13,623,044: Thatās the estimated population the U.S. that now enjoy marriage equality; nearly 5% of the nation overall.
In a momentous day, Vermontās state legislature overrode the veto of their Governor and became the 4th state in the nation to offer gay marriage (five if you count California). At the same time, the Washington D.C. city council voted to recognize same-sex unions from other states, joining New York and Rhode Island. In fact, when you throw in states which recognize out-of-state same sex unions, 12 percent of the country (by population) can get married regardless of their gender. Thatās not a small number by any means. The question is, has gay marriage reached a tipping point?
Last night, as I looked up at the sky in Los Angeles, the full moon was surrounded in a rainbow halo as the clouds drifted by. Iām not one for signs from above, but there are many signs here on the ground that the gay rights movement has turned a page in the past week. Pastor Joel Osteen was on Larry King last night (Quick aside: Is it crazy religious conservatives week over at CNN?) and all he could grumble was that he believed in āGodās best.ā When King asked him if he would accept getting the state out of the marriage business and make it a purely religious institution, Osteen was at a loss for words. Tony Perkins, head of the Family Research Council had more vitriol, saying, āSame-sex āmarriageā is a movement driven by wealthy homosexual activists and a liberal elite determined to destroy not only the institution of marriage, but democracy as wellā and conservatives on Twitter wrote that āVermont acted against the will of the peopleā. Never mind that 58% of Vermont citizens support same-sex marriage.
But these people are finding themselves increasingly marginalized. New York Senator Chuck Schumer now says he supports full marriage equality, as does New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg. There are gay marriage bills on the table in Nevada, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Maine and Washington state. Statistical guru Nate Silver has enough data now about marriage to make the prediction that by 2012, 50% of the U.S. would vote against a gay marriage ban.
āHowād we get here so fast?ā, is the question many of us our wondering. After all, it was only a few months ago that gays and lesbians marched in widespread protests across the country and there are more protests and events planned in the near future. Of course, the protests and the marching have a lot to do with changing the national mood. It seems every few weeks, thereās a major development that LGBT activists can use as a tent pole to raise the issue of fairness and equality to mainstream Americans, be it marriage legislation, court rulings or wellā Pastor Rick Warren. After years of struggling to grab the attention of the country about the basic denials of freedom gays and lesbians suffer, weāre suddenly in the limelight.
Part of this is also shear luck. Nobody could have anticipated that Prop. 8ās passage in California would reinvigorate the gay community as much as it has, not just in the Golden State, but across the nation. On a personal level, Prop. 8 forced me to think about my identity in a way I hadnāt before. Like many of my generation, the gay and lesbian community was something I would go out and visit, not something I saw myself a part ofā and this is from someone whoās written about the gay community for the last five years in various capacities. After Prop. 8, Iāve seen, not just in myself, but in my friends and to those I get to meet through Queerty, a real sense of ownership of the term āgay communityā. Put simply, the gay community is what you make of it.
Itās very easy to get hung up on how far we have to go, or on the nonsensical ramblings of bigots, but we should take stock of our achievements, too. We have changed the debate about gay rights in this countryā and have done so in an extraordinarily short time. Obviously, a huge part of this success is built on the backs of gay leaders and organizations like Lambda Legal, who have brought our issues and concerns to the courts, but the idea that gay rights will somehow be won through a backdoor midnight ride has been obliterated forever. The key to our political equality lies in our ability to speak up, speak loudly and speak often.
This week has been a momentous one, truly something for the history books, but we must keep looking forward. Our eyes should now be focused on New Hampshire and Maine, both states that are winnable. If youāre looking for some way to contribute, weāll keep you informed of the latest events happening across the nation, but talking about gay rights to your friends and neighbors will put a human face on what it means to be gay and lesbian in this country. Itās as simple as saying, āHey, did you hear about Vermont?ā Also, write to your representatives and let them know you want them to accept full marriage equality. Remember, they work for you.
Will gays and lesbians enjoy full equality sooner, rather than later? I think so, as long as we keep on fighting. āJaphy Grant
dgz
who wrote this? didn’t youall used to credit who wrote each post? this doesn’t sound particularly japhy-esque.
and that pastor’s name is joel OSTEEN.
Japhy Grant
@dgz: Sorry about that. I added a byline. I’m not really sure what happened to them, so have been adding manually.
What’s Japhy-esque? I can be upbeat! Honest!
Forrest
I agree and also think that we need to keep some perspective. For those of us in conservative states without independent quirks like Iowa we are still at the base of the mountain looking up. A national tidal wave of marriage equality is not happening tomorrow, next month, or next year.
