As expected, Geoff Kors’ Equality California decided it’s going to wait until 2012 to mount a Prop 8 repeal, the organization just announced via conference call. Funny, because Rick Jacobs’ Courage Campaign just announced it’s moving forward with a 2010 effort.
Why the difference in strategy? If you’ve been following along at home, you know these two groups don’t see eye-to-eye. Equality California’s Kors (pictured, right) says they’ve been listening to supporters on which call to make, but really it’s been a bunch of political strategists telling them what to do. (That’s not necessarily a bad thing.) They’ve also reached their decision in parallel with umbrella group Prepare To Prevail, made up of the gays of colors organizations API Equality-LA, HONOR PAC, Barbara Jordan / Bayard Rustin Coalition.
The Courage Campaign, meanwhile, appears to be taking a much more democratic approach, doing what its members (and their dollars) say.
With EC’s just-released “Winning Back Marriage” plan, they’ve outlined their wait-for-better timing approach. Massachusetts marriage import Marc Soloman lists some bullet points here about the decision, like how younger supporters will come out stronger in 2012 when there’s a presidential election, and how other civil liberties advocates say they need more time to build support, and how nobody wants to give money in 2010 and 2012.
But none of that is stopping the CC from mounting its effort. The org set tomorrow as a deadline to raise the rest of the $100k needed to see if 2010 was a viable option. They already succeeded. Writes Jacobs (pictured, right) in an email to supporters: “I am shocked and amazed to tell you that Courage Campaign members raised $77,905 yesterday, beating our deadline by two days. You read that right — $77,905 in just 24 hours, for a grand total of $135,998 that we will immediately invest in research, polling and focus groups to repeal Prop 8.” Pretty incredible stuff. But as critics will point out, that’s still just a fraction of what’s needed to actually launch and maintain a repeal effort.
And, as EC’s Kors unintentionally points out in his own email to supporters, just because it’s possible doesn’t mean it’s plausible: “Waiting indefinitely to return to the ballot is not an option, but we must be strategic in selecting the election that gives us the best opportunity to permanently secure the freedom to marry. For the first time in our state’s history, our community will determine the timing of an election for our equality instead of having to defend ourselves at an election chosen by our opponents.”
So as Prop 8 repeal advocates choose sides between the 2010 and 2012 strategy, all we can hear is the National Organization for Marriage and the Mormon Church, happy as shit they, too, don’t have to dip too far into their coffers to protect themselves in 2010.
(Photo: Rex Wockner)
Mark Snyder
EQCA made the right decision. A 38 month campaign gives us time to build the kind of long-lasting, cross-movement coalitions we need to support the health of our community and win more battles in the future.
Yann J
EQCA made A decision, and CC made another. Time only will tell which one is right. In the meantime, I will continue supporting the group that I believe is actually working for me (in this case, the CC). If we want to have any credibility in claiming that denying us marriage equality is denying us a basic right, then we need to be sending that message out there by putting it on the ballot as soon as possible (in this case 2010).
as a final note, I’d like to echo the fact that NOM and all their conservative allies must thrive on our division. Let’s not give them that chance. If you think we should go in 2012, that’s fine, but you can still try to support the effort for 2010, even if it doesn’t come from your favorite gay organization.
Let’s keep up the fight!
Yann
Cam
Ok, thank you for letting me know that I need to start sending money to the Courage Campaign and stop sending it to EQCA right now. If they want to wait until 2012 to try, then if the CC fails this round they can get my donations starting in 2011.
Michael Phillips
I just cancelled my email subscription to Equality California. These idiots screwed up the prop 8 campaign and now want us to believe they have the correct plan. We need to have this question on the ballot every year possible until this law is repealed. Waiting until 2012 may be the most cost effective approach but it is wrong….
The only thing the right wingers love more than God is money and the more we make them spend the faster we will LGBT rights once and for all..
M Shane
The logistical disadvantage of waiting until 2012 is that gay politics will get mixed up with the presidential election, which will spread gay people with any political interest all over the place, to say nothing about the voters who will undoubtedly be a in a mess trying to think things through.
Without a doubt, the Mormons will be well prepared To mess things up at any time. They have, relative to gays, a virtually unreserved amount of cash. Timewise, in terms of having more time 2012 would be better, but for the election.
It’s hard to say how long the momentum will last. If there was a cure for AIDS, I think that many young gay people’s sentiment would shift a lot re: marriage.
