Plastic Fantastic

After All The Surgery, Can We Still Love Courtney, Kim, and Tori?


Do you remember when Courtney Love was only Pretty on the Inside, Lil’ Kim was truly Hard Core, and Tori Amos was Under the Pink, not under the knife? Those were the days. Each one of these women built careers on fearless self-expression, which, in turn, attracted loyal gay followings. Now each one has undergone obvious, err, “physical restoration.” When the straight girls we turned to to find beauty in ourselves now require a surgeon to make themselves feel pretty, what are we supposed to think of them? Does undergoing plastic surgery undermine their original take-me-as-I-am-or-fuck-off messages?

In her prime, Courtney Love represented to me what Patti Smith and punk icon, Exene, represented to her: female freedom. And in 1995, female freedom was synonymous with queer freedom. Watching Courtney on stage hoarsely screaming at God and the heavens until she exploded into a stage-dive was downright cathartic. She was rage personified. She even scared Madonna. What’s better than that?

In 2003, a New York Times rock critic revealed his editor ordered him to prepare an obituary for Courtney Love — just in case. Maybe the newspaper should’ve published it: The Courtney Love I admired died six years earlier.

Spearheading what would be one of her many “I’m-clean-and-sober-now” campaigns, she appeared on the cover of a December 1997 issue of Us Weekly clad in a bikini, boa, and retooled face as “The New Courtney Love.” That’s not very punk rock.

Courtney’s behavior was so erratic that it wasn’t entirely shocking when she got her tits done. But then she got her nose done. And then her chin. And her eyes. And probably a few things you can only see when she wears shredded clothing (which is often). As the title of her first album, Pretty on the Inside, suggests, Love has long been preoccupied with how one’s external appearance affects perceptions of one’s internal appearance. Can you cover rage with make-up? Make-up, like drugs or plastic surgery, is a temporary fix. Today, Courtney’s patchwork physical appearance pays homage to the insanity within her.

At least Courtney admits to having plastic surgery. “How couldn’t she admit it? It’s so obvious,” you’re thinking. Tell that to Lil’ Kim, who dare not speak the scalpel’s name. When a BET reporter inquired about her plastic surgery during a March 2009 phone interview, Kim hung up on his ass. Girl power!


At four-foot-eleven, Kimberly Denise Jones — aka Lil’ Kim aka Queen Bee aka Queen Bitch aka Miss White — was the essence of “fierce” before Tyra Banks raped that word. With the help of the Notorious BIG, Kim tasered the misogynist rap fraternity into submission with her own brand of crass rhymes that, for once, sexually objectified the boys. It was a game of “Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better” and Kim could fuck, suck, steal, and kill better than any man. She made chicken-heads out of thugs, bragging about “buffoons eatin’ [her] pussy while [she] watched cartoons.” She was the boss bitch, the female Don Dada. Her unapologetic vulgarities could fill even the most oppressed person with delusions of grandeur.

Which is why I fell in love with her.

In the gangsta rap game, confidence is of the utmost importance. Confidence equals power and the moment you show vulnerability, you’re through. As a result, when Kim started altering herself physically, her power began to dwindle. Each physical augmentation was an albatross dangling between her inflated bosoms, revealing Kim’s deep-rooted self-hatred and insecurity. Kim is only 34 and she could trump Joan Rivers and Cher combined for the total number of “medical procedures” she’s enjoyed. So how can I listen to her rap how about how fly she is when it’s clear clear she doesn’t even like herself? And how is she going to claim she’s hardcore when she’s on “Dancing with the Stars?”

Biggie Smalls is his rolling in his double-wide grave.


Of all three women, Tori Amos seemed to have the most integrity. An outspoken critic of the patriarchy, Amos has long been a modern-thinker, tackling social issues like religious oppression, feminism, and homophobia head on. Fans turned her into a deity, relied upon to represent their own views. She is a pied piper for social outcasts and, like Courtney Love, has never been shy about expressing her opinions or emotions. Unlike Love, the more professional Amos keeps her fire confined to interviews and performances.

So weren’t we dumbfounded when our beautiful leader began to transform before our very eyes?

Her skin tightened, her hairline crept upwards, and her formerly sleepy eyes were suddenly shocked wide open leaving one noticeably smaller than the other. In a 2002 conversation with music critic Ann Powers, Amos briefly reflected upon the difference between sex symbols and people with “heart”: “Some people have become sex symbols in their careers, and that’s a very different road to take than if you’re talking about the heart. That doesn’t mean I won’t get my Botox shots. I don’t know what I’m going to do because that’s between you and your dermatologist.” Well, between you and me, I think she went with the Botox and might have gone as far as a brow Lift.

