The campaign against Human Rights Campaign continues.
HRC came under fire last year after flip-flopping on an inclusive Employment Non-Discrimination Act. After vowing to fight for trans rights, the non-profit did an about face and began pushing for a gays-only version of the legislation.
Now, months later, the after shocks are being felt in San Francisco, where two of the city’s gay politicos have vowed to boycott HRC’s annual dinner next month:
On Tuesday, San Francisco Supervisors Tom Ammiano and Bevan Dufty introduced a resolution at City Hall calling for a bill that includes transgender people and recognizing the boycott.
“The Human Rights Campaign should not be human rights cowards,” Ammiano said at a news conference at the San Francisco Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Community Center. He said the organization seems uneasy with transgender issues.
Dufty said he will skip the fundraising dinner for the first time in 23 years and instead will make dinner at his home for people protesting outside the event.
The city’s two LGBT Democratic clubs support the boycott, as does the San Francisco Labor Council. Assemblyman Mark Leno and state Sen. Carole Migden, both of San Francisco, also are not attending the event.
HRC has continuously defended last year’s queer stance an claim they “exhausted every resource” to do the right thing. They were forced, they say, to fight for what they could get. Too bad they ended up fighting their own kind.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
So, what’s the moral of the story? If you’re going to claim to be the nation’s largest, most important queer non-profit, don’t act so “gay.”
Darth Paul
I heard THAT…
forbesfart
hrc swines.
Homo Politico
Couldn’t we just wait for them to redeem themselves instead of committing ourselves to boycotting everything they do in the future? Maybe, just maybe, they’ve learned their lesson.
John
How brave of politicians in San Francisco – an incredibly liberal city – to criticize HRC who has to deal with the political realities of DC – which includes (gasp!) Republicans and conservative Democrats! How dare HRC push for rights for everyone (including transgender citizens) and face political reality and try to, at least, improve the rights of the G, L and B in GLBT?! It’s fair to disagree with HRC’s position, but to imply it (and Barney Frank, etc.) doesn’t care about transgender rights or that it is anti-trans is ridiculous. I assume these brave San Francisco leaders are going to push for the return the $500,000 HRC donated to fight the anti-gay marriage initiative on the ballot there as well – after all, if HRC is so vile, isn’t accepting its money an endorsement of its policies? I’m super-progressive and very pro-trans, but this kind of gratuitious, pandering HRC-bashing makes me crazy.
fredo777
Word to that, John.
Word. to. that.
chunkstyle
He’s making a statement to raise awareness it doesn’t mean that he has to disavow every single thing the HRC does correctly. The HRC should realize that by marginalizing the ‘T’ in GLBT, they are showing the government that even the GLB community thinks that transgendered people are too weird to properly fight for in public.
CTnSF
John, your suggestion that HRC’s $500K be returned is silly because the initiative is a statewide ballot and not San Francisco specific and none of that money needs to be spent in SF because we will overwhemingly reject the gay marriage ban.
Second, clearly what Ammiano and Dufty are doing is not something taken lightly and it is courageous to challenge the decision-making and policies of the HRC. There is nothing gratuitious or pandering in their voice of dissent; instead, it is a wake-up call to come down off the perch and it will make the HRC a more accountable organization. We should therefore applaud their actions as it will hopefully force the HRC to be more inclusive of all of us in the GLBT community.
fredo777
I don’t see how his suggestion that they return the donation is at all silly. Regardless of whether SF “needs” the money spent there or not, its gay inhabitants would potentially benefit from any efforts to fight the ban elsewhere in California. Efforts which happen to include those of the HRC.
Jaroslaw
I ask this as a serious question – what can HRC do to sufficiently apologize?
On a related but another note – like it or not, Civil Unions paved the way for marriage. It is perfectly reasonable to assume the HRC is telling the truth about working to attain the possible, not the impossible AT THIS TIME. As John said, Washington DC is not San Francisco. Frankly, if HRC was pile of dirtbags as the negative comments imply, Joe Solomonese never would have promised anything to the Trans community. He probably got caught up in the spirit of the meeting and made a promise he couldn’t keep, wished he hadn’t made and now is he supposed to apologize forever?
CTnSF
So then you are thinking it appropriate to punish gays in the entire state for what two elected officials did in SF? Wow, I thought that type of retributive politics was only played by Republicans.
Moreover, to suggest that the defeat of the initiative somehow benefits SF gays more than it does gays worldwide is extremely shortsighted. Defeating the initiative should be the goal so to have a ripple effect around the world. Suggesting that the money be returned because of what happens in SF is petty and childish.
Finally, HRC needs to realize that moving GLBT civil rights forward is not just about money and power, its also about principle. The principle being that the trans community should not be sold out because it makes some people uncomfortable.
fredo777
1. I never suggested that they should take their money back, but that it’s pretty shitty to willingly benefit from someone’s donation + not give them due credit, i.e. still vilifying them for past actions. It’s like saying “I’ll take your money + efforts to help make gay marriage a reality, but you still suck. And here’s why I’m boycotting you…”
2. When did I ever suggest that SF gays stood to benefit more from the initiative’s failure than gays anywhere else? In fact, I never mentioned gays worldwide b/c I thought this discussion was focused on Cali. at the moment.
You can call it petty if you wish, but I’m of the opinion that still boycotting the HRC + their functions is petty + childish.
fredo777
To clarify, I’m not suggesting that they can buy their way out of past mistakes, but if you’re going to boycott them or denounce them in one way or another, don’t accept their money, either.
I’m certainly not going to repeatedly dog Focus On The Family then turn around + accept a donation or sponsorship from them for an event I’m hosting. If I dislike them so much + disagree with their practices, I don’t want their money.
Lena Dahlstrom
@ Jaroslaw – What HRC can do is demonstrate by its _actions_ that it supports trans issues. It’s really no different than when you feel someone has betrayed you in a personal relationship — words aren’t enough (and HRC even been mealy-mouthed about that in their “apology” meetings around the country). It’s actions that show someone has really changed their ways.