Lloyd Baltazar
Cowards! Waiting for 2012 delays marriage equality. You know what message that sends to the Gays? It says that marriage equality is not important enough to fight for it now. It doesn’t matter if the old voters die off, those religious nutjobs will continue to fight and oppose same-sex marriage if we don’t act now.
If EQCA does not want to fight now, then DONT.There are other gay right advocates groups that are willing to deliver the fight for 2010. NO MORE WAIT! THE TIME IS NOW!!
Tim C.
I am with Cam. EQCA hits me up for money every nano-second, but are going to wait THREE YEARS to really do anything with it. Not with my dime.
Lloyd Baltazar
STOP donating your money to EQCA if all they want to do is delay marriage equality. Give it to Courage Campaign who has the BALLS to deliver Gay and Lesbian rights in the 2010 ballot. THREE FUCKING YEARS? Are you kidding me? We came so CLOSE. Take out those rainbow flags and get back on the street… we have so much at stake and being WIMPY isn’t solving the problem.
GAYS, DONT BE COWARDS!!! Put on your Prada boots and show California we can win this battle for Marriage Equality! California is the standard bearer for social liberalism. This is the time to fight! FIGHT NOW!
JakiChan
@Mark Snyder Well hey, if they showed they had a frakking clue then maybe I’d believe them. They want to wait 3 years because they’re stupid. Didn’t they notice that Hispanics and blacks are socially conservative? And yeah, they’ll be out to frak us in 2012 just like in 2008. It’s a massive plan for fail.
Geoff
“EQCA completely agrees it’s critical for all of the organizations working to restore the freedom to marry to work together. We have been talking with the Courage Campaign about the best ways to coordinate our efforts and ensure that the work we are both doing helps to build a cohesive movement, even if our tactics differ. The most important thing is getting the full community to work together. We have always worked in coalition with other organizations and grassroots leaders and will continue to do so.
Our 18 field organizers across the state are working day in and day out until we win marriage back. They are going door-to-door in communities where the majority of residents voted to ban marriage for same-sex couples, doing the difficult work of changing hearts and minds. Should a ballot initiative qualify for 2010, their efforts will help to win support that will help move an initiative closer to a win.
We are working with leading community of color LGBT organizations who believe that 2010 is too soon to do the critical work needed to move voters as well as organizations who want to move forward in 2010. We are working on the ground and doing research with Honor PAC, API Equality, Jordon Rustin Coalition, NGLTF, Vote for Equality, Bienestar, the Courage Campaign, Love Honor & Cherish, Marriage Equality USA and many other organizations in communities throughout the state doing field work as well as message research and development. We feel it is critical to do this research. The more information we have at our disposal, the more we can chart the right course for the next campaign, regardless of the year in which it is held.
We hope other organizations in the community will continue to work with us and with each other. This is the only way for us to restore marriage.
Regards,
Geoff Kors
Chance
Yawn. What’s the story, here? Whether it’s 2010 or 2012, neither one has an actual strategy here.
What year do we fight for actual equality? Maybe in 2020 we’ll start trying to convince people that their bibles lied to them, and there’s no reason to hate us. Or do we wait til 2022?
After all, it’s not like gay kids are committing suicide every day because religion tells them they’re defective. Right? So what’s another decade or two?
Michael Phillips
Geoff,
Research my ***. We don’t need to wait or more importantly pay consultants for research. We know the right wing will fight us. We know that they will do everything in their power to keep gay Americans from sharing in the American dream and achieving marriage equality.
Spend money on showing Californians and all Americans that LGBT people are people just like everyone else who want nothing more than to be treated under law the same as everyone else. Spend money showing LGBT Californians dropping the kids off at school, shopping at the grocery store, show LGBT Californians trying to figure out how they will pay for college for their children or how they will afford health care. These are the things that will show the average Californian that we are all the same in spirit and have the same dreams of life, liberty and happiness.
Since you responded I’d like to tell you one other thing. During the prop 8 campaign the other side aired commercials saying things like children would be forced to learn about gay marriage or churches would be required to perform gay marriages. Not once did I see a commercial showing real gay people telling their story or some college professor (I’m sure we know one) asking “What’s wrong with children learning that all people should be treated fairly or that DISCRIMNATION is wrong regardless of who the recipient is.
