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JUSTICE SERVED

American Bar Association Considers Banning Gay Panic Defense

A standard ploy for sleazy defense attorneys with clients who bash gays is to claim the victim triggered the attack by making  a pass at the murderer (or perhaps just a simple assaulter). But the days of the gay panic defense may be numbered. The American Bar Association’s Criminal Justice Section is taking up a proposal that would no longer allow defense attorneys to use victims’ sexual orientation or identity against them in court. 

The gay panic defense has been used in many gay-bashing cases, including such high-profile ones as the Matthew Shepard murder. In essence, the defense argues that the defendant had the right to flip out and beat someone to a bloody pulp because he was afraid that the victim was coming onto him. (If this was a legitimate reason for killing someone, thousands of heterosexual men would be meeting their demise at the hands of women they hit on.)

“This resolution puts an end to a longstanding injustice in our legal system and gives a voice to countless lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender victims of violence, one we never hear because they are no longer here to speak for themselves,” said D’Arcy Kemnitz, executive director of the National LGBT Bar Association. The proposal goes before the full ABA house of delegates for a vote in August.

By:          John Gallagher
On:           Jun 4, 2013
Tagged: , , , ,
  • 27 Comments
    • Ridpathos

      How this defense lasted so long is a mystery to me.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 9:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Caleb in SC

      I’m sure this resolution will pass; however, it is really not up to the ABA. Whether such a defense will continue to exist is a matter of the individual states’ laws. The ABA has passed many resolutions that are never adopted by the states.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 10:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LaTeesha

      Given how many gays are being bashed & killed in NY perhaps it’s time for the str8 panic defense to be used by a gay person who kills a str8 person. Just say you feared for your life because str8 peeps are evil & have a history of hurting & killing gay peeps. Turnabout is fair play.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 12:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt

      @Caleb in SC: Why would it depend on state law? Don’t lawyers have to abide by the rules of bar associations if they want to keep their licenses? That wouldn’t necessarily stop the defense from being used, but it would make it awfully rare anyone would be willing to try it.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 12:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Caleb in SC

      @hyhybt: I understand your confusion. Despite its name, the ABA doesn’t actually license any lawyers at all. Instead, your licensure is dependent on the state or states in which you practice law. The same with the American Medical Association (AMA). The AMA doesn’t actually license any physicians, who are individually licensed in their respective states. For example, I am licensed in SC, but being a member of the ABA is not a prerequisite for practicing law in any state. Another example of the lack of any binding authority of the ABA, in 2000, the ABA proposed sweeping changes to the Rules of Professional Conduct. When SC established its commission to review these changes, SC did not adopt them all and modified some of them. So, while the ABA may issue a formal resolution condemning the “gay panic” defense, a state is free either to accept this position or reject it depending on state law. Regardless, if passed, this resolution would certainly be persuasive, but it is not binding.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 1:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cyn

      It always has been a lame defense. If I, as a cis female, decide a man has been to forward with me, I am not allowed to beat the shit out of him, or assault him in any way. While I have broken a few hands that would not keep to themselves, mostly it was on men who would never ever report being assaulted by a woman. “Gay panic” is simply a green light for packs of idiots to beat the tar out of anyone they perceive as gay.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 2:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • erasure25

      @Caleb in SC: Thanks for the insider information. It seems more likely that an attorney would become somewhat of a pariah in their legal social groupings if they constantly use the gay panic defense when the ABA bans it. Something like peer pressure, which is no small thing.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Caleb in SC

      @erasure25: I personally have never heard of it being used here in SC. Despite South Carolina’s somewhat backward stance when it comes to LGBT issues, juries here see through BS quickly. This alleged defense will be stricken when solicitors and district attorneys keep arguing against the validity of this sham defense. Eventually, it will be gone altogether, but despite this article, I don’t think it is even commonly accepted anymore, which is a good thing.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 3:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joetx

      @hyhybt: Furthermore, states through their legislatures & judicial systems, create the laws outside of those promulgated by Congress & the federal courts. The ABA has no say, especially when it comes to conservative lawmakers & judges.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 8:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CivicMinded

      How about a gay panic offense? I asked him out and he beat the tar out of me. Send him to prison please.