Good plastic surgery is hard to detect. The patient is left looking refreshed, not altered. Each of these women built careers on an image of proud authenticity: Courtney was a shit-kicker, Kim was a dick-licker, and Tori was the self-proclaimed “Queen of the Nerds.”

Whether it’s right or wrong, my perception of each of these women and their work is affected by their decision to drastically manipulate their appearance. Every vanished wrinkle, swollen lip, and frozen facial muscle brings into question their previous messages of female freedom.



Gay life ain’t no place for sissies. But it should be. The Unabashed Queer (Government Name: Matt Siegel) serves to affirm the vast array of queer identities. Originally from Atlanta, Siegel realized his independence above the Mason-Dixon Line at Northfield Mount Hermon School and subsequently, Sarah Lawrence College. In a marijuana- induced haze, Siegel came to Los Angeles and has found himself employed in the homes of Adam Carolla, Arianna Huffington, and Jill Clayburgh. How queer is that? Read Matt’s blog here.

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  • GoKitty

    Well, your first mistake is calling Courtney Love a “punk”. Courtney was always a wannabe and despised in the riot grrrl movement. She was the Avril Lavigne of the 90s to anyone in the know.

    Having said that, I dont feel any differently about them because of any cosmetic surgery. They aren’t gods, as much as we would like them to be, and have all the human insecurities with the money to act upon them. Why should I hold it against them for trying to self improve when I also smother my face in night cream and work out at the local gym.

    In closing, isn’t “female freedom” whatever they choose it to be and not what you, a male, want to assign to it. Can’t they be pretty on the outside as well as pretty on the inside?

  • Fitz

    I am so bored by people getting high and mighty about plastic surgery. Have you ever done anything to change your appearance so that you felt better? Dropped a few pounds that, medically, were just fine? Colored your hair? Gotten a tan, a tattoo? It can come from a place of personal power to say “I don’t like these lines” and just change them.. for you. Not to get laid, or employed, but just for you.

  • James

    Isn’t this a post for jossip?

  • ChristopherJ

    @GoKitty: Bingo.

  • ben

    The only plastic surgery that is at all evident in your Tori Amos photos in her new nose. In my opinion, had she ignored the options so readily available to her (namely, her wealth and availability of talented surgeons to aid her in feeling more confidant in her aging appearance as a public figure) then she would be bowing to social constrictions and imposed standards enforced by chauvinistic straight men but more harshly by hypocritical nasty gays like the proprietors of this website.

    I find Madonna’s increasingly pathetic reinvention toward the image of a nineteen year old girl markedly absent from this scathing criticism of women who – even courtney – have likely had less work done than Madge. Even Madonna’s much heralded disciplined exercise routines and neurotic diet are means to the same end – youthful appearance and constant public relevance. I admire her willpower, nothing can be said against her in that regard, but she’s overly feted for how to manages her priorities.

    In short, gents. Whether you’re a woman nairing your legs for your boyfriend, a gay hitting the gym 5 times a week, a teenage girl searching for a skin care system that keeps pimples away, or a music star getting a nose job, you are responding to the exact same social esteem placed upon appearance.

  • The Gay

    Who cares? If I had the money I’d be getting the fat sucked out of my stomach right now! A nose job maybe in order too …

    Women are fucked! If they get old gracefully everyone says “Oh my god! She’s so old!” if they get plastic surgery it’s “Oh my god! How dare they get surgery and not age gracefully! They look scary, they look like crap, they look like garbage!”

    To each their own! What do I care? Enjoy your friends, enjoy your family, enjoy your boyfriends, have a glass a wine, live a little! The whole world is gonna blow up!

  • shortstaxx

    Kudos Mr. Siegel-i feel the same way. your essay nails it succinctly and without being sanctimonious.
    #2–the author clearly states that this is his own opinion “right or wrong”–he’s not being “high and mighty” and using makeup or losing weight is a far cry from going under the knife and risking its complication and possible death (Kanye West’s mother for one). and you fail to grasp the sexist and societal reasons that people primarily women mutilate themselves in order to never grow old in our sexist, superficial, appearance and youth – obsessed society.

  • shortstaxx

    “female freedom” to conform to a ubiquitous, overwhelming, sexist and superficial societal mandate–that you’re only valuable as a female if you’re hot, young and sexy? yeah i guess. not.

  • michael

    @ben: Thank you Ben, especially for that last paragraph. Somehow gays think that strategically working your body & waxing it to no end gives one a normal youthful appearance. I grew up in a farming community and I know what boys with real muscles, developed in the right places look like. A lot gays try to bullshit themselves & others into thinking its all about health. Yeah, thats what all the enhancers, steriods etc are for, health.

  • shortstaxx

    @The Gay:
    this is so true. we ARE fucked.

