First Person

Why Do Masculine Gay Guys Look Down On Feminine Guys?

Screen Shot 2014-07-07 at 2.56.10 PMTo all gay men who make it a habit of looking down on/making fun of feminine gay men, let me first apologize. I didn’t realize it was so hard to be masculine and gay at the same time. People stare at you, call you names, and even threaten your life. All because you blend in with the rest of the society and are able to hide and even deny your sexuality when it conveniences you. That’s how it works, right?

All sarcasm aside, what I’m definitely not going to apologize for is your skewered belief that sparkly, flamboyant gay men make other “normal” gay men look bad. I believe our culture in general is doing a fine job of that, you know, the church fanatics that want us all put to death and political/religious leaders who have outlawed our lifestyle in other countries. I don’t apologize for that. In fact, I don’t even excuse it.

femmeAt a time when we’re supposed to be standing together as a community, we couldn’t be farther apart. Gay men don’t even accept each other, yet we want the same rights as everyone else. We should be united, but instead we’re worried about how someone else who’s going through the same struggles as any gay man might make us be perceived by others.

The ironic thing about it all is that you look down on feminine gay men because they’re actually stronger than you. Anyone who can get up and walk out of their house knowing they will be rejected by most of the people they run into has to be strong and thick-skinned. There’s no alternative. So, then, it makes sense that you would have a problem with someone who’s brave enough to be the person you don’t have the guts to be.

Feminine gay men don’t need to become more masculine to make you more comfortable, just like you don’t have to become completely straight just to make suspiciously-curious homophobes more comfortable. There’s no such thing as gender norms. That’s yet another hold-back element invented by our male-dominated culture.

Screen Shot 2014-07-07 at 4.56.47 PMBut I won’t spew out a full dissertation on this post. I’ll just make it simple:

I am not less of a person because my hair is long, my eyebrows are plucked, I regularly wear makeup and dress feminine, or even for the way I choose to talk and present myself.

I am not less of a person because, unlike you, I can easily be picked out in a crowd because of my flamboyant personality and behavior. Sorry, not all of us want to spend our lives trying desperately to fit in with the rest of the world. It’s boring.

I am not less of a person because you specified on your Grindr/Adam4Adam/OkCupid/Plenty of Fish profile that you only date “real” masculine men and will block sissy, fem boys.

I am not less of a person just like you are not less of a person. We’re both gay men. We’re in this together, all pettiness aside.

I am not part of the “faggot” imaginary subgroup designated for gay men who aren’t twinks with washboard abs and Miley Cyrus haircuts.

gay2-42550251504_xlargeI am not less of a person because, put simply, you and the rest of the world do not get to define who I am either way.

I am a person first, and if society wants to use how I, as an individual, act in order to define an entire group of people, that’s their problem, isn’t it?

This essay was originally published on Bold and Sugar.

Photo credit: Flickr

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  • Teeth

    Not into living stereotypes at either extreme, or for the racial group I belong to. It’s often a phase… an annoying one… that people find some membership in becoming carbons of their group’s identifiers. I’ve been there, I’ve done it.. and I was obnoxious about it. I’m over it, and I empathize but don’t want to hang out with non-authentic people. Ok, Girlfriend? lol

  • Lvng1tor

    Some guys are fem some are butch some are more relaxed some are more what ever….thinking you are better than someone else says more about that persons self esteem than their targets. @Teeth: has a point just be authentic and be you…I can only be me.

  • jar

    In response to the question- because they fear they are the same. The only way to squelch that fear is to remove the “effeminate” from sight.

  • E T

    @jar: A very wise comment! We hate in others what we hate in ourselves, I absolutely believe that. Another argument for pride!

  • Bee Gaga

    Preach sis! You hit the nail on the head, effeminate gay men are mirrors to the self-loathing “straight acting” gay men. They see in effeminate men, what they often times are not, unapologetically themselves, brave and authentic. So, they bash it, it’s that classic concept called projection. Not to mention they see effeminate gay men as holding them back from the mainstream acceptance. In recent years gay pride has been all about “look we’re just like you” and unfortunately the 6’2 dress wearing “yasssss” saying man on the side isn’t portraying that message of assimilation. Funny thing is, it was those very 6’2 dress wearing “yassss” saying gay men that got the movement to start and progress. The “straight acting” guys were going to work, fitting into society seamlessly, not being noticed and not wanting to be. So, in the words of Beyonce BOW DOWN, because these effeminate men are the reason why you can walk hand in hand with your gym rat boyfriend on the boulevard. Sidebar – I always found straight acting to be funny…if you’re straight acting, doesn’t that mean you’re acting straight? And acting straight would mean you’re acting like you sleep with the opposite sex, since that’s the only thing straight means. So basically, in a roundabout way, “straight-acting” is the nice/white way of saying I want a man on the DL.

  • Paco

    Thank you for this article! Every gay man has the right to be himself without pressure from other gay men to force them to put on an act for acceptance the same way the homophobes do. When you get down to the actual fact of the matter, the straight homophobes see no difference between the nelly flamboyant queen and the hyper-masculinized caricatures that call themselves straight acting. We are all the same to them the moment they find out we sleep with other men.

    Be yourself and allow others to do the same.

  • jwrappaport

    Great piece. I think masc4masc should read mask4mask.

  • Tackle

    Interesting article, and good discussion piece. But I think the writer is a bit confused. Femininity and flamboyance are two different things. These pictures show guys who are flamboyant. A guy can appear to be and look masculine, yet have feminine mannerisms. I’m more of the masculine type, but prefer guys who are slightly more to the feminine side. Bit not flamboyant. Which sometimes I feel it’s, ” look at me, I need attention! ” However I do not look down, laugh at or think I’m better than fem or flamboyant guys. And I
    don’t like the tone or insinuation that it’s a masculine vs fem thing. Or that all or even the majority of what’s considered masculine do indeed look down on fem guys. I think it’s more or a youth/immaturity mentality when it does happen. It’s also something that guys for the most part ( the ones who do this) as they mature, grow out of this behavior.

  • middleagespread

    Now substitute the word fat for effeminate. Unfortunately, everyone gets judged about something. Too short, too fat, too fem, too tall, too many tats, not enough tats, too pale, too dark, too smooth, too hairy.. list goes on and on.

  • surreal33

    Why? You ask? Fem boys (with a few exceptions) are the MOST self-loathing, self-destructive, mean, petty, shell of men to walk the earth. Fem boys entire life is based on surface details and being fabulous. The ultimate hypocrisy is to paint fem boys as victims. Go to any gay establishment and you will find a fem queen(s)
    are deciding who is thin enough, young enough,etc to get in. Open any gay magazine and some fem boy dictating what is sexy, what is cool, what is desirable. Fem boys resentment of masculine men far out ways any bias masculine men have towards fem boys. Ask yourself when was the last a masculine man publicly out another man?
    Yet everytime you turn around some fem queen is trying to out someone. Fem boys actions speak volumes as to why they viewed with such contempt.

  • Dxley

    If a masculine gay man doesn’t want anything to do a feminine one, it’s his choice. He also has sexual preferences, and you don’t have to change your feminine ways for him, but just don’t go near him either and everyone is happy!

  • AlexM

    The author of this piece seems to be bitter about being rejected by some masculine dude on a dating app. Truth is, people have preferences and if that happens to be masculine men, then deal with it. Seems to me like the insecure ones are the ones who write articles like this and post youtube videos talking about the same subject. Get over it already.

  • Zodinsbrother

    I don’t have any problem with fem men. And I know gay and straight ones.

    The problem is when that stereotype blocks out and obscures the full diversity of gay men.

    Lots of young gay men go through tremendous struggles because the images of gay men in the mainstream media are universally fem. And when they don’t recognise themselves in that they think “how can that be me”.

    So they end up living in the closet until they are 40 and ruining their own and others lives.

    So, I’m happy to celebrate the fem men and their visibility. Just give the rest a seat at the table too.

  • Ridpathos

    I can’t answer for everyone, but I know in my case, the main reason I don’t like many fem gay guys is because they seem to find a need to be insufferably obnoxious, loud, and sassy. If I met a woman who was like that, I wouldn’t want to be friends with them either.

    I always attempt to give all people a chance though. Another part of it is that we just don’t generally have the same interests. I like to do things like rock-climb, kayak, camping, I love attempting to grow intellectually. There are a few fem guys who are intellectual, and MIGHT geek out to the same things I do, but I find them very rare (they generally geek out over what I find to be shallow celebrity drama, reality TV, and whatever ‘some bitch’ they know did recently), and I don’t think I’ve ever met a really active fem guy.

  • ontheupandup

    @Ihadtosayit: “The Butch Factor” documentary was great! It really made me think and I strongly recommend it to every gay man. It was very honest!

    I echo the sentiments of others on there that you can really only be yourself. To whatever degree that’s “masculine,” “feminine,” (both cultural constructs that mean different things to everyone, really) or vacillating on a spectrum (<–which I think goes for most people of any identity or sexual orientation), it's kind of irrelevant; we're all just human.

  • teejay123

    Interesting article, and it’s definitely something that needs addressing, but I do think it’s oversimplified here.
    For one thing, people are never really one or the other, there are a lot of shades of ‘masc’ or ‘fem’. Most people are mostly one but rarely 100%. And there’s definitely a case to be made for pointing out that guys who are mostly masc expose their self-hatred of their own fem sides whenever they belittle someone who is overtly fem.
    But equally, there are guys who take advantage of stereotypes and flamboyance in lieu of an actual personality. It’s one thing to have the traits and tropes of traditionally feminine behaviour, but there are guys who take it to the next level and completely lose themselves in the worst excesses of that behaviour. Recent cases in point might be Laganja in Drag Race or Johnny Weir (rightly called out by Harvey Fierstein, who’s hardly the most masculine of gays).
    And then there are guys who lose themselves in straight, gr, manly stereotypes.

    I guess, bottom line, some guys are dicks, masc or fem.

  • Dxley

    Mit Romney is on Queerty. LOL!!!

  • DarkZephyr

    I don’t care really if a guy is masculine or feminine as long as he is a great guy. I have dated both. My last ex was very feminine and even wore makeup and I thought he was beautiful. My fiance is very masculine and rugged and butch I think he is beautiful. I consider myself “neutral”. People are surprised that I am gay when they find out, but I am not exactly uber butch. I am just me.

    @jwrappaport: Amen there. His Queerty name is horrendous. Someone whined and sobbed elsewhere in the comment section: “If a masculine gay man doesn’t want anything to do a feminine one, it’s his choice. He also has sexual preferences, and you don’t have to change your feminine ways for him, but just don’t go near him either and everyone is happy!”

    This isn’t about sexual preferences, this is about how we treat each other in daily life. Preferences have nothing to do with it EXCEPT for when a guy is RUDE about his preferences.

    @AlexM: Wrong, he is bitter about how feminine gay men are often treated by other gay men. We are all allowed to have our preferences. But why be rude and hurtful about expressing them?

  • Random

    @DarkZephyr: Yaaay!!! Well said!

    Can we not have these openly homophobic posters banned?

  • Dxley

    Darianna Jones, why can’t you people ban this redneck idiot in here? The “homosexualist” scumbag!

  • Dxley

    Darianna Jones, why can’t you people ban this
    redneck idiot in here? The “homosexualist”

  • Billy Budd

    I am butch and I feel attracted to butch guys. That doesn’t mean I discriminate Fems. I actually dated a fem once and HE was the top in the relationship. He had a huge dick and was exclusively a top.

  • fredparislondon

    I don t have any problem with fem gay guys and masculine “butch” gay guys as long as they are true to who they are, respectful and live their life without being too judgemental. Can t stand though those “butch ones “, that spend hours trimming their beard, choosing the right colour of socks to match their jock straps and than bitch about the fem or normal dudes.

  • Stevenw

    “Anyone who can get up and walk out of their house…has to be strong and thick-skinned.”

    I wish that were true. But personally I have not found that no ‘fem’ gay man is any thicker skinned than anyone else. If they were, I’d be first in the queue to ask them their secret!

    Also I wonder about the labels we use. Anyone know any woman who acts like a ‘feminine’ gay man? Because I must say, I don’t; I’m not sure feminine is the right word.

  • Stefano

    @fredparislondon : yep so true.

    • Random

      There is no one way to be a man, let alone a gay man, so we should behave how we like, without feeling as if our behaviour is going to be policed.

      ‘Masc’? ‘Femme’? Just be yourself guys and ditch the stereotypes!

  • BJ McFrisky

    Why? Simple: Because gay men are into MEN, not chicks with dicks. There are a lot of us out there who, for whatever reason, embrace only their feminine side, and it isn’t attractive.

  • jonjct

    I love feminine guys. I prefer a swishy guy to a straight-acting one. I don’t know why, it’s just what I’m attracted to. Fem guys are almost always bottoms, and that’s the other reason I love them. It’s so implausible for a fem to be a top, and before i get a thousand testimonials I KNOW it happens, I’ve seen it. Long live feminine young gay men.

  • samwise343

    @BJ McFrisky: BJ, I’m betting that whether you’re really masculine or feminine, both inside and out, you’re not attractive at all.

  • IvanPH

    As a non-effeminate gay man, i am offended that this article seems to suggest that we are not being true and authentic. I resent this misconception effeminate gay men have about masculine gay men. We are NOT hiding anything. We do not have long hair, wear feminine clothes & make-up, and talk with high-pitched voices simply because we do NOT want to. Some gay guys are just not comfortable with being and acting like that. We do not want to be objects of ridicule and amusement.

  • IvanPH

    Let’s just ignore the NARTH degenerate freak if the Queerty admin won’t ban him. The lowlife is probably just repeating and spewing lies about homosexuals that we have all read and heard before.

  • card28

    While I agree that feminine/flamboyant men should not be looked down upon or made fun of, this post entirely ignores the fact that not all people get along – simple as that. I don’t have many feminine gay friends because of the ones I’ve met, we simply don’t share the same interests. Just as we ask others to respect our lifestyle in general, you need to respect that not everyone is going to like everyone else, and that’s fine.

    Also, you say that masculine gay men look down on them for being “someone who’s brave enough to be the person you don’t have the guts to be.” Again, you’re assuming that all men naturally want to be feminine and flamboyant which is untrue. A major flaw in this article is how much it over-generalizes to the detriment of an entirely valid point: that people need to respect each other.