Coming out quickly with a condemnation and call for action in the Duanna Johnson case — the trans woman who was beaten up by the cops at a police station — was a start. But OTOH, it was a fairly easy action for them to take without a lot of cost (all they had to do was issue a press release).
It’s when they face some hard choices and are willing to stand up for trans people — _and_ anyone who’s not straight-acting — that I’ll start believing them when they say they’ve changed.
That doesn’t mean I won’t work with them on other issues such as marriage equality, where our interests overlap. But until proven otherwise, on things like ENDA I’m assuming trans people will need to fight a two-pronged fight: lobbying Congress to pass something that also protect gender identity/expression (which also protects nelly gays and butch lesbians) as well as having to fight HRC’s efforts to claim they — or their hand-picked trans “leaders” that they keep trying to anoint — speak for us. Especially when HRC claims we’re willing to wait patiently for our turn to get civil rights.
(Funny how many people were pissed off when HRC and others called for folks to “go slow” on using lawsuits outside California to get their marriages recognized. Just sayin’….)
CHURCHILL-Y
Right on San Francisco! The HRC is an impotent money hungry organization.
CitizenGeek
All the HRC hate is ridiculous. Like John said, Washington DC is -not- San Francisco. Why does everyone hate the HRC so much for grounding their work in reality? Seriously, without the HRC, where do you think we’d be as a movement? Without the friendly face that HRC puts on gay rights, I’m certain we’d be very far behind when it comes to gay and trans rights. HRC does support transgender people, and just because they weren’t able to overcome the conservatives in DC, doesn’t change that.
And anyway, sexual orientation and gender identity disorder are two vastly different things, so I don’t think we should all be lumped together when our aims and goals are vastly different when you stay in reality and don’t rise up to the lofty heights of “acceptance”. The fact that the movement is being torn apart by this issue is further proof that homosexuality and transsexualism should not share the same political platform.
chuck
They take my membership fee annually and blitz the shit out of me by snail and email for more donations, but I have NEVER, EVER, gotten a response to any letter email I have sent them over the years.
Obviously, they feel that they do not need to acknowledge the people who support them.
Screw ’em. This is one card-carrying member who will not be renewing my membership again. I’ve had enough of these money-grubbers and their posh, fund-raising dinner parties that cost more to throw than the contributions they collect.
David
I don’t even get why the bill was passed AT ALL during this administration — they knew they didn’t have the votes to override G-Dub’s veto. So, if this bill was merely symbolic anyway, why didn’t they take a courageous stand and make it inclusive? Barney Frank’s defense of the non-T bill and his blame toward the trans community for not doing their part to change people’s hearts and minds — that line of thinking is b*llsh*t, to my way of thinking. So much for profiles in courage.
Steve
Idealistic people would have us refuse a partial victory because it is not a total victory. In politics, pragmatists take what they can get, and then go back for more. Often the partial gain is precisely the impetus that leads to the next step that comes later. The end result of the sequence of steps is indistinguishable from the total victory.
Progress is made incrementally. The process is iterative: Take what you can get; then ask for the rest. Repeat until you get what you want. Refusing to accept incremental progress, and insisting on all or nothing, is just stupid.
There are judgment calls to be made, regarding what we can get now and what has to wait. Usually the knowledgeable professionals who are in the middle of the negotiations are in a better position to make those judgment calls than anyone else.
Jaroslaw
CitizenGeek – Thanks for reminding me – I often wonder if Trans issues are Gay issues. I have read many passionate articles from both sides and I come away feeling not certain at all.
But it did remind me of something – I watched a lot of DVD’s and read hundreds of pages of Gay history and the lesson is very clear – a movement cannot accomplish anything if they try to right every wrong 100%. This is not to say Trans people should be left in the dust. But some Gay groups allied themselves with Black movements, poverty movements, anti-government, anti-war – on and on, in the late 50’s, early 60’s and eventually got nothing done.
And I think in an age of cable TV, Sirius radio, Blogs like this, people tend to forget how many people really do hate or strongly dislike us. It is easy to dismiss and forget people like Fred Phelps & co. from the comfort of our living room. But these people are real, numerous and they vote. Don’t underestimate the friendly face of the HRC as mentioned by CG. Even though they may not accomplish much going forward, sometimes preventing us going backwards is enough.
I’m sticking with the HRC – and Chuck – I haven’t corresponded with HRC a lot, but I did get an answer to my e-mail.
Jaroslaw
sorry – I meant to say “as much going forward as they would like to….”
while my nails are drying
“In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
“A man can’t ride your back unless it’s bent.”
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it. ”
above quotes Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
So how do we decide who get left out of equality? Are we willing to sell out, discard sub-group of ourselves so that the rest of us can get what we want? Is that what “playing the game” is? Personally I could never feel good about any progress that benefited me if I had to sell out someone else to get it. Does anyone have a bottom line anymore? Is there anyone with any integrity?
John
While My Nails Are Drying suggests that HRC and others who support a non-trans-inclusive ENDA are not speaking out or passively accepting trans-discrimination. But that’s a false choice: you can be for taking what you can get and pushing for trans rights. I’ve spent a ton of time not just defending HRC on this issue, but also explaining to less-understanding GLB persons why trans-inclusion is important and a fight we should be fighting.
One of the posters had a good question: why push a vote if you know it’s not going to pass? HRC actually explained this in a few places – it has to do with getting people on the record as voting for employment non-discrimination. Once a legislator has voted for something, they are predisposed to vote for it again. HRC’s strategy was to get commitments on GLB protections now, and then work to educate on the “T” issue so when the next vote comes, rather than starting from square one, you just have to move on from where you left off. It’s like in football on fourth down choosing to go for another first down rather than taking a touchdown or nothing (or settling for a field goal when you are behind by a touchdown)- sometimes, incremental steps help us get to our goal.
