love to join you and say “throw it out” i need to be real and accept the reality that people are not, yet, going to just “throw it out” – especially if there are people who (for whatever reason) are incapable of just “throwing it out”
this is why i see validity in having things like The United Church of Canada, and the MCC’s. Without these organizations there would be no mid-ground. We can’t just say “stop having religion” – it won’t just happen like that.
There is still a lot of good being done by showing people who refuse to give up their faith that they can still maintain “a faith” and what they can give up is the prejudiced BIGOTRY.
you can’t expect someone who feels a “need” to have a religious presence in their life to just “toss it out” – with people like that it’s best to show them that bigotry is not a part of their supposed faith.
that said, a lot of modern-day Christian bigots remind me of that line from Alex Haley’s ROOTS;
slavery has been abolished, and poor angry whites look in fury at the black people because: “Being white was all they had left”
That’s what we’re seeing today – being “Christian” or “straight” is all these people have left. It’s pathetic.
I guess I’ll ask this, Reed, how does one “implement” in a specifically applicable way, the “tossing out of religion.”
Don’t get me wrong, I hear you brother. But how does that truly get done? We can’t force people to give up religion. We can, however, show them that they’re wrong about the things they claim are a part of their religious beliefs. We can expose the double-standards, the hypocrisies, the discrepancies within the bible, but unfortunately we can’t “toss it out” for them.
but LORD do i wish we could.
Thank God I’ve got a mother who didn’t raise me an extension of herself, but with a sense of being my own person. Nor did she ever create the impression that her love was a thing that could come and go, depending on whether I resembled the fantasy kid every parent can’t help fostering in their minds. I was out of the house at 19 and my private life remained my own business if I cared not to share parts of it with her. We’ve had battles, oh yes, but I believe she actually admires me for giving as good as I got. We love each other the same whether the setting is affectionate and calm, or in the heat of argument.
The love between parent and child is the one love that’s supposed to grow toward a healthy separation. This article doesn’t tell us this YouTuber’s age, but once any of us is 18 or more, it’s time to stop living to please either Mom or Dad.
I’m gonna sound cynical, but I couldn’t enjoy or feel happy about the vid of him coming out to his dad, because for me, straight up acceptance like his dad did, is not how reality works imo.
I’m not saying I enjoyed watching the above vid, but It felt closer to reality and what actually happens.
Bryan, what do you mean? if his dad straight-up accepted him, then that’s how it worked for them. it’s less-common, to be sure, but it does still happen.
my parents straight-up accepted me. dinnertable conversation – told the family i was gay and had just started dating a guy. their words? “Wonderful, when can we meet him?”
i was immeasurably aided by the reality that LGBT people had been Out to my parents already. they knew gay people in the community, and from their places of work. thus, my coming out wasn’t a shock of “omg, he’s GAY? what do gay people do?!?! what’s GAY? we don’t know gay people!”
the door was opened for me by LGBT people who made it their business to be Out, to people that they were not in fact related to. people say, sometimes, “Why should I come out to people at work? why should i Come Out to ______ people?” Well, I’m living proof. We open the doors for each other.
while the reactions of my family, and this gay soldiers father and stepmother are indeed in the minority, they do still exist and they should be shown: it’s a great indicator for other parents for “how” to react to this news.
The scripture I’ve found that really gets the fundies going is the part where God created Adam and Eve. After he makes Adam, God decides Adam shouldn’t be alone so he creates a whole bunch of animals for Adam to choose from as his helper (companion). Its not until Adam rejects them all that God comes up with the plan to create Eve. First, an all knowing God would have had Eve in his mind before he started with the universe and second, if Adam had picked one of the animals, there would have been no Eve. None of the bible thumpers can explain it. Most of them don’t seem like they’ve even read it.
the worst part about the whole Adam & Eve thing is that nobody who holds any sort of rank, at all, in any type church actually believes that Adam & Eve are literal historical figures. They all know that they’re allegorical. However, they tell their braindead flocks that they’re literal.
thus, they themselves break the Ninth Commandment to their congregations. It’s so galling I can’t stand it.
@Little Kiwi: That’s you and I’m happy to hear your family was so accepting. But imo and from others experiences, straight up acceptance is usually NEVER the norm, I think cases like yours a few and a rare occurrence. I think most coming out cases usually feature a few moments or times of uncertainty from family members rather than just “I’m gay”,”Oh good for you, we still love you”
People need to stop videotaping every freagin detail of their daily lives online.
I’ve never understood adults who care that much what their parents think. Aren’t you supposed to grow up and realize they’re just other people whose opinions matter no more than anybody on the street? I can see caring what people who you actually admire think, but… I do understand not everyone shares my philosophy on this.
