gay clergy

WATCH LIVE: Listen to Lutheran Hate Speech As It Happens

ryanmillsluth

Is today the last stand for opponents to gay clergy in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? Delegations are debating the policy right now, and there’s a live stream! There’s even a countdown clock for how much time remaining each speaker has. Hopefully it’ll run out soon on Pastor Ryan Mills, who’s railing against homos in the church. Or maybe God will follow up yesterday’s tornado with locusts?

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37 Comments

  • Cinderfellow

    Funny how women who were denied ordination on scriptural basis and now are ordained deny the same to gays and lesbians…so the liberal theology works well for women but not for for gay folks…

  • Matt

    Is it me, or does Ryan Mill look like he belongs on the short bus?

  • DeAnimator

    @Matt: He looks like the product on inbreeding.

  • DeAnimator

    of*

  • Mike K

    Ryan Mill does look like inbreeding has taken it’s toll. I’d have to hear him say, “squeal like a pig”, to be sure though.

  • Jimmy

    @ Matt,

    He does seem to have a touch of the downs.

  • Mike

    I could have sworn about 30 minutes ago I read a headline on Queerty that said open gay relationships were voted for by the convention…now the story is gone.

  • dgz

    Northern Texas-Northern Louisiana Synod? color me shocked.

  • Josh

    Mike – it is a series of resolutions that are being voted upon. I think they are debating that particular resolution right now.

  • Josh

    I also must say that there are many supportive folks in the debate. I am hoping for passage.

  • jlb

    Why don’t we just get along! You can almost hear the words echo in the room. Be nice to one another, be kind, is that not what it is about? Listen to those crazies over there: saying, “we must trust the bible”. Trusts the bible, what interpretation are they reading? My (NSV) New Sodomy Version says that God created Adam and Steve and Adam and Eve at the same time. So, what is the problem? A news flash is coming in over the wires: An arrest warrant has been issued for Lot, nephew of Abraham, in regard to evidence beginning to surface about a major disaster in the valley of the five cities. No warrant has been issued for Abraham at this time, although his ties to God and his Angels are widely known. Lot is wanted for questioning in the matter of two men suspected of being terrorists and possibly: heavens “Angels”. Rumor has it that the people of Sodom wanted to know who those two men were; because they were suspected of carrying what we now think may have been, some new form of suitcase bomb. The attempt by the authorities to arrest these men for interrogation resulted in the crowd being blinded by what we think was a flash of light. Our sympathies are extended to the public and those brave officers who attempted to grab and detain those terrorists. Information is scarce, but reports are surfacing, reporting that there is nothing left in the valley and that all five cities are gone: and that the smoke going up is like the smoke of a furnace. We only hope that these reports are false. All the major denominations are calling for increased cooperation with the authorities in finding all these agents of this so called “God of Abraham”, and putting an end to these troublemakers once and for all. The Catholic Church, because of its long history of hunting down and killing dissident terrorists is taking the lead in offering moral and financial support. With the Catholic efforts to make peace with all religions, a church spokesman told us off the record, “the only thing we really lack is a charismatic leader who believes in peace enough to enforce it, and a powerful religious spokesman to work with him and support him.” Discussions are in the works for some form of visual support for the anti-terrorist movement; the use of a mark visible to everyone has been suggested. Our unnamed source suggests that a visible mark, perhaps a number or a name would be in line with our security efforts and could tie in very easily with our Global attempts to put down this God of Abraham cult. Other suggestions include a building, possibly a tower. The location for this “Tower of Hope” has not been decided, but the clear frontrunner seems to be the City of Babylon. Our congratulations and best wishes go out to the Administrators and people of that great city of Babylon. Good luck and go get those bad guys.

  • Andrew

    Pastor Ryan Mills doesn’t look like the sharpest tack in the Lutheran toolbox…

  • Josh

    The assembly just voted to allow gay pastors!!! YAY

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Jimmy:

    Downs? Yeah, so obviously he’s fair game for ridicule.

    What kind of better world are you interested in, anyway?

  • D-Sun

    Looks like the banjo kid from Deliverance is all grown up.

  • Mark

    Lutherans have APPROVED gay clergy and relationships.