By the way, do I win an award for butchest Queerty post ever? J/K!
while my nails are drying
Sorry John, I don’t buy it. I think the minute the rest of us get what we want then you won’t hear a peep out of anyone when it comes to trans-discrimination. Why are we a group that has to pussy foot around when it comes to everything we do? I put those quotes from Dr. King on because somebody started doing it last week and they make sense. They are strong powerful words that showed he meant business when it came to his cause. But no, we have to play these fucking reindeer games, be whimps about everything. What little we have gotten as GLBT has been through court cases. The HRC has not gotten us anywhere. I ask intelligent, well read people all the time what they know about HRC and most of the time it is nothing. Because the HRC is weak, in its voice and in its demands. Mark my words, we will not be much further 25 years from now than we are today, at least at the federal level. What really sickens me is that the mayor of San Francisco’s voice is more powerful, full of more conviction than any or our own so called leaders.
Stager
Sorry, but I have heard for years that true trans people are a different breed and I firmly believe that. it’s not possible to include everyone, every gender or sexual minority and expect blanket acceptance. When blacks fought for civil rights, were Asians included? Same principle but different list of exclusions.
I have fought for my rights for 25 years. I welcome anyone taking up the banner, including HRC. I don’t feel any sort of filial connection to trans people. I wish them well and hope they secure their rights as well, but this one’s ours and well earned.
Mr C
Stager,
Understand something. When MLK Jr and others marched for civil Rights and the bill was passed. That billed was passed so that every human being that was not a White Male could afford the same principles and liberties such as them.
And that included, Hispanics and Asians. Now it’s not the fault of African Americans that neither group chose to March back then however it covered ALL MINORITIES and women.
So to answer your question YES, Asians were included.
The Civil Rights agenda was not a “Black thing” it was just Blacks along with Whites who led the charge.
And even though transgender is different because some people don’t claim to be gay they just claim to be different. They still deserve the same rights as everyone else and HRC should have included them.
We as Gays and Lesbians don’t like to be left behind and they shouldn’t be either.
CitizenGeek
We, as gays and lesbians, don’t expect other minorities to fight our battles for us. Unfortunately, that’s not the case with trans folks, so seems to rely totally on the gay movement. I really wish the HRC had just ignored trans people, and acknowledged that there _is_ a difference between gay people and trans people, just like the Victory Fund, or GLSEN. GLSEN and the Victory Fund have been enormously successful and I can’t help but think that has something to do with them not having to answer to angry, unrealistic transgender people.
@while my nails are drying,
Those quotes are nice, and all that talk about fighting together for a better world -sound- lovely, but please wake up and smell the coffee. Like Jaroslaw pointed out, there are people out there who really, really hate us. Many people, in fact. If we’re going to get anywhere, we can’t be aggressive and speak to others in a violent tone. That just won’t work, especially not today. We have to accept that progress will be slow from here on out. That’s not pessimism, or cynicism, that’s just reality.
while my nails are drying
Citizen Geek, your response is illustrates exactly my point of how cowardly we are. So let me see, according to your philosophy it should go something like this, “master, I’s know yous hate me and all so I’s promise to be nice and nev’r raise my voice, and I ain’t gonna ask you fo much and I’s gonna take whatsever you is willin to give me so pleeze don’t beats me sir.”
Between the end of the civil war and the 1st time a courageous black woman finally stood up and said I am not sitting on the back of the bus was what 80, 90 years? So, its been about 40 years since Stonewall and if you factor in that we are never going to refuse to sit on the back of the bus maybe we might see equality in what 200 years? Blacks were hated as well and to not stand up for ourself because we are “hated” is utterly ridiculous.
“Freedom is NEVER VOLUNTARILY given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.” Dr. M.L. King
(the above quote does not apply to LGBT’s, just be nice and then you will get what you want)
marcusb
I think what is considered the beginning of the gay rights movement was is called the “Stonewall Riots”. Maybe if they would have just taken an apple pie to the mayor and police chief of New York they would have gotten a lot further. People, we cannot rely on the likes of the “HRC” to get us anywhere, insanity is doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results.
“A riot is the language of the unheard”
“When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. “.
marcusb
Stagen, citizen geek, your a really not a whole lot different than those you claim to work against, I am Godsmacked that you consider trans-folk to be “different” than us. It actually quite disturbing.
I do not recall any great advances in human history that took place because those who were a part of these movements were afraid of those who hated them. I cannot recall any great man or woman who led such causes to be afraid either. I think the American revolution started with Boston tea party. Jesus seemed like a man who was strong and unwavering, and not only spoke for those like himself but for those that were different as well, the oppressed are the oppressed. Did Ghandi
drive out the British over cocktails? I am still just godsmacked
over the attitude toward the transgendered.
“Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality. ” Dr, M.L. King
“I’ve said this before now
You said I was childish and you’ll say it now
“Remember what I told you
If they hated me they will hate you” Sinead O’Conner.
The quotes from No. 28 are both from Dr. M. L. King
Jaroslaw
I won’t speak for Citizen Geek, but I never said we have to play nice ALL the time or that because people hate us we shouldn’t do anything but be subservient. But this post seems to be trashing the HRC because Joe Solomonese got caught up in the moment and made a promise he couldn’t keep to the Trans community. What I thought I was saying about people who hate us is that we are more likely to reach people through a friendly, non threatening approach like the HRC. This does not have to be the ONLY strategy. And I will say it again – no group will accomplish anything if they try to do everything. While it is true that no advance in human circumstances happened because the minority was afraid of the majority, it is also true that in order for change to take place, there must be a lot of background work to set the stage and that takes time. When Rosa Parks refused to sit at the back of the bus, decades of things occurred – the majority of people no longer felt Black people weren’t human or that they were only property. She could NOT have done what she did in 1880. Do you dispute that as well, While my nails are drying?
mds
When my partner and I were still living in the U.S. we were involved for a very short time with HRC. We are affluent and well educated and quite frankly we joined because some of the members of our local chapter were relentless in our recruitment.