  • scze2000

    I’m out everyone knows im out i live in a small city. I also have masculine tendencies. I’m not very fem. Why does everyone assume that I hate myself or fem guys because I am attracted to masculine acting men. Quite frankly if I was attracted to long hair nail polish and bitchiness I would date a women and not have had to deal with years of disapproval and outright abuse. I was a victim of a gay bashing coming out of a gay bar once so I do know the hate that is out there. Saying that my personal like of a man that is masculine doesn’t mean that I hate myself or anyone else it means that’s my preference. Just like some people are attracted to blue eyes dark hair blonde hair. Preference just means I am attracted to a certain type I have dated a drag queen I prefer masculine men though. So please don’t stereo type me as someone who hates either myself or someone else because i choose to date certain people who i find attractive.

  • drivendervish

    First you accuse me of not having the guts to be who I really am and then you say there are No Gender Norms! So which is it because they are mutually exclusive. It is insulting that you think I have created a false personality or feign interest in more masculine pursuits in an attempt to fit in. If I am to accept that being gay for you means wearing makeup, dresses, and generally being as flamboyant as possible. Then you have to accept that I really do like football and fishing and couldn’t care less about fashion.

  • midnightsnack

    This is nothing but another rant-n-rave piece, most likely from a millennial feeling self-entitled. If one gets past the “victim” rhetoric, the writer urges unity amongst various subgroups under the Rainbow by accepting all for who they are. And yet, in the same breath, he/she chastises those who don’t care for L’Oreal as wanting “desperately to fit in with the rest of the world.” I, for one, beg to differ.

    The unfortunate bitterness with which this was penned mars the key point: respect and dignity for all. However, I must confess I remain utterly puzzled why there persists the confusion between being “feminine” and “flamboyant.” Exaggerated flaming in an attempt to mimic ill-conceived notions of femininity is simply tragic. If anything, flamboyance only feeds into stereotypes against which we are all fighting to eradicate.

  • Little-Kiwi

    MASCULINE men do NOT look down on perceived-“feminine” guys. Only faux-macho posturing insecure homosexual cowards do that. I’ve never met a truly masculine gay man who took issue with, or in any way denigrated, guys who might be seen as or deemed to be “effeminate”.

    Because confident masculine secure men don’t tend to take issue with those who are different.

    If you’re a gay man who “can’t stand those effeminate gay stereotypes”, what your’e really saying is “i don’t like those gay people that my crap anti-gay parents don’t like.” every time.
    check it out.

    “masculine” means nothing as it means something different to everyone.. for many insecure gay men they think you can’t be “obviously, visibly, identifiably gay and still be Masculine” – they’re wrong, and they reveal their insecurity and faux-macho posturing.

    you show me an “I can’t stand effeminate gays” gay man who can put his face and name to his comments and I’ll show you a unicorn.

    Midnightsnack – false. “we are all” not fighting to “eradicate stereotypes”, and even you know you’re full of s**t. If you believed a word that you’ve typed you’d be showing yourself, right now, as the “best example of a gay man” that you pretend to be.

    Those flamboyant flaming types? The types who come out, let’s be real here, YEARS before guys like you do? They exist. They have every right to. Power to them.

    if you think “your kind of gay” is “underrepresented” here’s why: it’s because guys like *you* continually give every cowardly excuse in the book to not stand up and represent yourselves.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @drivendervish: or you can do what i do: represent yourself every [email protected]IvanPH: then grow some balls and stop being such an insecure wimp.

    that’s what your post says. “we don’t WANT to be like those guys!” you mean those guys that don’t care what others think? those guys who don’t live each day in fear of “What the Straights Will Think?”

    Oh Queerty – here’s a fun game – can any of you “i’m not effeminate! i’m a masculine masc gay man!” dudes put a face to your claims? can you show us who you are? Drop off your youtube URL so we can see this incredible, secure, confident Gay Man that you claim to be.

    alas, it seems to be business as usual – anonymous invisible guys claiming that they’re “not represented” – if you want people to know about “gays like you”, you need to step your game up. or shut up.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @scze2000: alas, you prove yourself to be full of shit the moment you linked “feminine” to “bitchiness” – thus, you’re a liar. you link ‘feminine’ to ‘bitchiness’ – so it’s not great leap to link your self-styled (and unproven) “masculinity” to “insecure self-loathign and misogyny”

  • midnightsnack

    @Little-Kiwi: While I am guilty of arguing with the irrational here, let me know when you have cogent arguments without any vitriolic presuppositions about how proud or how out anyone who disagrees with you may be. Unless, of course, if your point is only to troll people for your “the Perez for the culturally austere” blog. To be sure, though, we all should realize by now that blaring one’s opinion in cyberspace doesn’t make your point assume any more legitimacy.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @midnightsnack: Until any of you guys can say your comments from a place of visibility, I stand by my statement.

    “flamboyant” means loud and attention-getting. basically, nearly every straight man at a live sports event is “flamboyant” – Bill O’Reilly is flamboyant. Glenn Beck is flamboyant. Jesse Ventura is flamboyant. Frat boys generally tend to be flamboyant. There is nothing in the word “flamboyant” that has anything to do with “effeminacy” – at all. Some guys perceived as “femme” are also decidedly NOT “flamboyant” .

    But I stand by it – whenever this topic comes up (which is often) the “i’m masc! I’m just not into fem flamer stereotypes”! brigade are also, always, the “anonymous internet commmenter making his comments from a place of invisibility” brigade.

    time and time again. today is no different.

    • Random

      @Black Pegasus: But if someone wants to be ‘flamboyant’ then that’s their choice. Why should we have to do anyone ‘favours’, which just smacks of trying to appease the heterosexual mainstream?

  • Black Pegasus

    It’s not about being feminine. It’s about defining “gay” as acting like a damn clown! I’m a masculine guy who prefers other masculine guys. But I have dated slightly less masculine guys and they were never the stereotypical queens we often think of. Being Fem does not mean you have to act like clown for attention. Flamboyance for the sake of flamboyance favors no one.

  • cformusic

    im masc and i LOVE a feminine me ladies!

  • Little-Kiwi

    @Random: Perhaps “Black Pegasus” can further show us what he specifically means by “masculine’ by showing us all, via the wonders of youtube, who he actually is.


    I mean, “masculine” and “feminine” mean something different to everyone – so, all you guys who complain about “clown effeminacy” – show yourselves. Let’s see you and your specific brand of Masculine Example. After all, you’re a confident secure masculine gay man, right? no reason to hide it.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @Black Pegasus: “Being Fem does not mean you have to act like clown for attention. Flamboyance for the sake of flamboyance favors no one.” neither does being “masc”, in a self-styled sense. clownish males adopting the trashy ignorant energy of Frat Bro Culture. it’s pathetic.

  • Rulito

    Because we live in a society in which masculinity is held in higher regard than femininity.

    • Random

      @Rulito: And that’s fucked up, isn’t it? We should be fighting against that sort of BS, rather than perpetuating it.

  • Little-Kiwi

    What we see is this: the insecure gay men who never grew the spines to stand up to misogynistic, sexist homophobes in their community (and, all too often, THEIR OWN FAMILY) end up being the “i can’t stand fems” gays. insecure, resentful homosexuals who hate the types of gay men that their shi**y families hated.

    you show me a gay man that hates “effeminate flamboyant gays” and i’ll show you a boy who never grew the balls to defy his trashy father.

  • SammySeattle

    My ex is fem, and the hottest man I’ve ever known.

  • jar

    @Zodinsbrother: Are you serious? It’s the fault of fem gay men that others are too cowardly to come out of the closet? And you’re pushing the ridiculous claim that “if” all he sees are effeminate gay men he will feel alienated? You have heard of this little invention called the internet. Your oh-so fragile gay man can find any and every flavor of gay man there. I find it a bit sad that you are so passive that you would give some other person the power to determine the course of your life.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @Zodinsbrother: give the rest a seat at the table?

    how about “those other guys” do what those “fems” do, which is STAND UP TO BE COUNTED.

  • DarkZephyr

    @Little-Kiwi: Loved each and every one of yiur posts and nearly applauded out loud. Thanks for those! I have seen pictures of Black Pegasus (I think, unless I’m confusing him with someone else who posts here) and he is a physically beautiful, athletic and handsome man who used ro link to his blog, but I’ve never seen him live or heard him speak. I’ve learned that a lot of gay men who declare themselves to be “masculine” according to heteronormative standards aren’t as “masculine” as they self perceive. It’s one of the reasons I refuse to identify as masculine myself.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @DarkZephyr: i don’t have any gay male friends who “identify as masculine” – does this mean that they would not be considered “masculine’ by society? not at all .it means they’re too fucking confident, secure and busy with life to worry about perceptions or concepts of “masculinity”.

    thanks, brother.

    i’ve said it before, i’ll say it again, no “masculine” men look down on “feminine” guys. the only men who knock, denigrate or distance themselves from perceive-“effeminate” guys are insecure wimps with daddy-issues who adopt faux macho-posturing to feel “like real men” – it’s essentially just DRAG.

  • Stenar

    I don’t dislike effeminate men, sometimes their mannerisms are cute. I just don’t have anything in common with men who want to wear dresses and heels, etc.

  • jar

    @Little-Kiwi: That was a compelling read. Your comments on this have been spot on.

  • Stenar

    Few of the “straight-acting” men I know are self-loathing and if they’d just get over themselves, they’d be effeminate. Some guys are just more masculine acting. Why are effeminate men hating on masculine men?

  • DarkZephyr

    @Little-Kiwi: I read the article you linked to in some of your posts. What a brilliant piece. When I was growing up I showed a very noticed lack of interest in girls and I made the dread choice of taking Drama. Oops. That screwed me over for a few years. I got labeled *f*g” and “queer” and was physically assaulted on a regular basis as a result. I was quite literally almost killed more than once by large homophobic groups of my peers. Someone sobbed and cried earlier in this comment section that “feminine” gay men are not stronger than self declared masculine men are. But a “fem” who is true to himself and doesn’t hide is VERY brave in MY book. There is a LOT more ridicule and violence directed at them than so called “masc” men. To me being true to yourself under such conditions is heroically brave. To deny that bravery, you have to be lying to yourself, or just very dumb.

  • DarkZephyr

    @Stenar: Not all feminine gay men wear dresses and heels. And nobody is “hating” on masculine men. You would know that if you paid attention. The issue here is how some gay men treat the so called feminine gay men.

  • DarkZephyr

    @JennyFromdabloc: We aren’t talking about preferences. We are talking about the way we treat each other. By the way, wtf do you mean by “men who act like men”?

  • realdeal2000

    This article is the reason that gay people don’t support each other. He states all his attributes that don’t make him a lesser person, but does a damn good job of making masculine gay men feel like lesser of a person. I’m not going to apologize for how I act as you should not have to. I’m not going to apologize for being attracted to who I am as you should not have to. Is this article written by a feminine gay man who is attracted to the same masculine gay man he is demeaning and been spurned? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I’m not a fan of the term “straight-acting” but there are feminine and masculine gay men and everthing in between. I am not lesser of a person because I play sports and enjoy eating messy wings and having a beer. ;). Can’t we all just get along. ;)

  • Bee Gaga

    @scze2000: You lose all credibility to whine about stereotyping you when you say ignorant things like “If I was into long hair, nail polish and bitchiness I’d just date a woman.” Apparently, the writer accurately described men, I mean boys, like you in this post

  • loren_1955

    I was married to a women for 27 years, now divorced, and really the last thing I want to be with is another women, be it a male or female. Myself, I am very comfortable having fully embraced my wholeness, masculine and feminine. You would find me equally comfortable changing brake pads on my truck, baking bread or putting up another batch of raspberry jam, bare chested splitting wood at my cabin or creating my latest quilt design. I do have to agree with a number of commenters, since coming out about 5 years ago, as I watch the gay community many that are feminine act like a bunch of petty whiny bitches, much worse than I had to deal with married to a women. That is not to criticize, just an observation. I don’t judge others for their choices and lives, I just choose who I am comfortable with and bitching is not my thing.

  • Bee Gaga

    @loren_1955: Oh what a coincidence many of the masculine ones act like self-loathing insecure wannabes, holding on to whatever straight privilege they can squeeze out while still getting their back blown out by men. Just an observation though.

  • realdeal2000

    @Little-Kiwi: I think you do too.

  • litper

    Because femmes hate homosexuality and worship heterosexuality. They’re basically pre-op trans women.

  • Teeth

    I think that this conversation would make more sense if we were clear if we mean “feminine gay guys” or “Bitchy queens”. Cuz…. there IS a difference.

  • BJ McFrisky

    @samwise343: “BJ, I’m betting that whether you’re really masculine or feminine, you’re not attractive at all . . . ”
    . . . says the LOTR nerd.
    You’re funny.

  • Paco

    @litper: Your comment and others like it are precisely what the essay was about. Thanks for stepping forward as an example of someone looking down upon fem men.

  • Paco

    @loren_1955: Bitching about others bitchiness only makes you appear to be bitchy. It’s ok sis, we are all entitled to an occasional bitchfest. I won’t hold it against you. It was just an observation.

  • jar

    @loren_1955: From your comment, it sounds like you have a lot of issues with women. It’s not your former wife’s fault that you stayed in the closet until five years ago. That is not to criticize.

  • litper

    @Paco: no such thing as fem “men”. They want to be women, fine. But they’re not the part of the gay community. They’re the opposite of what we’re fighting for.

  • Paco

    @litper: Your reply makes little sense to me. Effeminate men most certainly exist and make up a sizeable portion of the gay community. I am not sure what you think the gay community is fighting for, but I am quite sure it is not fighting for enforcement of heteronormative gender roles. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you meant by “They’re the opposite of what we’re fighting for.”

  • level75RDM

    Gay guys are unable to actually specify what it means to be masculine. You ask, all we seem to say is “Not like a woman”. Which begs the question, what does a woman act like? Then, the answer always amounts to “Not like a man.”

    Don’t ask a gay guy what masculinity actually encompasses. They will refuse to give you a straight answer…

    …so to speak.