      Jun 4, 2013 at 11:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stache1

      @Ridpathos: Their just taking advantage of the bigotry that was already there in the jury. I’ve been involved in a trial about 13 years ago where the “gay panic defence” was used. This was next to San Francisco and still the jury found him innocent even though the perp was completely guilty.

      Jun 5, 2013 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jmmartin

      We had a local “expert witness” who was hired by defense attorneys when they represented sociopathic stud hustler types (rough trade) accused of murdering gay men. This person was a former county medical examiner, retired but willing to testify on a case by case basis, telling juries that when some men are both attracted to, and repulsed by, a homosexual making advances, they “panic” and try to destroy the person representing the object of their abhorrence. In clearly homophobic terms, this erstwhile coroner always painted a picture of gay men as preying mantises, repugnant and eager to “take advantage” of their killers. His suggestion was that gays should simply stay in the closet rather than risk attaining what he saw as their just rewards: death. It was clear from his testimony that he thought homosexual behavior a chosen path one takes, not an orientation one is born with. Fortunately, he is no longer among the living himself. One less scoundrel to aid common murderers in getting off with a “justifiable” manslaughter rather than conviction of a 1st degree or capital offense.

      Jun 10, 2013 at 12:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Most men and boys who are victims of gays usu. won’t call cops to report that a gay is committing indecent exposure, harassment or in worst cases molestation until some1 reacts violently and bashes the gay. A gay bashing case I know. What happened was that an 18 year old boy had been in a park with friends. A gay who was much bigger than him grabbed the boy’s butt & made a sex comment. The boy then told his 2 friends. After this, the 2 men grabbed the gay, brought him to the boy who then hit the gay several times in the face. That ‘gay bashing’ victim committed a crime-assault&battery & boy reacted by bashing him. If that teenage boy had tried to walk away, that gay who was much bigger than him would likely have attacked him because the gay had a violent history (unreported to cops) of beating up teenage boys after harassing them for sex & these cases unpredictable.

      With that gay, it’s highly likely the gay was trying to do something more violent, so that gay deserves no sympathy for getting hit in the face. This gay again had beaten up other teenage boys after committing assault & battery, was likely trying to do it to this teenage boy, but because teenage boy had 2 friends (1 a martial arts expert) who were with him, they were able to defend this boy. If the homosexual is high on drugs such as cocaine as that gay possibly was then it’s likely the gay would’ve done more violent crime in a cocaine rage if indeed the gay was high. Self-defense is a jury topic after hearing both prosecutor & defense lawyer & jury decides if gay basher used reasonable or excessive force. If it’s reasonable, then you acquit and if it’s excessive, then what degree. if it turns out that homosexual committed indecent exposure, harassment or assault & battery on a young man (men) before the men reacted violently, then I have no sympathy for the homosexual.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Proposing (straight or gay) in your house, singles bar or @ a private party is in most cases legal. The right thing to do is say no and leave. If a man is a guest in a gay man’s house and the gay man proposes, the right thing to do is say no and leave because it is the gay man’s house and the gay man did not commit a crime when he did the proposal so the right thing to do is leave the house. However, repeatedly proposing after some1 has said no is criminal harassment.

      If gay man repeatedly proposes such as follow the man around after no has been said, then the homosexual is committing criminal stalking and the man has a right to end this abuse. If a homosexual is going to commit indecent exposure, then it’s a crime and there is no need for a man to say no to a crime the homosexual had no right to do. & there is no need for a man to say no to a homosexual who is proposing to him in a public restroom because public restroom is not a house or a bar and it’s illegal to ask others for sex in public restroom. Public restroom is the place to use toilet and wash up not a place for sex. Again if it’s true homosexual committed indecent exposure, harassment, stalking, etc. before men reacted violently, then the fact the homosexual committed a crime before he was bashed must be decided by jury in deciding if gay basher(s) used reasonable or excess force. I would rather have a case where a jury decides if a man’s reaction to bashing or killing a homosexual is justified or excess vs. the man doesn’t do enough and the gay does something worse. Most men and boys who are victims of gays usu. won’t call cops to report that a gay is committing indecent exposure, harassment or in worst cases molestation until some1 reacts violently and bashes the gay.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Something to regard-if you’re a store owner there is no need to put up signs that say ‘don’t steal’ because stealing is a crime and no need to say no to a crime the other person has no right to do. If some1 is stealing, the right thing to do is use reasonable (not excess) force to stop the the thief and have the police arrest the thief. If you do nothing, then worse can happen as these situations can be unpredictable. It is possible for a thief to be stealing things anything small such as shoplifting candy to expensive things such as diamonds and then beat up or even kill the shop keeper with or without weapons. Many cases where thieves have beaten up or killed shop keepers after stealing. No, stealing alone does not justify deadly force but theft may not be the only crime intended and it is possible for thieves to beat up or kill their victims. If the thief is high on drugs (such as a junky who steals to support his or her habit) then it is possible for the thief to be stealing things and then in a drug rage attack or even kill the store owner.