In the end keep your timeline; spend money needlessly on consultants to do the research. At least you’ll be stimulating someone’s economy and some good may come from that. But this announcement and your past performance show you still don’t get it…
Dick Mills
The smart money tells us that the longer we wait, more of those in the over 65 category today will no longer be there to vote against us. Especially with cuts in CA to social services that tend to prolong the life expectancy of the aged. I know that sounds cold and heartless, but it is simply an honest assessment. Also, the more younger voters that we can mobilize to vote, the better our chances are. Both of which would suggest that a 2012 run might be more productive.
Whenever we do go back to the voters, I would hope that we will become as over aggressive in fighting for our rights as the lying liars are at opposing them. We know that they are ruthless, cold and calculating. And that they are not in any averse to twisting the facts into a lie that they can use against us. We also need to stop relying solely on others to defend us, and start fighting for ourselves.
When our opponents put pictures of children attending a same-sex marriage in their ads, and twist that into an evil lie, we need to reassure voters that the parents of each one of those children gave permission for their child to be there, and that many of the parents were there themselves. And, that those who oppose us are not interested in protecting children, or the protecting the rights of parents to raise their children according to their standards. But that they are only interested in imposing their myopic view onto everyone, including those parents. The truth always benefits us, and their lies should never be allowed to stand as a detriment.
If we become as aggressively engaged as the lying liars that oppose us, then the timing is really an issue. If not, then the lying liars will always win. And in my mind, I have more confidence that Courage Campaign would be the more intrepidly aggressive group. And in my opinion, the one most likely to be successful.
If we really fight and lose, then at least we put up a fight. And that’s the fight that I welcome.
Lloyd Baltazar
COWARDS. If you dont want to fight, then DONT. You can make up all the reason you want but it the end it only means one thing—-you dont have the BALLS to fight Prop 8 right NOW.
If EQCA doesn’t want to fight then FINE. Let other groups do the job and put the bill on the 2010 ballot. Me & My partner will support and fight for it all the way. Damn fagwimps.
Dick Mills
One correction:
If we become as aggressively engaged as the lying liars that oppose us, then the timing is really less of an issue.
Lloyd Baltazar
I JUST SPOKE with the Admin [Aidan] from CourageCampaign here in Los Angeles, California and he personally reassured me that Courage Campaign is FIRM AND DECIDED on putting the Marriage Equality Bill for 2010. The Chairman, Rick Jacobs is currently doing interviews for the NYTimes, LATimes, SacBee and many other journals confirming that we are PUSHING FOR 2010 Bill Ballot!
We should all support and FIGHT for 2010! Dont be COWARDS like the EQCA. This fight is now or NEVER! DONATE YOUR FUNDS TO COURAGE CAMPAIGN!
Mark Snyder
@JakiChan: Didn’t YOU notice that the coalition of organizations serving LGBTQ people of color has endorsed building coalitions so that we can win in 2012?
QueerTOday
“We acknowledge that there is an angry mobilization around same-sex marriage. However, we regret that there is a debate about the proper time to have a ballot measure rather than a debate about how to reconcile glaring problems in the movement and our communities. On the one hand, there is an energized marriage movement that seeks to raise tens of millions of dollars and organize thousands of activists around same-sex marriage. On the other hand, our local queer institutions and organizations are facing economic problems and crises. Services and organizations that provide needs for HIV-positive people (a significant portion of our community), youth (especially homeless youth), trans people, people of color, the elderly, lower-income people and other marginalized people have had their funding cut or have seen funding decline. As a particularly stark example, recently, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger cut funding for a series of social programs including healthcare and HIV/AIDS funding.” Read the whole statement on QueerToday.com.
Prof. Donald Gaudard
The latest Field poll (the most reliable California poll) just announced that 49% support gay marriage and 44% are opposed to gay marriage. By 2010, the support will only increase. On the 2010 ballot will be Barbara Boxer for Senator. Barbara is a strong supporter of gay marriage and will encourage her supporters to support gay marriage. The 2 probable Democratic candidates for governor both support gay marriage, and they will encourage their supporters to support gay marriage. The voter turn out should be relatively high with both the Senatorial and Governorship on the ballot. We made numerous mistakes in 2008, but we are smart enough to have learned from our mistakes and not make them again (particularly by hiring people who don’t know what they are doing and who are in over their head — see 2008 Southern California “leader” who took a vacation in the middle of the campaign.)
