Let’s play “compare and contrast”. From the American Psychological Association:
Bisexuality in women appears to be a distinctive sexual orientation and not an experimental or transitional stage that some women adopt “on their way” to lesbianism, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.
…
“This research provides the first empirical examination of competing assumptions about the nature of bisexuality, both as a sexual identity label and as a pattern of nonexclusive sexual attraction and behavior,” wrote University of Utah psychologist Lisa M. Diamond, PhD, who conducted the study.
Now, let’s take a look at Renew America’s Bryan Fischer has to say:
In what could quickly become an embarrassment to the American Psychological Association, which long ago sold their professionals souls to be shills for the homosexual agenda, the APA yesterday released a study which celebrates the “sexual fluidity” of self-described bisexual, lesbian and “unlabeled” women.
Indeed the APA’s ten-year study does show that women changed their labels – they sometimes switched between “bisexual” and “unlabeled” – but that doesn’t mean their sexuality changed, just what they chose to call themselves. Of course poor Fischer can’t wrap his mind around such a concept. Why? Because it’s closed, silly!
gay as life
Interesting to see that this focuses on women. I’m still dubious about bisexuality in males, but I know several bisexual women.
ProfessorVP
G.A.L., I’m no scientist, but I’ve- shall we say, been around the block… 3 times- and I’ve never seen a speck of evidence that a man who claims to be bisexual is anything but gay. Now, women- that’s another matter completely.
Eclipse
Ah, speculation based on one’s own sex life. Never gets dull.
Let’s just accept the fact that this study is about women. Instead of using the tired “I’ve never slept with a truly bisexual man” statement as evidence of their non-existence, perhaps you should petition the APA to do a study.
And of course, I would further recommend that gay men examine their own bi-phobia which may keep their friends and acquaintances from expressing their bi tendencies for fear of being ridiculed.
WWH
All women are lesbians.
Becca
My friend’s sister, Swedish Psychologist Camilla Kolm, basically found that many of us are just sick and tired of men’s shit.
Bryan Fischer is certainly one of those men. What an Idiot!
Meeg
Some experts on sexuality really do claim that women can be bisexual but that men express a strong sexual response to either heterosexual or homosexual stimuli.
Que?
To have credence to make such a bold statement, I’m sure Bryan Fischer and everyone else at Renew America spent years studying psychology, have obtained numerous advanced degrees in the field and have dedicated their lives to understanding the most intricate workings of the human brain.
(Googling Renew America’s scientific credentials.)
Wait! What the hell?
eagledancer4444
As an actual sex researcher (my specialization has been on inter-racial same-sex couples)and Couples Therapist, I have often suspected we would have different discussions if we used the term “omnisexual” rather than “bisexual.”
I personally like “pansexual” that sounds a bit new agey and spiritually based for checking a box on a form…
Kid A
@G.A.L. and ProfessorVP: As a bi male (apparently emerging from the queer shadows) I have to say that it is assumptions like yours that make it hard to be understood as bi. At worst, people think that I have male and female genitalia…nope.
I’ve gotten more resentment from gays than straights, with no good reason. I have been in a committed straight relationship for 5 years, but would consider myself a Kinsey 4/5. I don’t see how I am “straight-acting” by coming out and being visible when I really don’t have to be.
If 100% gay persons would like open-mindedness and understanding from straights, why can’t bi people get the same from both camps?
Nikko
I agree Kid A…. I love bisexuals. I can’t stand the biphobia of many gays. I don’t get it. God, I wish I were bi.
Boo
Perhaps the APA could do a study on why so many people find the concept of bi men so much more threatening than bi women.
Giacomo
The concept of bi men is so much more threatening than that of bi women because male sexuality in general is more threatening than female sexuality. That and all those fantasies straight guys have about doing it with two women.