@Bryan, that’s exactly what I just said.
bitch needs a clue and a hearing aid.
@CBRad: Some people actually love their parents and do not equate them with strangers on a street corner. You are right about not everyone sharing your philosophy on that.
@Bryan: How about we reverse that statement and say rather than “Little Kiwi, that’s your experience”, how about “Bryan, that’s YOUR experience.”?
Because in my experience ALL of my friends came out with relative ease to their families. This is over a period of some 35 years. Your experience may differ from mine, and from Little Kiwi’s, but maybe that is because you come from a country where homophobia and inequality are the norm?
Kiwi and I come from a country where equality has been well underway for a much longer time. I live in a province that has had equal rights for LGBT people entrenched in its Rights Declaration since at least the 1980’s.
Is it tougher telling people that you’re gay, or that you’re from Alabama?, people wondered after his last great post on youtube. His Mom has always been a hardass, you can tell. I don’t think she ever was really close to him or others in the family. This was not as bad as the headline suggested. His Dad was totally great, but you have to expect that parents are worried about their own social circles and embarrassment, as well as feeling some disappointment about no grandchildren, carrying on the family name, etc. Also, they are from a part of the country (Alabama) that is tougher on gays. Parents worry about their kids, gay bashing, etc. The son really has his head screwed on properly, has lots of support in the Army and from his Dad, and he will do fine. Also, sometimes news like this confronts an individuals own bigotry, and makes them realize that they themselves must now change, or risk loosing a son.
@ewe: I understand that. I guess some people are afraid of…hurting the feelings of people they love? So I guess, in those cases you just hope for the best, but still…….Once you’re an adult you have to be an independent creature.
Hopefully it will get easier for both of them. Been about 10 years since I told my mom she just refuses to talk about it (Jehovah’s Witness), and my dad keeps insisting that I need to get a girlfriend.
I’m happy though, that they never cut me off, and we sincerely exchange “I love you” on the phone.
Did his mom enjoy her walk with Billy Bob Thornton in Sling Blade?
My Dear Young Friend,
It is difficult to express in words my respect for you. Your strength of character and authenticity. The courage to share your identity with those you truly love. To face their judgement and potential rejection. I honor you, and hold you up as an example, for “this above all else, to thine own self be true.”
I can’t help but question why he even had a girlfriend. It’s pretty easy to not date a girl and simple spin stories to your parents.
Part of it is envy a little because I’ve tried pretending to like a girl and it was a pain. Let alone the one time I did sleep with my ex it took forever to get into it.
It is slightly annoying and rude to his gf. She cares about him and he basically was using her as a beard. Even IF he cares for her as a friend, she was still his beard.
I’d like to think the long silences were Mom thinking about all the horrible shit she’d said to parents with gay kids, and all the terrible things she’d thought about gay guys.
“All this time I’ve been judging my son and myself?”
You’re citing Genesis 2. Genesis 1 has God creating two creatures out of dirt. The two accounts recount an order of creation that is entirely contradictory and cannot even sorta be reconciled.
This is how I point out to the “The Bible is the infallible word of God” folks how the Bible contradicts itself starting on page 2.
Mom sounds like a typical christian, I am sooooo sick of those people
Jeez…he’s such a drama queen I can’t understand how they DIDN’T know…
Ugh…what I would to do him if I ever got my hands on him. 😛
My last boyfriend looks a lot like him except he was a fucking whore and I didn’t know it.
What an attention whore to put this private situation on the Internet. “Cringe“ is right. Mom will come around..it`s a bit unfair to expect people to immediately behave as you see fit.
“I’m worried about your spiritual being….and you better be too…”
That’s…..wow. What’s a son to say to that?
I tell you, if there is a hell, it must be full to the brim with Christians…
I know this isn’t going to be taken well, but I really don’t like the idea of recording a coming-out phone call with your parents and putting it on YouTube.
It’s obvious that she can’t hear half of what’s going on. On top of him doing this over a shitty phone connection, she’s obviously having issues processing him coming out. He also spends way too much justifying himself based on other people, which just gives her a bigger platform to condescend from.
That aside, he should be proud of being able to share this part of his life with his parents. Congrats, dude.
When I came out the first thing my mom said was “Theres aids out there” It ended with her telling me I was no longer her son and she didn’t love me. She has always been the liberal and who I’ve been closest too, so I was appalled by her reaction. But over the last year she has started to understand it’s not a choice and we’ve started talking again. Some people just need time to work it through. After all it took me 20 Years to come out. On the other hand my dad who was the conservative and was always firm and strict was completely opposite and told me he loved me no matter what and if its who I was then that was fine. So even if there is that initial rejection remember people do change. Just make sure you have support ready to go when that worst case is realized. It helps.