In 2012, we’ll have the presidential election with Obama being opposed to gay marriage.
SFNative
@Chance:
Chance, what do you propose we should do?
Andrew W
@Prof. Donald Gaudard: It’s not “politics” professor – it’s “beliefs.” 60% of people 18-30 support Marriage Equality because they do not have “religion.” If you look at the ages from 18-65 you realize support shrinks with age and that reflects the “beliefs” of those voters. The older you are – the more seriously you take religion.
The silver lining to the cloud of hatred and discrimination in the World is simply this: people are letting go of religion.
Religion is the only thing that makes homosexuals wrong. Religion has branded us “wrong, sinners and deviant.” Those beliefs are based on Biblical LIES. Religion was the biggest support of slavery and based that support on biblical LIES. MLK referred to those lies and rejected them. Gays should do the same or no equality.
Anyone who supports religion – in any way – sanctions the hatred of homosexuals. Young people do not support religion.
Chance
@SFNative: Thanks for asking! Instead of tip-toeing around religion, as the established gay inc groups seem to prefer, we should confront them.
1) Start with supposedly gay-friendly churches and hold their feet to the fire. If UCC, the Episcopals, or the Lutherans want to market themselves as gay friendly and welcoming, then we need to insist that they make a formal declaration rejecting the doctrine and scripture that homosexuality is sinful and wrong. From the local church all the way up to the denomination leaders. That would mean a hell of a lot more than the token of just letting gays join the clergy. And if they refuse to support us, fully and completely, then we don’t support them.
2) Hold politicians accountable. Almost all politicians are religious, and their beliefs are shaped by their churches. If they won’t make a declaration that there’s nothing wrong with gays, no matter what the bible/torah/qur’an says, then they don’t get our support either.
3) Use all the money we’ve been throwing at HRC and EQCA to fund a media blitz. Ads on primetime with LGBT people saying they’re LGBT and they’re not wrong. Throw in some funny and endearing ads. Religion has defined us with a lie for 2000 years. Let’s not wait another 2000 before we rebrand ourselves, hmm?
4) Tell everyone. If you’re going to be out, be out. Tell people that there is nothing wrong with being gay.
If we change the definition of gay, it will do a hell of a lot more than any amount of lobbying. Lobbying politicians who are just going to go home and pray.
Brian
Since Equality-California is waiting until 2012 – Don’t send them any money. They can close shop and save money for 18 months.
Schteve
@Prof. Donald Gaudard: Field is a notorious overestimate when it comes to same-sex marriage support. Before last November, they were polling Proposition 8 losing for a number of months.
What you have to say about the governor is right, though. The Democratic candidate will be making it a big issue. And even if young people won’t show out in as big of numbers as if it were a presidential election, neither will some minority groups that are slightly more opposed to same-sex marriage.
B.
Schteve wrote, “Donald Gaudard: Field is a notorious overestimate when it comes to same-sex marriage support. Before last November, they were polling Proposition 8 losing for a number of months.”
I went to a fundraiser for “No on Eight” and a person involved with the campaign stated that, when they ran the sort of ads they expected to see past focal groups, they found that opposition to Proposition Eight was easily changed. There was a critical funding gap which allowed the “Yes on Eight” side to outgun the “No on Eight” side in the media for a few weeks, and that was part of the reason Proposition Eight won.
The polls were accurate to within their margin of error, but only measured beliefs at the time the polls were taken and did not measure how easily those beliefs would be influenced by advertising. The advantage the “Yes on Eight” side had was due in part to complacency – many weren’t willing to give large contributions to oppose Proposition Eight when the poll numbers looked so favorable. Once the problem was obvious to these potential donors, it was too late to undo the damage.
QueerTOday
@Brian: I didnt’ hear anyone say they are waiting, I heard preparing and strategizing. There is a big difference.
Brian
@QueerTOday: Oh, yeah – I forgot about their SALARIES. The longer we wait, the more they get paid. Silly me.
James III
I @Chance: I like YOUR Plan. These people who keep referring to “younger people voting in our favor” forget to mention it is because they don’t have religion.
Let’s start the fight. I have straight friends who claim to be religious, but they aren’t very serious about. They also support equality. My parents don’t – they are very relgious.
Pop Snap
We can do this, starting NOW. If Harvey Milk could beat all the odds and do it in the 70’s, then by God we can do it in 2009. next year will be when we start winning at the ballot box, one state at a time.
