DUMBASSES — Over the the weekend, San Francisco finally had its open town-hall forum where gays and lesbians had an opportunity to ask leaders of the No on 8 campaign what went wrong. The event, which blogger Michael Petrelis had been demanding for months, comes nearly five months after Proposition 8 passed by a narrow (and winnable) margin of voters and after a series of town halls, conference calls and meetings with No on 8 leaders that have gone from blaming the opposition, to defiant justification of tactics, to admission of failure and in the case of one gay rights leader, the decision to never work on a marriage campaign again. The big story is, however, is that even after all this time, we’re still finding out new ways the No on 8 campaign screwed up big time. Take for instance, the story of the No on 8 campaign and the open-letter from Barack Obama that clearly pointed out his support of gay rights that they never used.
You may remember that during the campaign, Barack Obama’s position was muddled enough that the Yes on 8 campaign printed fliers with his image pointing out that he opposed gay marriage. Which is why the nominee wrote an open letter to the Alice B. Toklas Democratic Club where he clearly stood up against Prop. 8, saying:
“I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states.
For too long. issues of LGBT rights have been exploited by those seeking to divide us. It’s time to move beyond polarization and live up to our founding promise of equality by treating all our citizens with dignity and respect. This is no less than a core issue about who we are as Democrats and as Americans.
I want to congratulate all of you who have shown your love for each other by getting married these last few weeks.”
What did the No on 8 campaign do with this letter? Nothing.
At the forum, hired campaign strategist Steve Smith admitted it was a boneheaded move (emphasis ours):
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
Smith also acknowledged that the campaign should have used then-presidential candidate Barack Obama’s stated opposition to Prop 8. Instead, little use was made of Obama’s opposition in a letter last June to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club, and right before Election Day the Yes on 8 campaign sent out a mailer featuring Obama’s image and quotes that he is opposed to same-sex marriage.
“That was a close call,” Smith said. “Maybe we should have.”
You think?
Kat Kendall, of the National Center for Lesbian Rights admitted, said that in the wake of the debacle, “I’m never going to be involved in another campaign.” Geoff Kors of Equality California acknowledges the decision to rely solely on an outside strategist was “a huge mistake.” The angry SF crowd, urged on by Petrelis, all but called for their heads.
And why not? One of the things we’ve done at Queerty since Prop. 8 is look at these leaders and give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ve listened to them explain the difficulty of running against a well-funded opponent in a ballot-initiative race they did not create.
The excuses — and I don’t use that word lightly — range from a lack of funding to a lack of communication to a a lack of openness.
Some, like Kors and Kendall, have been forthcoming in the mistakes they made and have vowed to do better. Others, like Lori Jean of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center, maintain they “honestly don’t know how they could have run a better campaign” and angrily defy any inquiry in what went wrong in the campaign. Other groups, like the Human Rights Campaign and the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force, both charged with field operations, have stood by silently escaping scrutiny, while more responsible leaders have taken then lion’s share of the heat.
What possible reason does a gay, lesbian or transgender person have to donate a single dollar to any of them? I can’t think of one. Can you?
alan brickman
Don’t just blame the haters….half of the gays in california didn’t go out ot vote too!! And with idiots like this who needs homophobes???
blake
Uh, oops???!!!
How many gays condemned Obama before and after the vote on 8? Let’s see a letter from the Democratic nominee championing gay rights directed to help against the Prop 8 debacle.
How many gays have quested Obama’s commitment to gays, attacking him as “treasonous”? Hmmm???
blake
@alan brickman:
Yep. Fifty-percent of eligible gays sat their butts at home. I continue to ask this question, if legislation were proposed to strip Asian-Americans of their right to marriage, do you think 50% of their eligible voters would have refused to vote?
Sadly, this is old news. Instead of focusing on scape goats and assigning blame, we have to focus on the future. In-fighting is just going to waste time and make us lose focus all the more. We’ll get dispirited and give up. Time to apologize and refocus.
LarryPDX
I continue to be confused as to why Queerty lists the HRC as one of the groups to blame for Prop 8. HRC makes it clear that they take the lead on national issues and rely on local leaders to provide guidance on state issues.
As anyone that has worked on a state campaign with HRC knows they provide money, lists of supporters to contact, and additional staff to assist. But the strategy and tactics are intended to be provided by leaders from the state most familiar with local issues.
Sebbe
I don’t live in California (thankfully), but weren’t the results 52.3 to 47.7, 4.5 percentage points I don’t consider that narrow, it is more like a landslide politically.
Japhy is right, we need to evaluate which lgbt organization we are earmarking our charity dollars towards. I am focusing mine in New England personally, although I did make a donation to the group producing Rent in Michigan that got screwed.
Landon Bryce
The most offensive thing I hope ever to read on Queerty:
“One of the things we’ve done at Queerty since Prop. 8 is look at these leaders and give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ve listened to them explain the difficulty of running against a well-funded opponent in a ballot-initiative race they did not create.”
That’s a lie. Queerty has been unfairly critical of the leaders of No on 8, leading of the charge of “blame the victim” quadrant. You have written over and over and ov er and over about how horrible they are and how much all gay people should hate them.
And now you are blaming them for the fact that Obama made his “opposition” to Prop 8 deliberately vague and understated.
He is not traitor on gay issues: he has yet to be on our side in any significant way.
But I’m sure you blame the Prop 8 leaders for that, too.
Fuck you.
If you cannot even ackn
Japhy Grant
@LarryPDX: It’s a good question, Larry. HRC was responsible for raising money for the Prop. 8 campaign and ran some of the field operations in Northern California. We’ve been remiss in pointing out HRC’s direct involvement in the Prop. 8 campaign– and that’s something we’ll be correcting in the future.
I’ve talked to many of the leaders in different Prop. 8 groups and while they all blame each other, I’ve heard a lot of internal scorn that HRC raised so little money, compared to smaller organizations and I’ve heard that many of them think it’s unfair HRC has been left off the hook for their involvement.
MARK m
Maybe they should have used it, but it’s not that simple. Barak’s opposition to us having equal rights was very easy to use, too. He is a fair weather friend at best. A mixed race person who opposes my right to a legal marriage? I have no time for him, or the white liberals in their priuses and birkenstocks who ran to support him.
Sebbe
@Japhy Grant – In regards to HRC and how little they raised in comparison to smaller organizations. Could it be that people choose to donate to the HRC on national issues and to donate to smaller local groups on an issue in California? I don’t know. Just wondering?
Faeelin
I don’t understand. Obama has gone on the record opposing gay marriage. Had they used it, he probably would have clarified his stance by reiterating his opposition to it.
Chitown Kev
@MARK m:
Both can be true. Obama courted homophobes to win the election AND No On 8 fucked up.
Remember, one of our “fag rags” in Chicago didn’t “discover” that 1996 questionnaire where Obama said he supported gay marriage until after the election.
So, maybe it’s a fuck up, maybe No On 8 (and others) tanked to give the election to Obama, even if it meant losing gay marriage in California.
Bill Perdue
… gays have quested Obama’s commitment to gays, attacking him as “treasonous”.
As well we should.
The next question is did the Obama campaign order No on 8 to downplay the letter to avoid embarrassing Obama by pointing out what a hustling opportunist he is.
First, in Chicago he’s for same sex marriage and it cost him the votes of bigots so now he’s against it. In a huge effort organized by Dubious Dubois, his Minister of Pandering, Obama began an ‘outreach” campaign to bigots, organizing thousands of cult based supporter groups nationwide. Then he personally decided that GLBT would not be mentioned in the Dem platform. Then he dropped the bombshell “gawd’s in the mix” that ended any hope of winning against 8. And in the meantime he issued a timid letter opposing 8 on purely tactical grounds, because it’s a state constitutional amendment.
Martha
Lambda Legal gets my gay dollars. None of these fat cats do anymore.
Did you notice they upped the minimun required for Aids lifecycle to $3000 per rider?
In these tough times no less — and they wonder why they have fewer participants.
again- out of touch, full of ego and greed
ps Obama has 3 years to acknowlege gays with federal marriage or he will not be seeing my vote. I vote gay from now on — and for big bold gay candidats who take risks and don’t suck up to bigots.
Bill Perdue
@alan brickman: What’s the source for this? Do you have a link?
Chitown Kev
@Bill Perdue:
And yes, it did cost him votes and even an election in Illinois in 2000. After that Congressional race, he has not been the same, sadly.
Stictly from a Cynical political perspective and an observer of Illinois politics, I get it. I’m disgusted by it, but I get it.
Chitown Kev
@Chitown Kev:
The 2000 race against Bobby Rush, this was one of the reasons Obama lost that primary. He had the money but not the black vote. Whispering campaigns about him being uppity, Ivy-League educated, half-white, a tool for Hyde Park white liberals, it was awful.
Chitown Kev
Why did I refer back to me? LOL.
Need another cup of coffee!
blake
At this point, I am grateful for whatever efforts the No on 8 campaign did try. They goofed in many areas but they at least tried to fight. That is something that apparently 50% of eligible gay voters were unable or unwilling to do by refusing to show up at the polls.
