We’re truly disturbed. Susan Stanton, the former Largo, Florida city manager who left her job after transitioning from male to female, made some comments recently that make us question our unwavering support for her decision:
…Susan has said all along that she’s not like other transgender people. She feels uncomfortable even looking at some, “like I’m seeing a bunch of men in dresses.”
Eventually, she decided it was too early for transgender people to be federally protected. People need more time, more education, she says. “The transgender groups boo me, now, when I speak. Isn’t that ironic?
“But I don’t blame the human rights groups from separating the transgender people from the protected groups. Most Americans aren’t ready for us yet,” Susan says. Transgender people need to be able to prove they’re still viable workers — especially in the mainstream.
“The biggest issue against the federal legislation is that politicians think the ladies’ rooms will be invaded by guys in drag,” Susan says, “instead of someone like me.”
Unfuckingbelievable–talk about some internalized transphobia.
She highlights what I have been saying during this whole ENDA debate. People don’t want to hear it and I get accused of being a lot of things (all negative), but this country IS NOT READY for trans rights. And HRC was correct in supporting a non-inclusive bill. Their poll showed it, the votes in Congress showed, and here a trans MTF is saying it. It sucks, but sometimes the truth sucks.
Or bboy, she could be right.
Wow, what an idiot. I hope Susan gets hauled out a womens room when she’s really gotta go and ahe hershey squirts in her granny panties.
No one should have to prove that they are “worthy” of equal rights. And furthermore,I know trannies who not only pass as female but actually look stunningly gorgeous who would be embarrassed of her and call her a man in a dress. It’s all relative.
“The transgender groups boo me, now, when I speak. Isnâ€™t that ironic?”
no, her fucking backstabbing the community is ironic. she was working so hard to get her own acceptance but now she doesn’t think we deserve rights?
We already ARE viable workers! Susan _was let go from her job_ ***because she is trans*** and then turns around and says that the USA isn’t ready for trans rights? There’s something wrong here, very very wrong and it’s not with us…
Wake up. The rest of the world is coming around: trans rights, trans-inclusive healthcare… and where is the United States?
How long will this issue be swatted back and forth before it becomes the elephant in the room that nobody mentions?
Steve may now be Susan, but the one thing that hasn’t changed is her conservative views.
What does it mean for the country to “not be ready”? What should we be doing in the meantime? Of course the country isn’t ready for trans rights. It’s not really ready for queer to have rights, or people of color to have rights, or for women to have rights — that’s why we need them. If everyone in the country supported a minority group’s rights, then there wouldn’t be any need for protections, they wouldn’t really be a minority anymore.
Yet the rhetoric of “the country is not ready” seems to indicate that we just need to wait — it’s not our time yet. But rights have never come to minority groups that patiently waited for them. Rights are given only after we fight, vociferously and furiously, without giving up or slowing down until we have what we want.
HRC probably told the bitch that they’d take some ‘o that money they get from their gullible supporters and pay for her gender re-assignment surgery if she’d come out against trans rights via the same bullshit reasons HRC is against trans rights.
Flightofthebirds, have you actually studied any civil rights movement? Do you think Arkansas was ‘ready’ for the Little Rock 9? NO community ever gets ahead without putting up a ruckus. And, by the way, your sense of smug comfort shows that you have never thought about what it means to throw our community’s less-than-mainstream members under the bus. While you may feel comfortable as a (I’m apologize for assuming but would find it hard to believe otherwise) white, gender-conformative male who just happens to every once in a while suck a dick, you need to examine how safe you actually are if the ‘acceptance’ of society is predicated on NEVER ROCKING THE BOAT. If we don’t make it safe for the genderfuckers, transfolk, and other non-mainstream queers, the minute that the country decides to pull back the bounds of acceptability to 1950’s era America (which, I hate to break it to you, CAN happen), you will realize that your smug sense of comfort doesn’t mean shit. By the way, before you call me some out there radical, I happen to be a white, gender-conformative (for the most part) male who just happens to have read a little bit of history.
Now that my blood pressure has lowered to a reasonable level, let me direct flightofthebirds and his groveling ilk to this little ditty:
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
You think if you throw the transfolk under the bus to get your rights then there will be anyone left when the right wing goes after you?
wow, people were loving her when she was being a good poster child and now she’s “a bitch” when she states the fact that most americans don’t even see us as being productive members of society. News flash if Americans did see us as being worthy, she wouldn’t have been FIRED. she didn’t leave her job, she was fired and she is still unemployed 9 months later. Do I agree with her about HRC not fighting for an inclusive bill especially when they knew that this was all for show anyways, HELL NO but I understand and have some basic compassion for where she is coming from. She is the one who no longer has a job, ANY FRIENDS, no family all because she was being true to herself and she’s been transitioning publicly for almost a whole year. I amazed she’s stil standing. She’s a middle aged conservative small town politican who became a rallying point for nation and it certainly wasn’t something she planned or wanted but now that she isn’t so useful to everyone or has her own imperfect views and dares to say them, people feel free to throw stones at her.
Maybe people want to try reading the whole original article and not just two sentences from it. It would be wonderful if she was the ideal trans rep and had dealt with her own issues and was perfect but I have yet to meet a perfect spokesperson yet for any group or view.
How exactly are we any better than the fear-mongers who attack us?
Susan needs to look in the mirror as she needs a little work herself, cough..(ugly man in dress). I don’t see how she can’t identify with the need to protect LGBT rights, when she herself is transgender. Sure, she can have her opinion that Trans people do not need protection. However when she tries to get a job, and is refused because she is not a “viable worker” I don’t want to hear her scream and bitch that she was discriminated against because she is T! Someone really needs to give her a reality check, in the most serious manner.
How wonderful ENDA was passed!
I am not throwing trans folks under the bus, I just happen to be a realist. And as a matter of fact, I have read history. But do you know how much history matters? Zero. People have a memory of about 8 secs on a bad day and maybe a week on a good day. History does not matter to voters, to legislators, to anyone.
But back to the point at hand, just like every other civil rights act in this country, it is going to have to come from the courts (even the 64 Civil Rights Act was put in motion by the courts). Legislatively it is NOT going to happen anytime soon. This is a divisive issue even among the LGBTQ community (10-15% of the population) let alone the rest of the country. Just look at the war, 67% of country oppose us being there, and Congress still has not done anything about that. Do you think they are going to do anything on an issue that under 50% of Americans (gay marriage) or worse something like 11 or 12% support (trans rights)? Please!!
And thanks to the conservative ass hat presidents that have occupied the White House pretty much since 1980 (including Clinton to some extent), and Congress pretty much since 1994, our courts are steamy pile of idealogical f**ktards who would much rather make sure the feelings of ExxonMobil and Verizon are not hurt than actually do anything for the people of the country, especially a group of a perhaps a few hundred thousand.
So we give up, just decide to throw in the towel?
Holy shit! Susan, I’ve seen a lot of misguided bigots in this world, but you take the cake Miss Thang. As for the “man in the dress” comment, YOU are that man in a dress, sugar. That’s what the world thinks about you too. And to think I wasted time watching you on the television. What a Benedict Arnold you’ve turned out to be, you asshole. FUCK YOU, bitch.
She was obviously rude, and that’s understatement. But perhaps she just doesn’t see herself as a “transgender”.
There is nothing novel in that point of view whatsoever.
Hmm. I read the article last night. To give Susan the benefit of the doubt, she might have been quoted out of context – though it’s tough to find a context in which these words would be innocuous. It hurts when I consider that she’s talking about me. I qualify as a heterosexual crossdresser – not that I like the categorizatiion. But that seems to be the ugly underside of the trans community. And Susan nails it. Crossdressers are the redheaded stepchildren of the trans community which, in turn, is the redheaded stepchild of the GLBT community. I wish we could all come together, all races, creeds, nationalities, sexual and gender orientations, and have a good belly laugh at how absurd we all are. It’s embarrassing enough just being human.
yeah, um this is sad. it’s part of the class/political divide. the richer or more conservative they get, the harder they will fall.
no underground support networks for you, susie dear, when fascism turns full tilt. oh, you are white and speak good english so we know who your johns are. grasp for your diamonds now, baby, before they fall into the mud and become raindrops.
yeah, i agree with other posters: since when were rights handed to us on a silver platter? trannies must stop turning on each other and start kicking ass! what makes us unique should be celebrated and not a liability when it comes to organizing… but then people think they can play breakaway and race to the top of the societal food chain, only to find themselves spinning in circles.
a pissed off trannyboy
I don’t care how many surgeries he can afford with his wealth…
That’s a MAN, baby!
After decades of male privilege, spooging in his wife’s panties just wasn’t enough…he had to show up with his 50s version of “womanhood” and embarrass us.
My crossdresser friends would be embarrassed to hang with this POS!
He will fit into the HRC perfectly.
Wait a minute, her comments “make [you] question [your] unwavering support for her decision?”
So when non-trans GLB people say stupid shit reflecting their internalized homophobia, the obvious response is to question their “decision” to be in gay and lesbian relationships?
Give me a fucking break.
Susan Stanton is a complete tool. Lol @ calling trans women “a bunch of men in dresses” and suggesting that they don’t deserve rights without “proving” it (just like non-trans people do, amirite?) and then wondering why they don’t like you.
good point megan j… i missed that important detail re internalized phobias.
I hope her dick grows back.
*written before I read the comments*
This not shocking nor should her words be taken as an indictment against trans-rights — she does NOT speak for all transgendered people.