Wow, is his Mom black? You know only black people are homophobic, right!
This guy is angling for his own show on Logo. What’s next? Coming out to his 3rd grade teacher? His mail carrier? The barrista at the Coffee Bean? Give it a rest.
I agree! It is upsetting enough for a parent to have their child come out, but to videotape it and then post it on the internet is disgusting and not fair. This is a private family moment. I’m sick and tired of these people who are so starved for attention that they feel the need to show personal moments of their lives.
I think that parents who had big hopes and expectations for their kids getting married and having kids, need time to grieve the loss of what they thought they had. This mother sounds like she’s not too happy with the news, but then she didn’t mention too much about losing grandchildren, but mentioned the Bible instead. So she’ll probably have to do the evaluation of her fundamentalist beleifs, and come to some resolution over which she values more — her current religion condemning her son, or finding something more reasonable.
Either way, it won’t be easy for her.
I’d like to see an interview with her in another 10 years, to see how things turned out.
Best wishes to all,
Can’t wait for the coming out video to my third twice removed cousin…
What a brave young man. Speaking as a Viet Nam Vet, I see no harm in allowing homosexuals in the armed forces.
I’m not surprised if a mother has a hard (or harder time) processing the news that her child is gay. Despite the inroads women have made in terms of equality, there’s still a subtle message that parents, particularly mothers, are to blame for every behavior/trait exhibited by their child. Motherhood comes with a great deal of baggage when it comes to raising kids.
@ron: He put it on the net simply to give people a perspective of what it’s like coming out. Some people, including myself used to look down on guy like him that took forever to come out. Granted I learned long before his videos, but still. Don’t bash him for trying to help
When will be his shirtless cover spread on Advocate magazine?
That’s all I wanna know.
While coming out is a healthy thing to do, this is not the way to go.
In spite of her reaction, I’d bet this mother will come around. How she reacts to having this private conversation recorded and broadcast all over the world is another matter.
Sorry for my mistakes in english as I’m a frenchman living in France and my english is as good as possible (lol).
1) I’m amazed how courageous this guy is. In parts of the phone call with his mom, it seemed to me that it was a responsible father talking to an innocent gentle daughter rather than a mother speaking with his son about ethics in leading one’s life. He seeks for moral relief inside in his family and he’s the one who has to say and to repeat: I love you, he has to lead the whole conversation, her mother never tries to help him on this topic, she doesn’t fill in the blanks in the conversation.
2) I don’t blame the mother for being so little enthusiastic. Her words are terrible, I’m ok, we are all ok about that. But those words might be spontaneous. And we don’t know her life. Listening to this video, I thought that hearing the confession of her son, maybe she’s living back a painful part of her life (the most painful one ?). A part of her life she didn’t expect to face once more and she didn’t want to reveal, maybe in her lifetime (just see “The Bridges of Madison County” movie). On the first occasion she was “forced” to deal with this subject and spontaneously, her speech can only be terrible. She would have been wiser to stop the phone call earlier. But she can also be missing her son very much. I thought that younger, she could have had a sweet love that she had to break up with when he told her he was gay. Some people can never overcome such a situation they consider a humiliation, a betrayal or a pain in their value system, even in 2011. It has to be respected. I think it can be overcome by talking to the right persons she would have chosen, soon or later. So she can keep spontaneous bad feelings about gays as she no longer has contacts with them, bearing all gays some grudge. She would be trapped between her strong grudge and her love for her son. But I do think she’s a loving mother who could be clumsy from time to time, like all of us. And she’ll improve her behaviour for her son by speaking with him and discovering better by herself what being gay is all about, sweeping away her worst impressions.
He put it on the internet to help other people who have yet to come out. Stop being so negative. And goddamnnn he’s hot.
@Little Kiwi: You nailed it!!!
This guy is in the Air Force and we are at the same base, I don’t know him on a personal level, but I see him at the gym and he has an amazing ass. That is all
This media whore again? Come one, what is he going to do, come to every member of his family like this and post it to seek attention? Dude, go do your freaking work and stop the sideshow. One time, ok, cute. More than that, enough.
Alright, so that didn’t go quite as smoothly as the father, but really, we all know it could have been outstandingly worse. I agree with Dan Savage that parents should be allowed 6 months or a year to freak out, say stupid things, ask stupid questions, and otherwise adjust to the information.