I also knew a lot of people high on the social ladder, the straight one that is. I had one very close friend who is of extreme wealth. She is beautiful, very well known in that community, philanthropic and raises butt loads of cash for Aids charities. HRC was having a function that coincided on the same evening as an Aids charity function. Now, I was constantly asked about her by the leaders of the local HRC chapter and was “expected” to get her to attend the HRC function. She went to the Aids function because she was highly active and had been for years in this organization. Well, when I told my so called “friends” at the HRC that she was not going to attend their event they were outraged, said horrible things about her even accusing her of being anti-gay. I just looked at all of them and said you just want her because she’s rich and fits in with your idea of what this fucking wannabe group should be made up of. I was done with them after that. I can totally see how they would choose to
throw the transgendered away, cause most of the gals are just to
large to look good in Dolce and Gabbana and don’t mix well with
their social agenda. They disgust me.
CitizenGeek
I don’t think I ever said we should just be nice and then maybe people will give us our rights. Where did I say anything like that? Where did anyone else in this comment section say anything that even remotely resembles saying that?
This is typical transgender “we’re all in this together!”, impractical nonsense. The fact people like ‘While My Nails Are Drying’ and ‘Marcusb’ can only challenge my opinion, and the opinion of many others on this, is by constructing their own strawman (by claiming we’re advocating silence and subservience as a way to fight for gay rights; even though that’s blatantly not what anyone has said) and then easily offering a logical response, which of course you can do, because you’ve deliberately made our arguments out to be something they are not and easier to argue against. Grow up.
The fact is no matter how much shouting we do about trans issues people are still going to be squeamish about it. And please just face the facts: it’s going to be a lot harder to get society to accept a biological man in a dress, acting like a woman than it is for society to accept homosexuality. Sorry, that’s just the truth of it. And if you want to ignore that reality and continue quoting nice, idealogical statements from inspirational figures, but don’t act like they have a practical application in regards to the modern gay rights movement.
CitizenGeek
Oops, that last part should read like this:
“And if you want to ignore that reality and continue quoting nice, idealogical statements from inspirational figures, fine; but don’t act like they have a practical application in regards to the modern gay rights movement.
Kyler
I personally am very glad that HRC is working to get passed in Congress now what is so absolutely necessary for GLBT today. Yes T was left out after it became obvious that the bill would not pass including Trans rights, but for the love of everything GLB cannot afford to wait another year or two or three or ten for this conservative nation to accept everything at one time. I desire to fight for trans rights, but I do not desire to become crippled by pride to the extent that I will disown an organization who agrees with GLBT rights but has had to realize that the United States is so anti Trans rights that it will still say no to bill including Trans rights. Life is not fair, and Trans rights optimally would be included but there is a thing call reality and I do not desire to see another hate crime go by for the GLB unpunished simply because we got greedy as a community and held out a few more years for the T. I say pass the GLB bill and lobby like crazy for Trans rights after it passes.
mds
The United States is an absolute shit hole and that includes a lot of the gay people who live there. I have no desire to live in a country where even one oppressed minority is willing to sell out another minority. I live in Canada and that was never a consideration, among gays or straights that supported equal rights. Is everyone that is left in the states completely spiritually bankrupt? I think the problem with the gay rights movement in the United States is that they are no different than the people they say they are fighting. Just a different color of the same bullshit. Is this the way the gay leadership thinks in the United States? No wonder the world has such disdain for the U.S. I say to all of you gays and transgendered folks in the United States.
GET THE FUCK OUT! You do not have to live in a place like this.
There are places where you are considered completely equal and
you won’t have to wait until you are 100 till you see otherwise. God almighty thank you for reminding me of why I and my partner left along with so many others.
fredo777
To be honest, mds, Canada isn’t (in its entirety) exactly paradise for gays, either. From what another poster says of his experience in a particular city (sorry, but I don’t recall which at the moment), violence against gays was very much alive + that the authorities did shit all to help victims. As a result, he’s moving back to the States.
marcusb
Recently Irena Sendler, a Polish woman who saved some 2,500,00 babies by smuggling them out of the Warsaw ghetto during its Nazi occupation died. Because of her job with a government social service agency she was able freely access the ghetto. She smuggled these children out in suitcases, boxes, anyway she could figure out. Inevitably she was caught and sentenced to death, only to be saved at the last minute by the bribing of Nazi officers that were carrying her to her execution. They broke her legs and left her in the woods. One of her caretakers in her last days was one of the children that she had saved. A life well lived.
I have to agree with mds in that there is a spiritual malady amongst us when we won’t even risk loosing a tax deduction to standiing up for what is right. Especially when there are those
who have risked and given their lives for others that were not the same as themselves. I also find it shameful that the words of wise, evolved men are dismissed as irrelevant because they ask us to be something greater than we are now. These words are not irrelevant but timeless truths that have been a part of our world for thousands of years. I understand playing political games can be part of life, but sometimes we have to say enough is enough, at least I do. Selflessness is what will get us to our goal, not selfishness.
Jaroslaw
My cousin Jon lives with his partner in BC (Canada). It is much nicer there than here for Gays for sure, but there are a number of places where people are nice on the surface but he pretty sure they are homphobic underneath. I forget where, but just yesterday he emailed me there were several beatings in a queer neighborhood. (where you wouldn’t expect it.) It was in the newspapers.
mds
I bet the poster that made the negative claims lives in Vancouver. That is where I live. There was a man that was killed about 5 yrs ago in the park and the perpetrators did walk away with a slap on the wrist, but it was not because the man was gay, it was because most all the assailants were underage and in Canada, if your underage, you do get away with murder, even if its your own grandmother. Also there has been a call for more police officers in the Davie Village which is our gay neighborhood, but again, because Vancouverites are so liberal they don’t like police and protest anytime anyone suggests more be hired or put on the street. Canada is extremely liberal and it can take some getting used to and just because you make something illegal does not mean that some people cease doing it. But for all the issues that are being argued in the U.S.such as discrimination, marriage rights, hate crimes legislation, and it goes for all LGBT’s those are not issues anymore, the battle is long gone. It is a much more evolved society.
marcusb
“It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that’s pretty important. ”
Dr. M. L. King
But as citizen geek has all informed us, this old wisdom does not apply to the modern gay civil rights movement.