Paul Raposo
Of the bi men I’ve met, all are either married to, or in LTR with women and all have had little to no history with men–sexual, or emotional. Not oddly enough, all are also metro-hipster-trendsters, whose women love that they wear “prodcut” in their hair, wear makeup and nail polish and love fashion and follow all of the other stereotypical “gay” cliches. Only one had a sexual encounter with another male and that was oral sex while in high school. Yet all identify as bi. Perhaps some of Queerty’s bi readers could discuss this, in an effort to eliminate bi-phobia
ProfessorVP
Merely doubting the existence of something doesn’t mean that something is found threatening.
Saying I don’t believe in the Tooth Fairy doesn’t mean I have a phobia about the Tooth Fairy.
Some of the “bi” men I’ve met- they just wanted the companionship, status, and social acceptance that comes with genuine (that is to say “legal”) marriage. And also, having kids around. For their real satisfying sex, they go online or the Larry Craig route. Some others are just plain disingenuous; they don’t like the word “gay,” as if “bi” were a promotion. Male pansexuality is a bargeload of crap. There comes a time when truth needs to trump political correctness. Females can be on the fence, and often are. But not males. I recall one sexologist saying, “If you don’t like the way sex works, complain to The Manufacturer.” This is the way it is, kids; and all the PC in the world doesn’t change it.
Boo
So we have Paul Raposo saying that all the bi men he’s met are str8 guys trying to be trendy, and Professor VP insisting that all bi men are half-closeted gays. Well, at least y’all can agree on their bisexuality being a cover, if you still come to opposite conclusions about what it’s a cover for. Funny, that. I assume you both can also agree that your conclusions cannot be colored in any way by anti-bisexual bias? (fyi professor VP- calling bi women “on the fence” implies that they’re just indecisive. No bias here, move along.) Meanwhile an actual bi guy shows up, but who cares what he has to say? Stop being such a half-closeted gay guy, Kid A! I mean trendy str8 guy! I mean… well, whatever, just quit saying things that disagree with my identity politics! It gives me uncomfortable pricklies!
Oh, and ranting against political correctness is the new political correctness. Jus’ sayin.
ProfessorVP
Boo, “on the fence is not an insult.” On some political issues I have been, and still am, “on the fence.” On some things I’m not “on the fence.” For example, I would never vote for a Republican, period. But I have nothing against people who are on the fence there, or sexually.
It’s childish to say, in essence, “You claim not to believe me because you don’t like me, or feel threatened by my existence.” If people don’t believe you’re really bisexual (and I’m one of them), it’s not that we don’t like you, or that we fear you. We just don’t buy your hogwash.
Paul Raposo
“So we have Paul Raposo saying that all the bi men he’s met are str8 guys trying to be trendy”
Well, I didn’t say they were straight. I just said that of the bi men I’ve met, only one guy had any contact with another male and that was one time in high school. It could be inferred that yes, they are just trying to be trendy.
“your conclusions cannot be colored in any way by anti-bisexual bias?”
Probably. There is biphobia in the community; why, I’m not sure. I just have issues with men who seem to want to play “roles” while in the community, but act like hets when outside of the community. It’s like Gerard Way talking to mainstream outlets and going on about his gf; then talking to an alterna mags and going on about his bisexuality. It seems like an act for too many self-identified bisexuals.
“Meanwhile an actual bi guy shows up, but who cares what he has to say?”
I wish he and others would say more, actually. I’m genuinely interested in what they have to say about this.
It just seems to me, that too many bi’s are more than willing to dump the community when things get tough and go running for the het hills. Even Joe Gage ran off and married a woman when AIDS hit the community. Now he’s back out of the closet and making porn and sleeping with men again.
Tom Robinson marries a woman, has kids and still insists he’s gay. If he was gay, why didn’t he try having that same LTR with a man, rather than slutting around with men and then running to a woman in the AIDS plagued ’80’s?
I guess I’ll just come out and say it–claiming bisexuality seems like a cop out and a bit cowardly. Which is odd, since I’m sure it takes a great deal of courage to be openly bi in the LGBTQ community.