Did the mother say some very stupid things? Absolutely. Do I believe her that she still loves her son? Absolutely. Give her a handful of months, and I bet she’ll come around, especially if the rest of her family is okay with him being gay. I’ve seen that happen with my own family, that the few (relatively silent) detractors eventually just gave up and went with the rest of my family in accepting me.
In terms of “Is this an attention whore stunt” no I don’t think it is. I think videos like this are important in illustrating what the process is like for gay people, what we often go through, how we feel, etc. It’s a shift in visibility. It’s hard to be scared of a gay person when they appear meek and vulnerable like this. When they appear just as anxious and nervous as anyone else trying to tell something important to a parent. Shocking, we’re just like everyone else.
the genius of these videos is that it’s showing parents out there how to “appropriately” react to this news.
i know it’s a shock to many parents, denial is not just a river in egypt 😉
but it’s still stunning how many parents take “mom, dad, i’m gay” as “oh, how this is affecting ME!”
your kid tells you they’re gay. they’ve always been gay. they’ve been dealing with this secret their whole life. ….and a parent can only think about themselves. it’s just mindblowingly selfish. we get mistreated and indeed punished for something we have no control over, and something that isn’t even worth being upset about.
alas, its’ the all-too-common reality.
but kudos to this soldier. these videos are making an impact – all parents, whether they have gay children or not, or even “grown-up” children or not, need to watch them. your child may be gay. look and learn about how to react to it.
As a gay man, it’s unfortunate to see all of the non-acceptance of Christians by the non-believer gays on here. I am more disgusted with you than I am of Christians who seemingly hate homosexuals. You all are soooo full of acceptance, aren’t you?
Joe, if you cannot intellectually distinguish between those who discriminate and promote bigotry and a response TO discrimination and bigotry, then you’re going to have a world of struggle in life.
for example, MY denomination is never criticized or “bashed.” Why? Because we give people no reason to. United Church of Canada, and while in the US i attend services at the Metropolitan Community Church.
No bigotry, no prejudice, no dogma, no exclusivity. No excusing hatred and passing it off as “holy”.
You’re being intellectually dishonest by talking about “non-acceptance of Christians” – there is nothing noble about “accepting” the bigotry and intolerance and promotion of lies and prejudice in the name of Christianity.
Like I said, MY church aint getting the heat. The ones that *are* have utterly earned it. Don’t be mad at “the gays” – be mad at the churches who in this time of economic crises and poverty and war they’re choosing to “hate gays” more than they’re choosing to Help Others.
so, yeah. shame on you.
It’s not intellectually dishonest to point out that gays want acceptance, but they are not willing to accept people of different opinion, yet that is the exact thing that they are expecting from others. You might want to get off your high horse when it comes to your intellectual “superiority”. As for “YOUR” church, whoop de doo. Hand at the gay flags, and condoms.
You can’t ask people to “accept” the promotion of not-accepting diversity.
You might as well be sitting here telling blacks and Jews and gays how “Intolerant” and “unaccepting” they are of the KKK.
I’m not expecting others to “accept” me – I’m expecting them to stick to their own rules. If they have a religious belief, they can follow it. They cannot, however, expect those who dont’ subscribe to those beliefs to be forced to live by them.
It would be akin to Jews and Muslims voting together to ban gentiles from eating pork products.
That’s why your statement is indeed intellectually dishonest.
it’s not about “not accepting different opinions” – it’s not being forced to live by religious beliefs that we do not follow, and our freedom to live in a world and culture that is not predisposed to bigotry against us.
are you gay and are you Christian? if so, what denomination?
I’m an openly gay man and am also openly a member of the United Church of Canada.
@Joe: @Little Kiwi:
Hey Joe, I’d have to agree with Little Kiwi on this one. Gay people (at least the ones in my life) do not hate/non-accept Christians. What we hate/non-accept are bigoted religious beliefs. That said, there are definitely people within the gay community that utterly despise Christianity. Honestly, how can I fault them? The religious right has demanded everything be stripped from us, in some cases even our lives. The religious right contaminates religion in general, and sours the opinion. Why shouldn’t we be aggressively against them?
Personally, I tend to have a pretty intense distrust and dislike of religion. I feel like religions have lost their way, their goals. I feel like religions no longer (or rarely) enrich peoples’ lives, but instead restrict and depress them. So yes, I definitely get a bit of a sneer at the mom in the video, but I’m confident she’ll come around.
The last time I checked, church and state were separate. While Christians believe in a myriad of ways about different subjects, they are not forcing you to live a life that you choose not to live. They may try to influence an agenda, much the same way that gay organizations, but they are not forcing you to do anything. I’m tired of the comments of “those rotten Christians”. Maybe there should be a conversation about the “rotten gays”.
