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Gay Man Rallies Against Barack Obama

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There’s no doubt that this year’s primary season tested Democrats’ patience. Not only did it drag on longer than a bad date, but the complex and often irksome superdelegate system – coupled with the Florida and Michigan debates – made this year’s election seem more like a drama than a political process. Now that the Democrats have their nominee, Barack Obama, a gay man by the name of Will Bower hopes to dismantle months of hard work:

[Bower] said he helped establish the grassroots group Party Unity, My Ass this month to connect voters who are angry that Obama is the Democratic presidential nominee.

“I feel that Barack Obama is an anti-democratically chosen candidate,” he said. “I think it’s the worst of the system that has put him at the top of the ticket.”

Among his chief complaints are that Obama’s campaign did not accept plans to allow new primary votes in Florida and Michigan after the states violated party rules and saw their primaries effectively nullified, and that the Democratic National Committee did not appropriately handle the delegate disputes in those states.

“The most important issue to me is the democratic principle itself,” he said on Fox News. “I see this season as having put forth an anti-democratically elected candidate. So for me, that’s the biggest issue of all. And if we go down a path, where, you know, the parties don’t uphold democratic principles, then who’s going to uphold democratic principles? So that’s my biggest issue of all and that transcends Republican or Democrat.”

You know what? We hate to break it to you, Bower, but the United States doesn’t uphold democratic principles. First of all, we don’t have a proportional system, which means that our system’s basically zero sum: you win or you lose, there’s no power sharing and, thus, millions of people get counted out. It sucks, yes, but that’s just the way it is. More importantly, however, is that the Democratic party, like all private organizations, has its own rules. Michigan and Florida’s respective parties broke those rules. Barack Obama was simply playing by them. If people are still pissed about the primary’s complicated process, they should just get out of the party, rather than trying to dismantle it.

If people really cared about the party, they would follow Hillary Clinton’s advice and back Barack Obama. It seems, however, that some are simply too selfish to understand the nuance of our nation’s political process.

By:           Andrew Belonksy
On:           Jun 20, 2008
Tagged: , , , , ,
  • 119 Comments
    • carl
      carl

      Those who voted for Ralph Nader are not allowed to comment on this post. If you do you are a hypocrite!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 8:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon is awesome.
      Brandon is awesome.

      Where the hell were all these people in 2000??? Do they not understand that popular vote basically means squat in this country? Sad but true.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 8:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Justin Bright
      Justin Bright

      I’m not sure how serious of an organization PUMA is. The website is down now and the most vocal members over the last few weeks can be nicely described as “borderline” personalities at best.

      Fox News and other conservative groups are trying their best to flame any fires anywhere and of course party disunity would definitely cause problems for the Democrats in the fall. However, I personally don’t think its going to be an issue on election day 2008 and will be seen a reason IF Obama loses the general (I don’t think he will).

      If Bowers & Co. really are interested in democracy, they would be better focused on organizing against reforming Democratic Party nominating rules or the abolition of the electoral college. Their group now is simply noise and will be tuned out once their 15 minutes in the spotlight is up.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 9:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      “…this year’s election seem more like a drama than a political process.”

      Ding-ding-ding.

      There has been (and still is) a lot of drama. And whining.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Misstickly
      Misstickly

      I don’t care about the dnc. I changed to independent weeks ago. I don’t owe them a da*n thing.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will Bower
      Will Bower

      Hey there, Justin.

      I’m the “Will Bower” mentioned in this piece.

      There are *many* PUMA sites up and running now, so when you say that one of ours is “down”, I’m not sure which you mean.

      The two that *I* am most directly involved with are JustSayNODEAL.com and PUMA08.com, and both are alive and well.

      I agree with you that, ideally, I have tacked the DNC directly. However, now realizing how closed their system is, this is the only way I feel I can do exactly that.

      And, yes, Brandon. Had I been a Republican in 2000, I would like to believe that I would have done exactly what I am doing now.

      And to the author of this piece: You are correct. Our system(s) of government do(es) *not* uphold democratic principles. This is what we are fighting.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Justin Bright
      Justin Bright

      Will: What’s the end game here for what you are trying to accomplish and how does being gay (if at all) play a role in what you hope to accomplish?

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • allstarecho
      allstarecho

      As a gay man, all I have to say is FUCK OBAMA. I can’t wait for November to get here so I can vote for McCain!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will Bower
      Will Bower

      Hello again, Justin.

      Different PUMAs have different strategies as to how we should approach this. This overriding factor is the we’re all in agreement that we do not want to see Barack Obama become the next president.

      My *personal* endgame is that I want to prevent the validation of all those failings in our system that have place Obama at the head of his party’s ticket. I believe that — if he wins the White House — all that is bad about the present system will be further solidified and entrenched.

      As for what happens *after* November, well, we’ll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Aside from the Centrists and Moderates you might be hearing about, the PUMA Movement is filled with Democrats, Independents, progressives, liberals, feminists, gay rights activists, etc. It is my hope that, after November comes and goes, that the PUMA Movement will move forward to fight the good fights if and where they need to be fought, regardless of the candidates and/or parties involved.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will Bower
      Will Bower

      Oh, and as for my being gay, Justin… I hadn’t expected it to be a factor. Now that it has become one, well, we’ll have to wait and see. :)

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Why wait ’til November when you can vote for Johnny Mac?

      You could just buy a dildo + fuck yourself now.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will Bower
      Will Bower

      I guess I don’t understand how it is that John McCain could be John Kerry’s first choice for Veep in 2004, but now, in 2008, he (McCain) has become our archenemy.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 11:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • robinev
      robinev

      I can understand the frustration at DNC rules after they came into a spotlight in this primary season, but I don’t see how anyone can move from “The Democratic Party rules are unfair” to “I’m voting for McCain.”

      The rules used for GOP primaries are far more anti-democratic than those used for the Democratic primaries. Many of the GOP primaries are “winner take all” — a fact that allowed McCain to win their nomination with relative ease, even though so many Republicans were voting for someone else.

      That’s far less democratic than the Democrats’ rules that slice and dice the primary votes in some sort of “proportional” system (but with oddly misshapen measuring cups to determine the proportions).

      And if it’s the Florida vote that bothers PUMA folks, then — again — that’s a reason to vote against McCain since it was Florida Republicans who pushed the Democrats there into the early and unauthorized primary. (Dems there should have done more to avoid or fix the problem, but still, a big share of the blame belongs to FL GOP.)

      Jun 20, 2008 at 11:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RPCV
      RPCV

      Will: As a faggot who’s never voted Democratic in 32 years of voting (and never missing an election cycle) WELCOME to the GOP!! There’s more of us over here than the Democrats, and populace in general including other faggots, suspect………

      Jun 20, 2008 at 11:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will Bower
      Will Bower

      Robinev: I simply must default to what I said earlier… that, had I been a Republican in 2000, I would like to believe that I would have done then what I am doing now.