The Gay Numbers
If they use that time to create a strong grass roots state organization, then it’s fine. If not, then it was a mistake. We can’t know that now. It’s easy to bitch, but harder to realize that civil rights battles are marithons, not sprints.
Brian
@The Gay Numbers: That’s idiotic. We need a Strategy and Plan to win NOW. You don’t defer equality because you believe people are smarter than we are. You make your case. You try. You do your best.
B.
Brian wrote, “@The Gay Numbers: That’s idiotic. We need a Strategy and Plan to win NOW. You don’t defer equality because you believe people are smarter than we are. You make your case. You try. You do your best.”
Actually, “The Gay Numbers” seems to believe that the opposition has more money than “we do”, and that is probably an accurate assessment.
A counter example might be useful: if you have to drive 100 miles on the gas in your car, you may find that you get there faster by driving slower: substantially higher speeds mean you burn more gas per mile and if you run out of fuel before your destination, you either don’t get there at all or have to limp along on foot for the last 20 miles.
If you have a solid plan to win in 2012, you don’t want to try for 2010 if you are almost certain to lose and will put yourself in a position due to burnout/finances where you can’t win until 2014. That’s what we should be discussing – what’s the probability of success for 2010 versus 2012? And don’t discount the finances – the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church can outspend you, so you have to use your financial resources as effectively as possible.
If trying in 2010 doesn’t impact 2012, then by all means try in 2010, but first make sure that assumption is correct.
Lloyd Baltazar
EQCA wants to hold until 2012. FINE. *coughs*cowards*coughs*
CourageCampaign is pushing for the 2010. LETS HELP support CourageCampaign for their courage to fight back and not delay marriage equality. Its a struggle and a stretch but Gay & Lesbian rights can no longer be delayed by another THREE FUCKING YEARS.
Please support Courage Campaign and their venture for 2010. They are willing to do the work and so should you!—-Especially for the power gays of California! We are the state that is the standard bearer for social liberalism.
The Gay Numbers
@B.: Actually, what I believe is that winning is not about money or passion alone. It is about organization, which, whether you and the other passionate and full of cum types would pay attention is the point- we lack organization. That’s why I say if they organize, then it’s not a problem. If they waste time, then it’s a problem. I assume that I can not know anything more than what is presented both in the historical record (we lacked organization in 2008) and what the activists are saying- they are at the very least disorganized if they can not even agree on a date. My analysis is based on understanding how prior battles were won, which unlike the silly statements by David Mixner, were not won over night , but took in some cases decades. I do not expect this to take that time, but I do expect the activists in CA to get their act together. I do expect them to build the infrastructure across the state , online and off. I expect them to go to places outside of white gay rich urban enclaves. I expect them to talk poor people. People of color. People of different education al backgrond. My point is that by the time 2012 hits if they take this time to actually organize they will win in places that no one right now expects them to win. The last time in 2008- they did not organize. So they did not run up the numbers in our good areas while decreasing the loses in the bad areas. If they had been truly organized in 2008, they would not have lose. It was not money. It was lack of organization. I really can not over emphasize that winning requires organization for progressive causes like equality. I would prefer to not to even have to ask the voters for equality since it should be the actions of the courts to uphold equality. But since we are given not chocie because of the chickent shit courts in CA, I want the gay groups in CA to organize.
The Gay Numbers
@B.: One of the point- not only do I want them to organize. I want them to obtain simple clear messages that respect all of gays out there. That does not minimize their existence. Kathy Griffith of all people got it right when she had a couple on her show the D List in which the couple was denied healthcare benefits because they were gay. The one spouse needed it because he was losing the ability to walk. This is the concrete story of why this matters. Their story should be front and center. We need to be able to concretely address the expected b.s. of the right in which thyey call us pedophilles and other names. I guess this goes partially back to organization. With organization we can get ht emessage out rather than relying on ads and and hope and prayer. The single best way to get the word out in politics – just to let you know- is door to door. That’s right- good old fashion door to door politics. Again, we learned that on kathy griffith’s show because she did that with this black lady who did not understand the real world consequences, and when she was told she changed her mind. I have heard some of the leadrship discussing this. If they follow through on the themes of concrete organization and preparing to smartly win, then I agree with what they doing. My statement is based on a big if. It says “if you are doing what is necessary” I will follow your lead. It is like Maine in which the leadership of that state had their shit together way before they were up for a battle. We may lose there, but at least we will not lose due to a lack of organization.