      So if a homosexual is going to commit harassment, indecent exposure, stalking, assault and battery (such as if a homosexual grabs a man’s butt or groin against will), etc. then a man has a right to use reasonable force to end the abuse. There’s no need for a man to say no to a homosexual who is committing indecent exposure, etc. because there’s no need to say no to a crime. If the homosexual is high on drugs such as cocaine then it’s likely the gay would’ve done more violent crime in a cocaine rage. If a defense lawyer in a gay bashing case wants to raise a crime the gay did such as harassment, indecent exposure, stalking, etc. before man reacted violently, then that must be regarded in deciding verdict.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Let’s say a gay man grabs commits indecent exposure or grab a man’s butt or groin against will (assault & battery) after which man reacts by bashing or killing the gay-is it self-defense? Jury decides. Now posters will say that the man should do not react but though you know, here’s what could happen if the man doesn’t react.

      If the homosexual man is trying to commit sex abuse such as homosexual rape, the first thing(s) the gay does is grab a man’s butt, groin, etc. against will. A case can be made that the man by bashing or killing the gay was defending himself against homosexual rape. Jury decides if it’s justified or excess force to end abuse. If the homosexual has a history of molesting boys & men, then it’s highly likely the gay is trying to commit a more serious crime & that assault & battery of grabbing the man’s butt & or groin against will is the first thing the gay is doing.

      If the homosexual is high on drugs such as cocaine, meth, heroin or other drugs, then a homosexual could commit a violent crime in drug rage after committing assault & battery, indecent exposure, etc. So yes, it’s possible for a gay man to commit a more violent crime in drug rage incl. up to murder after committing assault & battery, indecent exposure, etc.

      What posters should say is they don’t think a man should have a right to defend himself by calling it panic & that the man should end up being a victim. What can make difference between getting charge dismissed & conviction are different things. Let’s say the gay man has past history of beating up men after harassing them for sex (such as court restraints against gay), then that can support argument that if a man bashed or killed a gay man after the homosexual grabbed man’s butt against will (assault & battery) or after the gay committed indecent exposure, that the man was defending himself from a more violent crime as this gay has history of committing violent crimes after harassing males for sex. Defense could try to subpoena the gay’s medical & psychological records to see if the gay has admitted to committing violence.

      If however the abuse the gays committed was not reported to cops which in most cases isn’t, then it’s a prosecutor says, defense says & prosecution usu. happens with either plea bargain or it it’s tried, jury decides which story is credible & was justified or excess force. Posters know that these cases are not easy & simple because again grabbing people’s body parts against will is assault & battery-using words like unwanted…. are codes or mild words for criminal assault & battery, indecent exposure, etc.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Posters must be honest & say that they think if a gay or some cases lesbian commits a crime such as indecent exposure, stalking, etc. that you don’t think a man should have a right to defend himself against this crime. Though you know this & posters talk with forked tongue, here are some things you know but omit, as these cases are unpredictable.

      -If a gay grabs a man’s butt, groin, etc. against will, the homosexual is committing assault & battery. If a homosexual man is trying to commit a more serious crime such as pedophilia, the first things a gay does is that assault & battery. It’s same way that if a man is going to rape a woman, the 1st things he does are grab a woman’s boobs, butt, etc. against will.

      -If the gay (some cases lesbian) is high on drugs such as cocaine & or meth while committing indecent exposure, stalking, etc., then the homosexual can commit a more violent crime incl. murder in a drug rage after committing indecent exposure. Stalking, indecent exposure, etc. may not be the only crime which the homosexual intends esp. if he is high on drugs.