      RPCV: I thank you for that warm welcome. :) However, that said, I don’t have any plans on becoming a Republican anytime soon. :)

      Jun 20, 2008 at 11:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Justin Bright
      Justin Bright

      Will:

      Thanks for you response. Let me start by saying I am a former Hillary supporter. And I was abused here and by elsewhere for continuing to support her up until she dropped out, so I understand some of the feelings you have and other PUMAs. However, I will be voting Obama because I think the larger issue of electing a Democrat is more important than any misgivings I have about the campaign, the media’s treatment of Hillary, and how the Democratic Party administration failed to manage the Michigan and Florida Primaries fairly.

      Separately, I raise the question about being gay because as has been frequently commented her in this thread and other political threads there is sometimes a violent reaction to even considering not voting for the more pro-gay Democratic Party (In contrast to the Republicans). And by espousing any interest in John McCain, some would suggest it is a betrayal of the gay community at large and an indication of self-hate. How do you respond to these charges?

      Jun 20, 2008 at 11:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RPCV
      RPCV

      Will: Thanks for acknowledging my post. You wrote: “However, that said, I don’t have any plans on becoming a Republican anytime soon.”

      I sense that you’re not closing the door entirely to crossing the street. I encourage you to declare yourself as a GOP’er. I know, it’s hard to do that as a gay person, but I’ve lived all my life as a GOP’er and GAY and I’ve not suffered emotionally, financially, or socially. We have a lot to offer: funding the strongest national defense possible, limited government (even though I’m a part of the Federal bureaucracy with a high paying job overlooking Constitution Avenue in DC!!), reducing entitlement programs (i.e., having everyone earn their way in society…anathema to many who grown accustomed to relying on handouts), supporting the expansion of big business with limited taxing enabling them to hire, hire, and hire away, and a multitude of other very attractive foundation principles. It’s easy to convert; and, you may feel as if a burden has been lifted….

      Jun 20, 2008 at 11:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RPCV
      RPCV

      Will: BTW, I’m on a staycation today. I’m not abusing government property or wasting tax dollars in writing on Queerty. I’m about to go sunbathe, but the clouds are blocking the rays. Just didn’t want you, or others, to think I’m scribbling from my plush office……

      Jun 20, 2008 at 11:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      Will: I’m with you about the disenfranchise of FL and MI but I would also like to see more emphasis given on Obamas real hypocritical stance on marriage equality, his political friendships with avowed homophobes including Black Caucus blocking and keeping as many gay delegates out as possible from any representation .

      by the way just went to the website and looks fine to me : http://blog.pumapac.org/

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • flightoftheseabird
      flightoftheseabird

      Once again Will is distorting the facts on the ground, like he always does. McCain went to Kerry and asked to be his VP, not the other way around. McCain was not Kerry’s first choice.

      Queerty and everyone everyone else, please stop giving this douche bag press time.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will Bower
      Will Bower

      Bird. Distorting? I think you’ll find a majority of people will tell you it happened as I have suggested. That it was Kerry who extended the offer to McCain. If am wrong, it is not in an attempt to distort anything, but, rather, I am wrong in my understanding of events.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      More and more gays I speak with say they are either not voting at all or voting for McCain in retaliation for Obama’s stance on gay marriage. I am one. I will not compromise a basic human right just so that fucking war in Iraq will end. I could care less what happens in that shit hole part of the world. Show the Democrats
      that they can stand oppress a group of people and win. I hear people talk about Democracy being a compromise but when does that end? I hope the Republicans beat the shit out of him and I am here to help that happen!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bob
      Bob

      Ahhh, more Queerty hate for those who refuse to kneel and worship at the Obama altar. Seriously, does his campaign pay you guys?

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      I’m not on any candidate’s payroll, but I do find the reasoning of a lot of gays voting for McCain as opposed to Obama utterly ridiculous. “I don’t like that he supports civil unions instead of full gay marriage. So, I’ll vote for a candidate who supports neither.”

      Bloody brilliant.

      Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. By all means, though, prove your point come November. I hope you can live with the likely outcome of those actions if Gramps wins.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      I can’t possibly believe anyone who is gay would vote for McCain a REPUBLICAN, whom if they had their way, would illegalize being openly gay PERIOD. BARACK OBAMA ALL THE WAY. I love my community and have the highest hope that they will be onboard the Obama express because he’s our only hope to a better equal future. DEMOCRATS are the only thing thats standing between the republican anti-gay HATRED and ME/YOU! Please people, get well informed and if you still dont like Obama then don’t vote but dont put noose to your OWN necks!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      Do you really think that you are going to ever see civil unions?
      Get real, its just talk to get your vote. Don’t be like a jew in Germany and think the U.S. is ever going to do anything for you.
      Get Out and watch the evil empire fall, I will tell you that the rest of the world is anxiously awaiting its demise.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      Michael stop talking like if you know ANYTHING! Watch all you want; You’ll eat your heart out! how does this in anyway relate to the US downfall? All i have to say is to be carefull what you wish for, cuz i fear the day the US falls, half of the world is going along with it!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      Well everybody its over anyway, The FISA bill was just passed in
      the house and the United States is now just a short time away of becoming a truly fascist country. Why be concerned with marriage
      when you can be spied upon legally and have no recourse? America is a shit hole and just continues to digress.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      the FISA bill…. ensure that the Nation’s chief law enforcement and intelligence officials work together in collecting foreign intelligence in accordance with the law. It requires the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court) to review and approve, or order modifications to, the procedures required by the Act and to ensure that those procedures are consistent with the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. And it requires that information about the implementation of these new procedures be reported to Congress, to ensure that Congress can fulfill its oversight role.

      Just go to sleep if you dont have anything valid to say.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      Lawrence, you truly suffer from the American ego which is why it is the most hated country on earth. You have no idea what I know
      and your rebuttal is one of a classic ignorance that the U.S. is so
      famous for.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      They did spy upon Americans legally but that was after 9/11. That permission was not extended and thats why they passed this FISA bill until 2012….. let me say that again 2012. The US is constantly changing and not many laws are extended. Doesnt sound Fascist to me.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bob
      Bob

      Fredo — I don’t think McCain is the answer either, so for the first time in a presidential election I’m just not voting. I’m sorry, but for a Democrat who insists words matter, I need to take him at his word that he supports a separate but equal approach to my civil rights. He’s not getting my vote as a result.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      How can we not be hated when we are the top of the cream when it comes to nations as a whole. Other countries hatred has not interfered in my daily life so I truly dont care about what any other country believes.