Giving the No on 8 leaders credit for trying to help is something that they do deserve and are owed. No matter their faults, they were not prepared for the well organized and funded efforts of the Evangelical/Catholic/Mormon/Republican juggernaut.
(P.S. I still think that whoever thought of those lame Charlie David and his lover ads should be banned from creating any further PSAs.)
Sebbe
@blake – Do you have a link for the ad on youtube? We obviously didn’t get to see them here on the East Coast.
MadProfessah
Japhy I’m surprised you fell for this.It’s simply not true that NO ON 8 never used Obama’s position on 8, including the letter you are talking about.
Everyone knew that Obama opposed Proposition 8, although he also supported marriage between a man and a woman. I believe the campaign felt that raising his opposition to Prop 8 would have also raised the profile of Obama’s position in opposition to marriage equality and thus would have been a net loss or tie for us (I disagree with this assessment!) The following points fed into that decision:
1) This is a written statement about opposition to marriage constitutional amendments in general so his voice with the message “NO ON 8” can not be used in a soundbite in a television or radio ad
2) This letter was widely reported all over the LGBT blogosphere and LGBT press and it has been available for linkage since June 2008 from the Alice B Toklas Democratic Club website
3) The NO ON 8 asked, begged, pleaded with Obama-Biden 2008 to use their image in NO ON 8 ads and also urged them to contact the YES ON 8 campaign with a cease&desist letter for their use of Obama-Biden as supporters of “Protect[ing] Traditional Marriage–Yes on 8.” Obama-Biden gave them nothing to use and refused to contact the Yes campaign.
4) In the last weekend of the campaign, NO ON 8 changed all their web advertsing to include images of Obama with the quotes “divisive” and “discriminatory.”
ousslander
Yes they messed up but was anyon e else jumping up to take their place and lead or did most sit on their collective ass waiting for someone to lead? If you don’t like the job they are doing , do it yourselves!
ABout the “letter”, if it did come out in support of the gays, they probably thought it would hurt him in the election. If he is so supportive why not speak out or are we the red headed step children to be kept locked away and not to be seen by company?
Chitown Kev
@MadProfessah:
Question, MP.
I am outside California, so I don’t know when the Yes On 8 robocalls using Obama’s voice began. At any point did No On 8 ask the Obama-Biden campaign to issue a cease and desist on those robocalls as well? (Biden did ask for a stop to the McCain robocalls.)
Mike
Sebbe: let us, however, remember that Proposition 22, before 8, won by a 62 to 38 margin. I’m not disputing your perception, it is just important to remind folks that we can continue to progress on this issue.
Landon: actually, Obamma started off on “our side” in Chicago, fully endorsing same-sex marriage, but then shifted his opinion in order to make headway in the national election. I’m not being critical here, I’m just pointing to fact. Sadly, it would be very difficult for a candidate to fully endorse our rights and ascend to the presidency just now. I just hate to say that, because I also understand that, aside from Kuncinich, no one has really tried, and Kucinich may have lost in the primary season for any number of reasons outside of his gay marriage stance. Still, there is great fear, and lets face it, significant homophobia continues to exist among Americans.
As for our leaders, those who lead any movement open themselves up to criticism, because they are in positions that require the trust of their supporters. It is easy to understand the anger, but I personally believe that there is plenty of blame to go around.
I absolutely believe, having worked on the streets here in California, in that old adage, (that Alan eludes to in the very first posting here), when you point a finger, three point back at you. I cannot begin to count the number of people I approached to help us at rallies, on phones, to speak to family members–even to put a simple lawn sign on their lawns, who just couldn’t be bothered. One would think that after our defeat, our call to action would be sustained by the clear message that was sent to us that we are not equal and worthy of our civil rights. To refresh our collective memory: we are expected to pay our taxes, to be law abiding citizens, but submit to the fact that we are not entitled to the same protections and recognition that everyone else in society is, including prison bound murderers and pedophiles. This is the fact that floors me!
In the weeks heading into the Eve of Justice Rally, held in Orange County, I called family, friends, and every gay person I knew (I know many). I sent out e-mails, posted the rally on CL, I placed a posting on my Facebook page. If I saw someone who was recognizably gay on the street, in a store, even at the register at our local Home Depot, I handed out a flier detailing the event, and explained why it was so important to just show up. At the Orange County, CA, rally, we pulled in about 250 people, not one face was recognizable to me, and most notably absent were those whom I know protest most loudly, who complain most bitterly.
How can a movement develop when so few are willing to move? Anger is great if challenged appropriately. Be angry with politicians who don’t support us, get angry with leadership that fails us, but channel that anger and ask yourself what you can do to affect change.
Are you just too tired after work to attend a rally? Think of it as exercise, build up some stamina and get out there without making excuses. Are you out to your friends and family? Come out to everyone. Are you reticent to hold your partner’s hand in a place that is safe, but you are uncomfortable to do so because you don’t wish to offend anyone? Grab your partners hand. This is a battle about our rights, but also about our relationships. Does your family insist on introducing your significant other as your “friend?” Correct them right there on the spot. Get your relationship out of the closet and into the light of day.
Please work at loving yourselves more and respecting on another, despite your differences. Do not waste a single moment from now on living beneath a cloak of shame. If you are in a relationship, congratulations and be proud. It is hard enough for anyone in modern society to maintain a relationship, but for gay people who lack the support of society, of friends and of family, it is a badge of honor to conduct one and make it work. Summon up every fiber of pride you can for the hard work you are doing just to conduct a relationship against all odds.
When we have all achieved this level of conduct in our personal lives, when we live opennly, honestly and with pride for surviving a society that does all it can to shame us–and this is something to be proud of, folks–then and only then should we focus such an imbalanced amount of anger to others who fail to meet our expectations.
If we meet our own expectations, if we all affect change in our own personal lives, among our friends, family and neighbors, then we will have already won the battle and those who fail us will be relatively unimportant.
Start today by coming up with one thing about you and your experience as a gay person to be proud of. Jot it down, applaud yourself for it, boost your self esteem, and work at the other things that you can improve upon. Please, please learn to love yourselves and be very proud to be a survivor of a society who would cast you away.
Chitown Kev
@Mike:
Mike, a slight correction.
Obama shifted his position between his loss to Bobby Rush in 2000 and his Senate run in 2004. At that time, though, there was nothing about “god in the mix” and he didn’t wear his religion on his sleeve. In fact, Obama was pretty explicit about the homophobia in African American and ethnic Catholic communities as the reason to take a slower road and to opt for civil unions instead. And he was a fierce advocate for an inclusive ENDA and talked very specifically about transgenders.
Flex
We’ve fallen for the religious, republican trap! “It was our fault that we failed.” That is bullshit! The christianists are the most hateful group ever. They have said, and done everything to prevent the legalization of gay marriage. Their hate is reckless and much more powerful than our peaceful message. In the future, they will continue with their flamboyant, hate-filled, god-fearing lies, and it will be louder than our message.
I will support future efforts to pass gay marriage, but it is absolutely bullshit that we must ask California voters for it! It is especially disgusting that we need to spend our energy, and money, fighting a bunch of religious assholes, and not having the slightest interest in religion.
We must treat the religious zealots to their own brand of poison. We must pass an amendment to ban their right to marry in California. It may not survive the legal test on the federal level, but we can pass any amendment that we choose in California, according to the California Supreme Court.
Mike
@Chitown Kev:
Thank you, Kev, for clarifying. I don’t think I was off the mark, as you noted he did shift his position, which is all I was saying. Please understand that I was saying it without judgement, because I do understand that the odds to ascend to office were already against him, and maintaining that position would almost certainly have led to defeat (though, as I noted, we can’t be 100 percent certain, because we’ve never had a White House administration support us to that extent yet).
You know from an earlier exchange that I respect both you and your pereptions, so thank you for bringing that information to light.
Landon Bryce
Mike:
I think it is unfair to blame people for not participating in a rally that seemed pointless to many and wrongheaded to others. The Supreme Court _must_ pay no attention to activity like this in making their decision– who do you think your audience was?
I can’t oppose the efforts to overturn Prop 8, but I can’t support them either. We lost the election. The legal arguments being made are specious. I think focusing on wanting to overturn an election hurts us much more in the general opinion than overzealous protesters have.
I think your friends who stayed home may have done much more to help the cause than you did. Not out of laziness, but out of thoughtfulness and respect for the political process. That they did not tell you as much may reflect more about their good manners than about their lazy politics.
And, Mike, there is no reason to believe that Obama’s support for same sex marriage then was any more principaled than his opposition now. He probably thought it would benefit him then– he has never taken a position on gay issues that was based on anything other than what would help him most politically. As a Democrat, he could not have been less supportive of gay rights and been acceptable to the majority of liberal voters. He used us to get their votes. He screws us over now to cozy up to bigots. It’s a pity he is so shitty to us: I think he’s doing a fantastic job virtually everywhere else. I am thrilled to have the first president that I actually trust and admire. I just hate living in his blindspot.
Same old, same old.
Tim in SF
I was at this meeting. Of all of the people in the audience, only THREE people expressed any anger at those cunts up on stage. Most of the question time was taken up by leaders from other queer groups, in one, giant commiseration session.