  • justathought12

    I certainly can’t speak for everyone, and I wouldn’t excuse anyone who would disparage feminine gay men, but my own thoughts on this issue are a little complex. As a more masculine gay guy, I think the process of coming out and connecting with my gay identity has been complicated by the fact that the feminine gay man seems to be the face of gay men in the U.S. by and large. It has been frustrating at times to feel as though coming out might cause me to be perceived in a manner with which I simply don’t identify. I realize that there is a significant advantage that masculine guys have to feminine ones in that they can often escape bullying/bigotry more easily, and I acknowledge that this isn’t a small advantage. That being said, being masculine for me has come with it’s own challenge in feeling as though coming out will cause me to be perceived in a very specific way (due to the prominence of feminine gay men in the media etc.) that has little to do with who I actually am. I think our community will benefit enormously when gay people and straight people realize how diverse we are within our “group” and that this will continue to allow people from many walks of life to more easily identify more and more with gay people. Again, I’m not excusing hatred toward feminine gay guys, just trying to explain what may be a source of frustration for some.

  • Ben Dover

    @justathought12: “the feminine gay man seems to be the face of gay men in the U.S. by and large.”

    Really? I don’t see that at all. That wasn’t true even 20 years ago. Now, it’s fairly diverse – could always be more representative, of course, but yeah.

    I get the impression you’re very young & not quite out yet (that seems to be mostly your point), and I don’t mean to totally discount the influence of media. But you seem to working this stuff backwards a few different ways. You look at the media portrayals and apparently, you automatically think, “Eek – What are straights thinking about this??? (And by extension, about me???)”. And you’re so focused on that, you don’t even notice that the media portrayals are, in reality, all over the place, much more varied than your fear of them. (Or as you put it, your “frustration” with them.) Your sense of reality seems to be a little off.

  • riosig79

    I’m not reading other posts in order to focus solely on my views. Therefore, I’m totally unsure where my comment might fall on the continuum of views.

    The author states, “I am a person first, and if society wants to use how I, as an individual, act in order to define an entire group of people, that’s their problem, isn’t it?”

    The author is clearly articulating EXACTLY WHY SOCIETY REJECTS THE MERE NOTION OF THE GLBT COMMUNITY, acting in such a flamboyant and perverse manner is because you want to stir the hatred, the attention and be perceived as ‘normal’ as any narcissist would. Behavior described as flamboyant, etc. is, statistically speaking, an outlier in regards to the bell shaped curve of gay behaviors. It is exactly this behavior that prohibits acceptance and inclusion.

    As a gay man that divorced a woman after almost 30 years, it was the disgusting flamboyant freaks that I hated and they represented gay men and thus I fought my true self from emerging. Don’t you see, it’s ok to be gay just don’t act it and don’t be a priss and try to shove it in the face of others. Gay men that cannot act like men ruin the good life that real gay men should be afforded.

    The author knows that his narcissistic self demeans the entire gay community and yet turns it that he is the victim. He isn’t a victim. He’s part of a problem in the gay community where gays like him just want to draw attention to themselves as they smear the need for universal acceptance and inclusion. If I were king, people like the author would be ostracized and relegated to a low social acceptance.

  • Random

    @DarkZephyr: @JennyFromdabloc:

    How should a man act then? And who’s to say that that’s the ‘correct’ way to be a man? Why can’t being a man encompass all sorts of behavioural characteristics?

  • justathought12

    @Ben Dover

    You definitely make some good points. I didn’t mean to say that the community is not diverse, nor that it’s only represented by feminine men; there are definitely some hyper-masculine representations in certain settings. I think the diversity is much more obvious the more entrenched in the gay community people become.

    I’d argue however that in the mainstream media- that if you turn on your TV, the disproportionate representation of gay men is feminine (certainly not all, but most). I’d also argue that my point isn’t limited to what straight people think about gay men: Many of the replies to this article alone reflect what I’m talking about. The mere notion that gay men can be “straight-acting” implies that they simply haven’t yet embraced their own feminine reality, and I’d take issue with that premise. At it’s core, this is definitely the same issue any group can encounter with stereotypes. It doesn’t at all seem crazy, imperceptive, or naive to me to read the mainstream portrayal of gay men as predominantly feminine. The “frustration” I’m referring to is simply the reluctance of some men to come out, or feel connected to the community because in some ways, there is an identity ready to be assigned to them when they do (to a certain extent).

    I think you and I are definitely observing all of this from different vantage points: you perhaps more engaged in the gay community and able to more fully appreciate its diversity. But I don’t quite think that my perception of reality is off, haha,

  • level75RDM

    @riosig79: “Behavior described as flamboyant, etc. is, statistically speaking, an outlier in regards to the bell shaped curve of gay behaviors. It is exactly this behavior that prohibits acceptance and inclusion.”

    Don’t say something scientific without stating where you got that information. Citation or it didn’t happen.

    And even if it were true, what is inherently maladaptive if they act that way? They’re not killing anyone, are they? Or did they steal from someone? Did they treat somebody else poorly? At best, maybe they’re a little annoying when they go all out. But everybody has annoying qualities. I’d prefer to take it in stride when a few of my own friends act that way.

    There are worse things to be associated with. Like being a drug user, child recruiter, pedophile, or being militantly anti-religion. All of which are gay stereotypes, none of which have anything to do with gender expression. Yet no matter how much we may say otherwise, those stereotypes persist. Just as black people have to contend with the stereotype that they’re unmotivated, uneducated thugs. Or Asians will forever fail to culturally assimilate (and yes, people think all our men are feminine). Or that Latinos probably came here illegally to steal jobs from “real” Americans.

    You’re a minority. Get used to people making prejudgments about you, no matter no matter how unfounded.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @justathought12: then you need to be more visible. because your “complaint” is negated by this fact: your “complaint” has been made by “guys like you” for decades – and know what it’s not “changing”, because too many “guys like you” giver every excuse to not be visible, to not stand up to be counted, and to let people know “gays like me exist”


    I call your bluff. most representations of gay men in the media are NOT “feminine” – wanna try to prove me wrong? list the specific gay male characters you feel are “feminine” (and why)

    the problem is not that “there are too many feminine gays” – but that there are too many wimpy insecure cowardly gay men who “think they’re not feminine” and frankly don’t have the BALLS to come out.

    think about what your’e saying – we have people coming out, young people, in Russia. Uganda. where Coming Out comes with a possible jail sentence, or death.

    and here in north america, wannabe-macho gay men don’t want to come out because “people will think they’re into feminine things”? Do you have any idea how WIMPY that shit sounds?

    grow some balls. stop blaming others for your own cowardice, and COME OUT – be VISIBLE.

    yet again – we have guys saying “well, i’m a masculine gay man and it’s hard because so many people think gays are feminine” – take a lake from those “fems” you think you’re oh-so-different from: stop living every day looking over your shoulder worrying what The Straights are saying about you.

    forgive my angered tone – but this is such an obnoxious topic, that our community has been dealing with for decades -a nd the solution is so simple: all you “i’m not feminine” gays (whatever the hell that even means) need to stop giving excuses for being invisible cowards, and need to Come Out and represent themselves.

  • EGO

    Back in the ’60s when I came out, I saw some gay guys “ACTING” feminine and it confused me until I learned that I just needed to be myself and did not need to be flamboyant. There was one guy who was ACTING flamboyantly feminine who was having trouble getting promoted at his job at the bank. I recommended that he stop acting feminine and to be himself. Later, he was promoted.

    Straight guys do not wear their gender on their sleeve and gay guys should not wear their gender on their sleeve. You can be feminine or masculine but when you are flamboyant you are just being belligerent about being gay. If you are more respectful to others about being gay and don’t wear it on your sleeve, straights will treat you just fine.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @EGO: Spoken like a true coward with no balls, thanks for sharing you wimpy embarrassment. “if you behave the way your ignorant bullies demand, they’ll hate you less!”

    You are a complete and utter wimp.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @EGO: also – i call your bluff, on every single thing you said. you came out in the 1960’s, eh? i call your bluff. i don’t believe a word you wrote. you can prove me wrong by providing the URL to your own site or youtube page and show us all who you are, and the work you’ve been doing since the 1960s.

    i call your bluff.

  • DarkZephyr

    @Random: Why are you asking me this? I don’t recall saying anything about how a man SHOULD “act” other than I think we need to treat each other a lot better in this community.

    @justathought12: You do realize that you just basically made Little-Kiwi’s point, right? You confirmed everything that he asserts in his essay. (not the essay above, but tge one he has provided the link to). All you did was sugar coat it behind polite sounding words. You are afraid of being “perceived” as feminine. First off, how can anyone really “perceive” you that way if you are really “oh so masculine”? If you really are such a paragon of butchness then you have nothing to fear. When I come out to people, they don’t magically start seeing mannerisms in me that don’t exist. Usually I just get ignorant statements like “Wow! You don’t ACT gay!” It’s a statement that p*sses me off, really but I know they say it out of ignorance so I just politely explain a few things to them. Secondly, why do you care anyway? The fact that this is such a life stalling fear of yours leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You look down on feminine gay men, this is why you are afraid of being perceived as one. And yiur reasons are exactly what Kiwi says they are. You look down on feminine gay men and are too damned worried about what straight a**holes think. Point blank period.

  • bskeete

    I am a so called masculine gay guy who passes for straight.
    I am openly gay, but unassuming. I get flack from so called fem gays, who tell
    me I am not gay enough. WTF?????

  • DarkZephyr

    @bskeete: how very interesting. I’ve never in my life heard a feminine gay man say that to any other gay man EVER. Sounds like you have incredibly unique friends.

  • DarkZephyr

    @bskeete: how very interesting. I’ve never in my life heard of such a thing EVER. Sounds like you have incredibly unique friends.

  • justathought12

    @ Little-Kiwi : @ DarkZephyr :

    I was trying to provide a window into a challenge some people, including myself, experience. I tend to think trying to understand the perspectives of others is valuable. I don’t look down on feminine gays whatsoever, nor would I ever assert that this challenge is more significant than those faced by gay people in much less tolerant countries. I have enormous respect for people who come out in those countries. I also have respect for people who come out in this country.

    I had never read Little Kiwi’s article until now, but his thoughts in the article are really interesting to think about. I think my larger though, is that it’s less about wanting to be masculine or feminine or whatever the nature of the identity may be, and more about feeling frustrated by the assumptions people make about others. I’d rather make my own impression upon people (and I think I generally do- my earlier points are more about why some people, perhaps myself in the past, may feel hesitation). The same way gay people sometimes talk about how it would be nice if people didn’t automatically assume others were straight, unless presented with evidence to the contrary. Or perhaps it would be nice to not have people assume you’re gay for whatever reason. It’s nice to have people adopt conclusions about who you are and what you’re like because of what you say and do, rather than for stereotypical reasons.

    Little-Kiwi, I agree, coming out is a good solution to all of this. Also, sorry I didn’t prepare your list of characters. Buzzfeed might have one somewhere if you’re in need.

    For the record, I’m not paralyzed by fear, a “paragon of butchness”, cowardly, or looking down on anyone (or oh-so different for that matter). Your intensity is making me feel pretty good about my emotional control- maybe that makes me feminine :)

  • DarkZephyr

    @justathought12: Go ahead and congratulate yourself on your control but I can imagine that his “intensity” did not form in a vacuum, and perhaps your “emotional control” is due to the fact that you don’t have countless other gay men blaming the fact that you exist for the existence of homophobia rather than the homophobes themselves. And any intensity that you may perceive in my words comes from a passionate desire to see our community, our brotherhood stop cannibalizing itself and start treating itself with respect.

    What I don’t understand is why you or any self identified “masculine” gay man cares how straight people perceive you in this way. I can appreciate that you were trying to help us see where you are coming from but I feel that you simply stated what was already known, but with prettier sounding words. You can’t control the thoughts of homophobes, Justathought. You can only try to educate and inform them by being yourself. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t. When it doesn’t I figure we gotta borrow some advice from Jesus (I am agnostic but I love this line) and shake the dust from our sandals and stop casting our pearls before swine. Because that’s all such people are. Swine.

  • level75RDM

    @DarkZephyr: And that’s the craziest thing about this obsession with stereotypes. It is meant to appeal to the most simple-minded individuals. No critically thinking person, straight or otherwise, would use stereotypes to characterize somebody just because they know this one particular fact about them. Only uneducated people do that.

  • vive

    Ironically, so many “masculine” men (gay AND straight ) are really role-playing what they think are masculine traits just as much as some flamboyant fem guys AND girls. Just look, for example, at how straight guys in your local gym talk – they are petrified of seeming too articulate, smart, or educated because in America those are considered effete qualities – better to communicate in grunts or short sentences using simple words or curses, keep facial expressions carefully neutral, walk in a certain way, etc. This hypermasculine behavior is nothing but a form of “drag” either. Many of what we think of as “masculine” traits are not natural, but learned behaviors mimicked out of fear of not fitting in.

  • Paco

    @vive: Imagine my disappointment the number of times I have taken a hyper masculine guy to bed and the drag fell off. Not that it was bad. More like expecting strawberry and tasting vanilla instead.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @bskeete: i call your bluff. citations, and proof, please.

  • vive

    Some of the discrimination against fem guys is perpetrated by the very “gay rights” organizations themselves. Look at how carefully the marriage equality movement has distanced themselves from anything fem.

    Also, has anyone noticed that when an athlete in a traditionally very masculine sport, like a football, comes out of the closet, gay organizations and even the president fall over themselves to congratulate him. On the other hand, when someone a little more ambiguous comes out, nobody says a word. Fem guys are considered politically toxic by supposedly “tolerant” politicians and lobbyists.

    Then there is the nonsense, lots of it from gay people themselves, about how gay athletes and soldiers are a good thing because they “break down stereotypes,” which is code for “they don’t make me feel embarrassed in front of my bigoted parents.” How are fem guys supposed to feel welcome in a movement where the way they happen to be (i.e., stereotypical) is considered an embarrassment by some of the very spokesmen for organizations representing them?

  • TheDudesBF

    Don’t just blame masculine gay men for this. Our entire society values masculinity while devaluing, demonizing, mocking, and misrepresenting femininity.

    “Gossipy,””Needy,””Catty,””Dramatic,””Helpless,””Whiny,””Hypersensitive,””Vain,””Overemotional,””Illogical,””Bitchy,””Nagging,””Materialistic,””Attention-seeking,””Diva-ish,” In my opinion, these are the characteristics that most gay men are hoping to avoid when they write or say “I’m only interested in masculine guys.”