Also, it is not shocking to me, as someone inside the community. It was her comment about seeing “men in dresses” that stood out to and for me. See, there’s a trend… once someone transitions, especially if they can “pass”, usually that person washes their hands with GLB folks in total and assimilate into heterosexuality — especially when, now, they feel their bodies will allow them to have nice, normal relationships with people of their choosing.
We must not blame these folks. They are a product of their environment. After spending their whole lives feeling like an anomaly, they are finally able to fit into society the way they want to be seen and that is, partially, what this is about.
Perhaps this country is NOT ready for trans-rights. However, this country never got ready for people demanding to be treated like human beings in vacuums, people. You HAVE to agitate. You HAVE to talk about it. You HAVE to say, hey, regardless of whether Alice looks like a man in a dress SHE DESERVES PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW to not lose her livelihood.
In my gay youth, gay people used to work to free everyone… not just some of us.
A real live gay transfluid person.
I don’t understand if she really is giving the cold shoulder to her own kind, or just has a bad way of getting accross what she wants to say.
Passable or not, at least she is not living her life in stealth. Plus I don’t think she is turning tricks to make a living. I believe turning tricks and living in stealth poison us more than someone coming out and stating her opinions.
Really how can we be taking seriously, when the most we care about, is how pretty and passable we are to the public? We so crave to be seen as sexual objects, and then object when it happens…it is funny crazy. We all wish to be able to go into stealth mode, but then how can we stand up and be counted? Besides now, with our rights as citizens(all USA citizens), being chip away with these ‘national security’ laws, it is getting so much harder for anyone to stay in stealth. If you think no one will ever find out about you, no matter how well you pass, you are lying to yourself. Just because one has been Blessed to be able to go in stealth does not give one a womb. Stop holding your head high and mighty, take off your tiara, and stand up with your sisters. We would all benefit a hell of lot more, if we stand together and stop fighting.
Also, if you have a man, boyfriend, husband, or significant other, then you make sure they stand up and be counted with us. It is not fair for us to shoulder all the burden. We are desired by many. If they are ashamed to be seen with us, or stand with us, then we are better off without them. We have our own problems then to have to be dragged down by others with deeper problems then our own. Yes, I believe it is much worse for a person to be attracted to us, live and love us, but be afraid to let the world know, then for us trans to try to just live our life. As long as we allow ourselves to be used sexual, is as long as we will never be taken seriously. The choice is ours.
Sure it may take along time to change the way the general public sees us. It may not even benefit us, in our lifetime. The only thing I can say, is that would it not be grand if for the ones that come after us, have it so good as to not even think about being ashamed for being trans, to not even think about what the ones before them did, and for no one to be ashamed to be their lover.
So Mz. Thang stated her opinions, she came pretty close to describing the way things are with our community. Plus, she did it showing her face, everyone knows she is trans, because she is not in stealth.
So Susan Stanton doesn’t think the US is “ready” for trans rights? Here are a few dates and facts about quaint old-fashioned Britain that are maybe worth keeping in mind…
Since 1996 European Community law has upheld the employment rights of transsexual people.
Since April 1999 it has been unlawful in Britain for anyone to discriminate against a transsexual person in employment. This functional equivalent of ENDA passed into law without a murmur.
In 2004 Parliament passed the Gender Recognition Act; giving unambiguous legal recognition to transsexual people even if, in some cases, they are unable to have genital reassignment surgery. The Act passed with a massive Parliamentary majority. Since then several thousand applications have been processed without event.
Last month UK law was further updated to outlaw discrimination against transsexual people in the supply of goods and services.
I know these facts well because, as a campaigner, I worked closely on them all. In 2005 my colleagues and I were awarded national honours in respect for that work.
So now please stop accepting the terms of the debate that suggest that America is somehow “not ready” for a fraction of the same. So long as you remain bogged down in questionning whether it is even right to have equality you won’t begin to achieve it.
I know many many trans women, and believe, many are great people, but some still have this attitude “I’m a woman, not a fucking faggot.” I have heard that said SO many times that it can undermine my support for Trans People. Too many trans people pull the straight privilege card (“i’d be straight if i was born into the right body).
Currently, Susan is jobless. The process of transition has the ability to force one to look deep within oneself as to who they really are and how the world views them. The longer Susan remains jobless due to her trans-woman status, there will be a reality check on her internalized transphobia. There will come a day when Susan will get her comeuppance about who she really is, her internalized self hatred and self fear. Many trans folks are so naive and dreamy during their first few years of transition. The false belief that genital and cosmetic surgery will fix everything and make me the instantly “passable’ as their target gender. The realty is, it takes many years for the effects of hormones to complete and once, post op, many of their problems pre-op are still there and many gain a few more difficulties post-op. This seems to happen far less to trans folks who have lived in their target gender for a good number of years, figured who they really are and have settled their lives before having surgery. It also appears female to males have a better perspective on genital surgery than male to females as many see surgery as an answer to their core problems which is not true.
Qjersey wrote, “I know many many trans women, and believe, many are great people, but some still have this attitude â€œIâ€™m a woman, not a fucking faggot.â€”
Our commmunity needs to work on this kind of stuff. Homophobia effects everyone, and some transwomen no doubt grew up being called a “f–king f-gg-t.” I can relate: As a transman, I often got called various derogatory versions of “lesbian,” even though I identify as a gay male. As a result, I had to work through a lot of internalized female homophobia.
Sea Flood wrote, “This not shocking nor should her words be taken as an indictment against trans-rights â€” she does NOT speak for all transgendered people.”
There is a disconnect between the transsexual and transgender communities. A lot of us don’t understand transgendered people, specifically people who consider themselves the opposite sex of their bodies but have no interest in making hormonal or surgical alterations. And then, there are also transsexuals, of both sexes, who haven’t reached passing yet, but want to rush into fully living as their target sex.
We must be sensitive to the fact that many ciswomen are afraid of men, particularly if they show up in women-only spaces. Many cismen are afraid of homosexuality. And many cis people as a whole are afraid of sexual ambiguity. We can’t advance our rights without showing that we recognize those facts, and working to allay people’s fears. Most importantly, we need to demonstrate that we respect women’s fears of men.
A few points:
First, bboy, no of course we don’t give up the fight. You have to fight. But you also have to realize that when HRC supports a non-inclusive ENDA bill they are doing so for a reason, not because they are trying to throw trans individuals under the bus. They are working within the confines of Washington and doing what they can. Definitely not perfect, but certainly more than every reader of this blog could do.
Second, Christine, in case you have not noticed, this country is still trying to figure out if a woman or a black man can be elected president. Thatcher was elected in 1980(?). Pakistan has had a female leader twice in 60 years, and was nearly on the verge of a third. There are people in this country still fighting the Civil War (in their minds), that war ended roughly 150 years ago. There is a long way to go before we are not mired in this debate.
Christine, unfortunately the US is a world away from the UK in both gay and transgender rights and acceptance. Most of this is religious based, the US has a much, much higher percentage of rabid fundamental Christians than the UK who fight against equality every chance they get, and the more liberal Christians rarely get heard from to counter the extremists. Atheists and agnostics are not exactly tolerated well here, either.
Saying that, that’s no excuse for not fighting for equal rights for everyone. Giving in to religious pressure because it’s easier is a cop out.
Certainly tragic events – It is unfortunate for US developments regarding trans person(s) rights, that need too boost social awareness, and assist the US, to come up to the encouraging standards of Europe, Canada and Australia that were seeing.
Susan Stanton’s lacking maturity and experience with her own life issues and very early on in the process of transition, has had negative repercussions to those who have worked and continue to work hard so these issues to be tabled in all aspects of society.
Though this is tragic and very unfortunate circumstances, it is never great to see someone in circumstances like this implode and life collapse in front of them. That is not good for anyone, though the frustration around her comments is warranted.
The challenge is already so great – we don’t need more.
It certainly is a very sad situation and very tragic on all fronts.
Susan apparently is saying that she was misquoted and taken out of context. At least at this point she is refusing to say which part is not true and what her actual perspective is. She is planning to release a statement about it.
Personally, I’m wondering just how out of context this is. But it looks like we’ll have to wait and see what she has to say.
â€œThe biggest issue against the federal legislation is that politicians think the ladiesâ€™ rooms will be invaded by guys in drag,â€ Susan says, â€œinstead of someone like me.â€
Proof positive that hierarchy exists in every culture and sub-culture on the planet. A post-op who can pass is better than one that can not, who is better than a pre-op, who is better than someone in transition, who is better than a cross-dresser. Hell, there are even levels within those levels; on mones, had ffs, breast augmentation, et cetera, ad infinitum.
Whomever said that this is a blatant example of Susan’s male privilege showing through hit the nail right on the head. She desperately wants to hang on to the fact that she is “better” than other people because of some status or trait. Susan, honey, I saw you on the HRC debate; you were a foot taller than the guy interviewing you and your arms looked like they could have fed a pack of Hyenas for a month.
As a trans woman (Susan) early on in her process of transition and in the public spot light, there are times when it’s simply best to say nothing. What what you say to whom and how the words are spoken.
Regardless, her reputation had taken a hit and recovery will be questionable.
For what every reason, many trans folks feel the need to “educate” as their early coming out process. Fact is, many trans folks early in their transition lack the maturity and experience in their target gender to be in the public light and not put their foot in mouth or say something that damages the community as a whole.