      Think you know that when gays & lesbians commit sex abuse, the first thing they do is commit indecent exposure, grab a person’s genitals against will before doing something more violent. You’re offended by a man defending himself if a homosexual commits indecent exposure, etc. I think that you hate straight men esp. straight White men.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      I saw Cyn’s photos on Internet & CynH. McCollum is too old & womenopausal for most men to want. Cyn, most men aren’t interested in having sex with you as you’re now old & ugly. I think Cyn that you’re dishonest on gay topic & think you believe it’s OK for gays to molest children.

      There are many cases where women have committed assault & battery or killed men & then said in their trial that the man was abusing them when it was opposite such as Jodi Ann Arias murder trial. Jodi Ann Arias stalked her boyfriend and 1 day she murdered him by stabbing him to death and cutting his throat. During the murder trial, Jodi Ann Arias said that her boyfriend abused her when she abused her boyfriend. Travis Victor Alexander did nothing wrong other than be involved with Jodi Ann Arias a woman with Borderline Personality Disorder and in the end that got him murdered & during the murder trial, he is accused of abusing her when it’s other way round. & long before Jodi Ann Arias met Travis V. Alexander, she had a violent history going back years such as Jodi Ann Arias kicking a dog when she was a teenager, Jodi Ann Arias abusing her cat (which prosecutor Juan M. Martinez was not allowed to raise) and Jodi Ann Arias was not credible during the murder trial.

      & there were defense witnesses such as Alyce L. LaViolette, L.C. Miccio-Fonseca, Richard M. Samuels and Robert A. Geffner who said what they knew is false for money. They didn’t care what the facts were, they just saw a chance to make $ by testifying by making the victim look like the abuser when it’s other way round.
      Alyce Louise LaViolette did not care that Jodi Ann Arias was stalking Travis V. Alexander, among other things. Travis Victor Alexander reported Jodi Ann Arias stalking him and slashing his tires. But it’s possible Jodi Ann Arias committed assault & battery on Travis V. Alexander or even threatened him with a knife only Travis V. Alexander didn’t report this. Men are more likely to tolerate women stalking them and Travis V. Alexander figured that because he was a risk taker and bigger than Jodi Ann Arias, he could handle Jodi Ann Arias abusing him. Don’t be surprised if Jodi Ann Arias had even tried to stab Travis V. Alexander before only that he had stopped it, except this time, she murdered him.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Assault and battery or murder cases including gay bashing cases, unless there is a plea bargain (which happens in most criminal cases) juries decide after hearing both prosecutor and defense lawyer. Juries decide what is reasonable & excess because each case is different and must be judged individually. As known with murder cases, there is Murder 1, Murder 2 and Manslaughter which is a jury topic. If a defense lawyer in a gay bashing case wants to raise a crime the gay did such as harassment, indecent exposure, etc. before man reacted violently, then that must be regarded in deciding verdict. Prosecutors can argue why they think it was excess force and defense lawyer can argue why it was justified force. Jury decides if it’s justified or excess force. A jury can acquit or if they convict, they can convict a person on lesser charge.

      A rebuttal people make is that gay bashers will sometimes say things to justify their deeds such as saying the homosexual committed indecent exposure, harassment, stalking and so on and that it’s the gay basher’s side of story. Yes-but just as gay basher’s have interest to justify their deeds, gay bashing victims have interest to make themselves look like innocent victims. We don’t always know the other side of story and that is usually different from what homosexual says happened. Again if it’s true homosexual committed indecent exposure, harassment, stalking, etc. before men reacted violently, then the fact the homosexual committed a crime before he was bashed must be decided by jury in deciding if gay basher(s) used reasonable or excess force. I would rather have a case where a jury decides if a man’s reaction to bashing or killing a homosexual is justified or excess vs. the man doesn’t do enough and the gay does something worse. Most men and boys who are victims of gays usu. won’t call cops to report that a gay is committing indecent exposure, harassment or in worst cases molestation until some1 reacts violently and bashes the gay.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      I called Judy L. Shepard on May 6, 2015 @ her home. Dennis picked up (I spoke to him on November 3, 2014 to tell him his son was a child molester & drug dealer) & I asked for Judy after which he gave to Judy. I then told Judy Lynn Shepard that Methew Shepard was a child molester & drug junky after which she told me to get a life and hung up. I told the ugly truth of what her son was-a child molester & a drug junky. Homosexual groups have been trying to keep Stephen Jimenez’s Book of Matt from being sold. Honest discussion is discussing & rebutting-not censoring because 1 finds something offensive.