  • cupcake

    get some manners, all of you. And may God have mercy on your souls. If it means so much to you, start your own religion, leave mine alone. This is America, ya know.

  • baumgrenze

    I urge anyone genuinely interested in what has been going on in Minneapolis this week to listen to the closing remarks of the presiding bishop of the ELCA, Mark S. Hanson. If you have the time, try listening to his remarks at the news conference that followed the day’s deliberations. There is a place for the GLBT community in the church and it is growing. I understand, it is not easy to listen to those who counsel active patience. Please consider the bishop’s plea to be in dialog with those who differ with us. It helps them to know who we really are and to learn to embrace us. And do not forget to thank those who have worked so hard against rejection in the past for what they have accomplished this day.

    baumgrenze, an evangelical PFLAG dad

  • Andrew

    Lutheran con-job. They “officially” still hate homosexuals – read the fine print.

  • Sam

    @DeAnimator: I agree with you that he looks like the product of inbreeding, but I think it’s more likely a mild form of Down syndrome. Either way Pastor Mills is a retard.

  • M Shane

    Don’t single the poor guy out; he has a fairly common Luthern demeanor and physical construction. In fact he’s “hot ” relative to standards.

    That’s why they all go to church & pray depirately for facelifts, and never worry about sexual outlaw behavior. There’s nothing to get very excited about.

  • Kathleen

    You all have an odd way of reveling in your victory for gay and lesbian clergy in accountable, committed, monogamous relationships to be ordained. You all have been railing against the face of the man that I am going to marry. A pastor who spent a year at the divinity school of the University of Chicago and then transferred to receive his master of divinity at Princeton Seminary. He also has a master in sacred theology. He’s probably the most thoughtful and intelligent person I know. At least his grammar and spelling exceed yours.

    Think before you speak. He spoke from his heart. There is no question that all people are welcome in our churches. God created the world and God loves the world. But, this issue of church policy also affects those who care deeply about the interpretation of scripture.

  • schlukitz

    But, this issue of church policy also affects those who care deeply about the interpretation of scripture.

    Aw, geez, Edith…will ya be a good dingbat and get me a beeuh, huh??

    Another sanctimonious, scripture-slinger slithers into the site.

  • M Shane

    Don’t get huffy Kathleen, not everyone is very impressed by those credentials. And frankly, while I’ve studied some real Philosopphy of Religion from the specialist at at MIT, I was saved any need to take the “word’ seriously.

    As to my typing or spellin and grammer, as you put it., I just don’t have time to waste…

    If no one had written the scriptures and started the frenzy of crazyness about human decency, which should be intuitive, we wouldn’t be in the manure heap we are trying to muck out of.

  • schlukitz

    @Kathleen:

    He spoke from his heart.

    Oh? Well, that does makes all the difference in the world, doesn’t it? Thank you for informing us that Pastor Ryan Mills last stance railing against homos in the Church, is a good thing. We were totally unaware.

    Definitely a good reason to “Think before you speak”.

    Oh, wait a minute. You believe that homosexuality is wrong, which is why you are marrying Pastor Ryan Mills, no doubt. Then, of course, it follows that defending one’s self from homophobic attacks would also be wrong in your “book”.

    I wish you both many years of homophobic bliss together. Just between you and me, that cute, little, piglet snout of his is perfectly adorable.

  • pubpastor

    I’m a voting member at the ELCA assembly who voted in favor of all the resolutions for blessing and ordaining LGBT people in committed relationships. I was was seated about 6 people away from Ryan on the assembly floor, though I don’t actually know him personally. I did not agree with pretty much anything of what he was saying from the floor, and there were several times when I was down right pissed off by him. In fact, I found it rather hard to talk to him. But I want to share a story that someone shared with me.

    One of the other voting members is a Lutheran man who has been married to his husband for 20 years and with their children have found a loving home (along with other LGBT families) in an ELCA congregation. He had spoken passionately several times on the assembly floor about his family, about the pain he has experienced, and the rejection of the church of which he is still a part. This man is a regular reader of this blog, and he spotted this photos and comments as soon as they were posted. While I, a straight white male, had trouble talking to Ryan, this man did not. When he saw this photo, he quickly saw himself in his brother’s shoes. He went up to Ryan and let him know that he was the “New Poster Boy for Hate Speech” on queerty.com. “Have you ever gotten hate mail before?” he asked Ryan. With a shocked look on his face Ryan shook his head no. “Well, I have. And let me tell you, it sucks. But I will walk with you, and help you through it.”