      PS. Thats not the only thing the US is known for. How about ‘the GREATEST nation in the world’. Thats why EVERY country in the world has people living in the US

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      BOB, I see your point of view but wouldnt you rather argue that marriage is more equal than civil unions with the DEMOCRATS than having to argue that being gay is not an option with the REPUBLICANS

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      Lawrence, you need to get out of the trailer park. The only people who think America is the greatest nation on earth are country music fans from Alabama and white trash southern Baptists. And you obviously do care what the rest of the world thinks or you would not be taking the time to defend it.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      Do you see my point of view….. its like going backwards with the REPUBLICANS. Atleast with the democrats, its a half-step forward that we could somehow push to a full-step.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      I am a New Yorker born in New York born to Dominican IMMIGRANTS. I am very happy for the oppotunities this country has given me AND my ENTIRE family. Im spending time defending this country from YOUR hate talk that happened to reach my ears not becuase i look for people to argue with. And your WRONG, country people arent the only people who believe the US is the greatest nation in the world. Ask the MILLIONS of people who migrate to this nation YEARLY trying to enter this country illegally because all the visas are taken up SOO quickly.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      Other countries inability to serve their people has made this country what it is today. I do think the federal government isnt working and thats why im counting on Obama to fix it. Apart from that my state has served me and mine just fine.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • marc
      marc

      Lawrence I am American and after reading your posts about America being the “cream of the crop” I now understand why the rest of the world is over us. It shows what a lack of humility we suffer from, how grandiose we are and why we would put a man like dubyah in office twice. The need to be superior is grandiose stems from low self worth, not high self worth. The U.S. never has a problem at pointing its finger at the sins of others but when it comes to its own it just becomes arrogant and defensive, not a good place to learn and grow from. But then I suppose that stems from our roots in Christianity.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      Exactly, NOW you’ve got it. That ‘IS’ why some hate on the US and the rest of the hate I blame on the federal government which deals with our foreign policy (not done by individual states). I havent blame any other country for anything we’ve done.

      PS. Im Atheist (Not Christian at ALL)

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bob
      Bob

      No, Lawrence, I’m tired of voting for the Democrats because they’re not as bad as the Republicans. Especially this year, when the Democratic candidate keeps harping on change and new ideas and how words matter, but for us it’s more of the same — I want your vote, but I don’t fully support your rights or your community. I’m sick of voting for the Democrat just because the Republican is worse. It perpetuates the Democrats’ treatment of us. If they know we’ll support them simply because their opponents hate us, then they’ll never evolve to fully support our community. So I’m withholding my vote. I hope a lot of other folks do, too. Yes, it will be hell on earth with that fossil in the White House. But it might make the Democrats FINALLY start to realize they can’t expect our support without giving us some in return …

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RPCV
      RPCV

      LawrenceNY: You wrote: “Im Atheist (Not Christian at ALL).” Sad to hear that, and I pity you.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 2:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      For some reason I have a feeling that had this not been my first election, I would be feeling exactly like you. But going through my teens with Bush-cheney, I cannot possibly allow myself to continue to grow up with those *******. But you DO make a LOT of sense. SO much that im scared you might actually influence many to follow your steps. This is just another Dilema in our society; theres just soo much to factor in.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      Pity…. wow sounds very accepting and non-judgmental like your religion preaches. Hope you learn to accept the fact that other people have brains and can come to a conclusion of their own. Dont worry for me im just fine, worry about your acceptance into heaven.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • marc
      marc

      Thank you Bob. I have heard it said over and over is that the only real power we have is with our vote. I hear from other gays that compromise is part of democracy, but where do we draw the line? I wonder if in the 1960’s blacks would have been offered equal rights in some areas and not in others how that would have flown? Oh, you can now work clerical positions and not be discriminated against but we are still going to make it okay to discriminate against you in positions higher than that. Or we will make it okay for you to live traditionally white, middle class neighborhoods but you will not be protected should you wish to move into upper class neighborhoods. I am in my late 40’s now and I am sick of being shown that ultimately I am a second class citizen and that is what the Democrats are still saying. I wish every gay person would write the Democrats and let them know that if this is there stance then they will have to rely on getting there votes elsewhere.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      I think it’s a real stretch to suggest that Obama is offering no support, whatsoever. Such is not the case. Certainly more support than Johnny Mac.

      He’s getting my vote, regardless of the nay-sayers. To each his own, though.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blackiemiko
      blackiemiko

      I cannot understand how you would all chose McCain over someone that has an equally 95% voting history the same as Hillary’s. Hillary has now publicly endorsed Obama. Hillary has the same position on gay marriage as Obama. We need to stop demonizing everyone and realize that up to 6 Supreme Court Justices could be appointed this term. The Republicans do everything they can to strip away individual rights, start wars, keep the rich wealthy, etc that we cannot afford to not elect a Democrat. This is the most important Election of our lifetime. Get over your biterness and move on. I felt the same way about Hillary, I didn’t care for her as a candidate but I would have united behind the Democrat. There is no place for people like you all on here causing fighting like this. If you really don’t care, then just keep your mouth shut.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jamie
      Jamie

      First of all, we don’t have a proportional system, which means that our system’s basically zero sum: you win or you lose, there’s no power sharing and, thus, millions of people get counted out.

      Er, big surprise, but that’s not an accurate statement guys. If the democratic nomination process actually was zero sum (like the republican nomination process), Hillary would be the nominee months ago, because she would’ve obtained all of the delegates for the big states.

      I wanted Biden, then settled for Hillary. Now I’m forced to vote for Obama solely, solely because if a Republican nominates the next supreme court justice then we’re all well and truly fucked.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mike
      mike

      The ultimate fuck you would be to not vote Democrat. No more crumbs for me either and I am spreading the word. Give me liberty or give me death. Like our founding fathers I will not compromise,
      not anymore.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mike
      mike

      blackiemiko, telling people to keep there mouth shut sounds quite Republican to me. Guess what? I don’t care about the wars in the middle east cause those people kill gay people anyway. I am also
      wealthy, so if I don’t get equal rights then I say keep my taxes low. The Democrats offer me nothing and I will tell whoever I want to tell. And if the rights of others are stripped away then why do I care? They obviously did not care about mine. There is a Kabbalistic theory that says that when things are shattered a new creation can rise from the ashes. Well maybe thats what needs to happen. America needs to be completely recreated and
      aiding the shattering will bring it on sooner than later. A complete shattering.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      Wow!! 6 supreme court justices could be appointed by the next president. Thats more than enought to have a BIG impact on decisions made by the US SUPREME COURT. More reasons to vote democratic. We just have to make sure we dont want civil unions and protest if thats what they are trying to give us. I have a feeling Obama will change his position in our favor. or atleast I hope so. He doesnt look like the typical politician and I hope thats the case. Plus democrats in the supreme court will most likely come to the same conclusion that the california supreme court came up with.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • marc
      marc