      Calling them twice to tell the truth is not harassment. Harassment is repeatedly contacting a person after they have asked you to stop contacting them. Since this happened twice, it was not harassment, so it’s legal. Shepards are famous. If the Shepard’s don’t want people calling them to tell ugly truths of Methew W. Shepard being a drug junky and a child molester, then they should get an unlisted # because that is what comes with being famous. I did the right thing because they are the 1s who get rich off of his murder, not me. I just call to tell them the truth & I earn nothing.

      Dennis & Judy L. Shepard have no complaint right when people like me call them to say that their son was a child molester & drug junky. Dennis & Judy get rich & most media shills for them. Celebrities Ellen, Rosie T. O’Donnell (Roseann Teresa O’Donnel), etc. give money to them & make them rich. If once in a while people like me call their house to tell them ugly truths about their son, then don’t complain. They can get an unlisted # if they don’t want people calling them @ home to tell them Methew W. Shepard’s a drug junky & a child molester. & it is possible Methew W. Shepard molested more boys than the 2 cases he got counseling for because most molestations are unreported.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      I also want to comment on something I have found talking with gay bashers. Gay bashers are not dumb people. I’ll give a case I knew from 1989. @ 1 place I worked for 7 weeks in summer 1989 (LA Times telemarketer), there was an 18 year old boy who was there for 2 weeks or so (telemarketing jobs trying to sell newspapers bores alot of people). This boy talked of how he & friends would bash gay men. I asked him how he did it He told me that what he & friends had done before was go to a park where it’s known for gays to have sex in bathrooms & public places.

      He & friends would go to a park or park bathroom & when a gay solicited them to have sex in the bathroom or the park, then they’d bash the gay. Yes, the boys committed assault & battery, along with what could be a hate crime. The gay men were committing a crime (public indecency) having sex in bathrooms & parks. Since then, I have read of cases where men have gone on gay websites posing as 15 year old boys. Gay men reply, thinking they’re going to pickup a teenage boy, but instead get bashed by men who pretended to be teenagers.

      Yes, that is wrong. It’s the job of cops to arrest gays who have sex in bathrooms & molest teenage boys & courts decide their punishment. But you know the gays in these cases were committing crimes. There are gay bashing cases which don’t get reported to cops such as these because the gays know that they will incriminate themselves. Gay bashers who do this know the gays don’t want to go to jail for trying to pickup teenage boys on Internet or indecency for trying to have sex in parks. The gay bashers have no right but in these cases, the victims were not innocent.

      My guess with the Calif. case, those gays likely had an unreported history of having sex with teenage boys, were hoping in those cases to have sex with 16 or 17 year old boys but instead got bashed by them. Yes by law, the teenage boys & the men committed assault & battery. But these homosexual hate crime victims are usu. not going to report that because they don’t want to self-incriminate.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Metthew Wayne Shepard (1976-1998) was not the innocent as he has been portrayed by Laramie Project or films like Shepard is a Friend of Mine. Metthew Wayne Shepard was a junky who assoc. with drug dealers in both Colorado & Wyoming, was possibly a drug dealer himself (Methew Wayne Shepard could also possibly have been a drug courier or a lookout, but whether or not he was a drug dealer he did assoc. with drug dealers) & when he was 15 years old, he was arrested for molesting 2 boys & he got counseling by Natrona County Juvenile Court for molesting 2 boys.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Natrona County Juvenile Court gave Methew Wayne Shepard counseling for molesting 2 boys when he was 15 years old, but if the Wyoming legal system had given Methew Wayne Shepard years in prison rather than counseling by Natrona County Juvenile Court for molesting 8 year old boys when he was 15 years old, then Methew Wayne Shepard would have avoided being murdered in 1998.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      When I read a gay (transexuals are mutilated gays/lesbians and they must abolish sex changes) bashing case in the news, I wonder what the view is of the journalist reporting this on homosexuality/lesbianism. I also wonder if the journalist is a homosexual or lesbian and if so, are they setting aside their bias and reporting the news with no problems. I do not trust news that I get from Daily Kos or the Huffington Post on their coverage of gay bashing cases because they predictably make the homosexual look like an innocent victim no matter what wrong the gay does.