And citizen geek, It is so nice to know that its only the transgendered that the straight world finds “squeamish”. Maybe its you that is squeamish and has disdain for them and you are elevating that to everyone else. I am so happy to know that most are so comfortable with me as a gay man, I think I will go apply for a job in childcare or elementary education, now that straight parents won’t be squeamish about me being around their children.
CitizenGeek
“I understand playing political games can be part of life, but sometimes we have to say enough is enough, at least I do. Selflessness is what will get us to our goal, not selfishness.”
No, you don’t understand. If you did, you’d understand that “standing up and saying enough is enough” just would not work.
I am, of course, all for trans rights and I’ll do all I can (however little that may be) to assist with that particular struggle, but I am absolutely outraged that an organisation as important as the HRC is smeared by angry trans activists who think the gay movement is answerable to them, when it absolutely is not. Frankly, I’m outraged that they would halt the passing of a bill outlawing discrimination based on sexual orientation that is so desperately needed, just so they can tag gender identity on it and watch it fail. It -is- outrageous and it’s starting to grate.
CitizenGeek
“But as citizen geek has all informed us, this old wisdom does not apply to the modern gay civil rights movement.”
There you go again, completely mis-using my point. You need to stop doing that, because I’d rather prefer to discuss what we’re actually saying, instead of misapplying what I’ve said in order to keep yourself on that high horse.
Sure, some of Dr. King’s quotes could be thought of as relevant, but does his movement and whole ethnic civil rights thing have many practical implications in the modern gay rights movement. No, it doesn’t; because race and sexual orientation are very different, the social climate is different, people are different. Deal with it.
“Maybe its you that is squeamish and has disdain for them and you are elevating that to everyone else.”
Yep, you got me. I’m a transphobe. *sigh* Can you be at least a little mature with this issue?
The fact is that people ARE squeamish about trans people AND MAYBE (JUST MAYBE) THAT’S WHAT ENDA WOULDN’T HAVE PASSED WITH GENDER IDENTITY INCLUDED?!
mds
Don’t worry Joe, I mean citizen geek, you’ll find another job if the HRC goes under, just keep your chin up!
And how fucking dare you have the arrogance to declare that all
people are squeamish with trans people. I worked as a volunteer counsellor here in Vancouver with transgendered youth and young adults and let me tell you that they are twice or three times the person you will ever be. It is finally out. This is exactly why the American Gay movement is so behind and will stay that way, because people like you are to spiritually bankrupt to attract anything positive and empowering to the movement. You have affirmed my position that America is a shit hole. And just because you are standing up for a bigoted position does not make mine immature. You smell just like America did right after 9/11, when anyone who stood up for what was right and true was labeled as a traitor or unpatriotic. The right smells like shit
and now the left, thanks for taking its mask off. The only thing more disgusting than a bigot is a gay one.
troy
I’m proud to be an Americun war least I no I’m free………….America, a shit hole……duh! Americans can’t even backpack around Europe anymore unless they wearing a Canadian Cap or t-shirt and have Canadian stickers on their gear. I’m proud to be an Americum war least I no I’m free…………
CitizenGeek
“And how fucking dare you have the arrogance to declare that all people are squeamish with trans people.”
Oh, here we go with the faux-outrage yet again. I never said ALL people were squeamish about trans people, but you’re living in a fantasy land if you think the majority of people aren’t a little freaked out by it.
“I worked as a volunteer counsellor here in Vancouver with transgendered youth and young adults and let me tell you that they are twice or three times the person you will ever be.”
No wonder everyone is so afraid to discuss this issue; it’s because of melodramatic, inflammatory people like you.
“It is finally out. This is exactly why the American Gay movement is so behind and will stay that way, because people like you are to spiritually bankrupt to attract anything positive and empowering to the movement.”
Yep, it’s MY fault the gay movement in America hasn’t achieved everything yet. MY fault, and not the fault of the powerful Christian right, or the social conservatives or the trans activists that halt and cripple important steps forward like ENDA, only to go on and tear the movement in two. It’s all MY fault and I do so sincerely apologise. *Sigh*
“And just because you are standing up for a bigoted position does not make mine immature. You smell just like America did right after 9/11, when anyone who stood up for what was right and true was labeled as a traitor or unpatriotic.”
Can you please -read- what I write, instead of pretending to be outraged and spewing your moronic, misplaced, vitriol? Where did I call you a traitor, or a heretic to the movement for your views? I don’t think I did; you, on the other hand, have branded me a bigot, blamed me for the slow progress of the gay rights movement in the US, said that I confirmed your belief that the US was a bad country and that I’ve unmasked an entire political stance as being as bad as another because of my views. Maybe you should read your own nonsense, too.
“The right smells like shit and now the left, thanks for taking its mask off. The only thing more disgusting than a bigot is a gay one.”
I’m a bigot because I don’t want trans rights getting in the way of important gay rights legislation? I’m a bigot because I acknowledge that transgender people and gay people are – gasp! – different? Grow up, PLEASE.
Am I racist because I don’t think the gay movement should fight against racial inequality? Am I an ageist because I think the gay movement should not fight against age-based discrimination? Am I a sexist for thinking the gay rights movement and the feminist movement should not share the same political platform? By your logic, I guess I am. Funny that, because I never thought I was …
*Cue a theatrical rant from MDS that totally ignores all of my points, and is basically just an excuse to call people with legitimate opinions that oppose his/her own ‘bigots’.
troy
I think citzen geek don’t take kinely to bein called on his she-it.
he’s jus a typ’cal Americun, look’n round hemself ta see whose needs to be fucked o’er to git ahead. Thats jus the maricun way, ain’t it? Who givs a she-it bout them ol drag queens a anyway?
I’m proud to be an americun war leest I knows I’m free…………..