It was an awful waste of an opportunity to get some accountability, not to mention nearly three hours of my time.
Mike
@Flex:
I hear you, Flex, I do, yet we do have to accept our own responsibility as well. In all sorts of small ways, we actually further society’s oppression of us. We allow our families to get away with oppression when they introduce our other halves as “friends of,” when we are reticent to hold one anothers hands as we sit at the dinner table or walk around Disneyland, etc. Is there danger out there? Yes, but the more we hide, the less likely we are to make the gains we wish to see.
It is a bit like complaining about an errant boyfriend, before you get into supporting him through change, take a moment to reflect upon the change you can make within yourself.
The Social Conservatives have been hateful, indeed–you are absolutely right, but they don’t make up in numbers the votes that swung against us in this last battle. We can win this battle simply by reaching across and just enlightening those who voted in ignorance, through misinformation and fear.
As for limitting the rights of the religious to marry, it is simply a poor notion. We cannot escape the oppression of others while attempting to oppress. What we should do is try to reach those who have experienced the greatest amoung of prejudice in an attempt to better understand their experience, while exposing them to our own and making the argument that if our rights are so easily swept away, that theirs too could be challenged and put to a vote.
We need to resurrect and adopt an old fashioned argument that has given way to those who would too simply surrender our rights to a theocratic vision of the United States. We should, IMO, embrace the ideals of America, and remind folks that we are pro-American, believe in the ideals of civil liberties and free association, and expose religious Fundamentalism for what it really is: a threat to democracy and the foundational principles of our nation.
Chitown Kev
@Mike:
And from a political perspective, I get that. There are large swaths of redneck country in Illinois outside of Chicago. (Remember, one of the first state DOMA’s was passed in Illinois, which Obama always stated his opposition to) But Barack Obama was pretty good to the gay community in Illinois when all is said and done. That’s we the GLBT vote in Illinois was nearly 90% for Obama. But it can be frustrating watching him work for us.
Cam
@LarryPDX:
No, HRC will offer you the benefit of using their name, but won’t give you any resources and will barely grudgingly send anybody there only if they are coming to collect funds. Other than that, all HRC is worried about is which out gay celeb they can get to come to their next black tie fundraiser so they can all line up, get their pictures taken with them, and then post that picture on their Facebook page so they can show everybody how “inside” they are. Frankly we would have had more of a chance of defeating prop 8 if HRC was on the other side.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
You know, Landon, I’m not certain why my simple statement that Obamma was at one time a vocal proponent of gay marriage and later shifted his opinion would be construed has meaning anything else than just that fact. I am not endorsing that shift, nor am I suggesting that I remain unoffended at being tossed under the perverbial bus. I simply stated that I understand the motivation to abandon that position, which is not to say that I necessarily support it. Again, I was simply stating fact.
As for all the harm that I caused by attending a rally at a local Church, in conjunction with The Eve of Justice, and all the good that others did, some friends included, by staying at home, I would like to point out to you that staying at home did not work so well for those of us out here in California, in the weeks leading up to the election.
To build upon that argument, let us reflect on the recent data that supports that the protest marches immediately following the passage of Proposition 8 actually resulted in a spike in the polls that suggested an actual gain in support for those opposed to Proposition 8.
In fact, I remember the AIDs crisis in the 1980s. Many gays sat at home and wished for help, some wrote letters, and many people complained for a long time. It wasn’t until Larry Kramer organized Act UP, and brought the fight to the streets that Reagan finally spoke of the disease and that funding for medical research finally began to be released. I was a young kid at the time, and Larry Kramer completely scared me with his activism, but now that I’m older, I have to say that in many respects he is a role model. At the time, he was furious with the community’s willingness to sit at home and complain, while others were so willing to watch us die.
I respect, Landon, your choice to approach this issue as you please. Still, throwing one’s hands up in the air and saying that we lost, and to speak out, to attend a rally at a Church is going to hurt us in the court of public opinion, that staying at home is going to advance our cause in a way that holding a candle on a street corner never could, simply is not supported through any civil rights movement documented through the course of history.
Lastly, did most of those in attendance believe that attending a rally on the eve of the hearings would affect the eventual opinion of the court? I don’t think so; rather, most who were there simply wished to remind people of our cause and the justice denied to us.
Mike
@Chitown Kev:
I am in agreement, Kev.
Landon Bryce
Mike:
I worked against Prop 8 before the election. I attended rallies in November. I am not an advocate of staying home. I am saying that you wrote an entire message about how horrible and lazy people were just because they did not attend the Eve of Justice rally. I don’t mean to say that you should not have attended. I do mean to say that your attack on those who did not attend did not allow for legitimate reasons for not supporting it. Did you think about the fact that many people thought it was a bad, counterproductive idea before you went on your rant?
As for Obama, like many gays you are cherrypicking his record for what you want to see and ignoring the big picture: he is indifferent to gay causes and uses us politically.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
No, he’s not indifferent at all, or, at least he wasn’t in Illinois. There was not THAT much to gain from his support of the gay community in Illinois, he could have easily gone the other way. He didn’t have to do what he did, especially in his state Senate district.
On a national level, yes what you say may hold true, but then again the Clintons did the same thing.
Chitown Kev
Hmmm., seems like this bit of news was the final straw, Marc Solomon from MassEquality is in at Equality California.
petted
@Sebbe: For the culture wars it is a fairly narrow victory particularly considering the animosity many people have towards us. I
Anthony in Nashville
@Mike:
Thank you for your comments!
I was thinking the other day about how every gay magazine/newspaper I know of is mailed out in packaging to hide the fact that it is a gay publication.
If we can’t even accept our subscriptions with a degree of openness, how do people expect us to get things like gay marriage or employment nondiscrimination?
Landon Bryce
Kev:
Bill Clinton did the same thing, not “the Clintons.” Joe Biden voted for DOMA, too. Neither Bill nor Obama has ever made a statement about our equality that touches what Hillary said last week. I doubt that either will. I’m still glad she lost the election, but can we please stop smearing her?
I’m glad that you see something other than political calculation geared toward the national stage in his occasional support for gay causes in Illinois. I don’t. I think he has said nice things sometimes, slapped us sometimes in order to influence straight voters. I honestly believe that seeing anything else in his record on gay issues calls for ignoring both his record on our issues and his general political approach.
Chitown Kev
No, Obama didn’t even begin “slapping the gay community in the face” until the runup to the 2004 Senate race. Bobby Rush even had the nerve to support the wealthier white candidate in that Democratic primary. (The Rush-Obama dynamic is very weird, they can’t stand each other)
I agree that once Obama turned to the national stage, that’s when the slapping began. (And Obama was always going in that direction, I’ve heard talk about Obama for President since ’98 or so)
Landon Bryce
But, Kev, I think it is naive to think that he did not know that it was necessary to be supportive of gay issues to make it onto the national stage as an African American Democrat. It let him look less black, something he had to do to get beyond Chicago. His occasional support for gay issues, even in Chicago, was about neutralizing racism, something he understands, not about combating homophobia, something he does not understand or care about at all. He never, ever cared about you. He pretended to in order to appeal to soccer moms.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
Nothing naive about Obama, the Donnie McClurkin episode showed me that as well as the Jeremiah Wright episode (who, for the record, supports GLBT issues but not the way we prioritize them). Carol Mosley Brown also made it to the national stage and never wavered in support of our issues (although she was a corrupt politician, her politics were sound).
But how is Obama any differnt from any other Democratic politician? (with the possible exception of John Kerry, which is really the problem here. You’re walking a really fine line)
Chitown Kev
http://www.baywindows.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc3=&id=88202&pf=1
But I know Japhy and Dave are on the case but…here it is
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Tim in SF:
Surprise Surprise!
If this was a right wing Prop 8 event…boy, you can imagine the qestions and the debates that would be going on…
Why not blame Obama?? Yawn. Instead of the fact that a large population of the SF gay community didn’t even vote!
Oh dear..
MARK m
@Chitown Kev: How he is different is that he should know better. As a minority, raising minority kids.. he should know better. My anger is as much with the Alan Alda-types who gushed in love with Obama. Sold off the one-legged stepson of those annoying fags. Would have been nice, but he is the best we can get. BS. We have cut every gay person we know who supported Obama from our lives. If it were legal to do it at work, I would do it there too.
Landon Bryce
Thanks very much for the dialogue, Kev. I appreciate your perspective and you have both made me think and influenced my opinion.
I guess my point might be that Obama is not any different from any other straight Democrat when it comes to gay issues. None of them have showed any integrity or class when it comes to gay issues. Kucinich, maybe. No one else. Obama is the same old “take the gays’ money and fuck’em over” DNC shit when it comes to us. No different at all. It hurts because I think more highly of him than I do of John Kerry or Nancy Pelosi and because the Obama wing of the gay mafia is so vicious to anyone who questions their darling.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
Should another minority know better? As a double minority myself, I say yes but I know many that don’t feel that way.
And as far as those who think that Obama should NEVER be questioned, I have very little tolerance for them. As most of my family has now found out.
Landon Bryce
Kev:
I think recent events prove that being a member of one minority does not automatically give you empathy for others. Which is why I didn’t say that Obama should know better as a member of a persecuted minority. That was Mark.