      Gay bashing victims will face the same public opinion court as gay bashers. If there are ugly truths about a homosexual which the media omits as they most media did with Methew Wayne Shepard, then we will use our free speech rights to tell the ugly truths about the homosexual even if others dislike it. & there is nothing any1 can do to legally stop us from telling the ugly truths. Gay bashing victims will face the public opinion court as gay bashers do and ugly truths will be told about a homosexual if it’s found though it offends homosexual groups.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 6:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      Transexuals (maimed gays/lesbians) have more problems. Transexuals often commit robberies to buy dangerous hormones & many transexuals are drug junkies who use Meth, cocaine & other drugs + the dangerous hormones. Transexuals are sometimes involved in prostitution which incl. pimping young boys into prostitution & drugs. Transexuals again sometimes commit violence against others to get money. Also if a transexual commits sex abuse against a man or boy, most males are shy & won’t report this to cops until some1 reacts violently & bashes or kills the transexual. It doesn’t shock me if a transexual who is bashed or killed after he had tried to rob a man for money. Black transexuals are more likely to use crack, though transexuals of all ethnic groups are more likely to be drug junkies. Most men & boys again are shy about reporting that a transexual or gay has committed a crime such as sex abuse against them.

      Proposing (straight or gay) in your house, singles bar or @ a private party is in most cases legal. The right thing to do is say no and leave. If a man is a guest in a gay man’s house and the gay man proposes, the right thing to do is say no and leave because it is the gay man’s house and the gay man did not commit a crime when he did the proposal so the right thing to do is leave the house. However, repeatedly proposing after some1 has said no is criminal harassment.

      If gay man repeatedly proposes such as follow the man around after no has been said, then the homosexual is committing criminal stalking and the man has a right to end this abuse. If a homosexual is going to commit indecent exposure, then it’s a crime and there is no need for a man to say no to a crime the homosexual had no right to do.

      Assault and battery or murder cases including gay bashing cases, unless there is a plea bargain (which happens in most criminal cases) juries decide after hearing both prosecutor and defense lawyer. Juries decide what is reasonable & excess because each case is different and must be judged individually. As known with murder cases, there is Murder 1, Murder 2 and Manslaughter which is a jury topic. If a defense lawyer in a gay bashing case wants to raise a crime the gay did such as harassment, indecent exposure, etc. before man reacted violently, then that must be regarded in deciding verdict. Prosecutors can argue why they think it was excess force and defense lawyer can argue why it was justified force. Jury decides if it’s justified or excess force. A jury can acquit or if they convict, they can convict a person on lesser charge.

      A rebuttal people make is that gay bashers will sometimes say things to justify their deeds such as saying the homosexual committed indecent exposure, harassment, stalking and so on and that it’s the gay basher’s side of story. Yes-but just as gay basher’s have interest to justify their deeds, gay bashing victims have interest to make themselves look like innocent victims. We don’t always know the other side of story and that is usually different from what homosexual says happened. Again if it’s true homosexual committed indecent exposure, harassment, stalking, etc. before men reacted violently, then the fact the homosexual committed a crime before he was bashed must be decided by jury in deciding if gay basher(s) used reasonable or excess force. I would rather have a case where a jury decides if a man’s reaction to bashing or killing a homosexual is justified or excess vs. the man doesn’t do enough and the gay does something worse. Most men and boys who are victims of gays usu. won’t call cops to report that a gay is committing indecent exposure, harassment or in worst cases molestation until some1 reacts violently and bashes the gay.

      Aug 22, 2016 at 8:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      For posters who say that if a homosexual (some cases lesbian) commits crimes such as stalking, indecent exposure, assault & battery (touching a person’s genitals against will is assault & battery or forceplay), etc. that the man should allow the abuse are apologists for molestation because that is what a would be molester wants the victim to do before doing a more violent attack. First again-stalking, harassment, indecent exposure, assault & battery (forceplay), etc. are crimes just by themselves. But they can easily worsen to something more violent.

      Posters must be honest & say that they think if a gay or some cases lesbian commits a crime such as indecent exposure, stalking, etc. that you don’t think a man should have a right to defend himself against this crime. Though you know this & posters talk with forked tongue, here are some things you know but omit, as these cases are unpredictable.