Further, while Iowa’s Supreme Court did the right thing. Their ruling did not change the state into VT,CT,or MA in a sociological sense. Gay couples that go there need to be realistic about the mixed reception they will get. It’s still a very conservative state. The ruling does not change that fact.
Prop 8 is likely to be upheld with marriages already performed considered legal. Our opponents will use the decision as proof that a major state stands against us.
The battle to overturn it at the ballot box will be expensive and emotionally wrenching. Again.
Let’s celebrate but not be delusional.
dgz
@Japhy Grant:
no, i love your writing, i just like to know who i’m reading š
(p.s. i think it’s the “rainbow halo around the moon” part that threw me off.)
Jason in WV
I’ll be surprised if WV ever passes gay marriage bills of any kind. Actually, there has been a little headway, but not much.
As a side note, a rainbow halo around the moon indicates that it will soon snow. (That’s Appalachian folklore, from the heart of WV). You can predict when it will snow by counting the stars that are inside the rainbow halo. Each star represents a day… so maybe, since it doesn’t snow that much in California, your omen was of how many days until the landslide? Just a thought. Nice to think about, anyway…
doro
60% of the country still thinks we are immoral sinners going to hell! Gay marriage or not, people will always treat us like sinners! Thats how I see it.
ChristopherM
Demographics show that it is simply a matter of time before the bigots are in the minority. Frankly, they are dying out, and the younger ones are very marginalized by their peers, even to some extent in conservative states. Like the Sen. Majority Leader of Iowa said yesterday, they’ve lost the battle and they don’t even realize it yet.
The Gay Numbers
If race is any guide (and I think it is), what we will see is a gain of many states of the next decade, but ultmately the advance will stall in certain regions (mostly being the Southern (including some South adjacent states like Missouri) and this time, certain, conservative western states like Utah and Nebraska among others).
Because of the legal conplexity of the issue, the real solution will have to be federal with the S.Ct. taking up the issue, and eventually ruling that gays are a suspect class and that our rights are subject to protection under equal protection analysis. No real progress will be made until then. Why?
Because marriage is a complex of state, federal, internatonal and multiple state rights. There is no plausible legal way to address it other than the national level.
As an aside, the reality is that while I am happy about this- the answer to all of the legal issues (with the exception of the hate crimes bill) facing gays is really just one issue- equal protection. This is why I was so happy that Dustin Lance Black mentioned a national gay rights effort. I was happy to see someone get how the marriage issue is part of a greater battle for equal protection. Many of the gay detractors against marriage who claim to be for other rights do not understand the issue- and assume that there are multiple issues. There is only one.
Whether it is ENDA or DADT or DOMA- they are all the same issue. That issue is whether gays will be protected equally under the laws as straights. Housing is an equal protection issue as it with African Americans. So is employment discrimination. So is whether they can kick us out of the military.
We tend to think of these as many issues, and marriage brings up due process issues (privacy), but ultimately federally the solution is resolution of the same issue- equal protection. I am mentioning this because I think you phrase your question wrong- the question is not whether marriage is inevitable. The question is whether equal protection under the law for gays as a suspect class is inevitable. The answer to that is yes. Part of that is the shifting of national politics to the left. With that comes the shifting of judge appointments at just the right time in history. I do not expect Obama to appoint liberal justices, but I do expect him to appoint left of center justices and fairly centrists justices who are fairly young.
The key part of the equation is young centrists. While I want liberal, I think centrist maybe enough given the age difference (and its impact of how people view gay issues) to assure the advancement of our agenda nationally. I am putting a 10 to 15 year shelf life on the equality issue, and maybe sooner.
Sug Night
Back in ’64 I’m guessing 60% of people didn’t think Black folks should be able to vote or marry a white man/woman. This will only change at the top, as civil rights did, never by popular vote. Someone at the top has to do the right thing and the population will eventually catch up, but for those who don’t ever get it, who cares? I want equal rights, no matter who approves or disapproves, and if the law says I’m equal, then I’m equal – neysayers be damned!
The Gay Numbers
@Sug Night: That’s exactly the lesson of Vermont. That it perfectly mirrors your point as to what happens. What was “judicial activism” became mass support. That’s what terrifies the conservatives.
Srepsi
I agree with SUG NIGHT — imposed Federal equality si the way to go. Fortunately, the patchwork nature of this Stat by State nonsense works in our favor by highlighting the inequities and inconsistencies. For instance, what if in VT I marry in a church, and in the city hall, and then transfer to another state? How can I be LEGALLY married in one state and not another? How can I be LEGALLY married in my State but not my Federal tax? How can I be LEGALLY married, but not sponsor my foreign-born husband for Federal citizenship as my spouse?