    The transforming power of Jesus speaks the truth when it is hard, and calls Christians to cross into unknown territory for the sake of love of the neighbor. One thing that I have learned from this experience is that we are all brothers and sisters, and all carry great pain. When we reach out from our suffering with love rather than hate–and can bear our brother or sister’s burden as if it were our own (even if that burden is homophobia) lives can be transformed, and old, old wounds begin to heal. It breaks my heart that we as the Church have failed to do this miserably (and in fact have done the opposite), especially for LGBT people, and that the conservative backlash is likely to make it even worse. But pay attention for quiet Christian voices (particularly Lutheran Christian voices) that are whispering words of reconcilation to one another.

    What the ELCA has voted to do, at risk of its own institutional life, is to create an organization in which LGBT pastors and pastors like Ryan can be in one family. If there is room enough for Ryan, there is room enough for me, and room enough for you too. And if you think its strange that Christians would talk this way it is, but its what it means to follow Jesus. I’m glad we’ve made steps to reclaim what that is really supposed to look like.

  • Phoenix (You'll Pry The BeDazzler From My Cold Limp Hand)

    Pastor Ryan Mills sounds and looks like a nasty little (closeted) creep who’s jealous of other people’s happiness. People who obsess about the ‘sins’ of others are spiteful and envious that nobody is interested in ‘sinning’ with them.

  • John Visser

    @Kathleen: Kathleen, you said, “There is no question that all people are welcome in our churches.” I seriously doubt that “all” people are welcome in Pastor Mills church. LGBT people may be allowed to enter the doors, but I’m certain they do not feel welcome inside. Intolerance begets intolerance – please don’t ask others to excuse your finance’s intolerance as you denounce the intolerance of others. Its just another example of “everything is fine as long as you live by MY standards mantra.” Oh and by the way, I’m so happy for you that you and Ryan are able to share in the glorious benefits and financial rewards of marriage as you seek to deny the same for others. How elitist and heterocentric of you.

  • Lura

    I’m an openly queer lutheran pastor, celebrating my denomination’s decision.

    But these comments embarrass and appall me. Thank God I know the queer community has loving, open-minded people in it as well as close-minded! (Just like every other community, fancy that!)

    Even if I didn’t know Ryan, I’d find your comments distasteful and bigoted. Insult someone by calling them “retarded”?!?! That’s about as stupid as using “gay” as an insult.

    Not to mention, pre-judging people you don’t know, and ridiculing your opponents, are small-minded actions that don’t serve any community well.

    It also just so happens that, although I disagree vehemently with Pastor Mills, I know him to be highly intelligent, thoughtful, and capable of listening to those he disagrees with. You should learn those traits from him.

  • schlukitz

    @Lura:

    But these comments embarrass and appall me.

    Oh really, now?

    Seems to me that an an openly queer person, regardless of whatever your affiliation is, should more embarrassed and appalled by Pastor Mills comments.

    How come he gets a free pass to discriminate, degrade and debase a minority group, but we get called when we call him

    What’s sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

    Are you beginning to get my drift yet?

  • Lura

    @schlukitz:

    Did you actually hear his speech? Although his speech supported ongoing discrimination, it did not, in fact, degrade or debase. It wasn’t hate speech. Ridiculous assumptions based on mis-matched headlines and pictures (there were speeches there I would have classified as degrading and debasing, Ryan’s wasn’t one of them) does, yes, embarrass and appall me.

    Neither this pastor, nor any others, get a “fair pass” for discrimination- I work to hold them accountable, challenge them, etc. That is significantly different than petty name-calling and childish insults.

    And besides, comments here insulted utterly innocent parties: those with Down’s Syndrome, and the Developmentally Disabled. Yes, that embarrasses and appalls me to.

  • schlukitz

    @Lura:

    You say tomato, and I say tomahto.

    You say potatoe, and I say potahto.