      · blackiemiko, not much on freedom of speech are you unless its your own now are you. Your not a whole lot different than those you say you are against. Same bullshit, just a different colour. Who are you to decide that “There is no place for people like you all on here causing fighting like this. If you really don’t care, then just keep your mouth shut.” Maybe we just make you king and let you decide how everyone should think, feel and believe.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY
      LawrenceNY

      Wow mike, your right muslims are gay-haters, oppresing people is a republican trait, and America definitely needs to be recreated but im not sure that republicans would be the best option for the task.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      I think Obama’s stance on gay marriage is what is (unfortunately) necessary to help him get elected. Sure, I’d love it if he could come out in favor of gay marriage + still get elected, but he doesn’t do us any good if he rah-rahs + sis-boom-bahs for gay marriage all the way to a loss in November.

      Yes, this election is about the better choice (or lesser of two evils, if you will). It always is. I’m happy giving my vote to the candidate who at least offers some kind of progress, as opposed to more of the same (or worse than that) which we have now. I think it’s highly likely that Obama’s stance on gay rights would shift in our favor once elected, which is much more than I could say for Johnny Appleseed.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      Someone on here said that not voting for Obama would be a sign of bitterness. What I see is that for the first time in ages gay people are standing up and saying enough, is enough, and thats not bitterness. It sorta reminds me of the film the “Color Purple” after years of oppression and abuse the main character finally stands up and says if this is the way you are going to treat me then I am gone. Don’t count on Obama changing his stance on gay marriage after he is elected, its just a fantasy to think he would.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon is awesome.
      Brandon is awesome.

      Question to all you who won’t vote Obama because of his views on Gay Marriage. If Hillary was the Nominee, would you vote for her EVEN THOUGH she has the same views? Or would you vote for McCain?

      Jun 20, 2008 at 3:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      I would not have voted for her either. In fact I did not vote in the primaries because of both of their stances on gay marriage. This is no longer an Obama over Hillary issue, she is gone.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 4:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • right here
      right here

      I got such a kick out of RPCV’s line about pitying someone who is not christian. This is from the most vile, unchristian, self centered person around (stereotypical republican, I know, I know). Keep the laughs coming RPCV, you’re a riot!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 6:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • amvanman
      amvanman

      Calling people “bitter” because they are fed up is just a manipulative putdown by someone who must resort to shaming
      people because their argument is hitting the wall. Because a person chooses not to vote for Obama, because he constantly invalidates their rights hardly warrants calling someone “bitter”.
      The real “bitterness” lies in the fact that their is a third way to play this game and that is not to vote for either and that pissess Obamites off. Also, the theory of getting out of the way and allowing everything to be run into the ground should Republicains keep hold of the White House is another strategy. America is drunk and sometimes you just have to allow a drunk to reap his own consequences before he will choose to sober up.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 6:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RPCV
      RPCV

      Right Here: You stupid ass. I pity LawrenceNY because he hasn’t religion. I don’t care whether the religion is buddist, hindu, confusianism, zoroastrian, OR christianity. In my view, everyone needs to believe in some higher being.

      Your analytical are apparently in the gutter….

      Jun 20, 2008 at 7:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ggreen
      ggreen

      Politicians don’t gain any political power by resolving social issues or passing laws that bring about real change or justice or equality. Politicians live to play with and consolidate power for their patrons and cash contributors. Anyone thinking Obama or anyone else is out for any real “change” is mistaken. Those that have will have more and those with out shall suffer. Your life, your goals and dreams are like a wonderful Rubiks cube to politicos. They love to twist and twist and twist some more with out ever going anywhere. A Politician’s goal is to play both ends against the middle. Who has won the abortion war? Politicians, they get huge amounts from both sides so it behooves them to keep the Roe v. Wade debate alive and both sides fired up so they give and give and give. Screw those “unborn babies” fools pass the cash!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 8:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark

      I gotta jump on that one RPCV. I’m a happy, well-adjusted intelligent guy who’s decidely an atheist. I treat other people decently, I don’t go out of my way to be an asshole to anyone and I don’t believe in god(s).

      And, not voting Obama, either. Viva the third way! I agree completely about sending a message to the Dems who believe we have no choice but to vote for them while they mouth sympathies for us and vote in lockstep with George Bush in Congress (did it again today with more war funding, and a brand new fuck-you domestic spying authorization.)Nancy Pelosi is a lying skag, and Harry Reid is a stall door away from Larry Craig.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 8:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • amvanman
      amvanman

      Mark, preach brother preach, cause the truth needs to be told!
      And to rpcv, Buddhist don’t believe in a higher being so stop including them in with the nut cases who do.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 9:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dan
      Dan

      Bottom lining it…

      First off – those people screaming that they were robbed and Hillary was the rightful winner need to calm down. I’m not saying you should vote for Obama, but you need to take a step back. Partly by her design, Hillary ran a very emotionally charged campaign. It’s not surprising some people aren’t taking her defeat graciously. So here’s the thing – next time you’re compelled to read all these nasty comments, don’t. Just think about something else. Take a mental holiday from the whole political thing. Maybe go somewhere nice and sunny and forget all about this political garbage. I hear that’s what Hillary’s doing for the next month. Always thought she was a smart gal.

      Then, after this month long political vacay, if you still feel Obama is absolutely unqualified to be president, you can vote for somebody else and not be a complete douchebag. While I may not share your view, I can respect the fact that not everybody thinks the same way I do. C’est la vie. I would ask, however, that you not vote for McCain. Jesus Christ in a Chicken Basket – he represents the opposite of everything Hillary did! I cannot fathom how somebody would make the logical leap from pulling for Hillary to voting for McCain.

      Unless, of course, said vote was motivated purely out of spite. You want the “bad guy” to lose, no matter what the cost. And voting for McCain would, of course, be the most effective way of indulging that spite. But guess what – that’s a pretty fucking irresponsible thing to do. Look around you – our country’s in quite a state. Like, ‘end of empire’ state. And if you look at all the presidential candidates, guess who’s record most closely resembles Dubya’s? A puzzler, I know.

      But you’ve got a month to think about it.

      Jun 20, 2008 at 9:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jim Pickett
      Jim Pickett

      Viva President O!

      Jun 20, 2008 at 10:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • right here
      right here

      rpcv…what’s the point of believing in a higher being if it doesn’t make you a better person? Clearly, it hasn’t worked for you or many, many other “religious” people who talk out of both sides of their face. Of course, you only talk out of your foul ass.