    It’s not so much that they “look down” on feminine men, but rather that they are (wrongly) associating these negative traits to femininity. Or, to be clearer, they are equating feminism with ONLY these negative traits. I think this all has more to do with sexism than it has to do with some kind of phobia/dislike of effeminate men by other gay men. It should be noted that often times feminine gay males say things like, “I’m only interested in masculine guys” too. Rarely do you hear any gay guy (butch or fem) say, “I’m really only into feminine guys.”

    To answer the question, “Why Do Masculine Gay Guys Look Down on Feminine Gay Guys?” one first needs to answer the question, “Why is femininity, in general, so misrepresented and devalued in our society?” The answer: thousands of years of male/masculine-dominated society that undervalues and misrepresents females and femininity.

    As a masculine gay man, I can tell you that I would date a feminine guy in a heartbeat if he possessed all the positive (but often overlooked) traits that are commonly associated with women and femininity – such as “Loyal,” ”Caring,” ”Nurturing,” ”Perceptive,” ”Encouraging,” Consoling,” and “Compassionate.” The problem with most of these so-called “masculine fem-haters” is that they probably do desire these same positive feminine traits, too — they are simply not expressing it and distinguishing it well enough so it comes across as being cruel or judgy. They might be better off saying, “I don’t look down on you because you’re feminine…. I look down on you because you’re a whiny drama queen. Those two things are NOT synonymous.”

  • candidguy

    Many ‘masculine’ gay guys are basically annoyed by the ‘feminine’ ones. Their over-the-top behavior and the way they speak and dress up reminds them of the most annoying women. Let’s face it, gay men are supposed to like men. If they’re not into women then they may well not be into men who behave like women. Feminine gay guys are basically women with dicks and without boobs.

    Well, what I said above is something that would hold true for some and not for the rest. I happen to be one of those ‘masculine’ gay guys. I’m not really macho myself but not feminine either. And I really can’t stand the way many feminine guys act, particularly the OTT ones.

    It’s not about looking down upon someone, it’s just about not being comfortable around them because of obnoxiousness.

  • candidguy

    @vive: I agree with you to a large extent but not completely.

    While masculine guys (str8 or gay) might try to look too macho, even when they aren’t naturally like that, they would still be ‘naturally’ masculine.

    There’s a difference between being masculine and really macho.

    And as for feminine guys, you find them among the str8 ones as well! It’s just that they are not totally obnoxious, OTT and flamboyant.

    The traits mentioned just above are what many masculine gay and str8 guys (including myself) can’t stand.

  • DarkZephyr

    @candidguy This discussion is not about so called obnoxiously flamboyant feminine gay men, it’s about feminine gay men period and how other gay men sometimes treat them. In your own post you pointed out that not all are like that. I would venture to add that MOST are not like that. So your statement is misplaced. Also, if you find the more flamboyant guys “annoying”, that’s not looking UP at them, it’s looking DOWN on them. I have to wonder also if you are aware of the mysoginistic implications of much of your post.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @candidguy: Do you hate OTT “ultra-masc-bro-dude” gays as well? You should. They’re obnoxious as fuck, and their internalized homophobia and insecurity is, frankly, pathetic and decidedly un-manly.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @DarkZephyr: yet again – i’m standing by it – all these “i’m masculine, and i find over the top feminine guys annoying” comments are, as they always are, 100% Anonymous.

  • vive

    @candidguy, “While masculine guys (str8 or gay) might try to look too macho, even when they aren’t naturally like that, they would still be ‘naturally’ masculine.”

    No, I think what you consider “`naturally’ masculine” is also largely a culturally learned mask. That becomes obvious once we observe that in various non-Western cultures men behave in ways that look to the Westerner to be markedly feminine, or have mannerisms that we would associate to be stereotypically female.

    So most North-American `masculine-acting’ men inhabit a learned stereotype without being aware of it (anymore), as much as `feminine’ men do.

  • TheDudesBF

    It seems like @Little-Kiwi is equating being visible with being obnoxious. There is a difference. Sure, people notice us when we’re obnoxious, but that’s not necessarily a good thing. If all gay men started the trend of walking on all four limbs, picking their noses and eating it in public, and farting in heterosexual folks’ faces you can bet they’d get noticed. Do you think those actions would really advance GLBT causes? Would we accuse those among us who refuse to eat their own boogers of being fake and weak? Would we accuse them of selling out because they want to fit in with all the rest of the hetero-normative non-booger eaters? One can be incredibly visible and not be obnoxious.

    Perhaps I’m being somewhat hyperbolic, but my point (I hope) is clear. Inauthentic actions and behaviors with high shock value performed in the name of becoming more visible is not what has helped the LGBTQ community progress. Neither have closed-minded, hyper-masculine GI-Joe archetype gays who feign disgust at anything feminine or anything that transgresses strict gender roles.

    Good folks being their authentic, respectful and assertive selves has. I want the LGBT community to be visible for the amazing things we do including the ways in which we overcome adversity. I am one of the top five most visible and known gay individuals at my place of employment (which employs and enrolls over 18,000 university students, faculty, and staff). I didn’t have to change who I was (become flamboyant, become sassy, or become obnoxious) in order to be visible. I simply needed to be active, introduce myself, spend time with people who aren’t gay, refuse to apologize, share my story, and take a step out of the gay neighborhood bar from time to time. That is how you become visible and effective change agents.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @TheDudesBF: Show us your visibility, please. Thanks.

    I’m not equating being visible with obnoxious, that’s a projection on your part, and your strawman “what-if” scenario has no basis in reality and shall be ignored.

    You can do what I do – be visible. *Can* you be visible? Click my name to see me.

    Flatly – I call your bluff. Proof please. URLs to see you.

  • vive

    @Little-Kiwi, and you’re cute as well as smart ;)

    B.t.w, I just came back from Toronto where I spent most of the summer so far. World Pride was indeed very interesting, including the few naked guys and girls :) It is surprising to me how little exposure World Pride got in the U.S. gay media though; you would think gay Americans would be a little less provincial.

  • candidguy

    @DarkZephyr: According to you, “MOST are not like that.” If that’s true then why are we having this discussion anyway and why was this article even written?

    I say what I see and how I feel myself. Just being HONEST (if you know what that means).

    AND I do NOT look down upon ANYBODY! Getting annoyed by somebody’s behavior is NOT EQUAL to looking down upon them. Please grow up and face facts!

  • candidguy

    @vive: Your point is valid but I feel mine is too and I think it’s a never ending discussion :)

  • TheDudesBF

    @Little-Kiwi: First of all, I’m not sure why this has to become so personal. I’m simply sharing my opinion of the topic at hand and in no way have I have asserted that YOU, personally, were obnoxious.

    Although, I will NOW say that the repeated “Bam! I call your bluff” statement is kind of obnoxious because I never purported to be presenting anything other than my opinion on this topic. Are you trying to say that I’m bluffing about what my own opinion is or isn’t? If you tell me you that you believe the color green is your favorite and I say, “BAM I call your bluff!!”… it would get annoying, right? Your opinion on this matter is valid and so is mine.

    Secondly, you don’t know me and I never asked to know you! I most certainly don’t need to prove or present evidence to you that I am an out and visible gay man because, again, this isn’t a debate. What are you really trying to get me to share? I don’t have a URL or a blog or any other self-aggrandizing site. That’s just not in my character. I’m not judging you for doing so (in fact I liked your video). I’m simply saying that I don’t have one but I’m still visible in other ways and it would be great if you respected me enough to believe that.

    My point (which I think you both missed and proved simultaneously) is that authenticity is what’s important. To thine own self be true! It would be as inauthentic for me to grow my hair long, put on a dress, makeup, and high heels as it might be for an effeminate guy to strap on a football uniform and play defensive end. There isn’t anything in the gay gene that automatically makes gay men effeminate or masculine so if a gay man happens to be masculine or feminine it doesn’t mean they’re “acting” or “hiding” or “conforming” or being ashamed of anything. Likewise, there’s nothing in the gay gene that automatically makes gay men obnoxious. In my opinion, if someone is acting obnoxiously and disrespectfully it has nothing to do with his sexual orientation or his gender expression. It has everything to do with how he was raised and his character. Therefore it is WAY OK for me to ignore or distance myself from him.

  • DarkZephyr

    @candidguy: So wait… You are changing your initial stance of not all are like that to MOST *are* like that? You just undid the part of your post that was a tiny attempt to make nicey-nice where you back peddled slightly to make it sound like you aren’t lumping all feminine gay men in the “obnoxiously flamboyant and annoying” camp. Not all, just *most*, right bro? Because after all “why else would we be having this discussion”? Right? I mean it’s ALL the fault of feminine guys that *certain* self identified masculine guys are a**holes to them in bars, on social media and on dating apps. Correct? It’s certainly nothing to do with anything obnoxious about these specific “straight acting” guys, right? And of course Jews really WERE to blame for Germany’s problems or why else woukd they have been butchered by Nazis by the millions? And we gays really WILL destroy the basic foundations of the wholesome straight family if we get married or why else would Republicans be having that discussion? Right? That is a fine piece of logic that you have employed there, bro-man. You impress me! As for “I’m just being honest” protest, duh. I didn’t think you were joking. What’s your point? Homophobes are just being honest when they say that they hate all if us.

    @Little-Kiwi: Yeah, I can see that as being quite likely.

  • level75RDM

    @TheDudesBF: What you’re seeing in this thread is the power that gay men give to stereotypes. Whether people are for living up to them or living against them, gay men are obsessed with gay stereotypes. Often, it even seems to be reactionary.

    The men here who insist they are masculine do actually have a case when they say that there are gay guys out there who say things like, “Any gay who doesn’t stan for a diva may as well have their gay card revoked.” I’ve seen sentiments similar to that around the internet, whether it be about Judy Garland, Britney Spears, fashion sense, or any other thing stereotypically associated with gay men. And when I see it, I agree that it’s among the stupidest things I’ve ever read. How dare anybody be so presumptuous as to call me of a failure of an LGBT individual over something so superficial?

    But that’s not what he original article was about. The original writing, that has gotten people so riled up, calls out those individuals who make equally asinine comments like:
    “Yeah, I’m gay. But not that kind of gay. I’m ‘straight acting.'”
    “Men should be masculine. If I wanted to marry a girl, I’d turn straight.”
    and, by the far the worst and most simple-minded,
    “If only gay guys would stop being such queens, the rest of the world would accept us.” You’d think people would be smart enough not to say this one, but lo, t’s turned up in the comments section of this very post.
    Those kinds of comments do demean femininity and people are in the right to take offense to that. Because there is nothing inherently wrong with being feminine. What’s more, just like the opposite end of the spectrum, it also undermines the authenticity of others. From both ends, you’ve got people shouting at each, “Who are you to tell me I’m not really like this?!”

    What’s more, when people insist they’re “straight acting” or “not like most gay guys”, it’s still building oneself around a stereotype, only in opposition of it. We’ve all seen it before:
    “I’m gay. But not that kind of gay. I don’t like fashion, or shopping, or pop music, or Glee, or chick flicks, or Barbara Streisand, or hairdressing!”
    Which begs the question, “Well, what do you like? And what’s wrong with all of that?…and who was asking anyway?!”
    Even though they don’t think so, they’ve just gave power to the stereotype to define people, rather than building themselves as if the stereotype itself doesn’t exist.

    Gay guys, for whatever reason, are obsessed with stereotypes. Whether they’re trying to play it up or actively deny it, way too much energy is being expended on stereotypes.

  • level75RDM

    @DarkZephyr: In one sense, I might have an idea why gay guys are so fixated on stereotypes. Well…I just thought this idea up now anyway.

    When I was young, this girl in the school bus once called me a “Ching Chong Chang.” She even went ahead and pulled back her eyes into slits. When I went home and told my parents what she did and asked what she meant by that, they used that as a teachable moment about racism. And they always reminded me that, no matter what, people will look at me differently because I am a minority.

    I get the feeling though that most parents never raise their children considering the possibility they made grow up gay. They never tell their children that people will prejudge them. Or that people will grasp for any reason, real or imagined, to treat them as a person of lesser worth. Their gay kids will never have that teachable moment. In fact, my own parents would point at two men walking down the street together holding hand and call that disgusting. It was only as I began to grow up that their tone suddenly shifted to one where they were like “We will love you no matter what and it’s not our right to judge people like that” when it was becoming apparent I was disinterested in girls and that I was actually fixated on one of my male friends.

    My suspicion is that many gay men are thrown into the world unprepared to being treated as minorities. I myself will never describe myself as more masculine or more feminine. I’ll tell people what I like and they will make that judgment for themselves. Indeed, they’ll make that judgment whether I want them to or not.

  • TheDudesBF

    @level75RDM: Great ideas and similar to the ones I made two posts ago about how femininity isn’t inherently obnoxious, catty, gossipy, insecure, or overly-dramatic.

    But that is how our society stereotypes females and subsequently femininity so it would be understandable why some gay men wanting to avoid all of that petty crap would (incorrectly) associate these two concepts and say they weren’t into feminine men.

  • TheDudesBF

    @level75RDM: And, it would also make sense that men who are obnoxious, catty, gossipy, insecure, and overly-dramatic are being rejected by masculine men and are trying to use the excuse “Oh, he doesn’t like me because I’m feminine”. Uhh.. wrong. He doesn’t like you because you’re insufferable.

  • level75RDM

    @TheDudesBF: Yes, some gay men do not want to be associated with being feminine because femininity is associated with being catty, gossipy, and overly-dramatic. But they would not be in the right to do so and that is not fair to people who are feminine…Or women for that matter.

    So because of this unfair association, feminine gay men must be talked down to by masculine gay men? The uneasiness is understandable in the same way that profiling middle easterners at the airport is “understandable”. Being understandable doesn’t make it right, and people should be trying to examine the reasons for their belief. Not willfully playing into it.

  • DarkZephyr

    @level75RDM: *Thunderous applause*. You and Kiwi are my two new favorite Queerty users lol.

  • TheDudesBF

    @level75RDM: I agree completely. No, feminine men SHOULD NOT be talked down to by inarticulate and unspecific masculine men. Please don’t think I’m supporting guys who prejudge, who are insensitive, and who are inarticulate.