Yes, I am gay and a follower of a Christian church, and I choose not to tell you what my denomination is other than it is not your’s.
The last time I checked, church and state were separate. While Christians believe in a myriad of ways about different subjects, they are not forcing you to live a life that you choose not to live. They may try to influence an agenda, much the same way that gay organizations do, but they are not forcing you to do anything. I’m tired of the comments of “those rotten Christians”. Maybe there should be a conversation about the “rotten gays”.
Yes, I am gay and a follower of a Christian church, and I choose not to tell you what my denomination is other than it is not your’s.
the intellectual dishonesty is saying “you can’t accept their different opinions”
it’s the SPECIFICITIES of those differences. like with the KKK. i don’t dislike them because ‘we have a different opinion’, i disagree with them because their “opinion” is in fact a collection of mistruths borne of bigotry that simply seek to promote exclusivity, prejudice and hatred.
by all means, a church is allowed to be as bigoted as it wants to be. it is not, however, allowed to use their bigoted religious beliefs to affect public policy and law. that would LITERALLY be like Jews pointing to the torah (The Old Testament) and saying “LOOK! it says right there!!” and banning all non-Jews from eating pork.
know what they do instead? they don’t eat pork. well, some do. but that’s not the point.
got a “Christian belief” that puts you against LGBT Equality? Don’t marry a gay person. Don’t have sex with someone of the same sex or gender. Don’t have an abortion. But don’t think that you can force others to live by beliefs that are not theirs.
As I keep saying, my church never is on the receiving end of hatred or ‘bashing’ – because we give people no reason to hate or bash us.
you gotta look with honest eyes and see who started the fire.
i don’t hate “other Christians” – but I am indeed very very very criticial of those who seek to negatively affect the lives of LGBT people due to a one-sided interpretation of one religion.
it makes no sense.
Prop 8 should have been a wakeup call to the Straight community, too. Prop 8 wasn’t just “anti-gay”, it was indeed MORMONS who were affecting the lives of NON-MORMONS. Gay Marriage will never be an issue for the LDS – gay mormons either leave the church, commit suicide (at record-high numbers), or stay closeted and marry some poor lass and have 9 more babies, 3 of which are usually gay as well. No Gay Mormons are going to ask to get married in an LDS Temple. it aint gonna happen. Prop 8 was indeed the LDS affecting the lives of NON-MORMONS, and people need to realize it.
But you can’t say “gays want to be accepted and yet they dont’ accept different opinions” – that’s intellectually dishonest.
you’re asking people to tolerate intolerance and the promotion of intolerance. invalid stance.
Learn to discern.
All I am saying is that many Christians believe homosexuality to be sinful, yet they do believe in loving the sinner, yet hating the sin. When I read comments from gays about the hateful Christians, yet see the hateful language used in those comments, I don’t differentiate between either. The intolerance works both ways.
does your denomination accept LGBT people, Joe? Mine does. Hence why it’s never attacked or bashed. it also accepts non-Christians.
and last time i checked there was no separation of Church and State in America. LGBT people still have discrimination against them written into law and policy in most States, and defenses of this bigotry is always exclusively “religious” in nature.
Gay people can’t marry in the US because of the religious beliefs of others. It makes no sense. IF your religion is against gay marriage, dont’ marry a gay person. To ban others from marrying is like Jews banning gentiles from eating pork.
So, what denomination do you belong to Joe? Why not just say it? I shared my information. I have nothing to hide.
Is your church accepting of LGBT people? Are you openly gay to your entire church community? I am to mine. My entire congregation back home in Canada, and my congregation here in the US, all know that I’m gay. I occasionally volunteer as a lector on sundays, too 🙂
You’re joking right?
“While Christians believe in a myriad of ways about different subjects, they are not forcing you to live a life that you choose not to live.”
So, the religious right didn’t overwhelmingly fund Prop 8 in California, and similar laws in other states? The religious right doesn’t overwhelmingly attempt to maintain/pass anti-gay-marriage laws both on state and federal levels? The religious right doesn’t overwhelmingly try to overturn protective rights for gays? The religious right doesn’t attempt to control the rights of gays, reproductive rights of women, etc?
Hell, if we listened to the religious right, gays are practically on par with super-villains, able to cause earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and general devastation.
I’m sorry, but you simply sound naive. We’re not saying all religion is bad, but the religious right most certainly is. They’re bad press and somewhat evil ways are destructive to your denomination’s cause and image, and you should be mad about it too.