      -If a gay grabs a man’s butt, groin, etc. against will, the homosexual is committing assault & battery or forceplay even if people use mild words such as unwanted….. If a homosexual man is trying to commit a more serious crime such as pedophilia, the first things a gay does is that assault & battery or forceplay. It’s same way that if a man is going to rape a woman, the 1st things he does are grab a woman’s boobs, butt, etc. against will or forceplay. If a homosexual wants to commit molestation-Stalking, indecent exposure, assault & battery or forceplay, etc. are often the first crimes a homosexual does before he molests.

      -If the gay (some cases lesbian) is high on drugs such as cocaine & or meth while committing indecent exposure, stalking, etc., then the homosexual can commit a more violent crime incl. murder in a drug rage after committing indecent exposure. Stalking, indecent exposure, etc. may not be the only crime which the homosexual intends esp. if he is high on drugs. Think you know that when gays & lesbians commit sex abuse, the first thing they do is commit indecent exposure, grab a person’s genitals against will before doing something more violent. You’re offended by a man defending himself if a homosexual commits indecent exposure, etc.

      Proposing (straight or gay) in your house, singles bar or @ a private party is in most cases legal. The right thing to do is say no and leave. If a man is a guest in a gay man’s house and the gay man proposes, the right thing to do is say no and leave because it is the gay man’s house and the gay man did not commit a crime when he did the proposal so the right thing to do is leave the house. However, repeatedly proposing after some1 has said no is criminal harassment.

      If gay man repeatedly proposes such as follow the man around after no has been said, then the homosexual is committing criminal stalking and the man has a right to end this abuse. If a homosexual is going to commit indecent exposure, then it’s a crime and there is no need for a man to say no to a crime the homosexual had no right to do. & there is no need for a man to say no to a homosexual who is proposing to him in a public restroom because public restroom is not a house or a bar and it’s illegal to ask others for sex in public restroom. Public restroom is the place to use toilet and wash up not a place for sex.

      Again if it’s true homosexual committed indecent exposure, harassment, stalking, etc. before men reacted violently, then the fact the homosexual committed a crime before he was bashed must be decided by jury in deciding if gay basher(s) used reasonable or excess force. I would rather have a case where a jury decides if a man’s reaction to bashing or killing a homosexual is justified or excess vs. the man doesn’t do enough and the gay does something worse. Most men and boys who are victims of gays usu. won’t call cops to report that a gay is committing indecent exposure, harassment or in worst cases molestation until some1 reacts violently and bashes the gay.

      Aug 26, 2016 at 8:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • abnerbha

      When I read a gay (transexuals are mutilated gays/lesbians and they must abolish sex changes) bashing case in the news, I wonder what the view is of the journalist reporting this on homosexuality/lesbianism. I also wonder if the journalist is a homosexual or lesbian and if so, are they setting aside their bias and reporting the news with no problems. I do not trust news that I get from Daily Kos or the Huffington Post on their coverage of gay bashing cases because they predictably make the homosexual look like an innocent victim no matter what wrong the gay does.

      Even the pro-gay websites Huffington Post & Queerty admit that gays, lesbians & transexuals (mutilated gays/lesbians) are more likely to be drug junkies as you can see these 3 links http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-do-gay-men-do-crystal-meth_us_5704023ee4b083f5c60929b5 https://www.queerty.com/whats-behind-the-enduring-allure-of-crystal-meth-for-gay-men-20160405 & https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20160201/west-village/meth-is-overlooked-problem-transgender-gay-communities-experts
      What the Huffington Post & Queerty links omit are violent crimes gays, lesbians & transexuals commit while high on drugs.

      -If the gay (some cases lesbian) is high on drugs such as cocaine & or meth while committing indecent exposure, stalking, etc., then the homosexual can commit a more violent crime incl. murder in a drug rage after committing indecent exposure. Stalking, indecent exposure, etc. may not be the only crime which the homosexual intends esp. if he is high on drugs. Think you know that when gays & lesbians commit sex abuse, the first thing they do is commit indecent exposure, grab a person’s genitals against will before doing something more violent.

      I would rather have a case where a jury decides if a man’s reaction to bashing or killing a homosexual is justified or excess vs. the man doesn’t do enough and the gay does something worse. Most men and boys who are victims of gays usu. won’t call cops to report that a gay is committing indecent exposure, harassment or in worst cases molestation until some1 reacts violently and bashes the gay.

      Sep 4, 2016 at 1:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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