“Oh, and ranting against political correctness is the new political correctness. Jus’ sayin.”
Quite true.
Eclipse
Wow, Professor VP- you just don’t get it. “On the fence” IS an insult as you use it to define female bisexuality. You assume that a bisexual woman can’t make up her mind between the sexes, not that she is CERTAIN she enjoys both. Just as you would “never vote for a Republican, period,” many women like both sexes, period.
Paul, I think that you do understand why biphobia exists in the community- because the most visable bisexual men, such as those you described, are doing a crappy job of being spokesmen. This is exactly why visibility is key. Just as it was with gay men back in the day.
Bisexual men tend not to be out because (1) gay guys won’t date them (2) straight women are afraid of them and (3) people don’t believe them even when they DO come out.
Biphobia exists because of bitterness on the sides of “100% gay” people (which I don’t believe exist, btw) because there is a sense of bis being able to enjoy heterosexual priviledge AND the beauty of queer culture. Biphobia also exists because there are enough people who have had their hearts broken by bisexuals who have left them for the other sex (as if being left for someone of the same sex isn’t as much of an offense). And biphobia exists because of internalized homophobia, heterophobia, and transphobia (they’re too gay, they aren’t gay enough, or “how on earth could he be attracted to someone like that?!”). Finally, biphobia exists because of jealousy- pure and simple, because who doesn’t love the idea of being able to love anyone regardless of gender or sex?
So, bisexual men need to take a lesson from their gay brothers and sisters and COME OUT despite the vitriol they may receive from members of their own community. That’s the only way to get more healthy, well-rounded bisexual men to be visible.
ProfessorVP
Eclipse, maybe “on the fence” lacks clarity. I only meant uncomitted to one side of the fence only. I suppose I meant “on both sides of the fence” but I don’t know if that expression exists. In any case, yes, many women are sexually aroused by both males and females. However, men are different. Here’s a clinical study that employs what I call the peck-o-meter test…
http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=32037&comview=1
Now, if you say that bi men have a spiritual attraction to women, are very comfortable with them, form close bonds of friendship with them, then I’d say that is total hogwash with respect to the definition of one’s sexuality. I believe that we define sexuality by what sexually arouses us. Straight men by women; straight women by men; bi-women by men and women; and bi men, according to the study, which I agree with, by men. Which means they’re gay.
Now I’m not saying I discovered bi men are really gay when this study came out; I knew it before. I am not necessarily the brightest person at this site; just maybe the oldest, so I’ve been around.
La BiChingona
What dialogue this has prompted. It’s nice to see some back and forth, though the “bisexual men don’t exist” claim continues to confuse me. Really? I see it as the inevitability of biological pluralism. If there are men who are attracted only to men, and women who are attracted only to women, and men who are attracted only to women, and women who are attracted only to men, and women who are attracted to men and women, and “men” who are in fact women who are attracted to men… (get my drift?) HOW on god’s green earth are men who are attracted to both men and women conspicuously absent from all of humanity? It just doesn’t make statistical sense. In my experience, I’ve met plenty of men who identify as gay but don’t mind sex with women. They just don’t call themselves bisexual. Mostly because they’d be ostracized in the gay male community and would be criticized for holding onto straight privilege. But if they don’t identify as bi, where’s the privilege?
My other rant is about the picture associated with the post. The supervillain Two Face? Really? Could that be more insulting? That’s worse than saying I’m “on the fence.”
ProfessorVP
They “don’t mind sex with women” ????? A rather odd thing to say, Chingona. Some people don’t mind cauliflower. Some people don’t mind Gwenyth Paltrow. Some folks don’t mind airplane food. And some don’t mind those long commerical breaks on TV. But is that what defines one’s sexuality– a minor pleasure/annoyance you can take or leave? I really don’t think so.
If men who are attracted to both sexes are conspicuously absent, it is because they very rarely exist.