“The intolerance works both ways”
Wrong. You can’t call someone “intolerant” for not tolerating another’s intolerance. thats’ like saying that black people are “Intolerant of the beliefs of the KKK”
it does not make intellectual sense.
are you Out to your entire Christian congregation, Joe? Does your church believe in and promote LGBT Equality?
You’re on that perch again, Little Kiwi. We are both entitled to our opinions, but there is one thing that I don’t need, and that’s your “learn to discern” comments.
A majority of Christians love to infringe on gay americans rights.So pardon me if I do not see half of these people as decent human beings.Not to mention where do you see the similarities between us and them? Do we persecute Christians? SOME NOT ALL. Do we discriminate against Christians? Have Christians been hung bullied threatened killed for being what they are? Do Christians find it hard to get married in this country? Do Christians have to fight for their rights as we do?
NO TO ALL THE ABOVE. There are no similarities so you want to talk about intolerance ive received death threats from CHRISTIANS for being gay.Ive been told my parents should have aborted me at birth for being gay ive been called buttfucker faggot asslover bitchboy nancy mary sodemite disgusting piece of shit inhuman inferior pathetic etc…. ALL those comments came from intolerance so nothing anyone says about Christians is anything close to that kind of intolerance. Most Christians want to shove their beliefs down our throats turn this country into a theocracy and make life a living hell for those of us who do not fit their ridiculous perfect image that their GOD deems worthy.
actually, it appears you do.
you consider it “intolerant” to rise up against institutionalized intolerance. that’s intellectually dishonest.
Jews and Blacks and Gays are not “intolerant” of the KKK – they’re against the KKK’s intolerance of diversity.
this is the same thing with LGBT people and Heterosexuals With Consciences, who are against the promotion of institutionalized bigotry being promoted under the banner of Christianity.
are you Out to your entire church congregation, and does your church promote and believe in LGBT Equality?
You know, you like write about Prop 8, and the Mormon influence, etc. yet what about the blacks who overwhelingly went against Prop 8 in California? Are their churches considered the “religious right”? That term is getting thrown around as if they are solely to blame for that. Not true by any means. With that, I am out of time on here. I may visit again, but doubtful.
@Joe: @Little Kiwi:
Joe, you’re pretty much avoiding everything Little Kiwi is saying and asking. The fact that you won’t even tell us what your denomination is, or if you’re out to your congregation makes me raise a speculative eyebrow.
Part of me thinks you’re just trolling.
“All I am saying is that many Christians believe homosexuality to be sinful, yet they do believe in loving the sinner, yet hating the sin.”
Ah yes, religion loves this one. So, are you saying that you think homosexuality is a sin? Or does your church think it is? Even denominations that DO believe that have no reason or right to try and impact social policy with it.
You know, you like writing about Prop 8, and the Mormon influence, etc. yet what about the blacks who overwhelingly went against Prop 8 in California? Are their churches considered the “religious right”? That term is getting thrown around as if they are solely to blame for that. Not true by any means. With that, I am out of time on here. I may visit again, but doubtful.
Well, since you’re gonna run because you can’t hold your own I’ll just say this: if you can tell gays that you’re a Christian but you can’t tell all of your fellow Christians that you’re GAY then you need to sit and think for a while about what that means.
But thanks for coming on to prove me right. It’s appreciated.
Michael, did you do a survey of the namecallers to even verify if they were “Christians”? Many don’t even attend church, or even think about religion at all, yet they are lumped together with Christians.
Amen to that.
(Felt appropriate both in and out of context)
Joe won’t answer simple and direct questions. What denomination? Are you Out to your congregation? Does your congregation believe in, and indeed promote, LGBT Equality?
Little Kiwi, you’re probably always right, at least in your mind, anyway. Is it not possible that I really need to get off of here right now. Of course it is, but your superiority complex doesn’t allow for that scenario. You must be obnoxious in person. Later.
You can always prove me wrong by answering my very clear and direct questions.
Just because you ask doesn’t mean it’s any of your business. You will not get answers that are none of your business. Got it?
you keep commenting, so clearly you’re not actually going anywhere, so why not just use your responses to honestly answer my very clear and direct questions?
never forget that one speaks volumes with what they choose not to say….
@Little Kiwi: @Joe:
What’s the saying:
The appearance of impropriety is often worse than impropriety itself.”
That said, very well Joe, Just as we have no right to know simple answers like “are you out?” or “What is your denomination?” your religion also has no right to rally against homosexual rights, nor the rights of anyone else. At this point, since you refuse to tell us anything, I’m going to assume you are not out to your congregation, and your denomination is staunchly anti-homosexual.