    I should have written “It’s no surprise” instead of “understandable” because what I’m expressing is that almost EVERYONE (women, men, straight, gay, bi, etc) misunderstands and devalues what femininity is really about. Even many other feminine men. (Trust me I know a lot of feminine men who are only interested in dating masculine men).

    I did examine the reasons in my original post. This has more to do with sexism, and ignorance or outdated views about gender expression from ALL of society (not just masculine gay men).

  • TheDudesBF

    The article could just as easily be, “Why do so many straight men look down on feminine gay men?”

    or “Why do so many women look down on feminine gay men?”

    or “Why do so many lesbians look down on feminine gay men?”

    or “Why do even so many feminine gay men look down on other feminine gay men?”.

    My point is that this isn’t just a masculine gay man problem. This is a societal problem.

    The answers to ALL of the above questions are likely all almost identical.

  • DarkZephyr

    @TheDudesBF: “My point is that this isn’t just a masculine gay man problem. This is a societal problem.

    The answers to ALL of the above questions are likely all almost identical.”

    I see your point, and while its awful that this exists in all of the areas you mention, I feel that its existence within the gay community is even more reprehensible. So while its not only a masculine gay man problem, those masculine gay men who treat feminine gay men this way should be held to a much higher standard. We in the gay male community should all be supporting each other and not adding to the troubles that we already have with heterosexual people. We should be a brotherhood and fraternity and not attacking or mistreating ourselves from within. I find it shameful. I do not identify as masculine or feminine because of the prejudices that are going on within our community. I will admit to a time when I did my best to sound as heteronormatively masculine as I possibly could, I was consciously aware of every word and syllable that I uttered and how I said them, how much emphasis I placed on the “S” and the “T” when I spoke and what I did with my hands and wrists and how I walked, what I wore, etc. Now I just don’t give a crap and its very freeing. I don’t care how I am perceived at all any longer. It feels great.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @TheDudesBF: then stop likening “obnoxious” to “visible”, kiddo. And likening “feminine” to “gossipy, catty, bitchy, etc”

    you know – the same way many self-styled “masculine” men aren’t actually “masculine” – they’re just insecure homosexuals with no balls who don’t want people to think that they’re gay, who adopt an almost aggressively stupid, boorish, uncultured, neanderthalian persona.

    right? ;-)

    or as a friend said to a former classmate: “You’re not actually that masculine. You’re just unattractive and badly dressed”


    as per my “show yourself” comments – here’s why i make them, because those who denigrate perceived ‘effeminacy’ and tout their own ‘masculinity’ are, for some reason, never able to say “and here i am, here’s my example of it”

    the real problem is that too many gay men still define “masculinity” as something seen through the eyes of anti-gay heterosexual men.

    i went through it in my early 20s. then i grew some actual balls and started living my own life, not giving a flying fuck how someone else may choose to see or perceive me. you know, like a man. not a boy.

  • Little-Kiwi

    and to reiterate: i’ve never once met a “masculine gay guy” who looks down on, denigrates, distances himself from, or mocks “feminine guys”. I’ve only ever met or encountered insecure cowardly faux-macho posturing wimpy gay men whose “looking down on feminine guys” is an expression of their own insecurity and emasculation fears – usually from being raised by a misogynistic and anti-gay family.

  • CoachS

    “Feminine gay men don’t need to become more masculine to make you more comfortable, just like you don’t have to become completely straight just to make suspiciously-curious homophobes more comfortable”.

    Shouldn’t the analogy have been… “just like you don’t need to be more flamboyant to prove you’re gay”? I find the discrimination within the gay world to be the opposite.

    You even imply within the article that not letting our freak flag fly is a self rejection of what we truly are. Homosexual doesn’t equate to homogenous – but that attitude is exactly what keeps young gay athletes in the closet. They all believe that they’ll be expected to continue to be something that they’re not – just on the other side of the equation.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @CoachS: 100% incorrect. and here’s why.

    nobody, in any comment or article, has said “you need to be more flamboyant to prove that you’re gay”. at all. in any way. it’s not been said. and flamboyant means “loud and attention getting” – you know, like most straight guys at live sporting events.

    young gay athletes are not closeted “because other gays let their freak flag fly” – but because there’s a baseless, unintelligent knee-jerk response in culture that those who “do” are LESSER – the problem is guys like “CoachS” have capers for testes and aren’t being the Out Visible Role Models that claim people need.

    those athletes you speak of need to do the exact same thing every other young gay person needs to do: stop living in fear of what others may choose to think about, or perceive, you. that’s it.

    a “flamboyant and effeminate” twin doesn’t live his life worrying what a straight anti-gay bigot might think of him. those hypotethical closeted gay athletes you talk about? they need to do the same. and stop blaming the Out Loud and Proud for their own insecurity, and stop blaming them for the homophobic attitudes of straight anti-gay bigots.

    how about you lead by example, Coach, and show us your awesome example of male homosexuality? oh wait. you won’t.

  • TheDudesBF


    Are you even reading what I am writing, or are you so interested in debating and arguing with someone that you’re not taking time to actually read the comments?

    1) I’m not likening Visible to Obnoxious. I say quite clearly (multiple times) that one can be both VISIBLE and NOT OBNOXIOUSLY OTT. Therefore, they’re not synonymous words. And, I offer myself as an example. Don’t misquote me. Don’t project onto me what you wished I had written so that you can argue against it.

    2) I’m not likening Feminine with Catty, gossipy, and overly-dramatic. You CLEARLY haven’t read any of my posts. I’m saying that MANY men DO incorrectly liken these two things and they are wrong to do so, but it is not surprising because EVERYONE (including many feminine men) do so. I state multiple times that this is unfair, prejudgment, and inarticulate. Similarly it is unfair for Catty, gossipy, needy, and obnoxiously overly-dramatic men to whine, “Ohhh.. that frat dude doesn’t like me because I’m feminine” WRONG. He doesn’t like you because you’re insufferable.

    3) And this is important. Many “Self-Styled” Masculine gay men ARE actually and entirely authentically masculine. I know this may be difficult to believe, but having a gay gene doesn’t mean a feminine gender identity gene is fused to it.

    MY default is not feminine. Therefore my stereotypical masculine interests and masculine mannerisms are not being faked. I truly like these things. I truly am that way. For me to change would be entirely inauthentic. I have no interest one way or the other in fitting into a hetero-normative society. It just happens that I do. That doesn’t preclude me from challenging this same society about their beliefs – which I do every single day through my education work.

    Some men’s default is feminine and that’s totally OK. They should be honored and loved and treated fairly and equitably. Mine is not. For you or anyone in this stream to purport that my (or anyone’s, for that matter) masculinity is ANYTHING but entirely authentic if we tell you it is authentic is complete hypocrisy and disrespectful.

    Do I realize that some gay men whose default is feminine are pretending to be masculine and enjoy masculine privilege in order to fit in? Of course I realize that. But we don’t necessarily know them. We don’t know their lives or their specific hardships and challenges. We don’t know their struggles or what they have to do in order to survive in their family and their worlds? Gay men are being murdered all over the place around the world and we’re sitting here on this forum judging gay men everywhere for not dying their hair pink and putting on makeup if they want to? You don’t know what their lives are like. You can’t sit in judgement of someone else’s choices when you don’t know their story.

    Moral of THIS story: Gay men should stop being so judgmental all-around. Masculine, feminine, and anywhere in between.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @TheDudesBF: where have i ever linked being gay to being perceived-“feminine”? where have i ever said “authentic masculinity is an act/affectation?”

    answer: never

    “Gay men are being murdered all over the place around the world and we’re sitting here on this forum judging gay men everywhere for not dying their hair pink and putting on makeup if they want to?”

    Who’s done that? where? i haven’t.

    i’ve not seen you. i can’t see you “masculinity”. i can’t tell whether it’s authentic: you’re not a person who’s shown themselves: at present “YOU” are nothing more than words on a screen.

    where have i, or anyone else in here, said “your masculinity is inauthentic”? You’re making up an attack that doesn’t exist. You’ve not even shown yourself – i can’t comment on the “masculinity” of an anonymous and invisible non-entity, dude.

    “I know this may be difficult to believe, but having a gay gene doesn’t mean a feminine gender identity gene is fused to it.”

    Where have i ever suggested otherwise?

    I haven’t. I rather explicitly stated the opposite.

    read this. try to read all of it.

    the last one touches more on what i wish our community would address: that too many gay men still think “masculine means People Can’t Tell That You’re Gay” – which is complete and utter bullshit.

    for once, i wish someone in here would do what i do – and show themselves and the example they claim to embody and live.

  • candidguy

    @DarkZephyr: Having a discussion with you would be like banging my head against a wall :p NO THANK YOU!


  • DarkZephyr

    @candidguy: Acting like a drama queen is an odd way to express being sick of drama queens, but see ya!

  • i43neile

    I don’t have problems with femme guys.

    I just don’t like the attitude of some femme guys. I know they have it hard being feminine but it really does not give them the right to belittle anyone.

    I have met some femme guys during highschool and I hated them for outing me. Actually, they didn’t know if I was even gay. They just assumed I was because I had no girlfriends. And then there’s their sarcasm that can be very inappropriate at times.

    So far most of the femme guys I met are like that. It was only in Thailand that I’ve met a lot of femme guys that were really friendly and kind.

  • DarkZephyr

    @i43neile: Could your definition of “femme gay” be a bit narrow perhaps? I ask this with all due respect.

  • CoachS

    Because @Little-Kiwi … you know EXACTLY who I am and how I live my life and you apparently deal with young athletes and know how they think, as well.

    “Nunh unh” is not a debatable comment (no matter how many words you use to say it). Your prejudices are showing.

  • DarkZephyr

    @CoachS: He can only form his opinion of you based on your words here, and your initial post showed no compassion for the feminine gay men that are treated like crap by certain self identified “masculine” gay men, which was the point of this discussion. Your concern is clearly only for the masculine men because you seem to equate being athletic with being masculine, ignoring the fact that Kiwi himself has been an athlete. And I do not identify as masculine and I have also been an athlete. There are many fine gay athletes who do NOT identify as masculine, CoachS so your point makes little sense.

  • Little-Kiwi

    @CoachS: Prove it.

    I call your bluff. What prejudices? My prejudice against insecure anonymous cowards who blame everyone else for their problems? you made unintelligent straw man arguments. I’m calling your bluff – you can always do what i do; show yourself and the example you claim to live every day.

  • Little-Kiwi

    the most masculine men don’t “identify as masculine” – why not? they’re too busy not giving a fuck.

    “i’m masculine”, say people who really want you to think that they’re masculine.

    “masc” is like “COOL” – to be it, one must first stop hoping that people think you are it.

  • Cee

    @Little-Kiwi: Do you like Barbara Streisand or do you idolize her? A lot of gay men idolize female celebrities. What’s that about?

  • DarkZephyr

    @Cee: Because a lot of gay men like talent. Is that a problem?

  • Little-Kiwi

    @Cee: I think her voice is astounding, and her talent incredible. And, weirdly, we grow up thinking than an appreciation for her is “bad” because it’s a “stereotype”

    as if gay men who appreciate art, culture and talent should be mocked for it.

    i’m also obsessed with david bowie, the ramones, cheap trick, lou reed, iggy pop, and yet i’ve never been made to feel “embarrassed” for my love of hard classic punk rock. ever.

    i don’t really do Idolizing. Although Cyndi Lauper is my goddess.

    i find the gay men who fret most about “other gay men idolizing women” are really just saying “my family looked down on gays that do that”

  • AlexM123

    How are you going to write a topic on why macsuline men frown upon effeminate gays and then proceed to talk shit about masculine gay men? Who the hell are you to imply that masculine gay men are all self-loathing? How does being an effeminate queen make you bettet as a gay man? How does it make you any braver? It doesn’t. As gay men, we all go through the same struggle of enduring homophobia. Furthermore, your post did nothong more than further my dislike of effeminate gay men because you came as such stereotypical queen with it. The truth is that if more gay men were masculine and acted as such, there wouldn’t be such a stigma against gay people. No one would look at a gay football player and think “He’s a faggot” but that’s exactly what people think when they see guys with pink hair and sequined shirts.

    I think that effeminate gay guys make the rest of us look bad in the same way that black criminals make the hard working black people look bad. And even if they didn’t I still wouldn’t like them. I am a MAN and i want to date a MAN,not a a guy who could pass off as having a vagina.

    • Random

      @AlexM123: This is a bit of an odd comment when you talk about black criminals making black people look bad. White people can be criminals too, y’know, but does anyone seriously believe that all white people are bad apples or that’s it’s a poor reflection on the whole of white society? Er, no.

      Your last sentence about being ‘a MAN who want(s) to date a MAN’ is very revealing as it suggests you think there’s a certain way for a man to behave which, presumably means adhering to heteronormative masculinity. And it’s the very same heternormative masculinity that perpetuates the ‘enduring homophobia’ that you are only too aware of. Can you not see the connection?

      And if you think that if all gay men behaved like jocks there would be no more homophobia then you are very sadly mistaken. There’s a black president in the Whitehouse and yet racism in the US shows no signs of dying out any time soon.

  • XxCactusPracticexX

    The pith of perceived masculinity is made irrefutable by the belief that if one has a penis he should conduct himself within a set construct of ideals and mannerisms. The pinnacle law of this belief mandates that a penis should only be used for heterosexual sex. It is saddening and hilarious that a large portion of gay men have subscribed to the ‘man bible’ and omit the one law that condemns them. And you thought the Christians were hypocrites. No shortage of irony there. There isn’t any question that playing this game can earn you a better slice of the social pie, but be forewarned. Every game has it’s price.

    I did a little experiment myself. Three months ago I went out with my guys to a popular night spot that we frequent and instead of being myself, as I usually am, I decided to put on a masculine facade. Not that the men at this bar are unwelcoming of effeminate men, or that I’m not attractive. Everyone just always seems standoffish and ‘clicky’, but this experiment would prove otherwise. So there I was, ‘BRO’ from head to toe. My friends were fully aware of this for I had traded in my fedora, skimpy tank, skinny jeans, and ankle-booties for a Ralph Lauren Polo, Pastel golf-shorts, and Sperries with a Sam Adams Summer Ale to boot. I was so serious! I told my friends to be on the look out for wandering eyes, and within five seconds of my microaggressive legspreading and crotch grabbing the weight and insecurities of the entire bar fell upon me. No joke. Glances, inviting smiles, touching, groping. One guy, who may have been a Greek god, even introduced himself to us, apologized for what he was about to say, and proceeded to tell me that I was going home with him, no exceptions. He even offered me Denny’s for breakfast. Classy right? I had seen the other side, and it kind of hurt. Preference has a lot to do with it, but so does trend. Our culture demands that we unsheathe ourselves with relentless exercise and be the Sean Cody model that is hidden within us all. Be the prototypical man. Aren’t you a man? Then be one. When did we stop believing that who we are is good enough? That the fight we fight is not against our own but against an idea that serves to dehumanize us? When did we start believing in this idea? Have we believed it all along?