      Jun 21, 2008 at 1:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”

      “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

      “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be
      demanded by the oppressed.”

      “The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood”

      These are the wise words of Dr, Martin Luther King. They inspire me to not I sell nor compromise my soul anymore. I will not vote for one oppressor just because the chains he binds me
      with are a bit more comfortable than those of the other oppressor. To those of you who are trying to manipulate and shame people for choosing to take a solid stand for once in their lives by refusing to take crumbs from the masters table I tell you
      to read and re-read the second quote of Dr. Kings.

      Jun 21, 2008 at 3:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • expatriate
      expatriate

      Obama just voiced his support of the Republicans FISA bill that grants immunity to the lawbreaking telecoms and the president for ILLEGIALLY SPYING on Americans. FISA also goes further and will now give the President powers to continue to legally spy on Americans. You guys really need to get out more and educate yourself on what is happening in this country. Hell, the Republicans were all laughing today because the Democrats, including Pelosi and Obama, have given them more in the FISA bill than they even asked for.

      If you dare to educate yourself on the real truth, may I suggest that you check out Glen Greenwald over at Salon. There are others of course, but since he is a former constitutional attorney, just like Obama, I think the views are very relevent to the Obama question.

      As far as Obama and Gay Marriage, well, I have said it many times but I will say it again. He does not support me and my GLBT family, so why should I support him????

      Obama is now pandering to the right wing in the Democratic AND Republican party as evidenced by his continued shouting of “Marriage is between one man and one women” crap. In fact, this is the same line that GB has been using for his entire presidency. Then today, to put icing on the cake, he publically comes out in favor of FISA as I mentioned above. He is just not someone I can stomach voting for.

      Full disclosure: I was not a Clinton or McCain supporter either because they all shared the same viewpoint on gay marriage. I cannot understand why any self respecting GLBT person would vote for such guy. It is beyond me. None of the viewpoints shared here in support of Obama are convincing. The best argument put forth here goes something like this: vote for crap, not more crap. I am proud to vote for crap, because he is not as crappy as the other choice. I love crap, and if you don’t love crap just shut up.

      Boy, we have some real thinkers on here.

      Jun 21, 2008 at 3:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • marcus
      marcus

      hey fredo777- I am an expatriate living in Canada with my HUSBAND and if he is not my HUSBAND in the U.S.A. then let gramps have the place because there are places where a gay person can be equal to everyone else.

      Jun 21, 2008 at 4:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mds
      mds

      Obama is pandering to the right, plain and simple. And do you think that is going to stop once he is in office? Of course not. Get real, nobody is going to fight for us to have civil unions or marriage once this election is over. Its just muck they have to wade through till November. He voted for FISA, he is against gay marriage, he had an ex-gay as campaign entertainment. Please, wake up and smell the coffee people. I do find the comments of Dr. King interesting. Especially the one about Freedom not voluntarily given but must be demanded. Are we demanding our rights or are we just sitting back and waiting for them to throw us scraps? I cannot believe how people on here are criticizing those who are “demanding” their freedom instead of just accepting “scraps”. Maybe out of this outrage will rise a leader in our community, one that speaks the deepest truths, one that has courage and conviction, one who has the spirit of
      Gandhi, Jesus, Dr. King. We need someone whose leadership empowers us and reflects back to us who we truly are. A leader who has seen the mountain top and can lead us there. Too many of us have been beaten down, told we are worthless, evil and deserve little and its time that we know who we truly are. For when we do nothing will be able to stop us.

      Jun 21, 2008 at 8:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hal
      hal

      Oh please. This is all horseshit pot stirring trying to make it seem like all these people are jumping ship. Most of the voices againt Obama were never voting for him in the first place. In other words, they are just repubs trying to create a sense of movement via the internet, the same one McCain finds so perplexing. Surrogates for McCain! Cause he doesn’t know his Google from a hole in the wall.

      I love how the ultimate democratic inspiration hit Bowers after Hillary lost. In other words, “my candidate didn’t win so I’m taking my toys and going home!” Big deal. There will be no movement after November because this current so called movement is sham being propagated by Republicans and childish homo’s who cream their pants every time Hilary’s name is said. Vote McCain or Nader. Vote against your best interests, but stop trying to cloak yourselves in righteous indignation. It’s as transparent as Hillary’s tears in New Hampshire.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 4:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will Bower
      Will Bower

      Hal.

      I was passionately supportive of Wesley Clark in 2004, and I strongly disliked John Kerry at the beginning of the primary season that year.

      However, when all was said and done, there was nothing underhanded or antidemocratic in Kerry’s victory, so I was more than willing to support him.

      Had Obama won as Kerry did in 2004, I’m quite certain that I would be supporting him now. However, this isn’t the case.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 11:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mds
      mds

      Hal, you assume incorrectly. There is a growing movement to withhold voting for Obama by Gay Democrats. And if you consider it pot stirring then obviously the pot needs to be stirred. It has been almost 40 years since Stonewall and on the federal level we have made almost no real progress in gaining civil rights and it is time another approach be taken. The slaves were not freed by the goodness of the southern states hearts, that freedom had to be fought for. The civil rights movement of the 50’s and 60’s was not won on a silver platter. GLBT’s are seen as an impotent, powerless group of people and many are tired of it. You can put on your Banana Republic jacket and pants and attend your HRC martini mixers and maybe in another 40 years we will see some benefit but for me and those like me we are putting on our coveralls because there is real work to be done.

      “These are dangerous days
      To say what you feel is to dig your own grave
      “Remember what I told you
      If you were of the world they would love you”

      Jun 22, 2008 at 11:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Feh.

      I’m not withholding my vote — and would be damned if I’d vote Johnny Mac into office — to prove a point or chastise the Dem. party. The very notion smacks of being counter-productive (+ counter-intuitive). Instead of voting for the more progressive candidate + making him accountable once elected, I will (directly or indirectly) help elect the more conservative one whom I know isn’t looking out for my interests. Smart approach. Where do we go from there in Nov. once Johnny is elected?

      Stand outside of the White House wearing our “Told Ya So!” t-shirts w/ the “no” symbol over a pink donkey + razzing the news cameras?

      Seriously, though, if that’s the plan, I’m designing those tees + selling them on eBay for 30 bucks. E-mail me for details.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 1:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      No. 74: Yeah, he’s “looking out” for our “interests” through second class citizenship. Perhaps you meant your other interest. Everyone knows why you are voting for him and it has nothing to do with GLBT rights.