Dick Mills
Every time that our rights have been put up to a popular vote, we have lost. That is absolutely true. And, it isn’t because the raging homophobes are really that organized, or even very enlightened. But, they are always very willing to pull out all of the stops, and bash the crap out of us. We know that too.
They qualified for the ballot in May. In 5 short months, they got their teeth sharpened enough to win against us – in California, of all places. They did it by using our weakness against us. We, sit back and analyze, and plan, and focus group, and poll, and then we act. They, on the other hand, know that the only thing that they have to do is twist something (anything) into a lie that they can use to cause voters to feel uneasy, or afraid of us. And that’s how they win.
We, tuck our tails between our legs, and whimperingly hope that they won’t stoop so low as to impugn our character. They know that their lies don’t have to be true, they just have to be able to scare that small fraction of voters in the middle. We always end up tripping over all of our big, clumsy committees, living in fear that our responses to their lies must always be vetted by focus groups so that that small fraction of voters don’t end up hating us more. And, in so doing, we have always ended up allowing them to succeed at getting their lies to stick.
Maybe it’s time to let the clumsy committees and focus-groups sit one out. I, for one, would rather go down fighting in the dirtiest, back-alley brawl, than to suffer another defeat for failing to step up, own the fight, and win. We should never fear using the truth to counter their lies, even if it means putting our faces, and our stories in front of voters for them to either empathize with or hate.
Committees are good for spreading blame, but they really aren’t that good at stepping up to the plate and succeeding.
The Gay Numbers
@B.: I swear (okay maybe not) this will be my last post. If you want to understand my point think of the gay groups of 2008 as like Kerry in 2004. Whatever we think of President Obama’s failures as a poltiical leader now, what i want to see out of the gay groups is the type of on the ground organization that leads to win in unexpected places like Obama experienced in 2008. That’s what’s lacking in the gay movement. Good old fashion bottom up organization. I don’t mean conference, and pointelss fucking marches or guys talking about how they understand other civil rights struggles. I mean- old fashion take your ass into the heart of the mouth of the beast kind of organization where you go where people maybe hostile toward you, but you get that percentage who is not, and if you get enough fo those percentages across a state- you win.
hyhybt
Who wants to wait for people to die, anyway? Sure, that might work for those who are left, but old folks deserve to marry too and none of us are getting any younger. If 2010 fails, *then* try in 2012… 2014… yes it’s expensive, but the other side has to cough up campaign money too, and since the issue doesn’t actually affect them at all, they’ll tire of it first 🙂
The Gay Numbers
@Dick Mills: You have no idea what youa re talking about. It is precisely because anti gay groups are organized. If you read the accounts of grassroots activists (not the leaders) in the state CA, they made that point againt and again and again. They were out organized. From the black lesbian who found herself the sole person walking the streets of Oakland because the leadrship did not feel that was an area they could cover to other red areas of the state. We played it safe. AWe did not go and talk to people who were the hard targets to find if there were some soft targets. We were not in the people of color or poor communities. Our enemies were. Again, read the fucking account and stop posting bullshit that bares no relatioshiip to reality because it’s fucking retarded to just make up shit like a little child who wants his toys. If you were on Daily Kos and other political sites the day of the election you knew within hours that we were going to lose. Want to know how i knew? Because they were desperately looking for volunteers to man the polls to hand out literature the day of the election. That was Kerry 2004 esque type of lack of organization. How do I know/ Because I worked for Kerry’s campaign. I watched how fucking unorganized they were. Planning things at ht elast minute. REacting rather than being proactive to the bush team. Etc. So when I see gays make the same mistakes – I want to scream because it is so obv ious to anyone who has ever done this before.
The Gay Numbers
@hyhybt: Once again- it is not abou tmoney. You can not throw money at politial hot button issues and think you are going to win. YOu people are pretty insulated from reality.
hyhybt
I didn’t say throwing money at it would mean winning. I was saying that money is not a reason to wait. Of course better organization would help! But that’s no reason not to go ahead with a vote in the meantime; maybe what organization there is, and the work done by then, along with natural shifting, will have changed enough minds that the extra two years won’t be necessary. If not, no harm done.