It will be interesting to see what Susan might be like 10 years from now. After hormones had a chance to affect her entire mind and body, after being post VAG surgery. While there are tall women in this world, passing could be a problem for Susan which would result her mostly being perceived as a trans-woman and a lightning rod for trans discrimination and prejudice. Will her views and attitude regarding trans/gender equality change?
It is clear that Susan’s male privilege has afforded her ability to have VAG and other possible gender related surgeries early on and similar medical treatments that the vast majority of trans folks struggle for years to get.
It is quite possible Susan has enough investment to afford her a comfy life even if she remains jobless.
Miss Understood wrote:
I hope her dick grows back.
I think that we just saw it…
Beyond that, this is a worrisome loose cannon on deck for trans rights.
This, um, individual, has a patently offensive view of women in this world (see Transadvocate for more Stanton verbal faux pas), money, influence, and a position as a gay sanctioned trans mouthpiece.
This unit is also not in a social position to actually learn how to be a woman.
And this makes Stanton DANGEROUS!
It’s as if Phyllis Sclaffley had a dick and money for half a century…
Thats one ugly gal.
Eric- of course HRC had a “reason.” Of course they didn’t just get up one morning and say “Let’s go beat up on the trannies, cause we hate the trannies.” The reason was that they saw they had a better chance of getting theirs by throwing us under the bus. HRC’s leader also stood up in front of a big room full of trans folk and lied to their faces, claiming they would most definitely not do what they proceeded to turn right around and do.
Don’t you get it? The point is that HRC USES us. And they do it quite knowingly and deliberately. They put us in bills so they have an easy bargaining chip to take out to get the bills passed. We’re their human shields.
OK! Then it’s settled.
Who’s bringing the tar, the feathers, and rail.
Or maybe a silver bullet would be better,
…or a sharp stake and hammer.
What vile histrionics.
I can agree with you all that Susan is new and needs time to grow as a transgender to understand the needs of us and her both. But being that she is in the public eye she must be careful with her comments. Like the following statements from her.
* * *
Susan has met hundreds of other people like her. She was among the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people lobbying for a law that would make it illegal for others to discriminate against them.
But Susan has said all along that she’s not like other transgender people. She feels uncomfortable even looking at some, “like I’m seeing a bunch of men in dresses.”
It does not take a pretty face, but it does take care in yourself and confidence in your presentation. I am not passable like some. I wish I were LOL. But we are who we are. If you are going to be in the lime light and speak for us like Susan you should have care for the feelings of those you project towards. All that know me know I love everyone regardless. Both Drag Queens and T-Girls are my Sisters even the ones that don’t like me, till the end.
Eventually, she decided it was too early for transgender people to be federally protected. People need more time, more education, she says. “The transgender groups boo me, now, when I speak. Isn’t that ironic?
Susan said above that it is too early for us to be federally protected. I have been fighting my whole life. How long does it take? I had to wear a dam button that said I was a man back in 1969. I have been taken to jail because I dressed like a girl when going out to the club and the police would raid the clubs and take everybody downtown to run warrents and records checks. I had to sell myself to be able to afford to eat. I had to sleep on a bench or in a hotel lobby for I had no place to live. I couldn’t find a job. NO one wanted to hire me. I had nobody, no place, at the age of 22. Which was 38 years ago. I paid the price Susan hasn’t. Susan has only been out 1 year she does not have the RIGHT to say it is too early for US. Maybe for her it is but not for me, nor my friends that died along the way living their lives, surviving as best as they could. Sorry this has started me crying. I Boo her for this over and over. She has no right to judge us only GOD does.
“But I don’t blame the human rights groups from separating the transgender people from the protected groups. Most Americans aren’t ready for us yet,” Susan says. Transgender people need to be able to prove they’re still viable workers — especially in the mainstream.
“The biggest issue against the federal legislation is that politicians think the ladies’ rooms will be invaded by guys in drag,” Susan says, “instead of someone like me.”
First, she needs a job. She has applied for more than 100 positions in city management, but has interviewed in only four cities — Sarasota, Naples, Tempe, Ariz., and Berkeley, Calif.
Susan made a statement above that we need to prove ourselves, Do you agree with her statement? I am sure you all are well qualified in your chosen Carrier. This statement was not fair to the transgender people. This sounds very much like she was coached by Barney Frank.
Susan says that the ladies room will be invaded by guys in drag instead of someone like her. WOW that hits below the belt like my Drag Sisters are inferior to her. Susan needs to think first of what she wants to say before she speaks to the press. She should sit back and think why she is being ostracized.
Lastly her last paragraph. She has applied 100 times for a job in four cities. She wonders why she can’t get work. She speaks of how qualified she is. Well, she needs to look at her own statements above and see how and what she says effects her chances.
Are you aware that Barney Frank has asked Susan Stanton to speak in front of a Congressional Committee on our behalf? To give them the information they need to help determine if we have rights like all other Americans to work without Discrimination. In my opinion, Susan is not qualified to give that speech to a Congressional Committee. She will most likely put us back in the Dark Ages. There are many more qualified Activist that would fit that need better. Susan is all about the center of attention and not US.
I have nothing against her personally. Some of you said she needs to learn because she is new. But please, not at mine or others expense. She along with HRC is tearing all our work from the last 30 years apart. Our wonderful HRC has for the last 20 years shown they do NOT want us. The proof is in their actions not just from me. Along with Susan Stanton’s comments we as a Society will never see Equality in anything.
I do respect all of your opinions. We as human beings are given the gift from GOD to think for ourselves and formulate our own reasons for being. I have been there all my life. I can see the path that Susan’s ignorance, and inexperience is taking us down.
We are Doomed. I hate to say this, but we are. I see a lot of fighting on line and in the blogs. I feel like that the most it gives us the satisfaction of comment. But No end result can come from making a Internet post. I know of some, that want to have educational events. Some want to contact Susan and educate her. I think that is good but we are running out of time. What do we do? Susan Stanton with her Ignorance and inexperience is killing our chances to progress. We are spending a lot of time trying to stop her before she does more harm. Our energy could be spent building bridges showing the world we are people by using educational methods.
Congressman Barney Frank HRC’S hero is winning. I can’t stop them can you? We need to do something and fast. I have been told we have 360 Transgender Avocate groups. WOW. Now what. It would take time to organize into one to be able to be effective in our quest. How Long? Do you know? I do, it would take years and lots of money to be a viable force. In the mean time we are loosing ground. General George Patton once said he won’t pay for the same Real Estate twice. We should follow what he said. But how? Tell me please.
Hugs Janice Covington Allison http://www.transcarolina.org
There is a political agenda at work here. The old boy network of Barney Frank’s and his views towards transgender or gender different individuals represents the gay & lesbian establishment as they have generally not liked trans or gender different individuals from the very beginning. Who should forget Janice Raymond’s, “Transsexual Empire” which represents an entire generation of lesbian beliefs towards trans folks which is alive and well to this day. It is likely Barney has chosen Susan Stanton as nothing more than a mouth piece and prop to support his anti-transgender agenda. It is likely Susan is too early in her transition, sense of womanhood and gender maturity to properly represent the gender community. Simply put, Barney is using Susan for this political gain. She is nothing more than a foil in Barney’s world of politics. It also appers Susan is deaf to what is happening and how she is being used due to her internalized transphobia and lack of maturity.
Another question would be, will HRC enlist Susan as their transgender spokes woman as she appears to support HRC’s view of trans folks? The one voice for the gender community?
Link to Susan’s web page and her statement regarding what has happened:
Susan is simply saying there is a huge difference between a “transgendered” and a “transsexual”.
Susan is saying that men who know they are men and who obviously will remain men are not the same… men who like to femmie up are still men.
Those of you trashing Susan need to understand something “transgenderers” are MEN.
True transsexuals are WOMEN.
There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.
A major part of the problem concerning this is trying to lump “transgenders” under the same umbrella as true “transsexuals.”
MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT.
A true mtf “transsexual” is a person with a female brain… from birth onwards.
A male “transgender” is anyone else who fancies femming up for personal or sexual reasons.
IF any male “transgender” here thinks differently then you dont understand the real meaning of “transsexual” and probably never will; what guy understands how it is to be a woman?
Demi, you are so right.
“A true mtf â€œtranssexualâ€ is a person with a female brainâ€¦ from birth onwards.”
There’s some evidence for sex-reversed brain structures, but just saying that over and over again doesn’t make it so. Sorry.
How does any one individual know what another individual truly feels? I know genetic women who would say that only a genetic woman who has menstruated and experienced childbirth understands how it is to be a woman. But there are genetic women who were born incapable of either. I am genetically male and only present as a woman at certain times, but I have friends amongst the feminist spirituality community who accept me fully as a woman. I accept that as an honor with full knowledge that I will never have had the experiences that they have had.
I have a card that says, “If you think you know what’s going on, you’re probably full of shit.” I’m not trying to hurl insults, but am merely trying to say that in trying to make sense of gender we are dealing with one of the great mysteries of humanity. If we start thinking we’ve got all the answers or try to make hard and fast definitions, we will probably find our arguments full of holes.
And Demi, the only woman in the world whose existence you will ever come close to comprehending is you.
Oh, and one other thing: “Transgendered” is the umbrella term. I’m transgendered and so are you. I, however, am not transsexual. It took me a lot of counseling and soul searching to realize that. I’m just on a different spot on the continuum, that’s all. I may have a female brain; I may not. How do you know that you do?