And it’s clear, Kev, that you are no Obamaton.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
oops….no offense!
John in Cali
I have zero confidence with our current gay organizations fighting for marriage equality (HRC, No on 8, etc.). They are very reactive instead of proactive.
Leading up to the elections, I wrote the “NO on 8” campaign twice, asking what I can do to get involved, and I received one response with the suggestion for me to contact other people on my own to start rallies on street corners. I felt like there was such a lack of organizing from the campaign itself. I signed up for newsletters from all these different organizations, and the only emails I kept getting from them was for continuous requests for donations. It was very frustrating, because people were eager to volunteer for this cause, and these organizations didn’t create an easier way for people to channel their energy, in fighting Prop 8.
In comparison, it’s interesting to see the effectiveness of grassroots organizations, like Join the Impact, right after the elections. In a matter of a few days, this organization was created, and was able to mobilize tens of thousands of people from all over the world. Why weren’t the more established gay organizations able to do this?
I understand that fundraising is important, but it can’t just all be about fundraising. If you want people to get involved, give them avenues to do so, and more information on how to go about it.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
My dear, Landon, I am not going to battle you or be wooed into a fight. What I am going to do is be consistent. Thank you for taking the time to participate in your attempts to defeat and bring attention to Proposition 8.
Now, I will defend myself. I did not go into a “rant.” I offered an observation, Landon, and then continued on to try to inspire those to come out of inertia. Did I consider why people did not participate in The Eve of Justice? Why, yes I did. Actually, Landon, my graduate degree is in Political Science, so I tend to: a) think objectively; and b) not make sweeping pronouncements. I’m not attacking folks, and you accused me of saying that people were lazy, which I never said in my original posting. What I believe is that people are inert, people are perplexed, and perhaps people are a bit too polite in regards to showing difference to society when it comes to living openly.
I don’t want to bicker, Landon, I want to contribute and to inspire. I am so sorry that you missed attending an Eve of Justice rally. The one I was involved with was uplifting. We had clergy who supported us, some music, and I stood among our some lovely young straight women on one side, and an Episcopal Priest on the other, and talked to them about the issues facing us, engaged with them, heard what their perspective was, and held that candle on that street corner as car after car honked in approval for us. If nothing else, it encouraged us to keep the issue alive in the eyes of the electorate, and I got to learn and grow from all those I listened to that evening: from the speakers to the the people who stood beside me. What would I have learned at home?
I’m not fearful of alienating people. Certainly, there are those who will react very negatively to any that I might do to advance our cause, but then…there are others.
I spoke to a man of about 40 at one rally. He was an Evangelical Christian. I took many courses in the Bible and Scripture, so that I could work hard on myself and free myself of the mercy of others, Landon. I listened first to his arguments, and then I began to speak from my heart and my head. He interupted me, and I dropped back to listen to him again, and when he was through I continued with my thoughts. We spoke about religion and we spoke about what our democracy was all about. By the time we were through, we had gathered a crowd, and he shook my hand and told me that I had brought up issues he hadn’t thought through. The lesson in this is not about me, but about approach. We can reach people, Landon, but we can’t do it from home.
Again, I appreciate all that you did for Prop 8 after the election, but this isn’t just about Prop 8, and it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Just as Malcom X argued for linking the civil rights issue for people of color to larger, global issues of human rights, so must we. In order to do that, we must get out there and keep the dialogue going.
I really do respect your decision to stay at home. If that is what you felt was best to do, then God Bless you for doing what you thought was best. Still, I personally would like to urge others to consider getting out there in the world, to keep moving, to continue the dialogue for our civil rights.
I, Landon, am in a long term, very happy, notthatitmattersmonogomous relationship. We married in July, but not so much for us (it would be for us if we had Federal protections), but for others to grow up knowing that they had yet another option, and so that they did not feel quite so much like a second class citizen, unworthy of full rights and protections. I am at the stage of my life wherein I know I will live the rest of my life out with my husband, Steve, whether I have rights or not. I already got myself out there to deliver meals for AIDS patients and cared for their pets so that they would not lose them. I fought my fair share of battles, and I’m tired…I mean, I’m just exhausted. Is there just anyway that maybe you could find a way to be less defensive. Nothing I said was an assault against you, nothing. I defend your right to stay at home, I do….would you be able to find it in your heart to entitle me to my course of action, and to do so without reading into something I’ve “said” that was never there in the first place?
I want us all to come together. If I somehow put you on the defense, I sincerely apologize.
Tim in SF
@John in Cali: Leading up to the elections, I wrote the “NO on 8” campaign twice, asking what I can do to get involved, and I received one response with the suggestion for me to contact other people on my own to start rallies on street corners. I felt like there was such a lack of organizing from the campaign itself
In the meeting (referenced in the story above, in which the consultant – pictured – talked about the letter from Obama) your complaint was made by at least half a dozen people. Geoff Kors said he received all of these requests (like yours) and forwarded them to local offices for further follow up. He says he didn’t know that there was no follow up. The blonde attorney lady said that was where they failed the most. The political consultant (pictured above) was mostly upset about the bad TV ads. And, since that’s where 30 million dollars of our money went, that’s where I’m upset too.
Mike
@Chitown Kev:
I would like to add, on behalf of Kev’s point of view, that Kucinich was unable to win. What Landon is saying is true, that not one candidate who stood a chance would rise up to be our Kennedy, but Obamma has been in office only a short time. He may never come through for us, just as no one in the past has, but he is the only show in town now, so maybe we should remain a bit open to see how American life unfolds over time.
No one in the Republican party had our backs, and there wasn’t a contender among those from the Democrats. Obamma’s previous nods towards us offers just a tad of hope, that politics won the battle, but that perhaps the war is not over. Outside of hope what do we have, but utter surrender.
The Gay Numbers
@MadProfessah: Uhm- no everyone did not no that Obama was against Prop 8. Indeed, that’s why the Yes on 8 said he supported it. Much of this is at the end of the day about people rationalizing their poor campaign skills. The fact is much of what you describe sounds like rationalization for inaction. It reads like people were reacting rather seeking to control the political cycles and narratives. You may think this sounds good, but from an objective observer- it sounds pretty bad. So, I will give Queerty credit here if all of this pans out as true because what you provide as a counter is just rationalization.
Chitown Kev
@Mike:
But…and I feel strongly about this, Obama did this with our votes and with gay seed money from David Geffen. Also, had Geffen not only gave the seed money to Obama but also strongly rebuked Hillary Clinton at the same time, I don’t believe he would have beaten her in the primaries.
The handling of this letter is further evidence, that yes, GLBT organizations did go in the tank for Obama at a considerable cost, namely, the passing of Proposition 8 in California. That is an extremely high price for our community to pay for his election.
From what I have read, I can think of only one state where the GLBT community alone might be able to flip a statewide election and that is…Florida. Only when we can demonstrate that we can flip an election with our votes alone will we stopped being dissed.
Landon Bryce
Mike:
If you can read your initial message and not see the accusations of laziness (“Are you just too tired after work to attend a rally?”), then you are not being intellectually honest. I get angry when people are sanctimonious– it may be as off-putting to me as my anger is to you.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
That’s why I am trying to get some info on Obama’s public statements on Prop 8. I know he did the MTV interview just a few days before the election, but I knew about his opposition to Proposition 8 before then. If there were statements with his voice indicating his opposition to Prop 8, why didn’t our side do No On 8 robocalls using Obama’s voice (as we did with Bill Clinton)?
John in Cali
Thanks for your reply Tim in SF! I don’t want to just be a downer and complain about the whole thing, after the fact, but it is frustrating.
Improvements definitely have to be made, in how to approach this fight for marriage equality. I’ve never really been an activist before, but I plan to get involved more with one of the newer organizations fighting for it, and I have currently been thinking of ideas, other than protesting and fundraising, in order for this fight to be more effective and productive moving forward.
I don’t live too far from SF, so if you’re currently part of an organization right now, let me know which one, and I’ll try to find you, so we won’t have to exchange information on here. I’d love to speak to you more about this, and find out what we can do to effectively help with this whole thing, in the future.
Bill Perdue
@MadProfessah: Is there any documentation for your point three?
Chitown Kev
@Bill Perdue:
Yep, point #3 is exactly what I zeroed in on. I noticed that MP limited that to the use of “image.” He says nothing about the use of Obama’s voice. Though it would be nice to know about the documentation you’re talking about also.
To be honest, I didn’t pay that much attention to Prop 8 being where I am. But if my memory serves me right, there was plenty of Obama’s audio to, at the very least, counterattack against Yes On 8’s robocalls.
Mike
@Chitown Kev:
Oh, Kev, I absolutely agree with you on this too! I really do. I am very unhappy, I am. Maybe, for me, I need to move forward with hope. Maybe for me, without any hope at all, I just surrender and stop. So, I choose hope. I am unhappy, I do not just accept what I have seen, which is why I continue to work…but I want to keep my mind and my heart open to hope.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
Landon: Thank you so much for putting that out there for me. I did say that! Oh, well…I was wrong! Not only was I wrong, but I harbor that in my heart…so, I will add that I was thinking of one person in particular to whom it does apply, but I can see how I seemed to have applied it to all people, and that was not my intent.