  • Fitz

    @shortstaxx: Actually, people die from skin cancer, hep C from tatt’s, get infections from make up, get MRSA at the gym, not to mention injuries.. crap happens. Even with surgery. Kayne’s mom: Went out of country, why? probably she wanted something too severe that they wouldn’t do here, or something. Or she had a cardiac situation, and the doctors here wanted her QT interval checked, and she refused. Sad, but it happens. And I will be really “out” about this: I have had a little work done. Nothing crazy, just turned back the clock 8 or 10 years. Love it. Couldn’t recommend it highly enough.

  • Robert Schrader

    While it’s true that Tori Amos has had a brow lift (Fall 2004) and a lot of botox, the two photos shown are bad examples of the difference in her appearance. She’s looking down and making a dramatic face in the first one, which was shot by a professional photographer for inStyle magazine in 2002. The second one, taken nearly 7 years later by an amateur at a random radio station session in Austin, TX, shows Tori smiling and posing. Not a great comparison.

    What I don’t understand is why this article was published as such? It attempts to make some potentially valid points, but doesn’t tie anything together and rests its credibility in the fact that its author happens to be employed by this website.

    Oh well.

  • Michael vdB

    If you want plastic surgery…go for it. Refresh yourself. Can you go overboard…sure…as with anything. Just keep safe.

  • goony tunes

    small noses, thats what its all about…there should be a discussion on why small noses are so desirable…i mean the argument is that people get plastic surgery to make them feel better but in reality its to fit a standard that is perpetuated by …….

  • Shawn

    More disturbing to me than Lil’ Kim’s obviously numerous surgeries is the fact that she seems to be trying to make herself look whiter, or at least paler. WHAT is up with that?

  • Lady Stardust

    @Shawn, Equally disturbing is Love trying to go darker and more tan, shocking!


  • goony tunes

    its not a black or white thing…its the medium tones we all want…the jLO glow…the beyonce brown…shakira knows what i’m talking about…can’t be too pick-a-ninny black anymore (ask oprah)..nor a shade too pale (just ask the royal family)…. we like em toasty..but with those damned small noses lol

  • mb00

    @GoKitty: ah, you better get your facts straight before you get it twisted GoKitty.
    Courtney Love was NOT the Avril Lavigne of her time. Yeah, she’s a hot mess, and did sell out after the success with their 2nd album. but Courtney Love is far more talented than one of Lavigne’s eyelashes.
    Courtney Love has been around allot longer than when Hole’s 2nd album “Miss World” became a hit. She also had a tinsy winsy role in Side & Nancy as Nancy’s friend Gretchen.
    She’s been around along time and I’d always run into her while out & about the streets of Hollywood long before any succces came her way.
    So please, if you’re gonna insult her, find a better way than throwing that snatch Avril Lavigne around.

  • dgz

    i’m consistently surprised by people who think plasticky faces are attractive. they look ridiculous! lil kim looks like a blow-up doll, for example.

  • mb00

    oh, and I almost forgot after I ranted on & on, I liked Courtney without all her surgery. She’s definitely gone the way of Michael Jackson.
    Lil’ Kim, I don’t even know what race she is anymore.
    But Tori Amos. I’m shocked. I didn’t take her for the vain cosmetic surgery type. But she has gone the deep end lately though. She says some crazy shit. I saw an interview once with her and she was talking about the garden of eden or some shit like that and how she didn’t call it the garden of sin but rather the “garden of SIN-Suality. I was like the fuck is this crazy bitch talking.

  • Matt

    Who cares if Kim’s had surgery? The Naked Truth was GENIUS.

  • Greg

    What about poor Drew Barrymore…?

  • Fitz

    @dgz: I think it is like Transexuals: you only notice the ones who aren’t so blessed or good at it. the rest live comfortably amongst us.

  • Sarah

    I actually bought Courtney’s screw-your-conventional-standards act back when she was in Hole. When she tried to turn herself into a starlet at the first available opportunity, I felt like an idiot for not pegging her as a poser from the start. I was never a huge Hole fan, but it was still a disappointment.

    “Does undergoing plastic surgery undermine their original take-me-as-I-am-or-fuck-off messages?”

    Absolutely. Either their original message was just a gimmick or they lost their metaphorical balls as they got older. It’s one thing for the average person to get a little work done. It’s another thing to build a very public career on an image of (relative) independence from restrictive cultural standards, then turn around and embrace superficiality.

  • Mary Queen of Scots

    Just because a gay man worships a woman, doesn’t mean he has any right to insinuate he knows what is best for her.

    Seems like you just might be jealous, girl.

    Aside from being full of dim-witted misogyny and stupid gay drama, this piece is also filled with countless grammar and punctuation mistakes, fyi.