The Obama administration’s “State rights” stance is absurd. But enough cases will work through the courts that they will HAVE to act. The White House’s response to Iowa, that it [paraphrasing] “Obama prefers civil unions to marriage but supports equal rights for all citizens” is also absurd and self-contradictory. I hope the U.S. government grows a pair soon and enforces equality for ALL its citizens nationwide. The U.S. government “defied the will of the people” when it forced black kids to be able to school with white kids — I hope the National Guard will accompany our own to the City Hall to marry!
doro
At least with black people there is a sense of shame and guilt that comes with being a racist, people truly feel bad at how blacks were treated back in the day and to some extend still being treated, I guess because “it’s not a sin to be an ethnic minority” but with us , the bigots have no shame or regret in hating us or comparing us to pedophiles because in their minds they believe we are living in sin. This troubles me deeply. I work in a public school system where there is zero tolerance for racism in the school board, but boy you should hear what they say about gay folks daily. I think people need to understand that we are born who we are and we do not choose tp be who we are . Period
atdleft
@Sug Night: Good point, Sug. It’s just too bad that more states can’t have a sane system like Iowa’s or Vermont’s. Hopefully, the CA Supremes will recognize this. It’s insane to demand that fundamental civil rights for a historically oppressed minority be allowed only when supported by the majority.
Still, I hope we’ll soon see majority support for marriage equality in more states just in case… š
atdleft
@Forrest: You may be right about Iowa now, but I bet attitudes will start changing once marriages happen, just like change happened in Massachusetts.
Also, I’m not too sure about your forecast for CA. Remember this:
http://www.ocprogressive.com/diary/356/
http://www.thecaliforniafamilylawblog.com/tp-081230204856/post-090326084754.shtml
Now maybe you’re right. Maybe the court is too afraid to overturn H8. The fact of the matter is that we don’t know. I just think the corporate media have been way too irresponsible in trying to predict what the court will do when they are just as much in the dark as we are.
atdleft
@atdleft: Btw, let’s also remember that this is possible-
That’s why we must be prepared to act, no matter what happens in court. They may go our way (again), or they may not. Even though our rights shouldn’t be threatened by an initiative campaign, we must be ready to win one next year just in case.
The Gay Numbers
@doro: Your statement is historically false regarding African-Americans and the white response to race. Crack open a history book before making such an absurd statement.
MadProfessah
It’s doubtful that 5% is a legislative tipping point, but it’s a good start. It’s worth noting that when CA got marriage last year, it by itself represented 11-12% of the United States’ population. It was one of the largest jurisdiction in the world to have gay marriage (behind Spain, 38m and South Africa, 48m) with 33 million people.
Vermont, as stunning as it is, is a state with 600k people. That’s basically one of Los Angeles’ MANY suburbs, or about the population
of San Francisco.
I’m looking to see when NY, NJ or one of the other “top 10 in population” states has marriage equality….then we may have reached a tipping point.
Thank you Japhy for ackowledging that before Prop 8 many people were not engaged with the community. Many of us WERE (and ARE) and have been, for *decades*. We welcome you to the ranks and look forward to your contributions to the movement.
atdleft
@MadProfessah: And thank you for letting us in as we “newbies” become more active. And while you’re right about 5%, I want to make another point about 5%. If we change the hearts and minds of just 5% of CA voters in the next 18 months, either Prop H8 will be overturned next year or another homophobic initiative is defeated then if the court beats the voters to the punch. While it was so painful at first to see the CA election results, I’ve been feeling more upbeat ever since I started looking at the city and precinct results in Orange County. I now know what to do to get that 5% change here, and I hope Courage Campaign and the other grassroots equality groups doing voter outreach can find out the same in the rest of the state.
InExile
Our equality meaning equality for all can only be achieved through the Federal Government. If just states pass marriage their will still be some states that deny citizens gay rights. Also, we will still be left out of the federal rights such as equal taxation, immigration for our spouses, and all the other rights that fall under federal law. Our focus should shift to federal now while we still have democratic majorities in both the House & Senate as well as the executive branch. We have no guarantee that the powers will not shift to the right during our next election.
Daniel in IL
To those who are decrying Japhy as being too optimistic, may I remind you that two weeks ago, there is no way you would have convinced me that Iowa–IOWA, for the love of Pete–would be allowing gay marriage. Now, maybe Texas isn’t exactly next on the list, but the fact is that in the last seven days, we’ve gone from two states to four, with NH and NY considering it as I write this. There’s a Civil Unions bill going into the General Assembly in Illinois, and efforts to repeal DOMA are gaining more and more support in Congress.