I apologized once, and I will apologize again. To get a third will take a fine dinner, and a good wine.
And, I still think it is better to light a candle and stand with it on a street corner, than to stay at home and curse the darkness.
blake
This is all spilt milk. We have to move on from Prop 8 and focus on doing things better.
The No on Prop 8 campaign was not the best run campaign. We get it.
Now what? Does it do any good to keep kicking the No on 8 leaders when they’ve already been bloodied and lampooned?
It’s done. There has to be better coordinated efforts for state and federal legislation. There has to be more networking and coalition building, too.
Not enough has been done to explain to other marginalized communities how dangerous the precedent Prop 8 set for easily removing rights from a minority group. What’s next? Will the residents of California be allowed to decide that red headed Californians should not be able to own property? Should people with glasses be outlawed from driving? Should freedom of speech be made eligible only to males who own property?
Kenneth Starr argued that the will of the people allowed for the withdrawal of any right as long as the people saw fit.
Doesn’t that go against the founders belief in opposing a tyranny of the majority?
Landon Bryce
Thanks, Mike. Apology accepted. But, really, as someone with a political science degree, you have no trouble with using rallies to attempt to put political pressure on judges? Or with holding rallies that give that impression (and have no other practical target)? My graduate degree is only in education, but I know enough to know that’s a bad idea.
Chitown Kev
@blake:
Bloddied and lampooned, but they are still there…
Actually, I think the Cali Supremes did note what Starr said, and they did not look happy about it. I expect that while they may uphold Prop 8 and keep the existing 18,000 marriage, the strongest worded language in that opinion will be on the precendent it sets.
Or…just because there have never been a case like this that has been considered to be a revision of the Constitution doen’t mean that they can’t set the precedent.
Bill Perdue
@Chitown Kev: I haven’t heard of any Obama campaign ads against Prop 8, which I think is the crucial question.
That could have something to do with his constant appeals for bigot votes, a feature of his campaign that cut deeply into the Republican base Rove built by pandering. Now much of it’s a Democrat base.
And it could have something to do with the fact that his strategy is get our votes and bigot votes by opposing only constitutional DOMAs to get our votes and saying that gawd told him be a bigot to get their votes.
This will soon be become the basis for some dissertation or major research project soon and we’ll find out the make and model of the bus that ran over us. I’m betting it’ll be an Obamamobile.
Chitown Kev
@Bill Perdue:
no, I am not talking about campaign ads, but I know I heard him voice his opposition to Prop 8 for the same reasons that he talked about in the MTV interview. All you need to make a robocall is a recording of his voice saying that.
Tim in SF
@blake: This is all spilt milk. We have to move on from Prop 8 and focus on doing things better.
This after-action analysis is vital if we are not to make the same mistakes going forward.
There was a man at this meeting who turned his back on the panelists (Kors, et al) and addressed the crowd. He said we are not well served by moderates, like those on the podium, who run a closeted campaign – who keep us invisible. He said Harvey Milk argued for visibility. Kors, Steve Smith and the other cunts at EQCA spent THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS on commercials with no gay people. THIS was a problem. The issue was not personalized beyond parents not wanting their kids to learn about gay marriage in school.
The No on Prop 8 campaign was not the best run campaign. We get it. Now what? Does it do any good to keep kicking the No on 8 leaders when they’ve already been bloodied and lampooned?
I may be alone in this, but I think we would best be served by taking over the existing organizations, firing the leadership, banning the future use of any not-gay political consultants as well as any of the ones connected with this most recent campaign.
The infrastructure is in place and we should take advantage of it. Once the marriage issue is decided in our favor, the organization should be dissolved.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
I never said I was trying to put pressure on judges…at this point, I’m trying to keep dialogue alive. We are the smallest of minorities, Landon, and if we don’t fight, I promise you that no one else will.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
By the way, I have three political science degrees (and two others). I believe–and this is my just my belief–that we should be visible.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
I feel dreadful replying to you so many times in a row, but I’m working, and I reply when I am able.
The civil rights for women, the civil rights for people of color did not concern itself with putting off others. They took to the streets, Landon. If that is the truth, then we will need to take to the streets even more so, because we are an even smaller minority.
I graduated top of my class, so I probably don’t know all that much, but you know…I just don’t think remaining at home and being quiet as a mouse works all that well.
I am advocating for change in small ways….you forget that….but if you have a boyfriend, and your parents introduce him as a friend, correct them. Hold hands with thim where you feel comfortable….bring your relationships to light.
Landon Bryce
And, Mike, I agree with you on visibility. And on being out there. But politicizing judicial decisions is out and out bad, and that was the point of the rally that you extolled as a gay civic duty. Undermining legitimate elections hurts everyone. I’m sure that must have come up in at least one of your five degree programs. If not, you got ripped off and being at the top of your class may not be as great an achievement as you think it is– and if you think it is appropriate to respond to this with the names of the great schools you attended, then you truly are a lost cause.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: Obama also had Biden days before the election on Ellen’s show saying that they were against Prop 8.
This sounds more l ike the gay groups were ineffectual. He gave them enough to run with it, but they refused to be smart about how politics is played. It affects the rights of my friends in CA, but frankly the gay groups lose the messaging war. THis is perhaps part of the problem they don’t understand we are in a war?
The Gay Numbers
@Bill Perdue: @Chitown Kev: This is where we sound like whiny idiots. Obama’s a politician. Did you think he was going to cut an ad for us? You can’t be this naive about politics?
There is a difference between what the leadership of a movement can do, and what the guy running for President can do. It’s straight up (no pun intended) delusional to expect Obama to not be a politician since he is one. There’s a guy at the site Talk left who always rights- a politician is a politician. Our problem seems to be not knowiing how to use them.
This is not theory. This is fact. Look LBJ or Kennedy, and how they had run versus what they later did. Even when LBJ took the courage of passing the Civil RIghts Acts who bluntly stated- I am losing the South for the Democratic Party for a generation. Look at Roosovelt who — to paraphase – told his constituencies to force him to do the things he agreed with because that’s how politics works.
Obama went out on limb and gave the gay groups the ammunition they needed to fight. Were the gay groups smart political players- they would have used it.
Instead, they waited for the right to control the message.
Let me add – this was not the first time either. Remember how they engaged the issue of gays being linked to teaching kids about gay marriage (or in other words that we are going to convert the children). How old is that argument? Was it not used in 2000? Yet, they claimed they didn’t see it coming. I mean- seriously- who is buying that argument that they didn’t know that right wing crazies were somehow going to make this about us corrupting children.
To me, this is the same thing- expecting Obama not to be a politician is the wrong goal. Using what he says to our advantage is the goal. That means when he throws you a statement you can use, and takes risk like sticking Biden out there, then you use these things.
Bill Perdue
@The Gay Numbers: You confuse politician with opportunist hustler. Or maybe not, maybe there is no difference in the Democrat and Republican machines.
Whatever you call him he works for the rich.
They’re a tiny part of the population who own most of the wealth in this country and wrecked the economy looting even more. They want a war in South Asia. They use bigotry, racism, immigrant bashing and misogyny to divide and rule. They own both parties and in Obama they got exactly what they want – a gofer. They don’t give a rat’s ass what you call him as long as he does what they tell him to.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
That’s exactly my point, there were more than enough soundbites to cut ads and robocalls using his voice and image that were not used. Trust me, if we had been running that campaign in Illinois with that ammunition, it would have been used.
Although I am going step beyond saying that the leadership was ineffectual, in my opinion and based on a cursory view of stories like this since the election. I could be wrong…
flightoftheseabird
A couple of points.
First, someone already made it earlier, but HRC is a national organization working on national issues – primarily electing the most pro-LGBT president in history, followed by (re)electing fair minded individuals to congress so that a laws that are supportive of the LGBT community-at-large get passed.
We have an extremely good chance of getting almost all of the legistlative agenda passed and signed into law this year, and those include – Hate Crimes, an all-inclusive ENDA, Eary Treatment for HIV, Domestic Partner benefits for Federal civil employees, and removing the tax inequalities of domestic partner benefits both for the employee and employer. A repeal of DODT has also been proposed, that is a little tougher, but we hope for that too. All made possible because of HRC’s work.
The second point, HRC did not even have a voice on the executive committee of EQCA. Yes, technically, HRC was on the Exec Committee, but were told to go along with whatever was already decided primarily by Korrs and Jean (who detest HRC). Which is particularly enraging considering most of the early money came from HRC and HRC raised the second most of any other group other than through EQCA (go look at the reports). HRC has some great people who have run campaigns and not one person was used.
No on 8 was one of the most poorly run campaigns. The “leaders” failed on so many levels. There was no outreach to labor unions, Sen. Boxer, people of faith, Orange County, as well as the lying about polls. The no side was down almost from the beginning and Korrs’ reaction was rather than change strategy was to try to fire the pollster.