Eclipse
The study you cite, Professor VP, has a lot of problems. This is why there is the section below it that criticizes the study.
The major problem is the limitations by which it measures arousal. To take the study as gospel is to make two egregious assumptions. 1) Arousal is stimulated only by vision. This means that all our other senses are meaningless in terms of arousal- which, of course, is bogus. Smell, in particular, is essential for arousal and 2) The pornography shown is equally appealing to all sexualities. This, again, is a vast oversimplification. To assume that bisexual men would, in effect, possess two “brains”- one that thinks like a gay man, and one that thinks like a straight man, is reductive based on our only established frameworks for sexuality: Gay and Straight. It assumes that since het men like “lesbian” porn then bisexual men must, too.
The study was a good starting point, but most people agree that there is a whole lot more work that needs to be done in this area.
And since you, Professor VP seem so content with relying on the fact you’ve “been around the block… 3 times,” I guess my anecdotal information will be the only thing you understand: Two of my lovers are bisexual men who enjoy my (female) body as much as they enjoy each others’. And I’ve attended many a queer orgy in which penises were erect for both the men and the women. Perhaps it’s because you’re the “oldest” here that you are unable to accept anything other than the traditional binary, to which I say, open your mind and you’ll be amazed at the degrees of variation in human expression. It’s a glorious thing.
mykill
from Paul @17 – “claiming bisexuality seems like a cop out and a bit cowardly”
Keeping quiet and pretending to be 100% gay or 100% het when you are attracted to men and women is cowardly. Being an out bisexual that has to face homophobia in straight space and face being told you don’t exist in gay space is hardly being cowardly.
and from Prof VP @ 21 – “If men who are attracted to both sexes are conspicuously absent, it is because they very rarely exist.”
Plenty exist. We just don’t care to hang around bigots, especially people who should know better after having plenty of people say their love and attractions are not valid.
Paul Raposo
“Merely doubting the existence of something doesn’t mean that something is found threatening.”
ProfVP, does that comment also stand for anti-gay people who steadfastly refuse to believe that gays can be in LTR and loving and committed to each other? When Pat Robertson says gay love does not exist, is he not really threatened by our potential for love?
Paul Raposo
“Paul, I think that you do understand why biphobia exists in the community- because the most visable bisexual men, such as those you described, are doing a crappy job of being spokesmen. This is exactly why visibility is key. Just as it was with gay men back in the day.”
But should bi’s have to be spokespersons for bisexuality? I mean, gays have spent decades telling others to leave us alone to be ourselves without having to prove ourselves. Shouldn’t we–the gay community–give that same consideration to bisexuals? Why should I demand more of a bisexual, than I do of myself?
“Bisexual men tend not to be out because (1) gay guys won’t date them (2) straight women are afraid of them and (3) people don’t believe them even when they DO come out.”
I know I wouldn’t feel comfortable dating a bi man because I would always have the–let’s say fear–that he would dump me for a female. I can compete with a man, but how can I compete with a woman?
“Biphobia exists because of bitterness on the sides of ‘100% gay’ people (which I don’t believe exist, btw) because there is a sense of bis being able to enjoy heterosexual priviledge AND the beauty of queer culture.”
For me it’s more about, “Are you with us, or against us?” Sad, I know.
When equal marriage was being debated here in Canada, a bi and I got into a heated argument because he said if gays wanted to get married, they should do like bi’s and marry women. He was one of those people who believed his marriage would be tainted if gays could get married. maybe that tainted my view of bi’s. I don’t know.
“So, bisexual men need to take a lesson from their gay brothers and sisters and COME OUT despite the vitriol they may receive from members of their own community. That’s the only way to get more healthy, well-rounded bisexual men to be visible.”
Sometimes I feel like bi’s forget they are suppose to be the “B” in LGBTQ. Many do catch hell from us and that is unwarranted. But at the same time, I guess it’s a feeling that bi’s are–what?–spies for straight people. Like they infiltrate our gay world and report back to the straight world on our doings. Paranoid, I know.