Prove us wrong.
Also, a while back you mentioned something about black people and prop 8. I’m going to pull from stereotype, so forgive me, but black people tend to either be very religious, or not religious at all. I’ve rarely seen grey area. The very religious tend to be evangelical (though not all). Evangelical tends to be very anti-homosexual. There.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if you can tell the gays that you’re a Christian but you can’t tell all of your fellow Christians that you’re GAY then you need to sit and think for a while about what that means.
Absolutely correct about Kiwi in more ways then one.But you may be correct but the ones Ive ran into have identified themselves as Christians including preaching to me and using bible verses against me. Hell I had one who claimed they wanted to cut me open and do surgery on me for being gay.Ive ran into a specific group on Youtube who mocked my fathers death and made a YT account just to mock me and the loss of my father claiming I was an orphan now laughing about it.
I have sadly not had the best experiences when it comes to Christians.
the gap in logic just confounds me. that one cannot see a response to bigotry and discrimination as being different from an attack on diversity…shocking.
it’s like NOM creating some nonsense group to “protect people who want to protect traditional marriage”
intellectual dishonesty. it’s a group that actively promotes bigotry against gay people. don’t want to get “discriminated against for your religious beliefs?” there’s a remarkably simple solution to that – don’t use your religious beliefs to discriminate against others, especially those who do not share those beliefs.
there. i just saved people a world of issues.
The national publicity that Randy Phillips has won in the media has done more to advance a positive image of gay men than all of the vapid, stereotypical episodes of ‘Glee’, ‘Queer eye for the straight guy’ and ‘A-list NY’ combined. This is the kind of stuff that will eventually drastically reduce homophobia in society, when men like Randy Phillips are able to say “I am gay and I have no problem with it.”
while it’s great, Kieran, that this soldier is representing a segment of the community that has, frankly, not allowed ITSELF to be represented for far too long, i’m confused as to why you’re so upset about Glee and Queer Eye.
Unless you can specifically articulate how the things you perceive as “stereotypes” are inherently harmful then I’m not sure what point you’re making.
some gay boys love musical theatre and singing. it doesn’t mean the prejudice against them is justified. some gay guys are into fashion, decor, dressing well, and knowing how to cook great meals. it doesn’t mean they deserve to be mocked.
just because ignorant people in Straight Society mock some things that are deemed “Stereotypical” does not mean that those things are inherently negative or worthy of belittling.
Characters like Kurt on Glee are incredibly important – those are the boys who are Out in high school (like i was) who get mocked and bullied and insulted for being able to sing and dance. last time i checked, singing and dancing harmed no one.
Imagine if people who “choose” the “left-handed lifestyle” had to worry that they would be rejected and hated by their “normal” right-handed parents, friends and relatives if they admitted being different? It’s cruel, backward and barbaric. People in our society need to be EDUCATED that sexual orientation is no more a “choice” than being born left-handed is a choice.
We live in a world that’s constantly evolving, so let’s speed up the evolution already and move past homophobic ignorance.
Um…. people were persecuted for being left-handed way back when. It was considered wrong in many places, and immoral, even evil in others. Even in America, schools would go to great lengths to teach/force left-handed people to use their right hand instead. In fact, during the industrial revolution, Injuries amongst the left-handed was downright absurdly high.
Granted, much of the left handed hate (Especially in the old world) comes from cultural aspects. In general a person was expected to use their left hand for bathroom duties (so to speak) and right hand for eating. SO, using your left hand was considered quite filthy. There’s also more complicated aspects involving religious views, demons, trustworthiness…. oh the list goes on.
I’m left-handed BTW.
I agree with your basic points kiwi. However, my point is that we’ve got an overload of the traditional gay STEREOTYPES and what we need is MORE BALANCE as to how gay men are portrayed and perceived in the media. When the public thinks “gay” it shouldn’t automatically conjure up an image of Kurt from Glee or a prancing Richard Simmons. Homophobia is more likely to be reduced when we have a healthy balance of gay representation personified by men like Ricky Martin, Don Lemon, and most recently Randy Phillips alongside the ever popular Carson Kressley types.
Where i agree, Kieran, is in your use of the word “alongside”. THAT i love. Too many people would say “instead of” – which will not curb homophobia.
while there are indeed portrayals of characters that people may deem “stereotypical” the reality is that those stereotypes are in no way negative, even if bigots in straight society think that they are.
Kurt is a real character – Kurt was me when I came out in high school. and i was indeed bullied and punished not just for being gay, but for being a gay kid who could dance.
the time is now for gay men who feel they don’t embody “stereotypes” to stand up to be counted and represent THEMSELVES. That a buffed-up soldier and a Carson Kressly can actually command an EQUAL level of respect and fairness.