With love and respect for everyone here.
After nattering about hard and fast definitions, it just occurred to me that I’ve tried to define “transgendered,” thus contradicting myself. “…I am large, I contain multitudes.”
WTF? Absrudity is the human condition.
Absurdity. I’m going to bed.
Thier is another important component to this story that affects our community…this is an interesting phenom actually that I have observed from a few folks even without clear trans or homo phobia present, it’s not something new and not confined to just trans folk etc…but I will limit my discussion to how it affects the trans community… For some pre-ops and even some post-op folks I know who are identified as politically and socially conservative etc, they tend to say things to appease thier conservative friends or extended conservative community in hopes of winning their acceptance by trying to dilute or minimize the perceived “thorn” of trans rights on conservative ideology/community as if to say afterwards “please let me live and just get by…I promise I will be no trouble” I call it “The Lion and Mouse Syndrome” after the famous Children’s Story where the mouse removes a thorn from the lions paw….. They typically feel as though they are helping themselves and to some extent the trans community and often do not see the larger damage they cause. It’s really sad when you stop to think about it… it’s a self-defeating way of coping with the loss of most of their conservative friends and community….it’s even more sad to have the majority of the trans community bear yet another cross (political and personal) for someones personal insecurity …
demi – bitch please! you and susan and the hrc need high-speed tickets to the 21st century.
Has Susan Stanton been in contact with anyone since she posted to her web page? The hate; e-mail, phone calls,ect were far worse than when she was first fired. I right now feel Susan Stanton was treated way to badly! HRC and Barney Frank used her! The trans-community were angry. Susans’s supposed quotes
in the newspaper not only ignited a Major Flame some of the supposed quotes added a Big Fuel source! Every time some bill has been brought to the political table the Trans. and Bi’s have been used as throw aways, bargaining chips if you will by the HRC! NO MORE! WE DO NOT WANT TO BE BARGAINED AWAY! The message is for any Bi. Or Trans. to not Support any HRC Program! No win Backs! WE can only be led by us for us! I personally hope that Susan Stanton is OK ! Reginanjus
Demi, you are so wrong.
Keep on regurgitating those bullshit trans-hierarchical clichÃ©s to try and step on other trans people’s backs to make yourself look better; I’m sure that bigoted employers or bashers or other people in a position to do you harm for being trans are going to stop and ask “oh wait, are you a TRUE transsexual or one of those FALSE transsexuals? Because if you’re the latter we’re going to have beat the shit out of you/fire you/kill you/rape you/whatever now, but we’ll let you go if you’re the former!”
While it’s certainly possible (and I personally believe that there’s likely some biological cause of being trans, but really no one can say to what extent), the claim that there’s a brain sex differentiating between men and women that results in people being trans when one’s brain sex doesn’t match one’s body sex is, as yet, unverified, and anyone subscribing to it is basing it on faith alone.
You’ve completely bought into the theorizing of someone who still thinks that trans people are freaks, but that they’re not *really* one of them so it’s okay.
It’s externalized internalized transphobia, ha ha.
Victims and Excuses
Different than means different than, not better than.
Sorry, I read it and all I saw was “blah blah blah I’m an otherwise-privileged tranny who spent how many decades as a man with a college education and a career as an engineer at a large corporation and shit turned out alright for me after I bought my transition so anyone who acknowledges the existence of transphobia is just playing up the victim card blah blah blah so stfu blah.”
You’re fucking kidding yourself if you think that trans people who single groups of trans people which they think they don’t belong to like Demi just did there that they aren’t suggesting that they’re superior to them. The classist Susan Stanton did it in the response posted above by Rupunzel with trans women who “[the general public sees] on the Jerry Springer Show,” post-op trans men and trans women do it to pre- or non-op trans men and trans women, trans women do it to crossdressers, crossdressers do it to gay men, gay men do it to trans women, etc.
And the point is always they same: “We’re not freaks like *them*”
By the way: how does it feel to be a token for cis people to wave around and say “look they’re all just exaggerating?”
I imagine that it must feel pretty comfortable.
flightoftheseabird said “She highlights what I have been saying during this whole ENDA debate.
. . . this country IS NOT READY for trans rights. And HRC was correct in supporting a non-inclusive bill. . . and here a trans MTF is saying it.” This highlights exactly why Stanton should concentrate solely on her transition and career. Whether or not she was quoted out of context is immaterial; she hasn’t the experience in the community to speak for us. And now she’s given the Barney Frank and Chris Crain types fresh ammo to use against us. Good job, Stanton. Practice this phrase for the next time someone shoves a microphone in your face: “no comment.”
Megan, your blog name, That Fucking Shemale, indicates you self identify as a shemale…a gay male who feminizes themselves to attract other gay males. Whatever rocks your boat, sweetpea, knock yourself out. On the other hand, that hardly gives you any insight into HBS/transsexualism. It’s not difficult at all to see why you don’t get it. Considering I’ve been through my transition longer than you appear to be old, your opinion on the issue is just a half notch above irrelevant.
It’s not a matter of being superior, it’s a matter of difference…whether you want to believe it or not.
Actually, I’m a transsexual, a shemale, a trap, a ladyboy, a dickgirl, a trans woman, a trap, and anything else you want to call me along those lines.
I’m not a gay male, though, because I
a) am bisexual, and
b) don’t identify as male.
HBS is bullshit whipped up by trans women filled with self-hate who are more interested in putting all of their faith in a theory (not, mind you, based on anything like scientific research) that defines them as perpetually sick which they think allows them to distance themselves from both the rest of the queer community and any part of the trans community who isn’t full of as much internalized transphobia as they are and isn’t willing to go into deep hiding and cut themselves off from their lives before or during transition. It’s pathetic and I only feel sorry for you.
I’d say that I have HBS as much as you do, but I’m afraid that I just don’t hate myself or feel sick enough to do so 🙁
Just because you’re a fucking fossil doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about any more than I do 😉
And, â€œby the wayâ€â€¦
From the late 1950â€™s, when GRS became a bit easier to have, until the mid 1990â€™s or so, the GLBT hardly heard a word out of HBS/transsexual women and men. We had our surgery, corrected the problem, and went on about our lives. The transgender construct was never meant to include us. And yes, it is a construct. As Iâ€™m sure you know, transgender was the term coined by Charles â€œVirginiaâ€ Prince, a female impersonator who was quite proud to be male, to specifically differentiate HBS/transsexuals and crossdressers, transvestites, shemales, and other gender variants like yourself who do not feel innately female and do not want to have gender reassignment surgery. Transgendered folks never were considered the same as transsexuals, and they are still not. It has only been in the past few years that HBS/transsexuals have become more vocal because it is the transgendered who just canâ€™t seem to bring themselves to acknowledge there is a difference between HBS/transsexual and transgendered. And speak up we will continue to do.
I donâ€™t give a damn about Susan Stanton, she can defend herself. Itâ€™s revisionists like you who irk me. Itâ€™s people like you, who have been around a few short years, live in front of a computer screen, and have learned all the â€œtransâ€ buzz words subsequently thinking that qualifies themselves to rewrite gender history and the medical and psychological research of the past 60 years. People like you, who canâ€™t discuss the issue without using phobic, or separatists, or divisive in the discussion. It seems like itâ€™s transgendered people like you who are the phobic ones when it comes to discussing HBS/transsexualsâ€¦you canâ€™t stand us, and your post above proves it. We are not separatists nor divisive, because we were never, EVER a part of, or meant to be a part of the transgender construct to start with. And we STRONGLY object to being categorized as something we arenâ€™t, never were, and never will be.
That’s about right, now you are redefining shemale, too. Well, you go off into your little world and reinvent and redefine until the cows come home, but that not going to change one damn thing.
You don’t even know the meaning of Harry Benjamin Syndrome, if you did, and you CLAIM to be transsexual, though you ADMIT to being a shemale, you would realize that calling someone with HBS sick is synonymous with admitting you, yourself, are infected.
I don’t argue with red bricks about gender, particularly if they are shemale…I’m through with this discussion.
“Shemale” isn’t synonymous with either “trans woman” or “chick with a dick” anymore?
Because, if I recall correctly, its earlier users were both by transphobic feminists like Janice Raymond to mean any and every person on the trans-feminine side of the trans community and by pornographers who used it in reference to trans-feminine people who had dicks– regardless of who they fucked, in both cases.
And I fit neatly into both of those categories, sry2tellu.
I’m a transsexual as much as you’re a transsexual.
Meanings change, especially for words that were neologisms just twenty years ago. I and many, many other trans people use “transgender” both as an umbrella term for all kinds of trans folks and as an identity that some trans people– whether they be crossdressers or transsexuals– choose to use, although I prefer just to use “trans community.”
Obviously because I’ve only been living as a woman for half a decade I must have spent the entire time doing nothing but sitting in front of my computer arguing with dumb motherfuckers like you. Because that completely makes sense somehow.
Just because you’re old doesn’t mean you’re right.