      “Because I will never forget that the only reason that I’m standing here today is because somebody, somewhere stood up for me when it was risky. Stood up when it was hard. Stood up when it wasn’t popular. And because that somebody stood up, a few more stood up. And then a few thousand stood up. And then a few million stood up. And standing up, with courage and clear purpose, they somehow managed to change the world.”- Barack Hussein Obama, Nov 30 2007

      Looks like he forgot or perhaps he never meant it in the first place.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Oh, I sincerely, sincerely hope that the “why” you suggest I’m voting for Obama is solely because he’s black.

      That would be so deliciously ironic coming from the likes of you.

      And, fyi, “Black” isn’t a single voting issue, just as “Gay” isn’t a single voting issue. I don’t see why voting Obama would serve any “other interest” (i.e. being black). It’s not like he’s going to get elected + start issuing reparations checks to all of black america.

      You, I’m afraid, are a nutter.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 3:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mds
      mds

      777, Hold him accountable for what or to what? I think he has made his choices of who he will be accountable to and it is not we gay people. This is not about merely “proving a point” this is about taking ones power back, standing up for oneself. The greatest change takes place when it becomes to painful to stay where you are, maybe its not painful enough for America yet to stop its oppressive ways and maybe it’s not to painful yet for gays like yourself, or maybe you have accepted that you just are not worth equally as much straight people and not worth fighting for.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      MDS, I’m still not buying it.

      Again, what comes after we help MacDaddy get into office? We sit around + gloat? Illustrate just how we’ve “stuck it to the establishment” + hope future dems will run on a platform supporting gay marriage?

      It seems pretty shaky if you ask me.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      Unless, w’all rable rousers had are ready to pick up guns and take to the streets thats what you would be better doning than giving the election over to the rebublicans like boobs.

      I don’t qiuite get that people act like babies with poopie diapers when something isn’t to their liking.

      Either do things MY way or or there is no way at all except for me to piss all over.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 3:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      Ditto Hal

      Jun 22, 2008 at 3:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mds
      mds

      We just allow, we allow the Democrats to start seeing us as a real force to be reckoned with, one that will not sell its soul and be treated like a step child. As far as everything else goes, America is still drunk, and like all drunks sometimes you just have to get off the road and let it crash before it awakens. Obama has no real answers to anything and is not going to be that much different. The FISA bill proves that and there are laundry lists of his lies that have been posted numerous times by Queerty readers the past few months. Bill Clinton sold us out and we got nothing from those years he was in office, do you really think we will get anything from Obama? We deserve complete equal rights and protection just as any other minority that is prone to being discriminated against. And if we don’t get
      what we deserve there are places we can go where we can. We would not be the first group of oppressed people to flee their “motherland”.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • buster
      buster

      I have been reading this argument and I will say that I admire the fact that at least someone(s) out their are willing to rise up and try something differently after all isn’t insanity doing the same thing, the same way and expecting different results.? My partner told me that the opposite extreme is usually no different than the extreme that you are opposing. Marriage is still going to be between a man and a woman. Also it is interesting how those who are opposing this view point of just not giving their vote to Obama are throwing out insults and slurs, like they are unpatriotic or something. Reminds me of how people treated those who opposed the Iraq war. My partner also thinks Obama will win and that the United States was going to learn a lesson that it never thought it never expected, that the opposite was the same. So follow your heart and your convictions and we will just see how all the cards fall.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 3:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • while my nails are drying
      while my nails are drying

      Now what is it exactly that we expect Obama is going to do for us?
      Oh thats right, he wants to move us from the fields to the big house or says he will if we just keep picking his cotton for now.
      Yeah, right, I am like, so sure.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 4:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sean
      sean

      If Obama had of said “based upon my personal beliefs I believe marriage is between one man and one woman” and followed it with
      something like “as a constitutional attorney who is capable of separating my personal, religious beliefs and as president of the United States am obligated to uphold that seperation, then I would vote for him. But as a constitutional attorney who is willing to uphold bigotry as well as a racial minority I cannot wrap my head around supporting him. I don’t believe his thinking is all that different than those he opposes. Just a different color of the same bullshit.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 4:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      No. 78: Come on you really expect people to believe that his race is not a huge booster in more ways than one and single voting issue for African Americans like you, when even Armstrong Wiliams has said that he is considering(he’s really just trying to keep his conservative credentials clean by using the word considering) voting for him in November.

      Of course, your not buying anything because:

      1- Freedom and Equality under the law is not up for sale.
      2- You have made your choice(bought, to use your own words) from the first moment you saw him.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 4:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sean
      sean

      I just asked a straight friend of mine if they would be willing to not vote for Obama based upon his statement about gay marriage. They responded with that they would not make that decision based upon one single issue.

      I asked then what if he made a statement that he believed that marriage was okay as long it was between people of same race,
      or same religion and she said of course she would not vote for them.

      This is where we are at as gay people. We are at the bottom of the barrel as humans. I found it amazing that my friend, who is quite liberal, would find certain forms of discrimination unacceptable enough to not vote for someone but see gay marriage as not unacceptable enough. We are not equal even in
      peoples sub conscious. Are we just perpetuating that by accepting Obamas stance? How do we make people see us differently, or is it because we ourselves don’t believe we are equal? I have not decided yet if Obama is getting my vote, as one person put it, they would hold there nose while pulling the lever, I will have to see if I will be able to do that.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      Sean: No one has put it better than you so far those responses you got from your hetero friend captures exactly where we are at.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael [Different person #1 using similar name]

      I often wonder if it is really time for us to receive the right to marry. I say this because of the statement about what we believe about ourselves. I have heard it said that if you do not love yourself then nobody else will and other similar statements. I am now over 40 and one thing that has always saddened me is how I see gays treat each other. If a guy is to effeminate he’s fair game for bashing. Guys saying nasty things about other guys appearances. Seeing each other as just sex objects and not as human beings who might have feelings. What are we doing for our younger gay brothers and sisters who are often leaving homes where they were taught either directly or indirectly that who they are is unacceptable. Since turning 40 I look at younger gays differently. Sure, when they are hot they are hot, but I also look at their faces, I see the pain, I see the amount of energy it takes to hold their heads up or the arrogance and hyper attention paid to their appearance masking their anger, sadness and emptiness. Maybe we still have work to do on ourselves before we can expect the world to stand with us.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 5:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      “While my nails are drying”, I don’t recall anyone being forced to pick cotton or “work the fields” for being gay.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 5:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Churchill, stop addressing me. You (+ your skewed perspective) are foolish.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      Civil rights are not = to GLBT rights to you(and your other community), we get it No. 90.

      michael: As a young man myself I understand what your saying but I disagree with your conclusion. While living your life helping those kids and showing them how to be more compassionate towards each other is important and what we should all strive to do, part of showing them to have love for themselves is making sure that under the government in which they live they are no different from their heterosexual counterparts. What good is it for someone to be taught to love him/her self if once they have to confront the world the law always reminds them that they are less than.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Wrong. What you “get” is your own assumption that because I’m black, I’m only voting for Obama due to his race. Which is yet another item to add to my growing list of reasons to dislike you.