For nearly a decade there has been a “non-stereotypical” openly-gay character (played by an openly gay actor) on a top-10 TV program: BD Wong on Law & Order SVU. yet people don’t seem to acknowledge this…
While I agree that diversity is important, wholly, the reality is that what is needed is not “breaking stereotypes” but breaking the idea that those stereotypes are “bad”
a gay kid like kurt on glee deserves as much respect, allegiance and support as a gay kid who plays football or joins the military.
i’m sure we both agree on that.
This slut needs to do porn now!!! Hey, call Dustin Lance Bareback, u may get a role in Hollywood!
People have to remember that automatic acceptance isn’t realistic. As gay people we struggled, we sat with it and it took us a while to be right with ourselves. We should expect parents to need some time.
@Joe: “Christians…are not forcing you to live a life that you choose not to live…they are not forcing you to do anything.”
Really? I want to live my life married to my beloved. Christians are forcing me to be single. I want to adopt the child who sees me as her parent. Christians are forcing us to be legal strangers.
I concede, however, this is far better than how Christians USED TO deal with gays, like torturing, then slowly incinerating us and stealing all our property leaving our families destitute. Yes, Christians have become magnanimously tolerant lot by merely relegating us to a life of legal and financial insecurity and second-class citizenship.
Tell your Christian friends I said thanks for that!
As to the question of why gay people aren’t giddy with adoration for Christians, well — I suspect that someday you may solve this mystery with a little bit of investigation.
Best of luck.
hes got an iphone , I wonder if he’s on grinder??
@Joe: You’re MORE disgusted by non-believers? Well isn’t that an oxymoron. Christians are worse than nonbelievers.
“…and figure out whether a wife and grandkids are still in the cards.”
Seriously, am I the only one who caught this? If the guy is gay, why would the possibility of a wife be “in the cards” at all? (Grandkids are a different story, of course.) Who writes these commentaries?
This young guy is really brave. I don’t think I would have been able to have such an honest conversation with my parents about this at his age.
This young guy is really brave. I don’t think I would have been able to have such an honest conversation with my parents about this at his age.
His mom is also sweet – even though she’s clearly struggling with the idea…
@Little Kiwi: I agree that the “homosexuality” in the Bible is part of older laws, just as the laws about when men and women can have sex during the month, whether men can touch women when they’re having their period, etc. The conservative Christians are picking and choosing from the Bible all over the place themselves. I also wanted to add that Jesus himself didn’t say anything about homosexuality. By the way, I’m the wife of an Episcopal priest. We have many gay/lesbian members in our church, and many of my children’s friends have 2 moms. I didn’t cringe while watching this video; I thought the young man was very brave, thoughtful, compassionate and loving while he talked with his mom, and I thought she did the best she could too. I hope someone can educate her about the Bible more so that she doesn’t think he’s in trouble spiritually — she’s just concerned about him, and I thought it was nice that he could see that and know that it would be okay eventually, and that she loved him. I know she’ll eventually be able to be really proud of him again, and that in the meantime he has many others who are assuring him of his worth — in others’ eyes and in God’s.
I’m so lucky I was raised in the United Church of Canada. LGBT members, a lesbian minister, and even non-Christians in our congregation.
it’s amazing how someone can take a text and see stories that were meant to inspire and guide people in a time of scientific and sociological ignorance, and others see it as a tool to control via hate.
@Marfia: Actually, you err here. There ARE no mentions at all of “homosexuality” in the Bible. Anywhere. The only time you will see homosexuality mentioned is in English translations of the bible. The original Aramaic and Greek texts have absolutely nothing to say on the matter. The concept never appears. The English translations play fast and loose with the original text, selecting the wrong word when rendering the English text.
@MikeE: i like to refer to those as the “translated by bigots for simpletons” editions.
like how in Corinthians there’s a condemnation of “homosexuals” and men who are “effeminate”
hilarious. effeminate – a term that holds different meaning from era to era, culture to culture, person to person. a mistranslation from the greek which was a reference to young male prostitutes in temples.
and “homosexuals”? hilarious, too. you’re a homosexual whether you’re ever sexually active or not, whether you ever Come Out or not. you’re born a homosexual and you’ll die a homosexual, even if you choose to lead a heterosexually-active life.
She was shocked about it. But she said the most important words in the end , ” I still love you” . It must be hard to adjust for someone who has thought certain things about gay people their whole life and then realize gay people are just like anyone else , even someone you have loved your whole life , even your son.
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