    Newsflash! Being too gay stops at being gay. You can be the truest form of yourself and someone will always call your bluff. Our culture, along with the human collective, is in dire need of a heaping dose of ‘I don’t give a fuck’. Who cares if anyone is more or less of anything than you? The truth is most do. Insecurity has not lost it’s prevalence. But I’m here to tell who ever is reading to stop giving a fuck. You will feel as if a load has been lifted from your shoulders as soon as you stop giving a fuck. You may not be strong enough to do this now, but one day, rest assured, you will run out of fucks to give.

  • whatevermaaaan

    Here we go… These issues in gay culture are not about who is feminine and who is masculine. I think it is about narcissism. To spread oneself out and about in such a flambouyant and often agressively rude way is nothing short of narcisistic behaviour. It is unattractive no matter how you display it.
    The average person is not homophobic – in other words they do not fear you, rather they are angry and annoyed at your obnoxiousness. Get it?!
    Again, men who bash obvious gays are not scared of you, they are embarrassed by you. In some situation it is clear that you may be considered to be fucking up their chances of being accepted as un-obvious gay men in a majority straight world. Yes I am afraid it’s the obnoxious fems that make the unobvious non-fem gays be treated badly in mainstream football teams for example. Talking generally, the average straight men’s mindset about gay people are formed by fems dancing in parades I am afraid.
    It is time people stopped talking about their right to be themselves, and start to consider others by displaying decent CHARACTER, for it is then that respect happens.

    • Random

      @whatevermaaaan: I find your comment odd as it implies that masculine men are always the height of decorum and civility and men can’t be rude and obnoxious, which I doubt you actually believe, but it makes it easier for you to be judgemental about supposedly ‘feminine’ men, if you frame the discussion is such terms.

      Everybody should aspire to be polite and likeable and, in that sense, whether they are masculine or feminine doesn’t make a jot of difference. I mean, a nice person is a nice person, right?

  • whatevermaaaan

    @Ihadtosayit: even that word Butch stems from Gay Culture. I find it repulsive because it is so loaded with sarcasm. Its negative to me because it seems gay culture thinks natural masculinity is fake. Its like if one displays a skill percieved as masculine or “straight” that that is funny and cant be real. It bugs me.

  • whatevermaaaan

    Continuing on from what I wrote above. I dont think people should be abusive ever. I am simply stating what I observe. Another aspect of this percieved homophobia is intolerance of people behaving differently from the majority, but again it’s not a fear, it’s an intolerance. It’s not good.
    I have however also observed some pretty obnoxious obvious fem gay men giving out a lot of attitude and abuse and in that instance I think they are asking for people to get angry back. People die this way, its true, or bashings occur. Its not good, but I dont always think the other person instigates it. There are some gay guys with a lot of attitude out there.

  • whatevermaaaan

    Another thing that comes to mind is I think SOME fem behaviour is LEARNT because some guys think they have to behave in that certain manner to be accepted by gay culture. We all see the way some people feminise their friends and use an entire new language all of a sudden. They dress differently and sometimes their speach really changes. For those gay men who do not change in their general mannerisms and demeaner this is hard to watch and to respect. The fact these men who do change are so stubborn and extreme about the way they embrace this new life and that they suddenly want to throw their new lifestyle in the entire worlds face can simply be taken as an attack upon the rest of the world and as a desire to try undermine the way things are. Quite frankly there has to be a better way to find acceptance. I dont know the answers but I do think we all need a chill pill and try to imagine how we are being perceived from other walks of life.

  • Random

    @whatevermaaaan: Also, you need to appreciate that ALL gendered behaviour is learned regardless of whether it’s masculine or feminine. If you think about the ‘jock’ persona, there’s no gene that makes young men act like that; they see other men behaving like that and simply copy them. Their behaviour is no more ‘natural’ than that of a feminine guy.

  • SimonRobertHarris

    Vaguely interesting…but some of the comments make more sense. Reads a bit angry…I don’t look down on anyone being flamboyant. I just don’t find it sexually appealing for me. Individual choices aren’t knocking our gay family…each to their own!! Norms need to be expanded like being equal in the world. Acting camp is something learnt and taught…like being a bigot, redneck etc…from a spiritual point of view and reincarnation…if were female in a previous life then that essence might linger through feeling like we’re not quite right being male…if men dress in a frock, great!…if your wanting to be noticed you will but don’t get upset, if someone upsets you!! That’s the world it happens across the board. If your viewed as fat, ugly, too skinny, bad mother, bad breath, whatever the criticism!! Love to all!! Sx

  • whatevermaaaan

    @Random: You are right there. The notion of straightness is damaged and broken. I come from the perspective of coping in a majority straight culture. I can see why some people act the way they do, treat others the way they do. Its fascinating , frustrating and sometimes really sad.
    No I would say not all gendered behaviour is learned. Much of it is natural from birth. Boys generally like certain things and girls like certain things but there are always exceptions and some of that reflects queer culture- people out of the majority behavioural patterns and thats ok cuz its part of the spectrum of the wonderful Humanity that we are. We all just need to accept it all and not be so narrow minded and trying to box each other.

    • Random

      @whatevermaaaan: But those things that girls and boys like are very often imposed on them from birth. Their gender identity is encouraged by their parents, with things like the colour of clothes i.e pink for girls and blue for boys. Studies have shown that parents and adults will talk to boy babies differently to girls babies and this continues with ever mounting intensity and the child grows. Therefore it’s inevitable that boys and girls evolve differently, because specific personality traits are encouraged and frowned upon accordingly.

      It wasn’t that long ago that it was generally considered that a woman’s role was primarily a domestic one whilst a man’s role was in the sphere of work and yet feminism – along with a couple of world wars – put pay to that idea once and for all. Now women not only work in similar numbers to men, but also do the same work. That quite clearly shows the extent to which cultural perceptions of gender powerfully impact on the way males and females behave and also how dramatically those perceptions can shift in a relatively short space of time.

  • KONAMI55

    @kiwi You should run for president and make history. :-)

  • jenny_marshall

    I’ve always found it hilarious that everyone seems to be under the impression that “masculine” gay men are super misogynistic just by simply existing but they all ignore the extreme misogyny committed by “femme” gay men.

  • wimich

    I personally think all this labeling is stupid. I like both “masculine” and “fem” neither makes much difference once you get to know someone.

  • tacoma4x4

    I know this article/rant is a bit dated now and most of the comments have dropped off, but so be it.

    I have nothing against effeminate men, gay or straight. I’ve had effeminate male friends – both gay and straight – and have never deliberately tried to insult them or look down on them. Sometimes they can be the life of a party, when they’re being themselves and not overtly trying to prove something. What is it exactly you’re trying to prove anyway?

    Personally I am not that way. Not because I’ve ever tried to hide anything, or prove anything, but just because that’s not who I am. I came out at a relatively young age. I’ve never had an interest in being an activist or trying to prove anything to anybody. I’ve told people I’m gay in the past and they didn’t believe me because I don’t “act” gay. Most people usually tell me I look intimidating or pissed off all the time. I’m not but that’s what I often get from people. It’s very frustrating, but it’s never made me want to put on a dress. I get hit on by women all the time, which can also be frustrating. It even pisses off my straight brothers who wish they could get the same attention from females that I often get and have always gotten since I was a kid. I wish I could get half the attention from guys that I get from women, but because I don’t give off the vibe that I’m gay, most guys I come in contact with have no clue until I tell them. People who get to know me usually wind up picking up on the fact that I’m gay, but it takes a while. Again, I’m not hiding anything, but I don’t wear it on my sleeve and I’ve never felt the need to. If I tried to act more gay than I really am, it would be fake and obvious and likely would not attract the type of guy I’m interested in.

    My only thing is that I’m not attracted to feminine traits, at all. Ever. A guy in a dress or make-up or even long hair is a complete turn-off for me. I’m not going to hate on him for it, and if I see someone else hating on him for it then I’ll be right there to help defend him. But I’m definitely not going to be thinking about him when I’m trying to get off. If I wanted a woman I would be with a woman. I’ve been with women before, it’s not my thing at all. What I like is the classic rugged farm boy. I grew up in the south, maybe that’s why. I like the smell of sweat and testosterone and hard work and the sound of a masculine voice and the feel of a furry chest and calloused hands. That’s what turns me on. Fishnets and mascara and tweezed baby soft skin do not.

    What I don’t like, and what does piss me off, is this constant attack on masculinity as though it is the root of all evil in the world that needs to be stamped out, and this false notion that gay men should “embrace their femininity”. Why? I’m not a woman, why should I try to behave like one? I don’t refer to my ass as a “mangina” – which is the most revolting word ever invented. I have no intention of ever being a woman or being with one again. Being gay and being effeminate are not inherently connected. If they were, then every gay man would be wearing their sisters clothes and speaking with lisps.

    Whether you agree with it or not, the fact is masculine men are the backbone of a strong society, the ones who defend you and build infrastructures and keep out invaders. Without them no society will last. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter who you bed down with, all that matters is that you have the strength to protect yourself and your community, now and in the future. You may think its silly and outdated and we don’t need the warrior mentality in modern society. And if that’s the case, just pick up a newspaper any day of the week and read about what’s going on in the rest of the world, outside of the bars and bath houses. I don’t see too many girly boys prancing around a battlefield spreading rainbows of joy and jello shots, do you? For the time being we don’t have to worry so much about that here in the states, but should the day ever come when we do, which is getting more and more likely with each passing day, who is going to defend you if all the guys are too busy worrying about what boots look good with that top?

  • 86Foxtrot

    Look down on us? Me beating the living crap out of two guys in my makeup and skinny jeans, you hiding in the passenger seat shaking in fear with all your muscle and beard. You owe all your right to us boyo.
    At the end of the day I have the courage to wear makeup and high heels and take on the world all by myself and you don’t. You say you hate us because deep down you know this to be true honey.
    I red an article on the Guardian about camp guys being seen less these days. Well we are in the same number as ever, it is just that those cowards who didn’t dare to step out of the closet in the 70’s and 80’s are now empowered to come out.
    Come back when your dick is as big as me heels.

  • paladin27


    (((End of the year response)))

    This right here is the best comment, and I couldn’t agree more. Also good to see there are other guys, who feel this way.

    I grew up in a military family, conservative, hunting/farming and mostly male. My mother passed when I was very young, so it was my father, uncle, and older brother who raised me and my other 3 brothers. I’m 20, and came out to my family at 15. My father told me he didn’t care, I was his son, and he loves me. My brothers were happy since the girls always give me more attention than them ha. I was raised to go by someone’s heart, and character nothing more.

    Definitely knew there were feminine guys out there, never hated em- just never felt as they do, nor am I attracted to that. It is definitely true that there are people who view masculinity as something bad. This is pretty much what modern feminism is about, they hate men. The ones who have left that crazy miserable movement, acknowledge that it has ruined many males, and females too- some of them have now become activist for men.

    Never equated femininity with sexuality, because I have encountered guys who are straight, but a bit on the girly side lol. One of them is a guy I am friends with. He used to walk home from school with me. He’s the artsy type, into fashion, was surprised when he found out I am homosexual- and people always think he’s the gay one, and I’m the straight one lol. He’d have a lot of those hipster chicks, or Asian girls into him, since he looks like a Japanese popstar lol. I’d always end up defending him if someone was bothering him. Walking home from school one day I got into a serious fight with these kids actually trying to attack him, and since self defense was a major thing growing up, his attackers ended up hurt, but I got suspended for fighting.

    Also never cared for the “gay pride” crap. I don’t feel a person needs to take pride in their sexuality, race, or whatever. Just being the best person you can be. Not ashamed of being homosexual, just don’t feel the need to “take pride” in it, or announce it to the world lol.

    I also will never call a guy “boyfriend”, or “husband”. I feel it implies someone has to be the “girlfriend” or “wife”- and it just seems funny to me lol.

  • John Mulholland

    While I am only too well aware of the antipathy toward those of us who tilt to the so-called feminine side of the equation, what bothers me is that people believe I am acting out, flaunting my femininity. No, no, no. I am being me, period. I move and speak without affectation. I am me.

    That said, I’ve long since gotten over feeling slighted when I see “masculine only” — it means, merely, that there wouldn’t be much we’d have in common if you are saying my effeminacy is the sum total of who I am. My effeminate nature is certainly integral to who I am, and I wouldn’t be me without it — nor would I want to be anything else — there is more, so much more.

    A shame that this seems to go on and on and on.

  • Peter

    Wish I could find a nice Fem guy. I’m on lots of dating sites but all seem to be all so macho. Maybe the Fem guys don’t need to use them. If there are any out there, please contact me!

  • rybuddy

    I am a masculine gay man who is attracted to other masculine gay men and in my experience I’m finding that a lot of guys who I politely tell I’m not interested in because they are too feminine for my taste will then fire back about me not being secure in some way. To make it seem like I’m the one with the “problem”. This has happened to me more and more lately and I think it’s very interesting psychology.
    First I’ll start off by saying there’s one statement I agree with here.  It does take a lot of courage to walk out of the house sporting a dress and pumps if you “stand out from the norm” Bravo.. let your freak flag fly.
    I have issues with how this person and MANY feminine guys view other guys who are masculine but still like other men and I’d like some feedback.
    Ok, sorry fem gents, I don’t think we are any less stable or secure with who are because we have preferences. The solution is much, much simpler. Ever think perhaps, that just maybe some dudes who are attracted to men are turned on by typical manly traits and that’s where it ends?  Just because I’m into masculine dudes how does that make me insecure about myself because you like to paint you nails while watching gossip girls? I mean seriously,  can someone give me an answer?  Are feminine gay men starting to feel THAT rejected and sad they need to start going after people who aren’t sexualy attracted to them to feel better?
    And no, the last statement is correct. You feminine men don’t need to become masculine to make me comfortable. Just like I don’t need to change my sexual preferences of masculinity to make you feel more comfortable. [Let’s hope]. You need to understand that everyone has preferences and me being honest with you is actually me being nice and it doesn’t mean I hate myself in some weird way because you can taste the rainbow among entering the same room as you and I’m not into that personality.
    So there you have it.  Love it, hate it, it’s up to YOU because everyone has preferences and I’m okay with that! :)

    • tacoma4x4

      Haha, well said Rybuddy. Just saw this in my e-mail. Being attracted to masculine men has zero to do with any insecurities. If I was attracted to feminine traits then I’d date a woman. Simple as that. And I’m definitely not attracted to bitchy queens with attitudes. I don’t understand this anti-man complex so many gay men have these days especially the younger ones. Makes absolutely no sense to me, but whatever.