      As a gay man who is also black, I take offense when anyone (gay, hetero, black, white, or otherwise) frivolously uses slavery as an analogy for any wrong done to him/her. For instance, if you were not literally forced to pick cotton, I don’t see the necessity of using that as a metaphor for being wronged, put in your place, etc.

      It has nothing to do with how equal black civil rights are to gay civil rights + everything to do w/ how inappropriate I feel it is to make light of slavery (or any other such tragic event in history). If my offense at that comparison offends you, that’s too bad.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 6:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      No. 92: Yes dear it’s your bad that you fail or refuse to see the treatment of GLBT people as a “tragic event in history” but that’s no news to me. As a gay man I take offense when I hear people of color especially blacks who have been historically discriminated because of who
      they are refuse and even berate and reprimand people like me for equating their struggles to mine knowing quite well that we too historically have face horrible endings, such as being invisible victims during the holocaust and being treated much worse than a piece of property (killed) in places were black people are in the majority. I attended a rally once in which I heard a black woman who was speaking in favor of GLBT people said that she could not call herself a civil rights advocate if she wasn’t in favor of everyones civil rights(that meant us gay,lesbian, bisexual and transgender people). Sad to see that people like her with her conscience are a small minority within the African American community.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 6:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Whatever.

      There is no reasoning with someone like yourself, because you will only hear what you want to hear + make the rest up.

      Adios.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawrenceNY21
      LawrenceNY21

      “I see the amount of energy it takes to hold their heads up or the arrogance and hyper attention paid to their appearance masking their anger, sadness and emptiness.”

      Michael you touched a dormant cord in me and now I feel AWFUL. I’ll try to remember that feeling on this sunday’s PRIDE PARADE in NY; so I can walk with certainty of why I am proud to be a strong gay man.

      But I agree with Churchill-Y:
      “What good is it for someone to be taught to love him/her self if once they have to confront the world the law always reminds them that they are less than.” We owe it to the next Gay generation to fight this battle.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • marcus
      marcus

      777-Sorry that you are such a literal thinker, maybe it would do you well to take a creative writing class, so that you can expand yourself into the world of metaphors, analogies etc. I understand that you don’t wanna share your “special victimhood” with anyone else. Jesus Christ, the Civil War is over, stop holding on so tight. I find it amazing that a black man such as Obama holds a belief system of inequality, but then I guess once the victim, now the perpetrator.

      To while my nails are drying, write what you fucking want, we still have freedom of speech, or did they attach something to the FISA bill I don’t know about.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Marcus, fuck off. I don’t need your “sorries” for my thinking.

      Obviously, I’m familiar with metaphors + analogies (since I mentioned both in my prior posts). I won’t even bother responding to that “special victimhood” or “holding on” to the Civil War rubbish.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hal
      hal

      Hillary supports the rules until she is losing, then suddenly it’s unfair. Good luck in your *movement* Judging by the polls, McSame will need all the help he can get. But what the hell. I am completely at peace with an Obama loss…

      I’m proud of the democratic party. We had two dynamic, history making candidates this year, two candidates who brought out millions of voters, and millions more then the repubs. I don’t like Hillary. I have a million things this season that pissed me off about her, but in the end, no matter how she would have one, I would have voted for her. My first and foremost desire is to end this bush administration and put a dem in the white house that I at least know will not ban abortion, or support right wing justices to the Supreme Court (which BTW, will be losing 2 to 4 members over the next 8 years), and that for me is a start.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • marcus
      marcus

      to frito-777 the insults that you sling and intolerance of other peoples points of view is good example of what I was speaking about. Along with that suggested creative writing class you might consider thinking about dealing with that malady. (see how it feels
      when your so nasty?)

      To Churchill-y, I am sorry if I implied abandoning the fight for equality and trading it for esteeming our youth. I just think the fight would be easier won if more of us felt truly good about ourselves and really believed at the bottom of our souls we were equal.
      It would not take many. Dr, King had that kind of self esteem and showed other blacks how contagious a person who knows himself can be. I don’t think you would have a difficult time finding many a black person that would not agree that he was pivotal in their own spiritual and psychological development. His words inspire me and help me believe in myself and I am white. Listen to his words, only a man who has seen himself could come up with this and I think we as gay people ought embrace them:

      “Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality.”

      “Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them. ”
      (insert Gays for Negroes)

      “The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be… The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists. ”

      To LawrenceNY21, hold your head up high first for yourself and and then for all of us that will not be at N.Y. pride, you know what the truth is.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Yawn.

      On a more interesting topic, that is a particularly flattering shot of Obama attached to this article. I meant to mention that earlier but got side-tracked with tomfoolery.

      Anyway, I’m off to do some work on the new venture. Later, folks.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • marcus
      marcus

      frito-777, I thought you bid us farewell? Obviously we have you hooked. Maybe you do not need me sorries for your thinking, but
      you do need help.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 7:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Actually, Marcus, I never bade you farewell. I told Churchill “adios”, meaning that I had nothing further to say to him. Likewise, I have nothing further to say to you (other than that you need help with your spelling more than I need help with my creative writing).

      Go about your business, thanks.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 8:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • while my nails are drying
      while my nails are drying [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Hey Freako777- Enjoy your new venture tonight, I hear you do a mean Diana Ross.
      (Michael forgive me, I just could help myself)

      Jun 22, 2008 at 8:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      All I want is to be proud of my community, and I won’t put aside my rights for any party or candidate be it the Democratic or Republican.
      And first and foremost my desire is to put an end to the discrimination and injustices we face here in our country, and that’s my starting and ending point.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 8:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      Marcus: unless you’re also Michael, nothing you have written would make me believe that. I completely agree with you and I thank you for the Dr. kings quotes, we are in the same page. But I even agree with Michael’s main sentiment I just disagree with his conclusion which I believe totally undermines his desires which I believe are the same as yours and mine.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 8:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      “Freako777″… Clever.

      Nah, I don’t do drag. Also very clever, though. I’m working on some stuff for the new site, actually. By “I’m off”, I didn’t mean I was leaving the home office, just that I’ll be focused on that for the moment. I was going to stop posting for a few hours, but I reckon I could do both. Meh.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 8:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      “Marcus, fuck off”, “Whatever”, “Yawn”- Fredo777

      …None is more clever than you.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 9:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • while my nails are drying
      while my nails are drying [Different person #1 using similar name]

      fredo777

      Hey, at least you have a good sense of humor no matter what the disagreements might be!