In one sentence:
Research starting 60 years or so ago, and continuing up to today, revealed that transsexualism was distinctly different from transvestism and slowly gender reassignment surgery started to become more and more available to transsexuals to correct natureâ€™s mistake and, after these transsexuals had their gender surgery, the overwhelming majority of them simply merged into society with no other wish than to live there life in peace because states were increasingly recognizing and legitimizing postoperative transsexuals as far back as the mid 1960â€™s by allowing them to change their birth certificates to match their chosen gender, but Charles â€œVirginiaâ€ Prince, a female impersonator loathed these transsexuals so she called all of her fellow crossdressers and female impersonators transgender people so that the transsexuals who were innately female, wanted gender surgery, and of which she thought were crazy would not be confusedwith crossdressers and transvestites, which worked out well for everyone – because the crossdressers knew they werenâ€™t transsexual and the transsexuals knew they werenâ€™t crossdressers – until the gay rights movement came along and incorporated the gay crossdressers into their fold and the Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexuals became known as the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender movement and started referring to and promoting transsexuals as also being transgender and part of one big gender spectrum in which no one was really different than anyone else, regardless of what the medical and psychological research showed, just at a different point on a scale which, of course, did not sit well with the transsexuals so they began to object but when the transsexuals tried to point out that they were not the same as the transgendered, the transgendered became livid and were stunned that these elitist bitches would have the gall to suggest that they were not the same, not to mention that these same transsexuals were not pleased with having their identity defined by the gay movement either, so the transgendered really became angry that the transsexuals would even vaguely suggest such a divisive and separatist idea as separating from the gay movement, because the transgendered knew full well that the issues of the entirely sexuality oriented gay movement was certainly the same as the issues of the entirelygender oriented transgender movement, much less returning the transsexuals identity to them just because the transsexualâ€™s identity had been established and validated for the past 60 years and suggesting such an idea proved that transsexuals thought they were much better than the rest of the transgendered proving the transsexuals were elitist, but the transgendered knew that the transgendered were just as female as the transsexuals and would object to any other line of reasoningâ€¦no matter what it was.
Sure I do– people with HBS think that they’re just sick with a disease that means they’ve got female brains in male bodies and therefore and not really queer at all and being trans is just something they have to *get over*, so they don’t have to worry about things like trans rights because they’re too busy trying to “blend” with cisgender people (which is ironic, because it seems that many HBSers are people who didn’t transition until later in life and therefore tend not to “pass,” for want of a better word, as well as some of us).
Your copypasta’d run-on sentence means nothing except that it’s kind of hilarious, given how much you’re railing on about how I’m not a *real* woman like *you are* when it’s probably pretty likely, since I transitioned in my teens whereas you, if that blog entry you linked to was written by you, transitioned rather later in life after the high levels of testosterone had taken their toll, that you don’t “pass” as well as a woman half as well as I do ;p
And I’d ask you to cite the sources you’re referring to when you say that medical and psychological research over the past sixty years supports the HBS model, please.
…And that will be where the discussion ends because, in fact, you have no sources.
“people with HBS think that theyâ€™re just sick with a disease that means theyâ€™ve got female brains in male bodies and therefore and not really queer at all”
That is the standard answer from effeminate gay males when presented with heterosexual transsexuals. From the 1960’s to today, the only thing that has changed is the way they present. It much easier to “swish” wearing silk.
“being trans is just something they have to *get over*, so they donâ€™t have to worry about things like trans rights because theyâ€™re too busy trying to â€œblendâ€ with cisgender people”
The purpose of transition is to become one with the gender you are transitioning too. The purpose of being a she-male is to make money in the sex trade, or entice sex from other homosexual and bisexual males. Post Op transsexuals not only don’t have to *worry about* trans rights, but don’t need or want them because they already have the same rights as genetic women in mainstream. Post Operative heterosexual transsexuals usually end up married to straight males, as is my case.
“(which is ironic, because it seems that many HBSers are people who didnâ€™t transition until later in life and therefore tend not to â€œpass,â€ for want of a better word, as well as some of us).
First of all, for most, transition was not as easy in the 50′, 60’s and 70’s as it has become since the advent of the Internet and the disemination of related information. Back then, there were very few psychiatrists or even surgeons that practiced or even had knowledge of transsexualism. By the same token, the term “Transgender” had not yet been coined so there were no transgenders. For that matter, the terms, she-male, gender queer and chicks with dicks had also not been coined. Back then those people were simply refered to as effeminate gay males or by the street name “Swisher’s”. They had the same attitudes then that they display today as “she-males”, that is one of disdain and disrepect for transsexuals. They were then and are today the same egotistical, elitist, loud mouthed and objectionable gay males the gay lifestyle had to offer. As for *Passing* .. how well do you pass in bed?
“given how much youâ€™re railing on about how Iâ€™m not a *real* woman like *you are*…..you donâ€™t â€œpassâ€ as well as a woman half as well as I do ;p”
There’s that ego again, running at the mouth with assumptions and hatred of anyone heterosexual. Only gay males villify transsexuals in this manner. Their reverse bigotry is their hallmark.
Firstly you not ANY kind of woman. You are by self definition a she-male which pretty much indicates that you look like the female of the species but are in fact proud to be male. Secondly, your posts center around *passing*. Women’s do not. In fact, Susan, who I know in real life is a female in all aspects. Her brain sex is most definatly female and her presentation is nothing less than spectacular. On top of that she earns an enormous salary while working in a male dominated industry that would scare most tranny’s half to death. Now, youth has its privledge, and for young boys being effeminate looking is one of them. I know because I started transition at 27 years old while your parents were your age. This was long before the term transgender was coinded so by that very definition I am not and never have been transgendered. I have been post operative now for probably as long as you have lived on this earth. I am married to a wonderful man that raised 6 children with his previous marriage of 18 years. My husband knows my background as I told him the complete story when he proposed to me. He was not phased with it but he did research it on the internet and found all the trash and the GLBt/ transgender claptrap that google had to offer. He was both astounded and appalled that I had to endure such unsoliceted and damning association with the gays and lesbians that both hated and denounced my right to self determination.
You want rights? Earn them! Show by your words and your actions that you do not condemn those that came before you, that you do not disrespect those that made it possible for you to be who or what you are. If you think we didn’t make it possible for you then you are not transsexual as you say you are, your just another spoilt effeminate gay male with an axe to grind and a penis to protect.
Fact is, the “straight”, heterosexual world generally sees little distinction between those who are transsexual or transgender or gender different or intersex. They are all queer. This view from the “straight”, heterosexual world pretty much applies to those who are gay or lesbian. Like it or not, this is reality. We all share the same boat no matter what label is chosen. Debate about the definitions will change little in the eyes of many from the “straight”, heterosexual world.
It wasn’t always that way repunzel. Sadly, it has become that way with the transgender inclusion to the GLB, one that threatens to delegitimize all the pre and post operative transsexuals which is why the HBS movement was started, to diferentiate between medical imperitive and fetishtic need in the eyes of the general public. Unfortunatly that sounds like elitism but it is in fact protectionism for those of us that do not identify as transgender, despite the protestations of those in the GLBt to the contrary.
Oh yeah, Julia Seranno has already said something similar, “And when I call myself trans, it doesn’t necessarily signify that I ‘transgress the gender binary’, but that I straddle two identities–woman and transsexual–that most people insist are in opposition to each other.”
Hi Leah! 🙂 🙂
I’m thinking that you’re getting all of your information from a misreading of Joanne Meyerowitz’s “How Sex Changed,” yes?
As I’ve mentioned before right here in this very thread, at the very latest, the term “she-male” was coined in 1979 with the publication of Janice Raymond’s “The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male,” and in all likelihood it was in use, at least in some circles, years before that. lrn2etymology if you’re going to be lecturing me on words and their historical usage.
You suggest that you know from personal experience that young boys have the privilege of “looking effeminate” (or did you mean “feminine?”) because you transitioned at 27, but– and I hate to break this to you– twenty-seven year-olds are *not* “young boys.”
My posts have revolved around “passing,” as much as I hate the phrase, because, at your and Susan’s age, and because you’re both late-transitioning trans women, being attractive really isn’t much of an issue any longer 🙁
You asked me how well I pass in bed– in fact, I look like a woman with a cock in bed. What a fun question. And can you honestly– *honestly*, mind you– say that you really look like a woman when you’re naked, and not like a guy who’s had some surgery and hormone replacement therapy?
You wrote: “Thereâ€™s that ego again, running at the mouth with assumptions and hatred of anyone heterosexual.”
Because we all know that HETEROPHOBIA IS A HUGE SOCIAL PROBLEM OMG
I suggest a healthy dose of dying in a fire for you ^_^
You also wrote: “Post Op transsexuals not only donâ€™t have to *worry about* trans rights, but donâ€™t need or want them because they already have the same rights as genetic women in mainstream.”
Post op transsexuals do have to *worry about* trans rights, because you’re going to need them when someone finds out that you’re trans. Which will happen, and probably already has– I’m thinking that you’re just fooling yourself into thinking it hasn’t.
And you said: “You want rights? Earn them! Show by your words and your actions that you do not condemn those that came before you, that you do not disrespect those that made it possible for you to be who or what you are. If you think we didnâ€™t make it possible for you then you are not transsexual as you say you are, your just another spoilt effeminate gay male with an axe to grind and a penis to protect.”
No one should have to “earn” their rights, they should be granted to them by default, and from the sound of you, you’re not much responsible for the fight to get them– what with your extreme self-loathing and insistence that trans people live quiet, closeted lives and forget that other trans people exist once you’ve got yours.
And I do respect “those that came before [me]” if they deserve respect.
Wow. Just wow. “We’re more transer than you, nyah nyah nyah. We’re women and you’re just a fag in a dress, nyah nyah nyah”.
I thought transitioning meant you got to have a cunt, not be a cunt.