Will we see gay marriage in all 50 states by the end of the week? Not bloody likely. Is the pace going to pick up across the nation with each victory for gay marriage? I’ll stake my Massachusetts marriage license on it. Can we afford *NOT* to do everything in our power to convince our legislators that it’s a good idea? Nope. But the fight’s worth fighting–and MUST be fought if we are to succeed. Throwing up our hands and saying, “my state is hopeless” isn’t going to do it.
If Iowa can say yes, then I think the rest of us have at least a good start. Write your congressman, your senators, your state legislators, your city council, your newspaper. It may be slow going, but slower still if we don’t try, and have just a little faith.
RLS
@The Gay Numbers: Why are your posts here always about race? Why does a post about gay marriage turn into blacks vs. gays again? Do you not think that black gays and lesbians exist? I’m really confused as to why you’re so hung up on the racial aspect of this issue.
atdleft
@Daniel in IL: Let’s keep the momentum going!
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/75th2009/Reports/History.cfm?ID=764
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/75th2009/Agendas/Senate/CL/Final/860.pdf
Nevada’s domestic partner bill will be voted on in committee this afternoon. If anyone’s in The Silver State, please contact your legislators and ask them to support the bill! š
The Gay Numbers
@RLS: I am at a lost to understand your post outside of you are fucked in the head so you process information in way that prevents you from understanding basic argument structures.
I used a historical example of how American politics works regarding equal protection to analogize the trajectory of civil rights actions in America, and, in which regions, we can expect our efforts to stall before federal action must be taken. That statement had little to do with African Americans other than understanding what we gays can expect. It was not a black versus gays comment.
Wow, I am truly at lost to address the illogics of your comment. The one person along this thread who did try to makes it black-versus-gays by arguing gay suffering is worse than prior black suffering – I corrected their inaccurate statement on race because a) it was false and b) it was trying to pit race against sexual orientation. There is no us versus them in my comments. If you think there is, there’s something wrong with your reasoning skills.
Jonathan
@RLS: It has nothing to do with gays vs. blacks, I don’t think, it’s about comparing the two civil rights struggles and recognizing when misinformed ‘mos get it wrong.
It doesn’t help that Queerty is pretty white… Just take a look at the models chosen in MG etc. (minus today, ha).
The Gay Numbers
@Jonathan: More importantly, I wasn’t saying gays versus blacks. I was using the black civil rights struggle as a model for understanding what we can look forward to going forward in the gay civil rights struggle. Since the point is how majorities in different regions react to progress (regardless of the majority), there is no conflict there other than the one produced in RLS’s fucked up imagination.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers: I think Doro’s point was that the social stigma attached to open racism doesn’t exist with homophobia. And considering that I just listened to a guest on Diane Rehm respond to a caller by referencing the vague “negative effects” on children being raised in same-sex households, and lisened as he avoided any acknowledgement that the benefits of marriage were not available under contract law (to say nothing of how costly and complicated contractual arrangements would be for couples who have no other choice), I do think Doro has a point. This is without even going into the open comparisons made by Warren to pedophilia, incest and bestiality. Or polling that consistently shows that an overwhelming majority of white Americans are comfortable with black politicians representing them, while comparatively low numbers are OK with a gay man in the same position (there are no, to my knowledge, openly gay politicians who have statewide seats). Or to polls showing that an overwhelming majority are now comfortable with interracial marriage, while a majority as late as 2007 believed homosexualty was “immoral.”
So, yes, crack open the history books. You’ll find sodomy laws right there with slavery, but the social stigma attached to racism is undeniable, and there’s no comparative stigma attached to homophobia.
Chitown Kev
@Alec:
No openly gay politicians with statewide seats? What do you mean by that? Governors and Secrataries of States?
Jaroslaw
the Gay Numbers – please explain your statement “historically false” on post #16. Many White people DO feel bad about the past, Doro stated Blacks were treated badly in the past and to some extent still are.
And Doro goes further to state he doesn’t see the situation changing for Gays in the same way as one’s race isn’t a choice but religion can always make us out to be sinners….
What is inaccurate?
I’ll be happy to be corrected, but Doro didn’t say Gay suffering is worse than racial suffering did he? Or are you referring to RLS in your third paragraph of #23 “the one person…”
Jaroslaw
Alec got his comment in while I was typing mine, much better said!
And Gay Numbers – I still overwhelmingly like your posts!
Alec
@Chitown Kev: Governors, secretaries of state, attorney general seats, senate seats.
I take that back. There are two examples I am familiar with: Justices Rives Kistler and Virginia Linder, both of the Oregon Supreme Court. But those are nonpartisan seats and when Kistler won his election campaign only after being appointed. Moreover, those races usually aren’t high profile, even as they have become increasingly costly. Moreover, in both cases, as against their opponents, they had the titles “justice” and “judge,” respectively, which often guarantee election in those campaigns.