      Jun 22, 2008 at 9:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael [Different person #2 using similar name]

      actually marcus is my partner, we are sharing the same computer right now and of course in order to be with me he must think like me! Seriously, he just gets all caught up in my posts and has to put in his 2 cents in which I mostly agree with.

      Marcus and Michael, I know so fucking cute it is sickening! We also are just one day apart in birth and after 9 years together we are heading to San Fran on the 28th of July to get married! We are registered at the Mac Store, (hint,hint)

      Jun 22, 2008 at 9:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      lol

      Yeah, I have a pretty good sense of humor when I’m not pissed about something.

      Jun 22, 2008 at 9:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RPCV
      RPCV

      #88 Micheal: Beautifully worded. Standing ovation…….

      Jun 22, 2008 at 9:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHURCHILL-Y
      CHURCHILL-Y

      Oh, I get it. All the best to you two lovebirds.

      ps: And you’re right it’s sickening cute. ;)

      Jun 22, 2008 at 9:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RPCV
      RPCV

      In reading the postings through the #90’s, I feel I need to jump in here and agree with those who espouse that the black community plays the “victim’ card. It’s as pervasive as the ever-present race card that runs rampant through that community. I feel so sorry for them. In comparison to what the black community is acheiving in terms of respect and acceptance, I feel that the gay community is leaps and bounds ahead of them.

      I’m SOOOOO incredibly tired of black people’s chip on their shoulder. While the Latinos come in droves to work, work, work, the blacks are quickly sliding down the ladder of opportunity and are, or will soon be, irrelevant in helping this country achieve the American dream for every inhabitant. Blacks, by and large, are a drain on America’s progress.

      Will Bower: If you’re still following this thread, I apologize on behalf of all the other commenters who have so completely dissed you by moving so far afield from the “subject” of this thread – you and your honorable activities…….

      Jun 22, 2008 at 9:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      Here are some great quotes on the subject of race relations between blacks and whites from Dr. King. His words never cease to amaze me with there power, conviction and humility. Without a doubt he was one, if not the greatest man of the 20th century.

      “The Negro needs the white man to free him from his fears. The white man needs the Negro to free him from his guilt.”

      “If physical death is the price that I must pay to free my white brothers and sisters from a permanent death of the spirit, then nothing can be more redemptive. ”

      “I want to be the white man’s brother, not his brother-in-law.”

      and finally, here is a great one that applies to our struggle as GLBTs..

      “A right delayed is a right denied”. Somehow I believe that if Obama focused on the words of Dr. King, instead of the fearing the Christian Right, he would never in good consciounse have made the statement about marriage that he did. May Dr, Kings spirit find a way into his heart and consciounse. Obama has the opportunity of becoming the greatest man of the 20th century.
      No matter how we plan to vote at this stage of the game we owe him our prayers. Who knows, maybe then we can all join hands and vote for him with full hearts.”

      Jun 23, 2008 at 3:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mr C
      Mr C

      Once again Ms R2D2 with her vermin riots on Blacks. Girl, Once again if we’re sliding the ladder of opportunity. Then once again tell me why those WORKING CLASS, BLUE COLLAR, LUNCH BUCKET, GE STEAM IRONS, WHIRLPOOL WASHING MACHINE, MARLBORO SMOKING WHITES are climbing down also? You know just a few thoughts.

      You always keep finding a way to say that Blacks always have their hand out. It’s obvious we know how your stupid ass feels. But we really don’t care words without actions are simply BLAH, BLAH, BLAH such as you a racially motivated non-descript.

      And for Mr. Bower, God Bless and I hope you don’t plan on marrying, or looking for anything civil for gays if your boy McCain wins and boy won’t you be the new saviour for the gays, some of them anyway. Just think you’ll be a part of the right wing attacker on gays when those new justices get appointed and for all those that join you SERVES YOU ALL RIGHT! You only get what you ask for. You speak such disdain about Barack Obama and that Man played by the rules direct your anger at the Democratic party. Understandable you’re angry Queen Mother Hillary didn’t get it. OH WELL such as life. And if he doesn’t get it you’ll get your way this time and we’ll get ours in 2012 we can all become spiteful and revengeful. In votes she only had him by a couple of thousand.
      BIG DEAL they will more than likely be running together anyway.

      Jun 23, 2008 at 3:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CTnSF
      CTnSF

      After reading through the posts on this site, I now realize how a moron such as Bush was elected and then re-elected. We truly are a nation of retards…with the power to destroy the world 100 times over. That is the scariest part.

      Jun 23, 2008 at 1:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • while my nails are drying
      while my nails are drying [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Mr C

      You seem to know a lot about white trash culture. How did you come to be so educated in its nuances. Remember, you only hate in others what you do in yourself. Anyway, your pretty good at spewing the hatred from your end, I guess its just the same bullshit
      only a different color.

      Jun 23, 2008 at 4:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Richard
      Richard

      Will someone help me understand how Obama’s stance on gay marriage equates to voting for McCain? Does McCain support full marriage rights? Did Hillary? What am I missing other than the fact that some here have a prejudice that I, as an African American gay have seen for years in the gay community? I have experienced the same level of prejudice from members of the gay community as I have homophobia from the AA community. And yet the logic is to vote for McCain? I have watched these blogs ever since the Democratic primary and it seems to be the same bitter bloggers, churchill-y, RPVC, etc now Will Bowers. Enough, you all might delude yourselves into thinking the only source of prejudice here is with the AA community but I have experienced it from both communities (as well as white conservatives who caused me to lose my job and home 15 years ago but that doesn’t matter, let’s just vote for them again). I deal with white conservatives who will stop at nothing to harm both AA and gays (I know being a participant in both communities). If some of you have the luxury to pretend to have the power to vote Republican well more power to you if it is for ideological reasons. I will not, because my marginalization (at the hands of conservatives of all walks including a white gay conservative I used to work with, homophobic AA, and christian conservatives) has cost me too much. Glad you seem to have the luxury to vote Republican. I don’t.

      Jun 23, 2008 at 9:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mr C
      Mr C

      Excuse me “while my nails are drying”

      I don’t spew anything. For I am not a person of hate. If you read a few of RPCV’s posts on here where he is always demeaning African Americans for his enjoyment which obviously you’re not African American so his statements may not offend you but it does ME. And I choose to respond.

      WITHOUT APOLOGY

      He creates action with his words
      And I offered a Re-action with mines

      Plain and simple…….
      Keep the bullshit racists rants off here and we’ll all be fine.

      Oh and by the how I become educated with these nuances…….UMMMMMMMMM
      CNN
      MSNBC
      FAUX NOISE
      CBS, etc

      They are the ones who made mentioned of that not me.
      And I have never called anyone WHITE TRASH!

      Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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