    • rybuddy

      Sometimes I think feminine guys are hilarious, they would be a good catch for someone. But only as a friend with me , that’s all :)

  • FlexMaestro

    This post is insanely backwards. If anything, it’s the feminine guys that look down on the manly dudes. I have neighbors that are gay, that claimed to support me. I told them I didn’t see myself in gay culture and they kicked me out of their house.

    So many of yo believe that any manly man homo is putting on a show. You clearly don’t understand the continuum at play here.

    I don’t hate feminine men–I love and respect all good people. I hate that so few manly men are portrayed. That is called symbolic annihilation. I would have been so much less confused growing up if there were more manly portrayals of gay men.

    See that? I thought I was more feminine than I was because of the horribly skewed and hateful way so many gay guys are presented in the media. When I’m aroused, male is all the exists. I don’t wear masks. Every time I talk about this with people I make absolutely clear that feminine gay men are a beautiful manifestation of nature, and they must be respected. My manly attributes outnumber my female attributes 299 to 1.

    Any of yall dudes who don’t respect my manliness are as bad as you’re saying the others that don’t accept you are. How could you possibly believe that there is so little diversity…that no real, authentic manly homos could exhist? Such an outlook is parasitic in helping all of you grow and thrive in a world with men and women. You can be both! Shit! Why are you shitting on manhood? Ha I thought that’s what you were into…

    • Random

      @FlexMaestro: But how is being ‘manly’ difficult in a world which embraces masculinity? Ever look at profiles and see how many gay men are looking for feminine guys? I’m not saying it never happens, but the number of guys seeking that is vanishingly small. Gay culture mirrors straight culture in that overtly masculine men are prized in a way that men who are less so, aren’t.

    • rybuddy

      Amen dude! I’m tired of this debate. You fem dudes grew up being ridiculed and made fun of and instead of blaming society you blame other gay men who have masculine qualities? We don’t dislike you. You dislike yourselves and are looking for someone to blame. How about the feminine guys just date each other if us manly gay men are “too unaccepting”. Yeah that’s right I’m a masculine guy and I’m into other masculine men and proud if it. Don’t hate, I was born this way.

    • Random

      @rybuddy: Who says fem dudes dislike themselves and are ‘looking for someone to blame’? Sounds like you’re projecting to me.

    • rybuddy

      @Random: I’m not referring to you or any one specific person. Thanks for your input.

  • Random


    **I have neighbors that are gay, that claimed to support me. I told them I didn’t see myself in gay culture and they kicked me out of their house.**

    And I have to say, I simply don’t believe that someone would kick you out of their house *just* because you stated you didn’t see yourself reflected in gay culture. I’d wager there’s more to this incident that you’ve made out.

  • rybuddy

    @Random: It’s not hard to live in a world where society accepts masculinity in men more than feminine qualities. It’s just that Feminine guys are getting so upset at getting turned down or rejected that they are trying to make it harder for us to be gay and masculine by insinuating that psychologically there is something wrong with us because of our preferences. It’s not going to work, clearly, if you scroll up and read the comments. Feminine men need to start blaming themselves for societies distaste for them. The majority are narcissistic and embody the whole “I’m fabulous and I’m going to be a judgy gueen” image. That’s not attractive in women. Why would it be in men?

  • rybuddy

    @Random: *queen

  • Random

    @rybuddy: Nice try, but actually most people tend to find me pretty masculine – not that I’m particularly bothered either way.

  • Random

    @rybuddy: So why did you reply to me specifically if it was just a generally comment?

    • rybuddy

      @Random: I responded to you because you asked how being manly is hard in a world that embraces masculinity. I answered your question in my opinion. when I was talking about feminine men and their behaviors I was not talking about any one specifically, certainly not you. I don’t even know you.

    • Random


      **Feminine men need to start blaming themselves for societies distaste for them.**

      Why should feminine men need, or more to the point, have to do this? Why doesn’t society, straight and gay, just accept that there are many ways in which it’s possible to be a man – masculine, feminine, and everything in between?

    • rybuddy

      @Random: “Why should feminine men need, or more to the point, have to do this?”

      They don’t. It was a suggestion. I’m putting my opinion in my writing. You or anyone else don’t have to agree with me. The world would be boring if we all thought seems like you are looking for someone to go to war with on this topic and it’s not going to be me.I have real life things to do. I’ve said all I have to say.

    • Random

      @rybuddy: So it was an utterly pointless suggestion then to bolster your non-existent argument. Well done, sunshine.

    • rybuddy

      @Random: Yeah, put me and my very valid point down to make your ramblings seem legit and yourself feel better. Typical of your kind. Lol. Anyone notice a pattern here?

    • Random

      @rybuddy: Fact is, you don’t really have much of an argument, and what little you’ve hashed out so far has been all over the place, as if you’re just making things up on the hoof. But then, I guess, that’s pretty typical of *your* kind. LOL

    • rybuddy

      @Random: LMAO lolol hahahahhaha omg you’re like, soo funny guuuurl. Can we be besties??? ;D

    • rybuddy

      Ohh YES..That’s right I’m so dumb, c’mon you can do better than that, online forum humiliation really turns me on…insult me more..PLEASE?

    • Random

      @rybuddy: Thanks for proving my point.

    • rybuddy

      @Random: @Random: You are soo cute with your oh so witty comebacks..I may be falling for you… I thought I liked men though..I’m so confused now :(

  • rybuddy

    @Random: Ma’am, you don’t even make sense. My non existent argument? If you look up, open your eyes and read you’ll see my argument is pretty clear. Like I said before, find someone else to argue with. This is getting redundant and boring, sunshine.

  • Random


  • Random

    @rybuddy: Wow. There really is no beginning to your intelligence, is there?

    • rybuddy

      @Random: Deeerrr…wut? Me no lurn 2 reed inglish.

  • gohumanbeings

    Maybe the problem is more about these absurd categories everyone is so obsessed with placing anything and everything into, and less about problems within the “gay community”. Why does there even have to be a “gay community”. None of the gay guys I hang out with consider themselves part of some “community”, and I don’t. The problem is that when you make these rigid categories, and make guys like in the pics above the face of a category, and even associate everything that is considered gay aside from same sex relations with said category, you’re going to have people that lie about who they are to avoid it. I’m going to go ahead and say that people like the guys shown above are not the type people I would choose to be friends with, and they are sure as hell not the kind of guys I’m attracted to. I’m not going to “mistreat” them, and no one should, but if your idea of “mistreatment” is people just straight up not liking you and being honest about it, then you are making a complete mockery of actual problems that are going on. For someone who claims to be so brave about not caring what others think, the original poster sure has a lot of issues with what certain people think. Some people are disgusted with certain cultural fads. I feel like vomiting a little when I hear a guy speaking in a voice thats a mix between stereotypical black chick and valley girl while rolling his eyes back into his head and using hand gestures that are otherwise only seen used by bratty 5 year old girls, the same way some guys see guys that work out, like fishing, hiking, football, etc feel like whining about how persecuted they are online. Everyone just needs to get over it, and themselves, and move on. -my $.02

  • gohumanbeings

    And by the way, NONE of those traits are genetic or have anything to do with sexuality.

    • rybuddy A lot of feminine gay men I know have hang ups about the way they act or appear and are not that brave to go out in public, but kudos to anyone for being brave enough to be themselves in public. In my humble opinion, being a ‘real man’ comes.from within. Not how you act in public and how brave you are about it.

  • sthurnhiker

    As I was growing up, I wasn’t surrounded by effeminate men, I was surrounded by masculine men. I think that is the primary reason I am not attracted to effeminate men. While I have effeminate friends, I’ve always been attracted to guy who are just guys. The overly masculine types don’t do much for me either.

  • Ian Goldwyn

    Because even in the gay world there is discrimination. Horrific gays everywhere. I agree with this article. One time a friend told me, you have to find a boyfriend before you turn 40 because otherwise you might as well be dead… Ageism is rampant too…

  • Rory P. Rentmeester

    Because masculine gays are offended by the stereotype. The straight world thinks we are all effeminate and limpwristed. It compares to the stereotyping of blacks in the early part of the 19th century as simpletons and bunglers.

  • Liam Barnes

    You mean the same way that “feminine” gays constantly try to make non-feminine gays out to be “self loathing fags?” Because, you know, all gays are natural one way, and only one way. . . .

  • Edward Livingston

    Ageism is horrible , But we all have our limits. I have a issue with large people its a phobia I am working on. I know many who want date out of their race , its all very sad that we hurt those we should support and stand with not behind pushing away.

  • Brian J Curtis

    Men are dumb. I’m so masculine girls ask me at bars to kiss my boyfriend becuase they “don’t believe” I’m gay. I LOVE fems…not my type, but they’re always a blast to be friends with…best sassy jokes, too.

  • Darryl Moir

    They still don’t want the world to know, they pass and are embarassed of them selves, so no fems aloud.

  • Alistair Corvin

    I don’t look down on them, they’re some of my favorite people. I just can’t pull it off in the slightest.

  • Jim DelRae

    Huh… I treat all my gay brother’s and sister’s the way I expect to be treated. We’re all we have, we need to take care of one another.

  • Jacob Smiley

    Why do feminine gay men look down on eachother and only like ‘straight acting’ men? Stupid article.

  • Jose Salazar

    Because we’re sucking their dick and we’re on our knees?

  • Paul Chaisson

    Because every group of people carry insecurities!

  • Tom Rigirozzi

    Just be yourself, and let others be themselves. Just because you may not be attracted to a certain type is no reason to put them down. If you must judge others, judge them by how they treat you, not how they look!

  • Matthew Farris

    Because weak men ridicule what they don’t have the intelligence to understand.

  • Ken VanArsdale

    I don’t hate feminine men at all. Some of my best friends. But if I wanted to date someone feminine I would’ve stayed with women.

  • msc1208

    I have many guy friends that are fem and/or drag queens. I don’t say that all my drag queen friends are fem, because out of drag and out of character a lot of them are not fem in the least. I know from years of being in the gay community that there is someone out there for every cross-section of the gay community. I also have a few trans friends that are some of the best people I have ever known. I don’t consider myself fem or overly-masculine but maybe a combo of both. I prefer masculine men. The one thing I am tired of is apologizing for that. or being told that I must have some issues about being gay because I don’t date fem guys. Is it so hard to understand that I just don’t have any attraction for a feminine guy? no more so than I would a woman? I am not flamboyant and I never will be, not because I have an issue with it, but because its just not in my nature. I know that there is some prejudice against our own within the community, but that prejudice goes in both directions. We as a community need to acknowledge and embrace our differences if we expect the rest of the world to do so.

  • Derick Lindsey

    Idk. But I like both. Doesn’t matter to me. Some people are so dumb.

  • Bill Purcell

    I would love to look down on a feminine guy. I’d give him a big hug, a kiss, and then I’d buy him dinner…..

  • Johnny Jaqua

    The only time I look down on them is when we’re in the throws of passion. Some times I look up at them too.

  • Randy Kennell

    because a man wants a man who acts like a man he dose not want a man who acts like a women if i want a woman i would get a women

  • Dan Steele

    I don’t look down upon feminine guys. I find them enjoyable and sexually enjoyable.

  • Azul HerZog

    Many of them looks Incredible Amazing and live happy !! to be masculine its Not a guarantee of anything

  • Gerald Mosley

    I don’t look down on them, I love them!

  • Pablito Belanger

    The only time you should look down on someone else is when you’re topping him. ??

  • Boxton Beats

    I think we all play the blame game. Most of us are guilty of this whether we admit or not

  • Brandon Bretz

    I’m 28. And I guess I’m considered a cub? I’m attracted to Bears and stocky dudes etc etc but I think a lot of guys that consider themselves “masculine” are very insecure about themselves. And I’m totally content with throwing them under the bus. There’s a line. I like men. But I like men that don’t act like they need to be straight acting to be accepted. Just be you! Fem, dom, have 3 dicks. Who cares. Embrace you.

  • Ismael Smiley Flores

    “*no fats. *no blacks. *no fems.
    here for friends only”

    Im just there like…. well. Glad to know what a douche you are..

  • Ian Reeve

    Outside looking in here; I didn’t know this was a thing. This should be mitigated as much and as soon as possible, you have enough trouble getting the rest of society to respect you without making things that much harder via inward instability and fractiousness.

  • Stacey Johnson

    Well if ur on top n the fem is on the bottom looking down is all I can do…….

  • Cory M. Warren

    I don’t look down on fem guys or masculine guys; i look down on jackasses. i have alot of fem friends, even though people consider me more masculine than feminine, and i have known people of both ends of the spectrum i did not want to continue knowing. the person matters, not the label.

  • Lotta Yadayada

    Because we are just as bigoted as everyone else?

  • Jayden Lundquist

    The ones claiming to be so masculine. Are the first ones to throw they’re legs in the air. Trust me lol.

  • Andrew David

    prob bc feminine gay men are super goddamned annoying and come across as vain and superficial?

  • Craig Shapiro

    That’s there favorite position?

  • Carl Cordell

    I will never understand the self imposed segregation of the gay community. After being so hated and alienated you would think we would have a tight loving community.

  • Laurentum Mullan

    I think it’s the pretension factor add some preciousness and if your not cool like us and you get me loathing these queens

  • Samuel Klein

    “So, then, it makes sense that you would have a problem with someone who??s brave enough to be the person you don??t have the guts to be.” I’m kinda more masculine, it’s not that I’m not brave enough, it’s just that that’s not who I am.]