CitizenGeek
I’m Irish. I’m not looking to “fuck over” transgender people, not at all. I support trans rights 100%, I just don’t support them being tied to the vastly -different- issue of gay rights.
michael
Did I miss something? Has there been an anti discrimination employment bill passed on the federal level? I did not know that! I am so glad that we got rid of those drag gueens cause I guess that has been what has been keeping our Senate and House and President from giving us our equal rights. And all this time we have been thinking that they did not love we gay folk! Its just those damn trannies they hate!
CitizenGeek
Hah! I’m guessing you’re not a fan of reading, replying, rationalism or basic logic, Michael, yes?
michael
I just agree with mds in that these are human beings we are talking about, not pawns on a chess board and I admire the principles of love more than the calculations and manipulations of the ego. Your principles may make some sense above my neck but when I go below they leave me feeling sick and horrible. My head has never been able to tell me who I am and what is right, but my heart and gut never fails me, so thats what I will follow. Its also sad that you resort to slurs and insults when you don’t think your winning. My guess is that you were quite bullied at one point in your life and now you resort to those tactics because you were convinced then that is where the power really is.
“Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek. ”
Dr. M.L. King Jr.
CHURCHILL-Y
“but you’re living in a fantasy land if you think the majority of people aren’t a little freaked out by it.”-CitizenGeek
Starting with transphobes like you.
CHURCHILL-Y
MICHAEL: Don’t trouble yourself by idiots like him, what do you expect from someone who thinks like this:
“does his movement and whole ethnic civil rights thing have many practical implications in the modern gay rights movement. No, it doesn’t; because race and sexual orientation are very different, the social climate is different, people are different. Deal with it.”-CitizenGeek
He’s not worth it.
michael
What binds we all LGBT’s together is the fact that our sexualities differ from the majority. We are all, more often than not, ostracized, ridiculed, condemned, abused and sometimes we even
are killed for no other reason than this. It is amazing to me how
a member of this very group could do to that to one of its subsets. The one lesson in life I feel that I have learned from my experience of being gay is that hatred and condemnation of any group of individual based upon nothing more than who or what they are is the most hateful, cruel and evil thing we humans can do to each other. Because I have felt the fires of hatred and fear myself I feel that i have given a fast track to love and compassion for all others. I just hate the thoughts that some transgendered person would read this thread and feel that the only group that they thought they were a welcomed part of would turn their backs on them in a heart beat. Maybe the HRC
should change its name to the GRC gay human rights commision
because obviously being human is not enough. Thanks Churchill but its not really Citzen Geek I am concerned with, its those who
read what he says. Others need to know that not all gay people think this way.
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it” M.L King Jr.
Would it not be sad if these words were no longer true.
CitizenGeek
This is ridiculous. How on Earth can you two idiots say that I’m calling for the ostracizing of trans people and not back it up with a single quite from me? How can you say I hate trans people without a single quote? I’m pretty sure you are both not very familiar with basic debating, but surely you both understand that backing up inflammatory statements like that is kind of necessary?
“My guess is that you were quite bullied at one point in your life and now you resort to those tactics because you were convinced then that is where the power really is.”
Ah, so you’re -that- kind of debater? The one who avoids the actual topic at hand, takes to smearing the one who holds the opposite opinion and then makes a sweeping ‘guess’ about a person’s entire life from 5 or 6 comments they’ve made on one particular issue. I’m having to repeat this a lot in this thread: Grow up. Thanks.
I like how people like Michael completely confuse the issue with petty insults instead of concentrating on any of my arguments.
In any case, I’ll just reiterate it: I like trans people, they’re great, they deserve protection under the law and all that. But is it fair that they would cripple a desperately-needed employment non-discrimination act for gay people just because some gay organisations went with realism and ditched gender identity because they knew it wouldn’t pass that way? Just -listen- to what I’m saying.
And this brings up the larger issue of whether trans issues are gay issues. I don’t think they are. Does that make me transphobic? No, it doesn’t.
I have a question for you Michael, is the hugely successful Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund a transphobic organization? How about GLSEN, who have made huge progress in terms of education? Or The Point Foundation? None of those organisations support the trans movement, instead they focus on gay issues; so by the logic of the pro-trans people, those organisations are transphobic? I _KNOW_ I won’t get an answer to that, because you are unable to answer it and you know those organisations are doing fantastic work and are NOT transphobic. But you’d never admit it.
Jaroslaw
Michael, Churchill-y, and others – your compassion is commendable, but if one is starving a half a loaf is better than no loaf at all. Do you get that?
And there is nothing in the postings of CG that show he is a transphobe just because he doesn’t feel trans issues are Gay issues. So if “alternative sexuality” is all that is required to be a member of LGBTQ – then is NAMBLA in?
You don’t think the majority of people are squeamish? Talk to your average hetero about Fisting, Golden Showers, Slave and Master etc. And I already know what you’re going to say – they do it too. Guess what? They are not struggling for their rights – WE ARE.
Once again – half a loaf is better than none.
Troy
Citizen Geek,
Your a pretty disgusting character. You resort to calling people names like “idiot” shows that your thinking is not quite as developed as you would like to tout. You are abusive and your inability to control your rage shows your real character. While you may have some rational points to offer you make me suspect of the people who hold your beliefs. Its funny just how nasty you are willing to get with your own kind while urging that we manipulate our actions to appease the rest of the masses. I really think you should retire being the spokesperson for your point of view because you do not have the skills nor decorum to
be an effective debater. You also put a lot of energy behind trying to convince us of how much more the transgendered are hated compared to just gays, so I doubt that you could really care less about their plight.
P.S. Michael, MDS, Churchilly, whether or not I completely agree
that your position on this subject would be effective I have
to say that I do agree morally and it is good to know that
there are those who strive for the highest ideals and realize
that until we are all free that none of us are free.
CitizenGeek
When other people are twisting my words, trying to make me look like a bigot when I am anything but, then those people -are- “idiots” and I will call them so. It’s funny that you only take issue with my debating, but the 3 or 4 others who’ve made in-depth personal attacks are free from anything negative words from you. Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact you value their opinion over mine? Just in case you missed that: The only reason you are singling me out, is because you disagree with me, and in order to make my points go away, you’re attacking me on debating skills. Nice try.