If all you HBS people are so against being part of the greater transgender community then what’s keeping you from simply staying out of it? No one is telling you you have to live with a penis, wear tranny pride gear, etc. Even if you were to associate with transgender types, no one is going to tell you you have to be anything other than a straight woman. I don’t see where the conflict is, unless you’re trying to distinguish yourself from a community you feel lowers you somehow.
I mean for that matter, is there anything wrong with being a man in a dress? I don’t consider non-op transsexuals “men in dresses,” but is a man in a dress any less worthwhile than a man in pants?
WTF, my posts are not appearing at all…
Lets try this again:
How dare you question Megan’s gender?
She is a woman. She defines who she is–not you.
Transsexuals were just fine until GLB/queer folks pulled us into their perversions?
Who is revising history here?
There are “true transsexuals” out there who are fine with being in GLB/queer communities. Sometimes we came from those communities. Sometimes we belong there because we are GLB. Sometimes it is because we find acceptance there.
This society sees trans* (including transsexual folks) and queer folks as the same thing; failing to fulfill their roles as male/females in the “proper” way (transitioning at all is a failure in society’s eyes btw).
I am what could be considered a “true transsexual” and would be a shoe-in for a HBS diagnosis. I don’t want one because of how I see HBS proponents treating/speaking of crossdressers, genderqueers, transsexuals who don’t fit their narrow standards, queer folks, etc.
Some of us also see value in connecting with those trans* people who are not transsexual. We do share some feelings and experiences afterall–though we often have very different feelings/experiences as well.
Some of us also see value in connecting politically with those who society sees as the same. Strength in numbers and all that.
Many of us are not blind to how society sees us and many of us work to get over our bigotry and privilege.
Have you ever heard of reclaiming words? Many of us choose to do so with words like queer or even shemale.
Indeed there are huge difference within the gender community, but that does not mean the rest of the world including the gay and lesbian community understands the difference between those who do part time target gender and those who seek to make their target gender permanent by medical inventions. The needs are indeed different, but the fact remains, there are many post transition and post-op transgender and intersex individuals that will never pass as their chosen gender. Then there are those who are non-op but live 24/7 as their target gender. Other groups would be those who do their target gender part time or some times , many post transition and post-op trans folks pass a stage in their journey where they do this to figure out who they really are and where they need to be in life. There are the “butch” lesbians women and effeminite gay men. They are just as affected by gender based discrimination. upon meeting another individual, we tend to gender them in order to figure out how we should interact with them, when there is dissonance in an individuals perceived gender, there could be problems. This is the area of awareness that a good number of gay and lesbian folks don’t understand. None of us should be subject to discrimination based on perception of gender or sexual orientation. Until the gay and lesbian community gains a further understanding of how their perceived gender affects their lives, these issues will continue to divide the queer community and wast the communities limited political resources on disputes and fights within.
It is also quite possible that the individuals in political power are pitting gay and lesbian communities against the transsexual / gender different / intersex communities to waste their efforts and limited resources to the benefit of those who want to keep the “queer” community oppressed and ghettoized.
How one looks has absolutely nothing to do with this issue…none. But, as YOU keep bringing up passing…
“My posts have revolved around â€œpassing,â€ as much as I hate the phrase, because, at your and Susanâ€™s age, and because youâ€™re both late-transitioning trans women, being attractive really isnâ€™t much of an issue any longer :(”
Isn’t much of an issue, you say? For once, you are right and, in fact, it never was. By the way, you should have transitioned even younger than you did, maybe it would have helped with that deep voice and presentation YOU have on your YouTube movies. ROFL
Now, when you grow up, you can send me a photo of you when you are 56.
There is no way I will change you rather juvenile opinion, Megan…you’re a shemale, you are young, and you know everything. On the other hand, you have a better chance at one day being able to pass than you ever do of changing mine.
That’s right, drakyn, Megan defines herself…That’s fine with me. She can call herself a turnip if she likes, doesn’t mean anyone else on the planet is gonna believe it.
Greta, there is huge number of postop transsexuals who want nothing to do with the gender debate whatsoever. The HRC, in their “talking points” memo, leaked to the transadvocates says that verbatim. This fact is not an issue or in dispute…certainly the HRC recognizes that. The issue is not that WE are a part of the transgender construct or are trying to separate from it; we were never a part of it in the first place. It is a matter of the transgender construct counting us as part of something we want nothing to do with…both politically and socially. For years and years, we, the majority I just spoke of, went about our lives, apolitically for the most part. Many of us have woken up to find that we are included in a group we don’t feel we belong to. Read the post above…”…you are the same as we are…” yada, yada, yada. NO, we are not. We don’t feel that way at all. THAT is the issue, Greta.
hardvice…you give a perfect example. We were never “trans”…we are “trans” nothing. The issue is not that someone is more trans than another, and using that argument is a lot like a fundamentalist Christian playing the “homosexal sodomite” card when discussing gay rights. The issue is not better than, but different from. And, of course that argument doesn’t sail with the transgender who can’t identify with innately feeling from birth that they were born into the wrong body and nothing less than hell and high water will stop them from doing any and every thing possible…as limited as it may be…to correct that.
Megan is a woman; she doesn’t just call herself one. She is just as much of a woman as my mother or Angelina Jolie are.
Her voice is low–so what? Plenty of cissexual women have low voices, some even lower than hers. She’ll just sing alto instead of soprano.
And you know, you can call yourself a nice person if you like, but that doesn’t mean other people will believe you. ^.^
Susan, it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to distinguish yourself from the transgender/transsexual community, but you also want to prevent the transgender/transsexual community from gaining rights. Whatever you consider yourself, obviously there are lots of us who do not fit your definition of HBS. What do you recommend we do? We aren’t going to dissapear.
I also transitioned in my teens. I have not had surgery, and I have a wonderful fiance who is definitely not a gay male. What do you have to say to that?
Leah, Susan, being uninformed idiots, you are dangerous idiots.
– You would do well to actually consider what the real scientific literature has to say on the subject – for one, nonops were always considered transsexuals in all relevant studies. Even from the Transsexual Question onwards. You are in fact the revisionists on that issue. Hello, wake up, the first major study about transsexualism came in the book that coined the term transvestite.
– As someone who was called a gay male in denial a couple of times, I wonder how the question of letting people label themselves failed to enter your thick skull, Susan – but yeah, keep pimping your blog so people understand the hypocrisy a little bit more.
– And if you think intersex who transition to their preferred gender as adults have it any better, or that, to the world, they’re, you’re well past delusional. But yeah, keep to your dreamworld where transsexuals had full rights and total stealth as women everywhere in the pre-IT world, and where the common moron who sees an intersex individual in transition doesn’t think “tranny”. It’s not for nothing that Benjamin mentions trying to protect his patients with “certificates of explanation”. You would do well to read the last section of chapter 4 of the TS Phenomena.
– Also, you should probably realize the hypocrisy of labelling others as deviants – some people survive well into their senior years, even impose themselves the complete opposite end of the gender binary, to remain in denial, so I guess putting off transitioning to be entirely, absolutely normal in your assigned birth sex is possible. Hence, transition is not only something a minute minority of the world does or needs, it’s also something that is not an absolute necessity for a transsexual to survive. Oh, sure it doesn’t necessarily lead to happy lives, but that’s not something the extrans care for, really. Deviancy is the actual problem.
– Finally, let’s just gloss over the point that you have no idea what “rights” means. Frankly, others are probably much better at explaining that point – but I suspect you might not be articulate enough to understand the subtle difference between rights and privileges in the end, so it feels like a bit of a waste.
I say, good for you, Greta…congratulations.
Late transitioning at 27 ?
Reminds me of the hippie movement of my era when we said “Never trust anyone over 35”!
Nowadays of course the hippies are all but gone. They joined the establishment, got married and raised families, became bankers and lawyers, doctors and nurses, live in gated golfing communities. Once in a while they drag out the old photo albums and look back in astonishment at their woodstock photo’s and wonder how they could have been so naive to believe they could change the world.
You kids have fun trying too. Sooner or later the fad will be over for you as all fads do, a new generation will displace you and you will be forced to join the establishment or be branded uncool.
The transsexuals were here before me, they were here before you and they will be here after you. They have no choice because they are not following a fad, they are following an inate need within them to fulfill a destiny not granted them at birth. I know you have no concept of this and quite frankly that does not surprise me.
As for me, this blog is not worth my time. As the old saying goes, “Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig”. In this case the pig is quite plainly annoyed. The testosterone level in this room would make a San Francisco bathhouse seem like a geisha’s bedroom.
But then… what else would you expect from a blog that defines itself as, “FREE OF AN AGENDA..EXCEPT THAT GAY ONE”
Actually, drakyn, I never called myself a nice person, though I think most would say I am. For that matter, I’m sure Megan is a decent person herself. I don’t care one way or the other about Megan’s voice. I tend to get a bit testy when approached by attitude. Passing is not part of this debate to me, but it appeared to be a VERY big deal to Megan and after a while, the insults leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Which brings me to Danae. If you think that I am a revisionist, then knock yourself out…keep telling yourself that and you will feel better. I have never called anyone in the GLBT a deviant. Now, are you really wondering why you were called a “gay male in denial”? The transgender construct, one that socially and politically you seem to support entirely, is wholly associated with the gay rights movement. Everywhere you turn, in every media, if transgender is mentioned, GLBT is mentioned…and GLB is whole homosexual in its agenda. So, are you really wondering why? Really, are you? The fact is that your gender has been hijacked by the construct that you support. Good luck on that.