“Finally, biphobia exists because of jealousy- pure and simple, because who doesn’t love the idea of being able to love anyone regardless of gender or sex?”
True. I guess I could feel better about bi’s if the one’s I’ve met didn’t treat men as playthings and women as superior. Men are ok to lust after–but not ok to date.
Paul Raposo
“Keeping quiet and pretending to be 100% gay or 100% het when you are attracted to men and women is cowardly. Being an out bisexual that has to face homophobia in straight space and face being told you don’t exist in gay space is hardly being cowardly.”
This is true, which is why I followed up my cowardice comment with:
“Which is odd, since I’m sure it takes a great deal of courage to be openly bi in the LGBTQ community.”
It just seems that the bi men I’ve dealt with seem to have a superiority complex towards gay men. But at the same time, they are fearful of the straight world.
Paul Raposo
And DO NOT get me started on, “gay-for-pay”. I’m just sayin’.
ProfessorVP
Paul, please resist the temptation to over-write. But you made a good point- The peck-o-meter study was a good starting point on the topic. I agree. I think more study on the topic will confirm that men who claim to be bi are, in fact, only sexually aroused by men. Now, about people denying the existence of something because they hate or fear it… Trust me on this one: Pat Robertson probably doesn’t even care one way or the other about same-sex love, and that goes for
Fred Phelps and G. W. Bush also. It’s just a business. It’s certainly no surprise- to me, anyway- that so many priests in that homo-hating institution, the Catholic church, are themselves gay. It’s for money, power. “Vote for me; I oppose same-sex marriage,” is a cynical ploy. Those who spew that often don’t really care, or, in some cases (Larry Craig, Hillary Clinton, Lindsey Graham, Babs Mikulski) are themselves gay or lesbian. No, I don’t think the belief that bi men don’t exist is rooted in hatred or fear.
Paul Raposo
“Paul, please resist the temptation to over-write.”
I’m sure if we did a word count on some of your posts, PVP, we’d all be floored by thier wordiness. The difference lies in the fact that my comments actually say something. Yours on the other hand, are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Just sayin’.
“Trust me on this one: Pat Robertson probably doesn’t even care one way or the other about same-sex love, and that goes for Fred Phelps and G. W. Bush also. Those who spew that often don’t really care, or, in some cases (Larry Craig, Hillary Clinton, Lindsey Graham, Babs Mikulski) are themselves gay or lesbian.”
Please provide something other than your biased opinion as evidence, Prof. Show your work, not your subjective interpretations of other people’s opinions
Paul Raposo
“No, I don’t think the belief that bi men don’t exist is rooted in hatred or fear.”
Clearly, the fact that you are the only person accusing yourself of being afraid of bisexuals, says more about you than it does about anyone debating you on this. Sorta like people telling everyone they aren’t homophobic because they are not afraid of gays, while their actions belie their statement.
ProfessorVP
No, Paul, read all the comments carefully. The first accusation of bi-phobia and/or resentment came from Eclipse, then Kid A., then others. I accuse myself of nothing. I have been saying that doubting the existence of male bisexuals does not necessarily stem from fear/hate. I hate the people who got us involved in Iraq, and I fear idiots like Mike Huckabee, and a few select others. I find nothing loathsome or fear-inducing about male bisexuals. I just don’t think there are many, or possibly any.
Paul Raposo
“No, Paul, read all the comments carefully. The first accusation of bi-phobia and/or resentment came from Eclipse, then Kid A., then others.”
In a genral sense taking place during a debate, yes:
Eclipse:
“I would further recommend that gay men examine their own bi-phobia”
And:
“Biphobia exists because of bitterness on the sides of ‘100% gay’ people…”
I haven’t read anything about biphobia from Kid A.
However, I nor any other poster accused you of being fearful of bi’s. You did this yourself.