  • Todd Hansen

    Why do they look down on others? Cause they’re stupid assholes.

  • Brandon Phillips

    I don’t look down on them. I’m just not attracted to them.

  • Jeffrey Thomas

    oh please, isn’t there enough hatred coming our way from outside forces everyday to divide us without crap like this. This ridiculous “discrimination” works both ways, There are guys who will make fun of overtly masculine men by name calling and labeling. Who the hell cares? Get over yourselves. You will never rid human beings of their personal prejudices and dislikes. Some people will not like you in life. Get used to it. It’s one of the things that make us individuals.We will always choose what we do and do not like, it’s our basic human nature and even our love and hate.

  • Chris Cunningham

    Beats me.

    Could it be possible that they simply don’t like feminine personalities in general?

  • Chris Cunningham

    As for ageism as people have mentioned… I prefer to date someone around my own age, which is 25.

    However, ageism is stereotyping and discriminating against individuals or groups on the basis of their age.

    Basically, age discrimination… not having sexual feelings for someone in their 50’s, if you’re in your 20’s is not ageism, in my opinion.

    Otherwise, I could make the same case for eye color… I have green eyes and if you don’t like dating people with green eyes, that’s discrimination… that’s how silly that sounds to me.

  • Steve Hanson

    Because misogyny and homophobia come from the same place.

  • Tommy Ogletree

    Not all do. No matter who you are, someone will always look down on you.

  • Kelly Keigwin

    Because of misogyny and modeling ourselves after hetronormative gender roles. Simple. Being feminine = weakness. “man up!” It’s gross how insecurity and conformity cause this bullshit.

  • Dan Concepcion

    Tripe from a website that thinks taking an expensive medication with side effects is an attractive alternative to practicing safe sex.

  • Doug Lia

    Stand next to a couple of “Butch” gays at a bar and what are they talking about? Lace curtains. What to wear to an event or what their hair looks like.

  • L Daniel E Kaufman

    I don’t look down on feminine guys. I fall somewhere in the middle myself. I personally like more butch like fellows but its not my only interest. Why make this an issue? Weird. Slow news day?

  • Robert Monaco

    It’s not discrimination, it’s a preference.

  • Marty Maguire

    masculinity is sooooooo overrated, amirite ladies?

  • Cole Marentette

    Regardless of why, we really need to cut it the hell out. We’ve got enough people outside the community trying to put us down, we should stand with each other. Far as I’m concerned, I’ve got no time for that kind of petty nonsense.

  • Shawn Taylor

    all I have to say is…. get over it…. you can’t get acceptance without giving it, and a gay guy being bigoted to another gay guy is just STUPID!

  • Scott Nestler

    I don’t believe it’s right to generalize about all ‘Masculine Guys’, but speaking as someone whom is more masculine than feminine, I am personally just annoyed that the feminine gay male image, has become sort of the sole face and voice for the gay community, even if they are more obviously gay than those of us one migt have to speculate about.

    While more masculine gay men, whom might have more straight male typical interests, aside from whom they love and sleep with, have been sort of relegated to sex objects, if even that.

    Gay Media / Culture isn’t really interested in our interests. When reporting on some of those masculine gay male geeks attending ‘comic-con’, the focus is of course put on their bodies, as opposed to asking some of them, what they get out of geek culture. There is a time and place for gawking over hot bodies, but gay media/culture has enough of that, and is in serious need of some depth, it’s been too shallow, for too long, and maybe a lot of the fems that write for gay media blogs, are responsible for that, or that image anyways. And I don’t believe most gay men are even total fems anyways, most are more masculine appearing, or somewhere in between.

    So how did the effeminate gay male, become the mascot for the gay male community? I can only surmise on that, because they tend to make the gay blogs, and network based off their sexual orientation, where masculine gay males, tend to have other interests, and perhaps more straight male friends. I certainly can’t blame effeminate gay men, for finding empowerment in a fem blog/online network, but they should perhaps also remind people, they are just one flavor of gay men, and not speaking as self-appointed queens of gay culture.

    I feel that the fem push to make gay culture appear sort of show-business like, with female pop singers, and musical stage shows, has really alienated a lot of masculine gay men, even if it was not intentional at all. And having to reconcile to our young gay selves, that being gay does not mean we have to also be super fems, obsessed with pop culture and old musicals, has been for a lot of us a struggle, almost as much as bucking up against a religious anti-gay upbringing. And I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but it really does make masculine gay males, feel like they need to choose between living for their sexual identity, and try and conform to the effeminate nature of current gay media culture, or choose their personal (and non-sexual) hobbies and interests, and it shouldn’t have to be an either or. We also have to then show to people around us, that being gay just means being attracted to the same sex, it has nothing to do with being some narcissistic pop culture lover, that all too many gay bloggers or media correspondents kind of re-enforce the stereotype of.

  • Scot Moran

    Pretty general don’t you think? That like asking if all Christians are bigots, right?

  • ENmanuel Hidalgo Infante

    The feminine side of everything has been repressed by the paternalistic and patriarchal mindset promoted by theology. The reason for that is that the feminine is the intuitive side, the side that feels what is right and what is not. Theology is about the misuse of the male principle, in order to have a centralized system of control were one point of view is imposed upon everyone else as if it where the “only way” i.e. “his way” or “HIStory.” That fact lies at the root of this problem. Technologically, we have made advances, but the collective mind is still the mind of a medieval agricultural society. We have to evolve forward and definitely destroy the shackles of past orthodoxies including the culturally fabricated role models of gender that limit the scope of the individual and collective experiences and put people into “masculine” and “feminine” boxes. No man is 100% male and no female is 100% female. We have all male and female qualities and that does not necessarily have something to do with being gay, straight, bisexual, etc.

  • Dave Russo

    Actually, I prefer to be looking UP at them! :)

  • Dan Levin

    If masc guys actually cared about effeminate gay guys, then we’d have articles bashing them, saying how they’re just self hating homophobes afraid of their masculine side. But no. We have articles bashing the masc guys instead. I really wonder who truly looks down on whom.

    …I know it’s a small sample size, but the masc gay guys I know just don’t care about the masc / fem duality and are just being themselves.

    It’s just a hypothesis, but I think it’s because the fem guys write judgmental articles like this and are constantly telling the masculine guys that they aren’t gay enough, that they need to change to be welcome. It’s annoying and short sighted.

  • Dan Levin

    Okay. I read the article and have to say:

    Dressing up like a clown (like this dipshit) has absolutely nothing to do with your sexuality. That’s not effeminate. That’s not gay. That’s called being a weirdo. For some reason well beyond my understanding, this behavior is accepted and encouraged in the gay community.

    Being gay isn’t a choice, but I’ll be damned if anyone actually believes dressing up like that isn’t a choice. I’m not saying to conform to something you’re not, but when you actively make yourself stand out, don’t get pissy when people notice you.

  • Dan Levin

    “I am not less of a person because my hair is long, my eyebrows are plucked, I regularly wear makeup and dress feminine, or even for the way I choose to talk and present myself.”

    This sums it up best. The author is right. They’re not less of a person, but in the end it is a choice. Your orientation sure isn’t a choice, but if you choose to present yourself as an arrogant clown, you’ll get laughed at.

    Why do these effeminate gays care so much about what masculine guys think of them anyway?

  • Alan David Smith

    who are these councils that decide all this stuff anyways. is a question we should be asking. I learned something. confidence is what is important. look at the people we love. they walk down the street like they belong. once I began to own who I am. I found it can be harder to date. but more people talk to me now. do it for yourself. if you look good in a purple shirt. wear the purple shirt. and let others be who they are.

  • Alan David Smith

    after reading the article and a bunch of comment’s I think I will be alan. and you all can pick me apart as you please. will be much easier

  • Billy Sims

    They dont all look down on fems they just know what they want altho some do masculine ive not had any issues with either but do prefer masculine and straight looking . But ive got some very feminine gay freinds as well and they do seem to have all the lucj with the guys I must just be very picky

  • Jerie Ragsac

    Because feminine gays want to act like women, and “Women are not people” -Peter Griffin

  • Wil Birchard Snodgrass III

    The writer started strong then showed his own issues and contradicted his whole point by making it an article about personhood. Not bad, but would have been nice next time to stay on topic and change all those persons to MEN.

  • Kick Emerson

    Seems very angry/combative. #loveOnly

  • Dan Hutton

    The fem guys are in a lot of ways braver because they are more visible and therefore prone to discrimination.

  • Robby Chambrella

    I’m gay, I want to be with a man, not a girl.

  • Kevin Hurst

    They think they better because they’re “manly”
    I’ve found the same to be true of bisexual men

  • Lito Velázquez

    Simple. People??even gay people??can be shitty excuses for human beings.

  • Daniel L Hatchett

    Because femenity is a sign of a lesser strength than the masculine man. And gay men have this fascination with being seen as an equal to heterosexual men (the beard, tattoos, muscles) so they look down on anything that portrays them as anything less than that.

    And gay men have this thing about taking power back. They got their asses beat down in high school so now they have to have some kind of power by disliking anything that differs from them. Basically, gay men are bullies.

  • Tom Hill

    The insinuation that I resent is that masculine gay guys are just “closeted, repressive, and in self-denial.”

    I’ve literally heard it from straight guys and femme gay guys: Masculine gay guys just “put on airs” and that if they were real with themselves they’d be femme too.

    That is what I resent… This notion that all male homosexuals are inherently effeminate and that to be otherwise is just an act.

  • David StAmour

    I have to agree (especially since most are bottoms).
    I can not comment without admitting when I was closeted I too had “my issues” with drag queens & effeminate men. It was when I realized that it was THOSE GAYS that had the strength to fight the police in NY in 1969 which started the whole GayRights movement. We should still honor those brave fighters, stick together & continue the fight together!
    As I say to others “I don’t ‘act straight’ I’m just me” & I can camp It up with the best of them.
    I would come to the defence of anyone being abused, but especially one of our own. I love ALL you guys & gals.

  • Steven Shelley

    Because they are on the bottom? Lol

  • Raymond Nicolai-Vargas

    Dont feel comfortable in their own skin! Too much into stereotypes and accepting of others!

  • Christopher Auker-Howlett

    When I was in the Airborne Forces late 1990s in Aldershot being gay was illegal. When i did go out looking for a gay scene the best, the honest, strongest, gay guys in the gay pub in Reading, were the ‘Camp Gays’ they looked after me when I was in a mess.

  • John S Monte

    HA…Wait until you get old….you think they look down on Feminine Queens…….I can only say….Dont get old!!! LOL Gays are the most preudice group I know of…and I am a OLD Queer who has seen it all.

  • John S Monte

    Another thing…get off the pitty Pot…..Masculine……Feminine…..Seiously Queens…..we just like any other group stick with what we are more comfortable with. I on the other hand never …Never based my friendships on ones Personal Traits. I love Queens !!!!

  • Joseph Young

    There is only one instance when I look down on one of the femmes… can you guess when that is??? lol I love pretty men!!

  • Daryl Gibson

    Because of the way the feminine guys act? Most people feel if you where born a man then you should act masculine.

  • Charles Winston

    That is a GOOD Question. And why the feminine Gay Guys must to be in the Face of Masculine Gay Guys. Why The Fem Gay guys are so Fem I can’t understand that. Why would I go with Fem gay for hook up? My is well go with a girl. Just saying. If you gay that’s Ok, just be normal. I am not sure if being Fem it is normal. Peace! Be Nice if you reply.

  • paladin27

    To me its all about the character, so no I don’t look down on someone unless they posses a poor character. As far as feminine men go.. I also don’t see femininity or masculinity as identifiers of sexuality. I know straight guys who are very feminine, and girls who are into that.. I’m not. I am a man, who happens to be homosexual, which means I am attracted to men. I have no attraction for someone who wants to emulate a female, since I am not attracted to females.. I also don’t like the feminization of males gay or straight today, which also leads to my great disdain for modern feminism, or as I like to call “faux feminism”, which is nothing more than a group of miserable pathetic women, and weak men, who want to trash masculinity and men because it threatens them.

    Nope, not a fan of Lady Gaga, or any other dance cluby music.. I like my metal, and the geek in me also likes a lot of video game music. I also do not look to “strong women” as role models, but have looked to strong men, one and first being my father who is a good man, a strong man, and I am fortunate enough to be close to as we’ve always been, after I had told him I am homosexual, and we had a long and awesome talk about it. By the way he greatly approves of the guy I am with, who is a fighter, and was in military (special forces), he was surprised but then began to understand it and accept it more so when we began talking about certain men of the ancient world.. Some of whom have also been somewhat role models.

    Not into the gay clubs bars, or parades… Those places do not represent me, and just not my scene. I am proud of the man I am, and because I know I am fortunately to have a good father and other strong male role models.. I help mentor kids regardless of sexuality, who don’t have strong male role models in their lives.

  • GuliKala123

    @surreal33: But there are feminine gay men who aren’t exactly like that……

  • emjo

    I think the reason masculine gay guys look down on feminine guys because society teaches people from an early age that masculinity is supreme and attractive. We are fed this by the media – films, ads, magazines, the list goes on. You go on a gay dating app and so many men have “masculine guys only” as their headline. It’s actually quite damaging to the gay community. We are reducing the visibility and normalisation of feminine men because we accept and project what we are fed, or what we are told is desirable. I don’t understand why masculine gay men can’t just accept an attractive face for an attractive face, regardless of what criteria or “category” it falls into (masc, fem, rugged, think, bear, geek, daddy etc).

    • akshayinbox

      I get what you are saying @emjo, however, in that case same can be said about “attractive face” – what is one? That fed to us by media?
      At the end of the day you are attracted to men or not. For me, personally, it’s been both masc. and slightly fem. men but not too fem, otherwise I’d have been dating a woman. Thank you.

  • bono51188

    i think this is basically your on the other side of the fence bashing guys because they feel comfortable acting “straight” im sorry i was born a guy that what ive always been attracted t, and what im used to acting like. i dont think “fems are tougher because they dont care what people think” that is so stupid. i just happen to like to be masculine and i cant change that but i never hestitate to say “im gay”. and i also dont mind feminine gays. this is such a biased story.

  • bono51188


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