I was not called a gay male on denial, you were, as you mention on your blog. My syntax could have been better, I guess.
I don’t have to keep telling me that either – I just read the actual literature. It’s much more enlightening.
Susan, you called her a man.
She attacked your (and other HBS folks’) ideas and privileges and bigotry. You attacked her gender identity. Yeah, she then brought up how hard it can be for trans*women who transition later in life to pass as cissexual. But not until YOU called her a man.
You are trying to revise history, the history of this exchange, here and now and won’t have it.
I see nothing wrong with being associated with queer folks; it’s not our fault some stupid bigots can’t tell that “associated” doesn’t mean “the same as”.
For whatever reason, some trans folks early in their transition feel the need to educate others regarding gender identity as their “coming out” process. As the years pass and events like changes in hair, the physical and emotional effects of hormones settle, gender related surgeries and their recovery process pass, legal aspects of sex change such as name change, sex designator change and all the other life events related to the transition process get done, their lives settle. Some move on away from the gender community and disappear into the fabric of their lives and society never to be heard from again. Others stay in the gender community for whatever reason. Still others become activists who try to make the world a better place for those who are born gender different. Being a gender advocate or activist is not for everyone and those early in their transition process are not always the best to representatives of the gender community. It takes years to mature and grow into oneâ€™s target gender and gain an understanding of what the gender community must deal with in their daily lives. How does a trans woman like Susan relate to a young trans women who has been tossed out of her home after coming out to her parents, with no support from her parents, homeless and is forced to live on the streets while trying to feed herself by selling her body?
As for individuals like Susan who has spent much of their lives in the public light and political world, they are a product of this environment. Gender issues aside, this is part of Susan and always will be. In order for any political and public figure to survive they need to be adapted to that environment, otherwise they will perish. Itâ€™s basically political Darwinism.
drakyn…are you drunk? How you said this exchange transpired is exactly how I said it did. She came at me with attitude right from the start. What am I trying to revise. I know that transgenders deal in spectrums. But virtually everyone else doesn’t. Gender expression is not gender, it is gender expression. If someone says they are shemale, is proud of the fact that they have a penis, says they do not want GRS…then they are male to me.
I agree with you, draykyn, there is nothing wrong with queer folks. I have gay friends, as well as friends who are crossdressers. Again, AGAIN, that is not the issue. But that is the response one gets if they lobby a different point of view. Well, it is “your” fault by bying into the transgender construct as a part of the GLBT. And, the transgender advocates are in an uproar at the moment trying to decide if they should support separating from it. Are they bigots? Are they internalized/externalized/whatever internalized homophobic? Are they? Because postop transsexuals are sick of being called “just like we are”, by other gender variants, have never, are not, and will never be a part of the transgender construct that the GLBT wants to drag us into, however, we are called transphobic. Is there a difference? I don’t care what I’m called. The issue is, we object to that and for the past 30 years have sat by and not voiced that objection. All we hear is “you just think you’re better than me”…or the old “who’s more trans than who” argument…and that’s bull dung…it’s like trying to reason with a child. The transgender construct, absolutely evident in this series of blogs expounds that…”I am not like you…and YOU are not like her…and SHE is not like her…and I am not like him…but we are all trans.” Most all of the “transgendered” seem to agree on that point. You all seem to agree that you are different, but all the same…there is a common bond between the transgendered. Well, we are not part of that group. The transgendered say that we look down on them. That is not true. You are who you are. But WE are not like you, on any level…never have been, nor will we ever be.
Greta…I apologize, I misunderstood your post, and yes, that conversation in my blog took place…and that is part of the issue.
Repunzel…that is a quite astute observance. I might only add one clarification. Up until a month or so ago, I was exactly like most post op transsexuals. I did my time, had my surgery, and then simply disappeared. I don’t see myself as a political activists. For sure, you will never see me on Larry King Live…or on any media. I am simply a blogger who is expressing my opinion. I don’t belong to any organization nor ever will. And though I don’t mind relating certain parts of my life and background, I guard my private life as though it were mounds of diamonds.
Suppose you went away on vacation, Repunzel…say a twenty five year vacation. And when you came back, you found out that a whole movement of whom you have never been associated with decided that you belonged in their group…and no matter what you said, everywhere you looked, you saw them laying claim to who you are. Would you be happy about that? And when you spoke up to let this group of people know that you weren’t a part of them, they told you not only that you WERE a part of them, but that by denying you were a part of them was saying you were better than them…and a bigot and phobic because you thought otherwise.
That is exactly how it is to many of us, and it is a concept the transgender, particularly the young, just coming out transgender, just cannot grasp.
“Late transitioning at 27?”
That’s what I said. Twenty-seven isn’t exactly early.
“Reminds me of the hippie movement of my era when we said â€œNever trust anyone over 35â€³!
Nowadays of course the hippies are all but gone. They joined the establishment, got married and raised families, became bankers and lawyers, doctors and nurses, live in gated golfing communities. Once in a while they drag out the old photo albums and look back in astonishment at their woodstock photoâ€™s and wonder how they could have been so naive to believe they could change the world.
You kids have fun trying too. Sooner or later the fad will be over for you as all fads do, a new generation will displace you and you will be forced to join the establishment or be branded uncool.”
Omg look at all the unexamined white, middle/upper-class privilege at work!
“But thenâ€¦ what else would you expect from a blog that defines itself as, â€œFREE OF AN AGENDA..EXCEPT THAT GAY ONEâ€”
Another common symptom of HBS: Homophobia.
lol! What did you think you were going to prove by posting those pictures?
You look like Felicity Huffman in TransAmerica with fifteen extra years, a few extra inches of chin, waaaay too much time in the sun, and a disappointing recovery following faceful of speeding truck.
This is what I look like (picture from two weeks ago):
And here’s that youtube video Susan was referring to, with my obvs manly voice:
You know you’re just kidding yourself if you think you’re going to convince me that I don’t “pass.”
But hey, keep trying to convince yourself that my “deep voice” and horrible YouTube “presentation” (lol all of my vids have been made late at night when I was half asleep and had nothing better to do) makes you more a woman than I am.
“Everywhere you turn, in every media, if transgender is mentioned, GLBT is mentionedâ€¦and GLB is whole homosexual in its agenda.”
Oh look more HBS homophobia.
Omg you’re so pretty! â™¥
Thanks Megan ♥
This conversation has become tldr. Luckily, as long as HBS transsexuals are content to stay stealth, out of the public eye, and deep in denial, it’s not like they’re going to actually succeed in silencing the entirity of the trans community (as their goal seems to be).
She attacked the ideas and the privilege shown by many HBS folks, especially on that blog you linked to. She didn’t bring up passing until you called her a man.
And I am not drunk. I detest drunkenness and even when I drink I do not get drunk.
Gender expression is masculinity/femininity. Something Megan never mentioned.
Gender identity is what you identify as.
I think, upon reading multiple accounts from different trans* and cis* folks, that not everyone has a neural map of their body and that the strength/detail/completeness of this neural map also varies.
Therefore, it isn’t surprising that there is variation even among transsexuals on what medical procedures are necessary.
Moving on to speak of a theoretical person, as I do not wish to make assumptions about Megan’s identity, it makes perfect sense that if a trans*woman’s neural map is not that strong/detailed/complete in the area of her genitals she would feel little need to have GRS. If her genitals happen to be a place where her body dissonance is not present or can be dealt with without surgery, then good for her; I wish I were so lucky.
Women with penises have unique experiences; why shouldn’t she be proud of them? And the penis is most certainly a nifty organ; if it doesn’t cause a person undue distress, why shouldn’t they be happy they have one?
And did you ask why Megan identifies as a shemale? Perhaps if you had asked instead of calling her a man she would have answered.
(btw, where the fuck do you get gay man out of shemale? shemale has constantly been used as a derogatory word for trans*women and for a certain type of porn)
Ahh, you have gay friends. Very nice, this totally proves that you cannot say or believe any heterosexist things evaar.
Trans* activists are thinking of separating themselves fro GLB because we have been constantly betrayed and left behind.
The things trans* activists are working for and desire would benefit HBS folks too. Laws that would keep you from getting arrested if you cannot or have not yet changed your birth certificate and get questioned in the bathroom, to keep you from getting fired should you get outed or when you start transitioning, diversity training so if you get outed or when you are first transitioning/coming out you have less bigotry to face, etc.
Yeah you, Susan, may have changed your papers and had surgery and everything. What about those HBS men and women who are just starting to transition or who haven’t started yet? Wheat about the ones that haven’t been born? How are they going to deal with the REAL ID act, no-match letters, and sex markers on birth certificates that are illegal to change?
And I AM transsexual. I am transgender only when you define transgender as all those whose subconscious sex do not match their body/assigned-sex or as a political grouping.
We do have common feelings/experiences. Just like many HBS men, butch women are told off for being too masculine. Many crossdressing males and/or drag queens, just like many HBS women, must learn to do make-up and things in secret and risk a great deal if they are discovered. Genderqueer folks, just like transsexuals, must struggle against a society that tells them their identity and their gender/sex, are defined merely by what they have between their legs.
Yes, there are differences.
That doesn’t mean that there are no similarities or that those similarities are worthless or don’t matter.