Perhaps unfortunately, most people only see the black tie events that HRC does. However, that is so little of the work being done. Like how many of you knew that nearly 300 HRC members from around the country representing nearly 30 states stormed the halls of Congress this past week talking with their members of Congress? And that those very same people were in trainings all weekend in order to better empower our local communities. Almost everything HRC does is done in communities around the country by tens of thousands of volunteers and filters upward to the few hundred paid staff working in DC.
So could have HRC done (or demanded) more? Yes of course. But this was not their fight, specifically. It was a local issue. Now we need to move forward and start making the changes on the ground so that we can succeed in 2010. Let’s stop fighting for the 101st Fighting Keyboard Brigade and get on the ground, talk to friends, neighbors, co-workers, members of your church, whoever to talk about why marriage is a civil right and should be viewed as such. We can win this fight, but it is not going to be easy and the battle starts now, not in Sept 2010.
Mike
Landon, you are obviously baiting me, so I simply will not respond to you. Enjoy your argument with other who will fight for your rights without you. At this point, you are simply not worth the time.
Should all movement cease because we challenge the political system? Our justices have indicated that they are leaning away from our rights, because they did so with those who are on death row? This is something we are not expected to rise up and speak against. In 1954, the California Supreme Court overturned a nearly identical proposition, that wrote as an amendment to our constitution the right to discriminate against blacks. The majority of the people favored this, yet the Supreme Court rejected it, but our movement is best compared to murderers seeking their rights.
Please, by all due respect, Landon, continue to retreat into your home and place nice in difference to the popular vote, and remain quiet because it isn’t nice to speak out to the court, particularly so when they are on the eve of holding hearings.
I’ll be certain NOT to send you a thank you note when I finally obtain my rights as a citizen of the country I was born into, and you can tell me all about what you learned on Survivor and Big Brother on the nights that you should have been standing with us shoulder to shoulder.
Tim in SF
@flightoftheseabird: First, someone already made it earlier, but HRC is a national organization working on national issues – primarily electing the most pro-LGBT president in history, followed by (re)electing fair minded individuals to congress so that a laws that are supportive of the LGBT community-at-large get passed.
You mean like Joe fucking Lieberman?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howie-klein/hrc-endorses-the-duplicit_b_21883.html
HRC=FAIL.
The Gay Numbers
@Bill Perdue: Uhm- no. I am not confused at all. You, however, are. Politicians are politicians. What you are seeing now is no different than FDR except people were made of tougher stock back then. Everything you say about Obama could have been said of FDR, but people at that time were willing to fight for what they want. That’s what separates us from that generation. People now sit around whining like little bitches about it. It’s not Obama’s fault that the things he did throw out there the gay groups did not use. No more, I might add, is it the fault of black groups in CA that reached out, and were dened by the gay groups. this is where your post meets reality. The fact is- if this letter were a single incident, you would be on bad ground. But with what else we know about the situation- there is no grounds for you comments at all besides the fact you don’t like Obama. Me personally- I don’t give a shit about Obama. I care about outcomes. He gave us enough it seems to have prevented one vital element of the argument by the right wing groups. We didn’t use it properly. That’s not his fault. That’s ours. A quote I once heard- that comes from Paul Wellstone (I can only paraphrase since i heard it from 3rd party)- winning in politics comes from who wants it more. Does anything here suggest our side wanted this as much as the right? I mean- come on- only half of us voted.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: Okay. I misunderstood. Sorry. I thought you were blaming Obama for the failures of the gay leadership here. My view is that – there are reasons to criticize Obama (ie, we need to push hard on DADT, ENDA etc because they are really allt he same issue- gay civil rights), but the idea that Obama is at fault when he stepped out on a limb here is not something I agree is a reason to criticize him. We are at fault here.
Mike
The Gay Numbers…and I too agree with you!
Landon Bryce
Mike:
That was a response to me, a long and condescending one. In case you didn’t notice. You ignore my basic point which is that the specific Eve of Justice vigil was a bad idea with no point other than politicizing court decisions. You go on ad nauseum about your degrees, your wisdom, your reasonableness, but have missed this basic civic concept. Judges should not be swayed by popular opinion. People who understand government do not hold rallies to try to do this. People who care about gay rights need to care about supporting the integrity of the courts: they are our only hope at the state level. People who want to hold on to hard won elected victories do not muck around trying to undo elections.
Again, if you did not get these basic points, you were not paying attention in high school civics. I know, I’ve taught it.
Landon Bryce
OBAMA STEPPED OUT ON A LIMB TO OPPOSE PROP 8?
Okay, so now I have read both the most offensive and the stupidest thing I have ever read on Queerty in one day.
There are no sound bites. That letter is it. If you find ANYTHING else from Obama that could have been used and wasn’t, I’ll be amazed.
You can reasonably excuse Obama’s tepid “opposition” to Prop 8, but to call it going out on a limb is fucking insane.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
Obama doen’t get THAT much of a pass. He could have made the correlation of Proposition 8 with Prop 209 and the anti-immigration proposition without mentioning gay marriage at all. He could have said something like “the tyranny of the majority is un-American” 2 or 3 weeks before the election. That may have galvanized the black community and, far more importantly, the Latino community.
Landon Bryce
Kev:
“far more importantly, the Latino community”
???????????
Racist much?
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
The MTV interview 3 or 4 days before the election is the only soundbite with Obama’s voice that I’ve found. Biden’s appearence happened in mid-October. Biden’s soundbite could have been used, though the Obama soundbite would have been more effective.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
no, the Latino community is 30-35% of the electorate in California. An Obama soundbite comparing Prop 8 to the anti-immigration proposition would have been a winner.
It’s funny when someone accuses me of racism.
Landon Bryce
And you’re positive that no attempt was made to use those interviews but stopped by the Obama campaign? Despite the FACT that Obama refuses to have his picture taken with Gavin Newsome because of Newsome’s association with same sex marriage? Despite Obama making sure that the cameras got cut off on Gene Robinson?
Landon Bryce
Kev:
Okay, yeah your statement makes complete sense and it was stupid of me not to see your point without the explanation. Glad you found the humor and hope you will accept the sincere apology. Very sorry.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
Look at my previous posts. I believe it was tanked by the No On 8 campaign, just like that questionnaire here in Chicago that the Windy City Times found (The Windy City Times keeps immaculate records.) Conspiracy theory much? Maybe.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
LOL, accepted. That’s not the first time anyone made that mistake. Nor will it be the last.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
I understand, Landon, that your lack of education and experience should entitle you to some insight, but it simply does not. The Eve of Justice, whether to sway court opinion or to just bring attention to our cause, was worthwhile, for it coalesced our community…you were, of course, the exception.
You wish to stay at home, submit to defeat, and simply rally again for another day. This will not be an issue to be decided, ultimately, in a court of public opinion; rather, we need to speak to the courts. It has been the courts that decided to grant women the right to vote, and it has been the courts that overturned discrimination against blacks and grant the right to marry among interacial marriage.
To me, Landon, you are the worst of the worst. I expect Lou Sheldon, Tony Perkins and George W. Bush to fight against me, but I would not expect someone of intelligence within our own community to attempt to inhibit me in my own fight. You, Landon, with all your rally attending intent prior to 8, now wish to silence us post 8.
I offered my education as a way to explain that I was an objective being, but you have attempted to turn it against me. Take a basic Marketing Class, Landon, and you will learn that you try to garner attention when you can. The Eve of the Supreme Court Hearings was an opportunity to bring attention back to our cause. If you feel that opportunity just abounds, and if you feel you have all the definitive answers, then please, with all due respect, come forward and lead our way, Landon. Otherwise, allow us to do our work, while you watch television.
Am I condescending towards you? Yes, I am. It is, apparently, the language you best understand, for it is the language you speak in. Obviously, the courts should be free of political pressure, but if you believe that they actually are, well then you are more the neophyte than I originally believed you to be. Besides, the purpose of the Eve of Justice was not to infuse the court hearings with political pressure, but to bring attention to a cause that some poor, desperate, lonely soul might enjoy one day after falling in love with you. Poor, poor man.
Landon Bryce
Mike:
Wow. Scratch the veneer of self-congratulation and the venom really comes pouring out, doesn’t it? What you have written has virtually no connection to what I have written. Your invective is addressed to a straw man who does not believe in organizing or protesting. That person is not me. That person has nothing to do with me. I do not think you should attack people for not supporting the Eve of Justice vigil. You’ve denied doing that, then admitted that you did, then have simply gone off the deep end. How can you form a cogent argument with an opponent when you cannot even extend your point of view to encompass that of someone like me who agrees with you on virtually everything? How can you not see that you look incredibly petty and foolish when you drone on about your education and my supposed lack of one (with only three measly degrees)? How much you must despise those gay people who dare to express an opinion but have no formal education.
Mike
Obviously, Landon, on those nights spent at home, you’ve been able to figure this all out, just during commercial breaks! You are the one we have been waiting for to lead us into the promise land. Oh, thank..well, thank whomever…for you! Please, by all means, lead us….what to you suggest? What program shall we all watch as we strategize? Big Brother? Real World? Rachel Ray?! I can’t wait for your recommendations, for you’ve sacrificed so much to get us here.