The Gay Numbers
@hyhybt: Sure, in a perfect world it should not matter, but perception is a big variable. Look, I would prefer, if they were organize, for them to do it in 2010. But them not being organize is a HUGE concern for me. It takes a lot to get an effective organization together, and it can harm you if you have to keep revving up people’s passion over the same ballot every 2 years.
DavidMichael
My hit is we will win 52/48 in 2010, and 54/46 in 2012.
No reason to wait.
I’m pulling out my checkbook for 2010. Please join me.
I just ask that it be spent WISELY.
We can make it happen. Lets, Just Do It.
mark
@hyhybt: Wrong. Harm WILL be done. A draining of our resources and energy – especially from smaller LGBTQ nonprofits that are serving youth, families, trans, AIDS, etc. Happens to us everytime we have a campaign.
Dick Mills
@The Gay Numbers: So, the only problem that you have with what I posted was an aside where I suggested that the “Yes on H8”-ers were even that organized. If that is the only problem you have, then I am okay with that. But, the hyperbole is usually a sign of a weak argument.
B.
The Gay Numbers wrote, “@B.: Actually, what I believe is that winning is not about money or passion alone. It is about organization, which, whether you and the other passionate and full of cum types would pay attention is the point- we lack organization.”
Now this is hilarious. I’m supposedly a “passionate and full of cum” type for suggesting that “If you have a solid plan to win in 2012, you don’t want to try for 2010 if you are almost certain to lose and will put yourself in a position due to burnout/finances where you can’t win until 2014”? That doesn’t sound very passionate to me. Rather, it sounds realistic.
You are apparently objecting to my statement that you “seem to believe that the opposition has more money” in response to someone who disagreed with you. Yet, you previous wrote, “It’s easy to bitch, but harder to realize that civil rights battles are marithons [sic], not sprints.” To complete a marathon, and all the more so to win one, you need to use resources carefully (not burning yourself out too early) and you need to have enough fuel (food) stored up to finish the race. It’s analogous to being well funded and well managed.
You subsequently went on about organization, outreach, and being organized. The easiest way to be disorganized is to underfund the operation so that it is a perpetual fire drill (in the corporate sense of that phrase, where everyone is in a panic and running around like chickens with their heads cut off to meet a completely unrealistic deadline). None of what you spend several long posts talking about will happen if the funding is not in place.
Sam
@Dick Mills: “Every time that our rights have been put up to a popular vote, we have lost.”
Not true. See:
Gainsville, Florida – 2009 – Voters keep LGBT anti-discrimination law.
Arizona – 2006 – Voters reject same-sex marriage ban.
Maine – 2005 – Voters keep LGBT anti-discrimination law.
California – 1978 – Voters reject law that would have required all openly gay teachers to be fired.
There are more, but those are just off the top of my head…
Sam
@hyhybt: And maybe Jesus will come back and tell all his followers to stop being such bigots and to just approve gay marriage in California, which is the center of the universe and the be all and end all for gay rights.
No harm done? HUGE harm done. If California goes for repeal in 2010, it’s going to suck up all the national money for a poorly run campaign destined to fail. And then Maine, a state that IS organized and has a GREAT chance of winning in 2010, will fail because of lack of funding.
Don’t believe me? It already happened once, in Arizona. They beat back a constitutional amendment in 2006 with nationwide support but in 2008, when all the support got sent to California instead, the amendment passed.
For Maine alone, California should wait. We should be focused, as a community, on Maine in 2010 THEN California in 2012.
Dick Mills
@Sam: I stand corrected. Virtually every time that our rights have been put up to a popular vote, we have lost. Arizona, though, did ban marriage equality in 2008. So, eventually, every time that our marriage equality has been put to a public vote, we have lost.
Brian
The EQCA “plan” just suggests we wait until the older “religious” people die. There’s nothing in there to hasten that helpful observation. THAT would be a Plan.
Daniel
Not to point out the obvious, but “the polls” claimed California would back equality last time. If you base anything on “polls”, I have some swampland I’d like to sell you.
Brian
@Geoff: Lame.
mikeandrewsdantescove
This is meant as no disrespect to Geoff Korrs but he made several mistakes in his previous efforts and I’m surprised there wasn’t a leadership change this time around.
I don’t want to wait and think the Courage Campaign is doing the right thing. They have gay marriage in my home state of Iowa. There is no reason California shouldn’t be next. Iowa’s much more conservative. I know this because of living there for 24 years.
Mike
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