Also for what it’s worth, I know multiple non-trans women who’d love to have a penis. I guess that makes them shemales, too…
Same here Greta, I also have several cis*male friends who would love to have vaginas and many cis*friends who think it would be awesome to switch between (aka, Ranma 1/2). I’m sure that, some of them are probably joking and some just haven’t examined things fully… but some really don’t have that strong a connection to their genitals and some don’t have that strong a connection to their gender.
Biological and social diversity are wonderful things.
The problem with “Enough Non-Sense” is that the author is more enamored of her axe to grind than with actual facts. I mean, the above link is to her attempted critique of one of my posts. She mocks my post for the title and tags, and doesn’t even bother to read it.
I mean, if she did, she’d know that the title was a play on the article that I was fisking – Sex, Lies, and Feminism, or even what my post was about. But, in a cheap attempt to score points and act snarky, she comes off looking really dumb.
It’s almost exactly like attacking Megan for calling herself “That Fucking Shemale” without even looking around her LJ enough to see where Megan got that title (someone referred to her as “that fucking shemale,” if I recall correctly), so she’s claiming an insult used against her.
Anyway, yeah, Susan Stanton – she doesn’t need to be talking this kind of crap in public. She’s wrong and expressing all kinds of internalized transphobia. That’s of course no reason to attack her with transphobic comments. She said something stupid, but that doesn’t delegitimize her personhood or rights, nor does it excuse describing her in ways that are, frankly, transphobic and transmisogynistic.
Susan, go read yourself some Julia Serano and others. Educate yourself on modern trans issues. You come across as a bit clueless and way behind the times – never mind your need to attack anyone who disagrees with you.
Megan, Drakyn, Greta, you’re great. 🙂
Curse you, unclosed italic tags!
What, she snarked you Lisa? I skimmed a few of her posts, but I must have missed that one.
She missed a lot by not reading your posts.
Even if you don’t agree with someone, it’s best to at least skim the contents. And if you want to write in any depth or certainty you need to read through carefully.
I liked your photo, Megan. Your skin would be the envy of any supermodel, skin tone is so even…not a pore, nor a line, nor hardly even a feature, though I did make out your glasses and eyes, and I think I spotted your nose and lips…the nose for sure. You don’t have to sell me on anything…if you are convinced you pass, that is the only thing that is important. I know it is all about the “dress up and look pretty to you”, much of your posts revolve around that.
Lisa, I don’t give a damn about “trans” issues, or “trans” anything…with the exception of the “trans” construct including postoperative transsexuals as part their agenda. And, actually, I wasn’t mocking your post, but your whole site. It’s chocked full of more peudointellectual bat dung than the average excuse haven for sure.
why are you so focused on tiny things? there is nothing masculine about Megan’s nose, eyes, lips, etc. Hell’s bells, I’ve seen plenty of cissexual women with far more “masculine” features than her.
Have you read either Lisa or Megan’s blogs? Megan’s is full of snarking stupid bigots and ranting about oppression (and not just cissexism, racism and classism are most certainly there as well).
Lisa did a wonderful job linking to several important issues including disability-rights, young WOC empowerment, and several updates on the HRC/ENDA debacle.
She started off with a wonderful set of posts, including the one you linked, taking apart the anti-trans* arguments of some radical feminists.
“I know it is all about the â€œdress up and look pretty to youâ€, much of your posts revolve around that.”
Link me to one.
The comments in this blog have me sputtering with anger and rage. Are you serious? Transgenders are MEN!? WTF?! That just… That’s precisely what people tell you “OMG we’re HBS/Transsexuals” dingbats. It’s the same fucking story. You’re trying to beat off their oppression by oppressing the rest of us and invalidating our identities? I… guh… *sputter*
The simple fact is that the clear distinction that you make between transgenders and transsexuals is as much a fucking fantasy as the clear distinction between women and men. Nature does not, cannot, and will not act in discrete categories like this. Everything is laid out in spectrums and degrees. Nothing is definite!
I’ve experienced a sense of not being a boy all my life. I’ve experienced that sense of being freaked out that I was expected to be one as a child. I struggled with secondary sex characteristics. So did you. So because I choose not to get SRS, I’m a “fake tranny” and invalid and a man and not deserving of the rights that you fight for? Grrr, growl, angst.
And the person that posted that “Post Op transsexuals not only donâ€™t have to *worry about* trans rights, but donâ€™t need or want them because they already have the same rights as genetic women in mainstream.” Are you fucking kidding me? Unless you are very very lucky to have a perfect body type, a great work history, been born in a state that lets you change your birth certificate, and a few other things, you’re always going to be in a group that is subject to oppression and hatred. You’re in it with us all. It doesn’t matter how much you modify your body, how passable you are, any of that. You’ll always have a past where the world assigned male to you, and that means that you’re susceptible to oppression.
To put it simply… you folks are wrong. Your ideology is offensive and oppressive and does nothing to further your own cause. And Susan Stanton seems to be right there with you folks, if these statements of hers wind up being true.
Susan, I have been part of the gender community for a long time now. Itâ€™s been nearly 10 years now since my transition and, â€œbeen there, done that.â€ The difference is, I never left and always kept in touch with many within the gender community. The degree of separation among the gender community is usually not more than one individual. Many of us who have been around this long know each other in some way. Fact is, I do believe that when one is born gender different, one dies as gender different. All those things that happen during the process of transition, medical, legal, social and etc are there to help make adjustments towards a better and more compatible life. These are not a cure for being born gender different and I know there are many in the gender community that does not agree with me on this and itâ€™s fine, I respect that. Basically, it comes down to self-acceptance of who you really are and doing what is required to make lifework for you and contribute in good ways to the human family. This does not mean surgery, other medical intervention, legal changes, social changes and other changes are needed for everyone in the gender community, it is a very individual life journey and the interventions/changes needed can easily vary over time. Regardless of where anyone is on the gender spectrum, each should be treated with respect and the same legal rights as any other individual living in this society. Itâ€™s basic to all members of any society.
I have trans friends who are married and their hubbies donâ€™t know their history (living in the other closet), I have friends who are long time activist in the gender community and are very public. Personally, I have spoken on many panel discussions at schools and organizations to educate others on the topic of gender, but I will not take a greater public visibility, as Iâ€™m well aware of the toll it takes on my personal life. I have also mentored many trans women early in their transition and helped them grow into their individual womanhood. There have been a number of them who felt the need to be very public and do the education thing, I tell them, NO! Youâ€™re simply not ready; you donâ€™t have the maturity and enough understanding of the gender community and the various individuals that are involved. Those who do tend to say stuff or put their foot in mouth only to regret what they did later in their life. Then there are those who continue for what every reason and become dissed and alienated by the gender community and society as a whole and live a rather lonely life of illusion. As they progress with their own transition, they begin to understand this. Some do move on and become active within the gender community and others move on with their lives and are no longer part of the gender community.
Fact is, most who transition later in life pass a â€œsecond pubertyâ€ but donâ€™t always appreciate what happens during this time and it is easy to make serious public mistakes that can have long term effects on them selves and the gender community during this period. It is different for trans youth who transition early in life, say 10 years old. They usually donâ€™t have this â€œsecond pubertyâ€ and settle into a rather typical teen life, but their gender issues are never completely gone either. They have a different set of problems to deal with than those who transition later in life. I do believe in time, those who transition later in life will become a rarity and those who transition early in life will be typical. This is part of how the gender community is changing since it began many years ago. And yes, trans youth understand the gender thing quite well. Spend some time with them and the ones with supportive parents and compare this group to trans youth who are selling themselves on the street to put food in their mouth while trying to stay warm at night.
All Iâ€™m saying is individuals like Susan Stanton need to realize when they are put into a very public position, that she must have the maturity, experience and empathy for the whole of the gender community before speaking and realize the media and political forces can take advantage of this situation resulting in long term problems for the individual (Susan Stanton) and the gender community.
And my screen name is spelled Rupunzel, not Repunzelâ€¦..
â€ Suppose you went away on vacation, Repunzelâ€¦say a twenty five year vacation. And when you came back, you found out that a whole movement of whom you have never been associated with decided that you belonged in their groupâ€¦and no matter what you said, everywhere you looked, you saw them laying claim to who you are. Would you be happy about that? And when you spoke up to let this group of people know that you werenâ€™t a part of them, they told you not only that you WERE a part of them, but that by denying you were a part of them was saying you were better than themâ€¦and a bigot and phobic because you thought otherwise.
That is exactly how it is to many of us, and it is a concept the transgender, particularly the young, just coming out transgender, just cannot grasp.â€
Susan, The process of gender transition will not solve oneâ€™s other life problems. Those â€œpersonal problemsâ€ before dealing with gender issues will still be their waiting post process. And, the intrinsic personality of a given individual pretty much remains post process too.
I have seen many who â€œrace to the surgery tableâ€, get the surgery done only to find they are post op depressed and life not much different than before. Itâ€™s all about making a life, not just the physical and emotional changes from the process of transition.
There is a huge possibility of personal, spiritual and individual growth from the process of transition. This one of the gifts from being born gender different, learn from it before sharing what you might have learned before trying to share these experiences.
What a difficult dilemma and one that is both based on superficiality and profound morality. Basically what I read here is this: If you are passable you have the option of merging with heterosexual society. If you are not passable then society forces you to conform to a transgender identity. When something comes down to looks like that then one has to accept the unfairness of the situation and since a portion of the transgender are not passable it seems fair that trans people should be protected because even if you pass, there is no guarantee that you wont be outed for one reason or another
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