“You also put a lot of energy behind trying to convince us of how much more the transgendered are hated compared to just gays, so I doubt that you could really care less about their plight.”
Eh, I’m not trying to convince anyone that transgendered people are more “hated” than gay people. Such is plainly obvious to anyone with half a brain. It’s the reason ENDA wouldn’t pass with transgender included. It’s the reason there’s not one actual transgender person on TV. Or in movies, etc. That’s why there is only transgender person elected to public office, while there are two gay members in congress and hundreds more at the state level. It’s a fact, not a personal opinion. Of course, it’s unfortunate and I hate that society has that kind of ignorant attitude to trans people but that’s the way it is.
Trans acceptance, as we can all see, is not linked to gay acceptance. If it was, I wouldn’t have been able to say what I just said about trans representation in society. That’s another reason I think both movements would work better separately.
Stop twisting and turning everything I say in order to make my entirely logical point of view seem like it’s xenophobic and unfair. It’s practical and realistic is what it is. We can see the results of both working much more effectively when separate. The National Center for Transgender Equality secured a hearing at congress on trans issues, the first of it’s kind while GLSEN and the Victory Fund have been enormously successful working solely as gay issues-only organisations.
I think it’s a sweeping endorsement of my ideas that those who oppose them can offer no kind of reasonable, focussed retort and instead take to toting hopelessly idealistic ideals of compassion.
CitizenGeek
Damn typos 🙁
“That’s why there is only transgender person elected to public office, while there are two gay members in congress and hundreds more at the state level”
That should read: “That’s why there are no transgender people elected to public office, while there are two gay members in congress and hundreds more at the state level”
ontrac
Okay, here we go. If we are gonna put out the ugly truth on the table, lets not half ass it. It has been said that the general public cannot stomach the trannies. It has also been suggested that we gays get our rights first, then fight help fight for theirs. Oh, please, lets not delude ourselves. We gays are the most narcissistic group of people out there. We don’t even give a shit about each other much less some guy in a ball gown. We would not even vote if meant missing a sale at Saks. If and when we get the anti-employment discrimination bill passed there is not going to be some big letter writing campaign demanding trans rights. They will be on their own while we are at the gym cruising the hot guy and tearing down the one with the fat ass. So lets be straight up about all this, the assholes that are saying we should throw them under the bus need to just come out and admit thats what they are campaigning for because if you see that the public has such disdain for the transgendered, and I do agree with that, then be men enough to admit that we gays are not gonna do shit for anyone but ourselves. Thats probably why so many people don’t like and respect us, but we are what we are. And yeah, I know there are a few among us that might be a little more evolved, but they are nowhere near the majority.
seitan-on-a-stick
Have we asked the trans community what they want in the form of equal rights and dignity? how they identify whether it be heterosexual or other? Perhaps, the trans-movement might want to unhitch their wagon to Gay identifiers and fight for Heterosexual acceptance if that is how they want to live their life fully and without prejudice or forever be associated as Gay.
ontrac
And another thing, while I agree that citizen geek is far from the top of the human food chain he is unfortunately probably right in his assessments. Its a shitty world we live in and those who are willing to jump in the sewer are the ones who win the prize. And citizen geek, stop defending the fact your a card carrying asshole,
I am sure its what makes you successful in life.
CitizenGeek
Ontrac,
I really dislike such assessments of the gay male community, largely because they are, frankly, untrue. Sure, some gays are like that, but not all or even the majority. The gays that are politically active are definitely not in the bitchy, couldn’t-care-less category that you outline. So you’re right in saying that subset doesn’t care about transgender people, but you are completely wrong in saying the gay movement as a whole does not. It’s silly to use an overt, exaggerated generalization to justify your vision of gay people not caring about trans issues once we’ve gotten our own rights. I know that gay movement leaders care deeply about their trans allies, and so do I. Personally, I won’t be happy until trans people have all the rights they deserve and I know I’m not alone in that.
It’s important to separate the gay issues and trans issues for a whole number of reasons, though, and I’ve spent most of my time in this particular comments section outlining why.
“And citizen geek, stop defending the fact your a card carrying asshole,
I am sure its what makes you successful in life.”
I don’t understand the “card carrying” part, could you explain it please?
CitizenGeek
Oh wait, are you talking about me being an HRC card carrier? Well, I’m not. In fact, I’ve never once donated to them, but that’ll probably change soon.
mds
This morning I went stepped out onto my terrace. Before me I see the most breathtaking view of where the ocean meets the mountains, I see people running, walking and roller blading on the seawall and watch the Beamers and the Benzes pull out of the parking garage. I look to my right and see the construction of new residential mid-rise, it is being built to house those who are economically disadvantaged, beyond that is the cities gayest neighborhood and I am overcome with gratitude. I have been given the privilege of living in an enlightened society. A society that believes the poor deserve the same view as the rich, a society that passes laws that protect everyone who is considered different and I realize that after 3 years I am not the same person that I was when I came. I agree with you ontrac only partially. Not all of the world is a bad place where people only think of themselves. I live in one of those places and I thank God in heaven for the privilege I have been given and I thank Canada and Vancouver as well.
troy
citizen G- save your money as I don’t think anyones needs to see your I.D. to prove what you are. You can smell you a mile away.
CitizenGeek
Um, I honestly don’t understand what all this “card carrying” and “I.D.” stuff means. So if you could explain it to me, Troy or Ontrac, the insult would probably work better 😉
Also, can I just add that I am shocked, totally and utterly, that you, Troy, just made yet another cheap shot instead of actually countering all of may apparently evil ideas. Yep, totally shocked.