Mad Professah
@The Gay Numbers:
What part of what I said was rationalization? It was factual…
I agree that NO ON 8 could have done more to publicize Obama’s position on Prop 8, but as I said, there were downsides to doing so that I mentioned.
it is simply factually incorrect to say that NO ON 8 didn’t use Obama’s letter, and it’s definitely not true that people didn’t know Obama opposed Prop 8.
That’s mainly what my comment was about. I find it bizarre that blogs are publicizing this letter NOW when it was well know around the blogs in June 2008.
Mike
“drone on,” “attack”….you are a spin meister, Landon. Have you contacted the Bush family to try to help Jeb get into national politics? You’d be AMAZING!
Mad Professah
@Bill Perdue: There’s no public documentation on Obama-Biden’s refusal to do more to prevent YES ON 8 from using their image in their advertising as well as documentation of their refusal to help the NO ON 8 campaign with publicizing Obama-Biden’s position on the issue.
However, I have heard comments from multiple sources of people who worked on the NO ON 8 campaign that they begged Obama-Biden as well as had other people asked the campaign, to no avail.
Maybe they are CYA now, but I believe they wanted more from Obama-Biden and couldn’t figure out how to use what they currently had “Obama opposes gay marriage, but opposes Prop 8 also” into an effective message to defeat Prop 8.
TWO DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION (on Sunday Nov 2) Obama went on MTV and said that he believes marriage is between a man and a woman and REITERATED his opposition to Prop 8.
(http://buckmire.blogspot.com/2008/11/obama-talks-about-prop-8-with-mtv.html)
If people didn’t know Obama was opposed to Prop 8, they weren’t paying attention.
Landon Bryce
Mike:
I am well aware of my talent for invective. It’s a gift I would gladly return to the store if I could swap it for sweetness and light. But, dude, you seem seriously unhinged. Classy people don’t make reference to their own degrees or credentials. They NEVER say things like “I was at the top of my class.” People who actually ARE at the top of their class know enough not to brag about it. Ask anyone you like about this. I started with gentle teasing, but you keep escalating the flat out hatred.
You seem insane.
Chitown Kev
@Mad Professah:
See, it’s that 2 days before the election shit that gets me pissed at Obama.
But to craft such a message isn’t hard, Professor, I mean you’d rather have Obama’s voice with the message but you did have Biden’s 3 or 4 weeks before. And you did have Biden requesting to stop the robocalls.
Mike
@Landon Bryce:
OMG, I was just countering your accusation that I was not objective by referring to my training, dear, wounded, little Landon. I was not saying anything else. God Bless you, Landon, keep up the good fight and all our hopes are hinged upon you. Your superior knowledge is now validated. Whether through education or experience, I bow to you! You are the master of all our destinies.
By the way, you are right, I never got through primary school. I am terribly unclassy. I belched once, (I know, you are shocked) during a church service. I fear I have lost your respect!
And from now on, I shall follow your recommendations, and remain steadfastly at home, bitching to all my friends about the lack of rights afforded to me, while watching protestors on the street.
Will that satisfy, Landon. If not, what else can I do? It is not the first time that I’ve dealt with a guy who would wish me to roll over.
Lastly, I apologize…I wish I could take it back…I apoloigize for referring to my education. Oh my gosh, if I knew that being educated and trained would creat such havoc, that it would somehow taint my point of view, that it would make me less than objective, that it would lose your esteemed respect, well…I never would have worked 3 jobs to get myself through school. Oooooops, there I go being unclassy again.
Landon, you are an inspiration to us all. Really…right now, I am creating my own little “Landon is King” corner in my home to worship. So brilliant you are! Oh, and I’m putting it in the same corner as my T.V.!
Landon Bryce
Mike:
As your king, I direct you to seek therapy.
Mike
Landon: thank you, you are right. I came out and refused to engage in the promiscuity of the pretty crowd who adopted me. They were very angry with me, for they felt it an assault against their choices that I did not submit. I never did, but I defended every persons right to make their own choices. Open relationship? Sure, why not? Multiple sex partners? Go for it. I would never judge or condemn people as you do; and I still refuse to. Is it so impossible to just accept one another for their differences? I suppose so, for you have certainly argued for that impossibility.
While my reference to my education was just to inform you that I was not applying a subjective point of view to the subject, I understand that you objected to it and that it was threatening. Besides, Landon, I have all that I ever needed or wanted to have in life. I really don’t need to carry on the battle that you wage. I don’t need to stand on street corners holding candles or signs at night. I don’t need to fight for a generation that will be in power after I am long gone.
I will just turn over the fight to you. Lead the rest of the generation as you see fit, Landon. Stay at home, don’t stand up, don’t do anything that will upset or unsettle the power structure…maintain the status quo, for it has served you as it has for so many years.
You win, Landon, you really do. You’ve convinced me.
Good luck to you and yours, and I hope that life brings you all that you’ve worked so hard to achieve…..
Landon Bryce
Again, Mike, you write something that has nothing to do with me or anything I have said. You need to get some help. No joke.
The Gay Numbers
@Mad Professah: Rationalizations are often facts. It’s a matter of whether or not that when looking at the totality of facts whether the new fact really mattered or when looking at the big picture it’s just an excuse. The problem you have here is that this is not a singular incident. That’s why it’s a rationalization. Everytime, there’s some rationalization based on some fact that seems plausible, but in total- not so much.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: He’s a politician. I am not giving him a pass because I have no expectation beyond what he is.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
First of all, I want to thank the Prof for all that he’s done to achieve marriage equality in California. The loss that our community took nationwide on November 4 has placed all of our status as full citizens and, more importantly, his own marriage in jeapordy.
By no means does this negate the questions, concerns, sadness, and anger in our communities. It has to be tough to face the community at this time. I’m just a passionate observer here in Obamaville in the Midwest.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
These do sound like rationalizations to me. On one hand, I guess there’s only so much blood that you can squeeze out of a turnip. On the other hand, the No On 8 campaign seems to be a damn bloody turnip that’s leaking profusely and can’t stop.
kevin (not that one)
I may be a idealistic, annoying fool, but I’ve never turned down an opportunity to take over a main thoroughfare for LGBT rights. And I was proudly out last Thursday to not only be visible to other brothers and sisters, but to show our enemies that we will not allow them to take our streets without opposition. And trust me, our enemies were out in full-force in front of the supreme court building that day.
However, in the short time I’ve lived, I’ve continued to worked with activists who believe in chipping away at the struggle bit by bit, and I’ve seen apathetic defeatists who never gain anything but bitterness, fueling the same defeated spirit that prevents them from becoming active in the first place.
I hate to admit that the commies might be right, but sometimes I truly believe that only a vanguard can lead a movement. Not that the masses are useless, but as I’ve seen the masses just don’t give a crap, including when those gay masses are persecuted.
And weirdly enough, those same folks who don’t do anything but ride the coattails of “troublemaking” activists often have the greatest scorn for those people who are doing the most to make the world a safer place to be queer.
Jesus certainly wasn’t the last do-gooder to be crucified by his own oppressed people.
Mike
That’s right, Landon, attack me, not one of those religious nut jobs or social conservatives. Attack someone who is fighting for our rights….great strategy.
By the way, what are you watching on television tonight?
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: It’s not about them. It’s about not making the same mistakes again, and, thereby, increase our chances of winning. Once you take the ego out of this, the reality of why critique is important becomes obvious.
Landon Bryce
Mike,
I’m watching Rachel Maddow, being horrified by the allegations being made that Halliburton offshoot KBR is guilty of negligent homicide in allowing American soldiers to be electrocuted. Planning to call my representatives tomorrow and ask that they do something about this, ask when criminal charges will be filed against Dick Cheney. You might want to do the same.
But, really, who do you think is on the attack here? Compare the volume of invective in your messages to that in mine. Read what I am actually writing. I have never once advocated doing nothing or staying home. Never. Once. You wrote a really nasty message and I called you on it. You acknowledged briefly that I was absolutely correct, then went off on an ego-fueled whinefest of operatic proportions.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
No I understand, but as we shoot from the hip and criticize (as only we can) it is important to recognize that those who worked on the campaign are personally invested also.
I am not saying they should not be held accountable, but…you know how we can get sometimes.
Mike
My message was really nasty? Landon, you poor thing…you’re a bit hypersensitive.
AS for Halliburton, I shall look into it and likely follow suit, thank you for the recommendation.
As for who is on attack here, I’d say you, but then that is just my perception.
Thank you for fighting the good fight!
Vanhattan
I wish all the petty kat fighters here would just chill and help me and others with the dilemma that the Gays are up agaist.
I want to know who or whom I can trust with my cash and support now and in the near future to run the best next campaign for GLBTQ marriage and other civil rights equality. ????
For example, I used to give to the HRC but they have proven themselves over and over again to be for the most part a bunch of self serving pompas clickish jerks. I watched in horror as the beige say nothing tv ads by NO on 8 gobbled up millions of dollars. Hell, any freshman flunkie advertising major could have guessed that these ads were losers.
I also live out of the country and it is hard for me and I am sure to others to dicern all I need to know from afar to make the best decision on where to send my hard earned cash and to lend support with letter writing etc.