Chitown Kev
@Jaroslaw:
well, racism is more closeted than homophobia to be sure. And even that is situational. Take some of the threads on this very blog on November 5, 2008, for instance.
The Gay Numbers
@Jaroslaw: You ask a good question, but he does not say what you describe. The problem with his construction is where he does not define where the black and gay civil rights movements are in their development.
So when he writes, “At least with black people there is a sense of shame and guilt that comes with being a racist, people truly feel bad at how blacks were treated back in the day and to some extend still being treated,” there is no indication that he gets that blacks were similarly seen as gays are now. The Bible was used to justify discrimination against blacks as it is against gays now. People were as unappologetic about their beliefs about blacks as they are about gays now. He does not mention that. Instead, he looks only at where blacks and gays are now, and tangentially mentions how people feel guilty over African American history. This glosses over that for a long time, whether his present comment is true or not, that people did not feel as they do about African Americans now.
The problem with this language for me is that it implies that gays are going to be stuck where we are now. I think the lesson from the history is the opposite if one reflects on it accurately and understands where gays are. To me, we as gays are where African Americans were in the 60s-90s with shifting attitudes about African Americans. In many ways, our movement is moving at a faster clip of development than the African American movement,but in other ways, slower.
Thus, when he says this, “zero tolerance for racism in the school board, but boy you should hear what they say about gay folks daily. I think people need to understand that we are born who we are and we do not choose tp be who we are . Period,” I am stunned as an educator he does not realize that a similar trajectory happened over time with race. The value of understanding that is to realize that if we push hard enough on gay rights we can eventually achieve the same result of how people see gays and their attitudes toward us.
I find the argument “things never change” pessistic given the example. There is a reason for realism. Namely, that even today AAs still struggle, but we can also find some signs of hope that there can be advance me from the example given.
Steve
I think DORO had an excellent point. homophobia is widely acceptable and racism is NOT. Racism is frowned upon by many people. If Rick WaRren had said an offensive thing about blacks, he could not have been called a nice guy by Larry King let alone being given an audience by CNN. Blacks are treated with kitty gloves because most white folks including myself feel guilty or mad if we see racism towards ethnic minorities, but LGBT people are treated like animals because of those religions that condemn us and people think we choose the “lifestyle”, and I am often shocked at how many people don’t think that gay marriage is a civil rights issue. DORO is right that we need outreach programs to educate people that we are no different than anyone else, we just want to be able to love like everyone else
Chitown Kev
@Steve:
uh, I am gay and black. My blackness was not treated with “kitty gloves” on this blog (and many others) in the aftermath of the passage of Prop 8 (even though I live in Illinois). Everything else in your post I agree with, even though this is a discussion that I’d rather not have at this time (the comparison itself is not offensive, I would debate, though, just how unacceptable racism is).
Steve
@THE GAY NUMBERS
YOU MISS THE POINT. People use religion to justify hating us. If they continue to believe what their religions tell them, they will never accept us . They think we choose to live an immoral life. People don’t think its a sin to be born an AA. You are in denial my dear. I live in SAN FRANCISCO and I hear this all the time. Even the AA, hispanics etc who know discrimination also use the Bible to tell us that we are not part of their struggle.
Alec
@Chitown Kev: I think the point is that the social stigma attached to formal racism and racist beliefs is much, much more pervasive than the stigma attached to homophobia. You can compare it to sexism, which fits somewhere in the middle. That still leaves some questions about institutionalized racism and its acceptance open (sentencing disparity in crack versus powder cocaine and other disparate impact issues, for example), but I find it hard to argue with the point that it is less acceptable to be a racist than it is to be a homophobe.
The Gay Numbers
@Steve: Your comments are historically false. Read amongst others Rev. Gomes of Harvard who discusses the Biblical use of stories like Hamm to justify both slavery and bigotry against African Americans. By, the way, it’s not been just African Americans, but also using the Bible as the basis, including now, of gender discrimination.
“Who demand the ballot for woman? They are not the lovers of God, nor are they believers in Christ, as a class. There may be exceptions, but
the majority prefer an infidel’s cheer to the favor of God and the
love of the Christian community. It is because of this tendency that
the majority of those who contend for the ballot for woman cut loose
from the legislation of Heaven, from the enjoyments of home, and drift
to infidelity and ruin.” ā Justin Fulton, 1869, in opposition to
women’s right to vote.
“[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty Godā¦ it is sanctioned
in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelationā¦ it has
existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest
civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.”
āJefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red,
and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the
interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such
marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not
intend for the races to mix. ” ā Statement by Virginia trial judge in
1959 case that led to 1967 U.S. Supreme Court striking down laws in 16
states that prohibited interracial marriage
We are part of a greater struggle for equality. There is really nothing unique about the arguments we see leveled against us as gays.
ANTHONY
I am mad that illegal immigrants and mexican in my state of California have more rights that I have. I am a 50 year old while male with a great job and even the guy who collects our trash has no respect for me. I need my rights now!
The Gay Numbers
@Alec: We are talking past each other. No one questions what you describe, but in context, it misses the point of progress. Looking statically at a fixed point in history (as in at this very minute) to see whether our trajectory regarding homophobia is fixed seems wrong to me. Even on the issue of homophobia itself, where we were 10 years ago is nothing like attitudes now.
Chitown Kev
@Steve:
well, then I could go to AA discrimination against hispanics (and vice versa), that’s racism that is not biblically based but it exists.
I could also argue that in an age where the Internet is 1) easily accessible and 2) affords some anonyimity (sp?), that racial prejudice has become more openly acceptabile, at least in the webworld.
But homophobia is based in monotheistic religious beliefs, you are correct (and so was racism). As society becomes less religious (and it is) and, therefore, less attacjed to notions of “sin” then homophobia will decrease. Just as the stigma of being a single or divorced woman has decreased.
Alec
@ANTHONY: I said it when internet crazy Jasmyne Cannick said it, and I’ll say it to you: That is an unbelievably stupid way to look at it. I can assure you that their ability to get a marriage certificate (there are also gay immigrants, both documented and those here without documentation, btw; some of them have partners and can’t stay, where they might otherwise be eligible) is not making life a bed of roses for them.
Chitown Kev
@Alec:
if you said “openly racist” then the post would ring true.
And I actually think that sexism (which is biblically based) may be a better trajectory to look at in this case.
Chitown Kev
Oh, boy, this thread is going down the tubes, the oppression Olympics has begun. Back on the topic, please.
chuck
Iowa and Vermont dont represent main stream America. They are all huddle up all winter because it is so cold and dont have a clue as to what is going on with the world. This is nothing to get excited about but if Obama were to dump Michelle and hook up with Ru Paul then that would be something to talk about. I think they would make a glamorous pair. Ru Paul is definitely more attractive than Michelle.
steve
@ ANTHONY
WOW! i am speechless!
@ CHITOWN KEV. I did not mean to offend you.
Anthony in Nashville
I’m happy for VT and IA but as long as more than half of the population thinks LGBTs are “sinners” and discrimination against us is justifable, I do not believe we’ll see more than 25 percent of the states offering gay marriage.
Perhaps this will lead to a concentration of LGBT people in these “lucky” states, a nation within a nation.
This will eventually come down to the Supreme Court, as the logistics of each state having their own rules is too confusing.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: I think that’s the case when people shut down their analytical skills in favor of “I am more oppressed than they are.’ The real lessons from other groups is how they managed to prevail and what that says about our present struggle. We know that attitudes shifted for them, and therefore, arguments about gays not ever seeing any progress are likely to be wrong because we have these other examples. In other words, it’s not about oppression Olympics, but how to overcome. That’s the lesson. Like I said, none of the arguments we see now are new. That also should give us some confidence that we can overcome them.
Chitown Kev
@steve:
I’m not offended at all.
Don’t assume that I was speaking only of white-black racism, though. I have been known to get very disgusted by manifestations of racism by AAs at some Hispanics and even Arabs (which is VERY open at times and very acceptable, and vice versa is true).
The sad thing about Anthony is that as a gay man, he has more “rights” than a gay man in Louisiana or Mississippi.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
Exactly. Religion is on the wane even in this country; that alone is helping in stigmatizing homophobia in much the same sense that racism is stigmatized.
Chitown Kev
@Anthony in Nashville:
A Great Migration. Gee, where have I heard that before?
Of course, Iowa is a short drive or bus trip away…
Anthony in Nashville
@Chitown Kev:
Ha, I hadn’t thought of the comparison! But I can see a comparable movement among LGBT folk. I was under the impression that the influx of LGBT people into places like LA, San Francisco, NYC, etc. was a migration in itself.
NO obama
THIS IS HOW i SEE IT. GAY MALES HATE BLACK PEOPLE, BLACK PEOPLE ALSO HATE GAYS PEOPLE . YOU GUYS ARE EVEN, END OF STORY. WHY KEEP COMPARING THE TWO GROUPS. ETHNICITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEXUAL ORIENTATION.YOU DO NOT NEED EACH OTHERS APPROVAL. JUST BE CONTENT THAT THE TWO GROUPS DESPISE EACH OTHER AND I COULDN’T CARE LESS WHAT EITHER GROUPS THINK. LETS MOVE ON.