    From Thesaurus.com:

    Main Entry: discrimination
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: bias
    Synonyms:

    bigotry, favoritism, hatred, inequity, injustice, intolerance, partiality, prejudice, unfairness, wrong

    Nope. Nothing degrading or debasing about those synonyms, eh? In the same breath, and by your own admission, you condone the foregoing, while telling us how embarrassed and appalled you are by what you heard on this thread. And of course, as is usual, no mention is made as to who cast the first stone? Just take your verbal abuse, like good faggots and mind your manners. Hypocrite much, do you?

    You epitomize the old proverb.

    “We see what we want to see and we heard what we want to hear.”

    I, for one, am getting fed-up with people like you who defend the discriminators and then have the chutspah to tell the victims of what you see as “freedom of speech” I know him to be highly intelligent, thoughtful, and capable of listening to those he disagrees with. You should learn those traits from him.

    I, for one, have a hard time correlating the eschewing of discrimination, bigotry and prejudice with being highly intelligent, thoughtful and capable of listening to those he disagrees with. Those two concepts could not be more diametrically opposed, but apparently, you do not suffer from that problem.

    Closing thought for you to ponder. Suppose that Pastor Mills had addressed his discriminatory remarks at the black community instead of the LGBT community?

    Would you still be defending Pastor Mills?

  • schlukitz

    @schlukitz:

    P.S. Your self-righteous indignation is nothing more than a red herring, designed to derail the conversation. This thread isn’t about what WE said.

    It’s about what HE said. Deal with it…or move on.

    Either stick to the subject please or find another thread that might be more receptive to the anti-gay bias/discrimination that you obviously share with Pastor Mills.

    We’re simply not interested in hearing from people who cannot deal with the fact of us just being and need to make us wrong just for doing so.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @schlukitz:

    Actually I agree with Lura that no matter what this fellow said, using references to inbreeding and Downs Syndrome are out of line, and only make us look childish.

    Attack the issue, not the person.

    Also, as much as I want to see religious reform, churches are not the same as secular institutions. You and I may not like it, but they are guaranteed religious freedom – even the freedom to discriminate within their membership.

    I am all for them reforming, but that is something they have to do from within their membership.

    The real problem is when they try to carry that into the secular realm, as many of them often do.

  • schlukitz

    @strumpetwindsock:

    First of all, I was not the person who made those references. Nor, do I condone the making of such comments by either side. I believe that your reprimand, as well as Lura’s, should have been directed at the parties who made them.

    I also note that you completely overlooked the fact that Obama defended DOMA while the DoJ likened homosexual relationships with incest and pedophilia which also makes them look childish.

    I just find it kind of hypocritical for anyone to reprimand the victims of hate speech for picking up the stink-bombs and hurling them back from whence they came. After all, they did hurl them first.

    As the old proverb goes, all’s fair in love and war. The party being attacked should not have to fight with one hand tied behind their back.

  • PastorJ

    Wow! Talk about bigotry and hate speech. If some homophobe had said, “Pr. Mills looks like a fag,” you would have been all over that. But you seem to have no problem using Down Syndrome as a pejorative. Regardless of what your opinion is of Pr. Mills, you have resorted to the worst kind of puerile attack. You have debased yourselves by showing the same kind of nasty bigotry and mean-spirited hostility of which you excuse others who do not believe that homosexuality should be blessed by the Church. My question to you is this: are you the only ones who have suffered from prejudice? Do you not see that by using Down syndrome in a pejorative way, you are no better than those who bash gays. Such nastiness will not help your cause. Hate speech applies to all those who use words in a cruel and dehumanizing way. Shame on you.

  • schlukitz

    @PastorJ:

    Same old tired argument to cover the asses of those who espouse the bigotry, hatred and discrimination in the first place.

    So fast to get on the victims case for using a bad-choice of words to fight back, while never, ever, acknowledging, much less apologizing for the horrible lies and accusation spewed out by the attacker. Shame on you, PastorJ.

    Perhaps if you religious-types could stop flapping your gums for awhile and restrain yourselves from lying, name-calling and defiling fellow, taxpaying citizens while voting their rights away, perhaps we of the LGBT community would have nicer things to say about y’all?

    “Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.”

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