So who are the new leaders? What leaders and groups most deserve our support and cash in the run up to another vote on SSM and other issues??? Let’s start having some adult conversations here, not just more endless petty bitch slapping matches….OK? I am fucking serious! I want to know some answers to the questions above and more. Please help me and others out here. Thanks.
Bruno
I knew about the Obama letter, and for months wondered if it would come to light in a more publicity-garnering way. It didn’t until Schubert, Prentice and their crony fuckheads sent out those mailers placing Obama on their side. Reactive campaigning, not proactive, with too much attention focussed on TV ads (and mostly crappy ones at that).
But, this isn’t news…and the fact that people here seem to mostly not have been aware of that letter shows you that the No on 8 people weren’t the only ones not paying much attention to the battle at hand.
Mad Professah
@Chitown Kev:
ok, what is the message? How do you publicize the fact that Obama is opposed to Prop 8 without also promoting his opposition to gay marriage?
Especially, when asked Obama himself will say so directly….
I do think it was worth it to go there–the NO ON 8 camp did not. But to me its a perfectly reasonable decision to go either way.
Hollywood Accountable Joe
Here are 2 excellent Prop 8 campaign post mortems. They are very revealing.
How We Blew It
http://www.bilerico.com/2008/11/how_we_blew_it_californias_prop_8_defeat.php
Proposition 8 postmortem – from a senior volunteer http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/28/122245/48/622/677735
The failure to use Obama is a major flub. It ranks alongside the flub to not publicize Arnold’s opposition, the top Republican Governor. So they didn’t publicize either the top Democrat who was driving swing and minority voters to the polls or the top Republican who might have muted some of the messages from the Right.
Anyone could have predicted the other side would use Obama’s image and possibly his voice; we should have been prepared and were instead caught flat footed.
Biden handed No on 8 a gift when he appeared on Ellen over a month before the election with strong unequivocal statements against Prop 8. But he wasn’t used either.
Let’s face it, No on 8 failed on many levels to publicize the breadth of opposition and instead gave in to internalized homophobia.
The entire campaign was forced to be reactive and it is almost impossible to regain momentum from a defensive position.
Were we proactive we would have neutralized their efforts by publicizing Obama’s opposition to swing and minority voters, many of whom get their election info from media commercials and mailings (of which Yes on 8 spent huge amounts and No on 8 spent nothing).
Tom
Steve Smith is clearly an idiot, but so was I for spending a dime on the No on 8 campaign. It was one of the worst organized campaign I can remember. Anyone who is still contributing to Equality California is crazy. You might as well just send your moeny directly to Ken Starr for all the good Equality California is going to do you. Until Geoff Kors and Lorri Jean are gone from their respective organizations, I’m out of the campaign funding business. Without new leadership, we will never win our rights.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Mad Professah:
Erm easily.
Why are you giving people so much intelligence???
Bottom line is, the letter would have helped. Don’t look at things with your eyes.
And again and again, your damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
When has a elected President EVER done that for gays???
Jesus!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Vanhattan:
Loaded question (s)…
Bill Perdue
@Mad Professah: @Chitown Kev: How do you publicize the fact that Obama is opposed to Prop 8 without also promoting his opposition to gay marriage?
You can’t. Obama became a bigot to get more votes and with the help of his Minister of Pandering Dubois became moderately successful at it. Many of his voters among christer fundies, including lots of southern baptists, mormons and catholics voted against us.
In spite of the fact that The Gay Numbers gives a wink and a nod to Obama’s hustling savvy and opportunism the bottom line is Obama’s bigotry and No on 8’s cowardice crushed us.
Obama is one of our enemies. Don’t expect anything else from him.
Landon Bryce
Vanhattan:
http://www.victoryfund.org
I contributed only to them and to EQCA in the last election cycle. In the future, I will contribute only to them. Straight people will do nothing for us. Our best hope is to get as many LGBT people into office as possible. Victory Fund is the right cause, and they have a rep for using money well.
I don’t think this is even a hard question. Check them out– I think you’ll feel better.
http://www.victoryfund.org
Bill Perdue
@Mad Professah: “There’s no public documentation on Obama-Biden’s refusal to do more to prevent YES ON 8 from using their image in their advertising as well as documentation of their refusal to help the NO ON 8 campaign with publicizing Obama-Biden’s position on the issue. …Maybe they are CYA now, but I believe they wanted more from Obama-Biden and couldn’t figure out how to use what they currently had “Obama opposes gay marriage, but opposes Prop 8 also” into an effective message to defeat Prop 8.”
Thanks again for your analysis. That’s important new info and it raises new questions.
The leadership of No on 8 were virtually all Democrats and self appointed professional movement hustlers. Why did they imagine, given what Yes on 8 was doing and what was at stake, that they needed the permission of a DOMA supporter like Biden or a bigot like Obama? Their party loyalty was disloyalty to the movement.
We need elected leaders, not self appointed hustlers. We need a strategy of mass action. Lots of people who voted for 8 are dismayed now that California GLBT folks are going on the offensive with mass demonstrations, lots of them. If they’d known that was going to happen with a certainty before the vote because we’d already demonstrated at mormon temples, warren’s bigot klaven, and catholic cathedrals that would have had a big effect on the outcome. But No on 8 forbade it. They’re misleaders. There was no mass distribution of leaflets and brochures and a Eurocentric approach to minority communities.
To be effective we have to work independently of the Democrat and Republicans parties. They’re closets.
Michelle
The Human Rights Campaign raised some $3.4 million — an unprecedented sum of money. It should also be noted that it committed to raising $500,000 in the Spring, a large number at the early onset compared to other national groups. But hey, maybe the number would have been higher had people not picketed HRC events dedicated to raising money for the fight on Prop 8! Seems some people forgot that for two months in the Summer, a critical time, a vast number of activists were concerned about turnout numbers at anti-HRC protests.
Chitown Kev
@Mad Professah:
Easily. Connect Proposition 8 to similar ballot initiatives (Prop 209) in the past and critique “the tyranny of the majority” as un-American. Whether Obama, himself, would have done that or not is another question.
I actually share Bill Perdue’s perspective to the extent that you are separating that type of argument from “gay marriage.” But the payoff in minority votes from that type of argument (which would appeal to a sense of “justice” rather than “gay marriage”) could have won the campaign. If you were campaigning for your lives, you can’t afford to be nice.
Eli Nassau
It is amazing how much can one break his or her head trying to figure out exactly what went wrong on a campaign, the what-ifs of a situation and the search for the guilty one(s). By writing about the letter that President Obama sent to the Alice B. Toklas Democratic Club, this post is doing exactly that. In a way, being able to detect the mistakes made on the previous effort can help people in charge of the next campaign to learn from them and avoid them. However, the focus of our attention should lay on what is the next step, what should be done next to avoid what happened on the elections. I am not denying that it can be infuriating to have such an opportunity like this wasted, that may or may not have been defining in the outcome. Yet there is another opportunity, happening right now which is the open hall hearing about the constitutionality of the Proposition 8. This hearing will determine (until the next elections) if voting for the Prop 8 was something to be voted for, because amending the constitution under the interest and influence of the religious views is purely unconstitutional.
Therefore this is a good opportunity to present various documents, such as this one, which of course has exceptional value, coming from the president who was elected by more than sixty percent of the country, which is much more than the fifty two percent of the people that voted yes on 8 in California. By giving this document as evidence, being backed up by the very man who is presiding the entire country has a deep impact, which should help make a difference. Or will it? Maybe it is too late to present that document as valid, yet Obama has openly stated his support for GLBT equality issues (he is planning on overturning the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. No matter what happens, I know that sooner or later marriage will not be a way of separation and discrimination, but a celebration of love for everybody. Yet this will not come from nowhere, it is by examining and scrutinizing what went wrong and applying that knowledge to future events.
Mad Professah
@The Gay Numbers:
I’m a politician? What gives you that idea? Please define what a politician is?
I’ve never been elected to a position by the general public (although I have been elected by members of the Democratic Party to represent them on the state Democratic Party Central Committee-along with a few THOUSAND other people).
The reason why I post here is to try and correct untruths and to set the record “straight” in order to prevent people from making false conclusions from the incorrect information found here.
Chitown Kev
@Mad Professah:
I think he may be referring to Obama, MP. Obama is an extremely pragmatic politician, as everyone is finding out. I don’t like Obama’s craftiness on this issue (and others like the faith-based initiatives) but I understand it.
Which brings up another one of these soul searching issues in light of the Proposition 8 debacle.
Exactly what should be the relationship between the gay civil rights movement and the 2 political parties?
sparkle obama
those gays liked hillary!
they were mad & hating on obama!
cutting off they nose to spite they shady face!
those A-gays didn’t want any colored help!
for shame
for shame
don’t be fake!
mb00
@alan brickman: Hear, Hear!!!!! You couldn’t have said best.
mb00
@sparkle obama: what the eff are you rambling on about?
sparkle obama
@mb00:
don’t you read the news?
rt
I myself am suffering because of these STUPID IDIOTS.
To me Geoff Kors is Satan personified. An egomaniac who continues to lost battle after battle (California and now Maine).
I saw those stupid advertisements on California television put out by Equality. They were pathetic.
I hate Geoff Kors.