/sarcasm
@MDS,
It’s nice that you live in an accepting city (though you shouldn’t kid yourself, Vancouver is not perfect), but most of the world is not like that and I wish you’d understand that fact.
fredo777
Hey, CitizenG. “Card-carrying” is like a slang way of emphasizing that someone is a bona fide (something or other). For instance, by calling you a “card-carrying” asshole, OnTrac was basically saying that you are an official member of the “asshole” club (i.e. card-carrying). Hope that helps.
troy
I don’t know about most of the world but I know one thing, as an earlier poster aptly put it, America is a shit hole. And I doubt citizen G that your any authority on Vancouver, it does not seem
like your kinda place. I have friends there and duh, nothing is perfect but you can count on the fact that America is probably 25 years behind, if they ever even get there, which I doubt. Also,
Vancouver is most always in the top 3 cities in the world in which to live, its rivals usually being Zurich and Geneva. MDS, you are very fortunate, but its seems like you know that.
while my nails are drying
Boys, boys! I leave this post alone for 1 day and your all clawing each others eyes out! I love it! I think what people hate, including most gay guys, is our effeminacy. But like it or not, deny it in yourself or not we are not referred to as queens and did not earn the name “gay” because we are so damn butch. These transgendered souls have gone the full way to what the rest of us are running from and we hate in them what we hate in ourselves, so yes your gonna see them sent to the gallows first. You queens can try to distance yourself all you want from these folks, you can try to deny your anything like them, but girlfriends, self hatred is what holds us all back. And I hate to tell you, we are not getting any anti-discrimination law anytime soon. We are living in a corporate world and when these types of things come up in front of shareholders they usually vote us down and usually by huge margins. We can scapegoat on these trannies all day long but its not them that is keeping us unequal, its everybody else in this country. If you want equal rights in your lifetime then move to Spain or Canada, cause Jesus and money reigns supreme in this country and thats who really decides our fate. Now go on fighting without me cause I got to apply my topcoat.
CitizenGeek
Oh no, it’s nothing about self-hatred with me. I love effeminate, queeny gays and I’m pretty much a walking, incredibly camp, stereotype myself. Like, if you met me, chances are you’d be 70% or 80% sure I was gay. So it’s not about that, at all. And like I’ve already said, I have no problem with transgender people, I think they’re just as great as most other people, and I admire their courage and appreciate their struggle.
However, I just think that both movements would work better separately, because like I’ve already said, transgender-ism and homosexuality are two very different things. Our aims are totally different and all evidence seems to point to gay issues-only organisations being a lot more successful than LGBT organisations.
It’s just my two cents. So if those select few want to continue calling me a transphobe, transgender-hating person, fine, but I think you’d do better calling out the actual transphobes in this world.
Lizzie (greeneyed fem)
What I don’t understand is how so many people can NOT understand that “gender identity and expression” protections don’t just protect transgender/transsexual individuals.
They protect effeminate men (gay and straight) and masculine women (gay and straight). They would have protected Darlene Jespersen, a straight woman who refused to wear makeup on the job and whose firing was upheld by higher courts. They’re good for EVERYONE.
Also, the arguments about what LGB folks have in common with T folks often forget that these categories aren’t exclusive: gay transmen and lesbian transwomen do exist. And how can you say to someone who has lived and fought for 20 years in the lesbian community that she no longer has any affinity with it because she decides to transition?
If, as a gay man, you’ve ever enjoyed a drag show, then you should realize that acceptance of alternative “gender identities” is part of the struggle for the entire LGBT/queer population.
Jaroslaw
I truly hesitate to wade in here to respond to you Lizzie, since a number of the posters here refuse to read what is written but here goes:
How can people not understand (your first sentence) ? Easy – we are not talking about the same thing. Some people feel because we can’t accomplish 100% (in this case including Trans people in a non dicrimination bill) that we shouldn’t do anything. Other people feel we should accept less than 100%, which by the way is what usually happens in getting new laws passed involving great social change – and the compromisers are called haters and worse on this post.
Darlene Jespersen is unrelated to this issue, from what I read. She lost a sex discrimination case because the court felt requiring females to wear makeup (while prohibiting the male employees from wearing make up) was an equal burden to allowing women to have long hair and men had to have hair lengths above the collar. What she was fired for was not following work rules. There is no place I know of you can refuse to follow work rules and expect not to get fired. Just for reference, my job is done entirely on the telephone where before we used to see the public yet we still have a formal dress code. (even though we never see the public). AND I have a union – which advises employees to always follow the rules unless it endangers your health and file a grievance, while continuing to follow the rules.
Lizzie (greeneyed fem)
Jardslaw: Thanks for the response. I think what drives me crazy about the argument that “we should accept less than 100%, which by the way is what usually happens in getting new laws passed” is that NO LAW was passed. This huge, ugly situation that brought out the worst in a lot of people and was smeared all over the media was for NOTHING. And the Democratic leadership KNEW Bush would veto it, so what was the big fucking rush? This week, they’ve held hearings on the hill about workplace discrimination and transgender issues — why couldn’t they have put off the vote until after that panel? I can understand all the ballyhoo about compromise IF there was a chance in hell of this actually becoming law under this administration, but there isn’t. So why the rush?
And from what I understand about gender identity protections, they would have given Darlene Jespersen another legal path to take her employers to court on (that the workplace rules were discriminatory and against the law) instead of having to rely on sex discrimination. I could be wrong, though.
Jaroslaw
I can’t understand the rush to vote knowing Bush would veto it, but the issue here is that some feel HRC & Joe Solomonese are dirt because they backed down from a promise. While I understand and I would feel let down if I was Trans, I also understand we don’t help ourselves boycotting HRC.
As for Darlene Jespersen, I don’t think gender protections would have helped either. I am not a lawyer, but I did work at one for a long time typing stuff and I got a pretty good feel for it. Not wearing make up is not “controversial” in the same way a man wearing a dress is or something like that. Nor do I see how not wearing make up is a form of “gender expression.” The court clearly found that equal burdens were imposed on male and female employees for grooming and the employer wanted female employees to wear make up. I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but with Trans folk beaten and killed and Gay folks of all stripes having all kinds of serious problems, it hardly seems worth getting fired over for not wearing make up. I’m sure she could have kept it to a minimum. If there’s something I’m missing here, please let me know.