“I find nothing loathsome or fear-inducing about male bisexuals. I just don’t think there are many, or possibly any.”
A much more reasoned reply, which if presented earlier, would have done a better job of presenting your opinion, rather than the origianl beligerant statments you made as this debate began.
I don’t know if bi’s “exist” or not. However, I have met people who self-identify as bisexual. Who am I to imprint my experiences and value judgments on them?
I knew I was gay before I had any sort of sexual experience, yet no one claimed I had to have sex with a male to actually be gay. So perhaps I should not expect bi’s to have sex with men to be bi. But at the same time, I think it would help. But does my opinion really matter in the long run? It shouldn’t.
ProfessorVP
Kid A wrote of “resentment” of his bi status, Paul, and there’s a recurring theme on this threat of hate/resentment/lack of understanding/fear on the part of those who doubt the existence of bi men. Giacomo (#12) put it well, not about me in particular, but in general:
“The concept of bi men is so much more threatening than that of bi women because male sexuality in general is more threatening than female sexuality.”
Yes, trust me on this one: a lot of the people you think are full of hate are just full of opportunity. Just one example is proud homophobe Colin Powell, who always said the presence of out gays would bring our military (okay, pun intended) to its knees. Y’know, the usual trust/unit cohesion bullshit. Anyway, Powell’s aide had had enough of it, and one day came right out to Powell and told him he was gay. Powell’s response was something like, “Don’t worry about it,” and the matter was dropped. Go to blogactive.com, a very good site, and you’ll see a list of gay people who staff homophobic congressmen and senators. Believe me, they (the congressmen and senators) don’t really care. If they really did care, they’d fire them.
JuggaloGenius
You are all wrong…. the human mind is nothing more than loose cannon that can be guided by what others say… Some are easier than others.
“You can fly”, “You can fly”, “You can fly”, “You can fly”, “You can fly”.
If enough influential people in your life tell you this, you might be start to believe that you can fly.
The gay community uses this to make people think they are gay. The gay community targets mentally ill people with OCD, Bipolar and Schizofrenia. Many people with these diseases (not all) have brilliant but fragile minds that are easily misguided and washed.
Since a small child I have been heavily attracted to females, I have a child, iv been having sex with women since the age of 13. Constant anger and depression due to abuse from the opposite sex can cause any person to question their own sexuality, a broken heart is a dangerous thing which makes someone vulnerable to influence.
I will tell you the truth. I cracked the code.
A mind that is wide awake has free choice, choice to choose which sex you want to be with. All humans go through stages of fetishes… sexual arousal is ONLY based on fetish… People with open minds can fall into fetishes of any desire.
Some guys might like big bottom girls, or skinny girls, or fat girls. If a guy cannot get an erection with a women that is fat and ugly, does that make them gay? What if a pretty girl gives them an erection? What if watching animals have sex gives that person an erection?
I’ll tell you what… I’v gotten off on watching beastiality.. does that mean I want to have sex with a horse or dog? No… but I got an erection watching a dog have sex with a woman. It’s a fetish… hearing the dog whine as it ejaculated into the woman’s vagina… it turned me on.
Sexuality is 100% flexible… it is possible to become attracted to anything on this planet.
Note this… many bisexual’s are the most intelligent people on the planet… and most of them suffer from some sort of mental illness.
Common people are sleeping, they are just a tools, cattle, easily guided by blind faith of their shepherds.
A PERSON WITH TRUE FAITH IN THEIR SELF IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN ANYTHING ON THIS PLANET… BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE HYPNOTIZED OR INFLUENCED BY ANYTHING BUT THEIR OWN CONSCIENCE AND UN-CONSCIENCE MIND.
The truth is… everyone is bisexual. It’s just hard for normal human minds to actually love both genders equally… I prefer females… but constant mental abuse has made me question myself… still… I love females… The sounds they make, the soft wet flesh of the vagina, the way they squirm when you make them orgasm.