Chitown Kev
@NO obama:
Thomas Monson, is that you?
Aaron J.
Oh, dear.
strumpetwindsock
I don’t believe there is any religious distinction at the root of racism and homophobia – or more accurately, that the distinction is a lot deeper.
Certainly the bigots’ main justification is their flimsy interpretation of scripture, but there are plenty of examples of people who don’t need religion to hate us.
Unfortunately humans are by nature xenophobic. I doubt we loved everyone and only changed when we read it in the Bible. People who are inclined to listen to those old urges will make up whatever excuse they need – it’s unnatural, it causes disease, God doesn’t like it.
Look at it this way, and it’s easy to understand why homophobia is more ingrained. We are programmed to naturally mistrust someone who has a different culture, language or colour than us. We naturally like our own country or sports team better, even if we don’t like hockey. Someone having a different sexual orientation is even harder to understand though, and more offensive (for those inclined to take offense). Some people find it repulsive in a way skin colour or language is not.
I am not saying some religion doesn’t actively foster homophobia. I am just saying I don’t think it is the root cause.
As a matter of fact, because religion makes a person consider right and wrong, some faiths actually produced movements to end discrimination.
osocubano
@NO obama:
Speak for yourself.
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: Religion is the justification rather than the cause of prejudices. The whole point of me mentioning the various quotes above about women and African-Americans, and how Biblical text was used against both groups, is to illustrate that there is great history of people’s prejudices being justified through their faith. Therefore, we can overcome those prejudices if we fight for it.
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
I agreed with your post, and I intended my argument to be along the same lines.
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: I know we are in agreement. I am just adding my thoughts to what you said to provide further clarification. Maybe it wasn’t necessary? but, that was my goal š
lawrence
I know alot of aethists who hate us too. What’s their excuse?. Religion is just part of their justification for homophobia. Most people just think that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong. We are treated way worse than any other minority group and that wont change regardless of wether we are allowed to marry or not. I am tired of living in this country.
This is a very popular president, if he can advocate for marriage equality then people can listen coz people believe in him, He is just afraid to make a statement regarding marriage equality because of I guess conservative backlash? I love this president but I wish He can grow a pair and do the right thing. Gays are being treated like shit worldwide!
The Gay Numbers
Well- I see this is becoming a pity party, and as someone as described- the oppression Olympics. “None has suffered in the history of the world as greatly as we done suffered.” I get that from African Americans about race. I get that my Jewish friends. I get that from women. Hell, you hear the same from Christians (who swear they are the worse victims in human history). You even have WASP males bitching about how oppressed they are, and that everyone else has got it better. I guess it was only a matter of time before it became the mantra of some parts of the gay community.
Pragmatist
@atdleft: I agree that Orange County wasn’t too far off. But what about Riverside, San Bernardino, etc.? Orange County never was as socially conservative as legend held. (It’s too focused on materialism to be deeply committed to issues of morality.) :-p
Jaroslaw
#32 The Gay Numbers – thanks for responding, I think personally it is self evident by DORO’s remarks that he does get it otherwise why would there be self-reproach for being a racist? However, it is possible I read into it more than there is.
For sure, if he has more to say, though, I’ll let him speak for himself!
Johanna
@Forrest: I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, Iowa is in NO WAY “conservative” in the traditional sense. Conservative implies that we are set in our ways and that we are resistant to change – yet we outlawed slavery, segregation and desegregated schools decades, and in some cases, close to a century, before the United States did.
Yes, there are conservatives here. There are everywhere. The difference is, in Iowa, the general attitude is that what is private should not be controlled by the government, or in the very least, banned by it (i.e., marriage).
Seriously, we encourage people to come visit! It’s really fun here, despite the dull image the midwest is traditionally given
Kid A
@lawrence: I’ve rarely heard a non-believer say anti-gay sentiments; I’m not trying to challenge you, but I’d like to hear comments you’ve heard. As a rationalist myself, I can’t think of a secular or biological reason that homosexuality should be considered a bad thing.
BrianZ
@doro: Ooo I kind of like the thought that a lot of people will always see me as a sinner. I’ve always wanted to be THAT dirty-boy!
Seriously, I think I stopped giving a shit whether someone else thought I was going to hell a long time ago. Some people will never change their mind and that’s fine. How they can rationalize their behavior in the name of their God is beyond me, but ultimately I don’t give a shit.
Standing up and declaring that we will not settle for less than the same rights as are granted other citizens affords us the high moral ground and the ability to sleep at night knowing that at the end of the day … we have better sex.
lileasy
@The Gay Numbers: Hey, Gay Numbers, instead of insulting someone (i.e., Doro) by saying she needs to educate herself before speaking, why don’t you explain where she went wrong? It would be kinder and more civil.
Audrina
Look, the right wing freaks hate all kinds of minorities, be it ethnic minorities or gays. but the truth is that at least they hide their racism. Sean Hannity for example sorrounds himself with black folks on his panel who are spewing the same hate like he is. so he can say look I hate gay people but don’t you dare call me a racist. Another example: Rick warren says horrid things about us then hides under the umbrella of I help poor folks in Africa. MLK and GHANDI are my heroes and America instantly buys that Rick Warren is not that but because at least he is not a racist. I is a taboo to be considered racist but it is ok to be homophobic. TALK ABOUT DOUBLE STANDARDS!
The Gay Numbers
@lileasy: Did you read the rest of the posts or did you stop at my first response? I explain further down when someone asked me the explain what I mean. My guess is from your response you stopped at the first one. Next time you are in the mood to lecture me about social ettquette, you may want to take your own advice.
The Gay Numbers
@Jaroslaw: What you describe is entirely possible in terms of what he or she meant, and your views are entirely defensible, but on the face of what s/he said, there is no way to know for certain. What is certain is that several posters along the thread seized on her statements to turn this into the Oppression Olympics in which no group suffers as much as gays suffer. It’s not a conversation anymore about whether we will move forward. The irony of course is that we are moving forward, if slowly. But you would get that from reading some of the subsequent other responses. Again, I prefer your views. They demonstrate the complexity fo the situation.
rogue dandelion
wow someone one must have been very provocative-70 comments?
i don’t feel like reading them.
maybe we can push it past a hundred!
jesus is black and has sex with mohammed all the time in heaven,he is versatile- discuss!
atdleft
OK, I don’t even want to get anywhere near the “Oppression Olympics” discussion going on here. I just want to share some good news. Nevada’s one step closer to equality!
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/apr/08/bill-extend-rights-same-sex-couples-advances/
The DPs for everyone bill just passed the Senate Commerce & Labor Committee, and will soon be up for a full Senate vote. It passed 4-2 in committee, so if we hold onto all the Dems and pick up a couple of Repubs we may even get a veto-proof majority! But given Gov. Gibbons’ recent “marital problems”…
http://clintonistasforobama.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-nevadas-republican-governor.html
I doubt he really wants to pick a fight over this. š
Chitown Kev
@Audrina:
But Rick Warren is both homophobic and racist, the way I see it. There’s plenty he can do in the States to combat AIDS, the fact that he doesn’t do so reeks of homophobia. Never mind all the other shit.
The fact that he feels the need to go to Africa, while it looks good on the surface, he’s proseltyzing his religion over there (and much of the religious right is, and they are destroying cultures that have already been decimated byrolonialism. Sounds rather Kiplingish to me. Or, in another word, racist.
strumpetwindsock
@Chitown Kev:
I’m sure he smells what he thinks is a more gullible flock grazing in greener pastures (yeah… racist and colonialist).
But I’m sure he also wants to cordon off apiece for himself in case he burns his bridges over here.
The Gay Numbers
@atdleft: Cool.
HYHYBT
Anyone see a path to equality in the state of Georgia, or others like it, other than through the U.S. Supreme Court, or a repeal of DOMA allowing us to import marriage from other states?
Josh
@Alec: Minnesota has an openly gay senator. I’m a bit hazy on his name, but I know we have one.
Josh
@NO obama: You know, I think there is a direct correlation to a person’s IQ and their ability to press the shift key. You’re a prime example of that, aren’t you?
Jaroslaw
#70 – thank you so much! and Brian Z – I don’t care if people think I’m a sinner either, but these people DO influence public opinion AND they vote, so it can’t be completely dismissed! Unfortunately. There are a lot more of them than us, remember.
Chitown Kev
@Josh:
Yeah, and she’s a traitor Republican ho too, who has said that she would vote no on marriage equality.
Leisha Camden
As a straight woman I have to say that it’s so sad that there is so much discussion about this issue. I mean, generally. It shouldn’t be necessary. It is so sad that there are so many people who feel it’s their duty to make life more difficult for others. Why not focus on the good stuff??
In my country we have had gay marriage for a while now and nothing much has happened. Our society has not collapsed and we’ve all been getting on with our lives pretty much as we’ve always done. š
Jaroslaw
#81 Leisha – what country is that? As to why do people don’t focus on the good things – follow the money seems to be the answer to almost everything. The Religious Right, among many many others find a cause and promote it to death while simultaneously gathering followers and money. Many of the TV evangelists who are the most wealthy got there in part by being homophobic. When it no longer works, which seems to the direction we’re moving in, they will find another cause.