  • bodega vendetta

    ok, first of all, tori whatever her name is, was always tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiired, the only way i would ever be interested
    in her is if she replaced that honker with a giant cock, and hey,
    ….Lil’ many licks does it take to get to the center of it? that bitch looks good and she is still fiercealafierce
    and finally I’d have to agree with the angry lesbo who commented
    first, courtney is about as punk as that queen that swallowed the inner tube, bruce vilanch.

    and um,…..i’m getting my boobs done immediately.

  • prvtdncr

    put that money into your face

  • awful

    what did courtney love say right before she shot kurt?
    hole’s gonna be huge

  • prvtdncr1

    AND while bodega is in getting a couple of giant tits, i’m gonna get my ears moved to the back of my head so i can hear what you bitches are saying about me as i walk away from you. Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

  • SimpleSugar

    @mb00: Ok first off the second Hole album was called “Live Through This”.
    NOW Courtney Love would have had a harder time gaining fame had she not married the late Kurt Cobain in Feb 1992.
    Yes she appeared in movies in the mid-1980’s I HAVE SEEN them and they werent all that great. But she should’ve stayed with acting and just produced music.
    She very interesting to watch as a trainwreck….but honestly the Courtney I look up too “died” in 1994/1995. Courtney will always make me think of a Nancy Spungen wannabe. Sorry she just does. But I agree comparing her to Avril is wrong. Avril makes me gag on my life and wish for death.

  • realreppinhiphop

    Bitch get a life and stop hating on kim, she can’t be a raunchy slut all her life, let the woman evolve even if it means changing her appearance dam, can’t the bitch breathe??

  • osocubano

    Never cared for any of them, why should I start now?

  • Robert Schrader

    The only good part about Tori having plastic surgery is that it infuriates her deformed-looking fans, who felt a kinship with her when she was less-than-perfect and less-than-skinny. There is this forum called which is filled with these pathetic people. Key users you should avoid include Kari, Rizzabella, swirly, Nancy, Troll Kollins, ebby, Loca, and ViolentStar. There are more, of course, but you will figure that out if you register there. These people are ugly, fat, miserable, and don’t even like Tori Amos’ music anymore. They just post there to demean Tori Amos so they can feel better about themselves. They even start threads for the purpose of protecting their “right” to be negative–negative about Tori Amos on a Tori Amos forum! What imbeciles.

  • Robert Schrader

    The only good part about Tori Amos having plastic surgery is that it infuriates her deformed-looking fans, who felt a kinship with her when she was less-than-perfect and less-than-skinny. There is this forum called which is filled with these pathetic people. Key users you should avoid include Kari, Rizzabella, swirly, Nancy, Troll Kollins, ebby, Loca, and ViolentStar. There are more, of course, but you will figure that out if you register there. These people are ugly, fat, miserable, and don’t even like Tori Amos’ music anymore. They just post there to demean Tori Amos so they can feel better about themselves. They even start threads for the purpose of protecting their “right” to be negative–negative about Tori Amos on a Tori Amos forum! What imbeciles.

  • shortstaxx

    i could not have said it better myself.

  • shortstaxx

    gee i didn’t know people died from these other things too? thanks for enlightening me. give me a break-you’re being disingenuous.

  • Fitz

    @shortstaxx: What is disingenuous about it? You stated that plastic surgery was life threatening. Life is life threatening. We take risks everyday for the things we want.

  • Franco

    Tori hasn’t had any plastic surgery. One photo is of her when she was 28, the other when she is 45. I know 45 year old women, and they’re just as gorgeous without the surgery. She looks 45 to me, and good for her.

  • prvtdncr2

    i’m so glad you guys brought up avril. last friday night at the el rey in the vip area i thought avril stole my iphone for 3 minutes until i found it way over on the side of this long banquette where she was sitting with her husband and friends. she had her ass right on the super cute vest that i had taken off cuz it was so fucking hot in there
    cuz you’re crammed way at the top in the back on a balcony above a crowd of people and everything is velvet.
    all i knew was she left and i went to my vest and it was gone. i went into a panic. we used the light from laura’s blackberry to illuminate the area and i was saying shit like “what the hell would she want with my fucking phone” and “her fucking mid-calf dickies with docs and a hoodie is super chewed” and “if she starts calling all my friends i’m gonna be so pissed” and “she’s a total dyke if she stole my phone”.

    anyway, then i found it.
    oh, and courtney is brilliant and messy and looks like tina yothers, so what?

  • at forumz sucks

    Kari is a poster on atforumz, which is located at atforumz dot com. She’s partially retarded and doesn’t like Tori Amos’ new album because she doesn’t understand it. Other users sharing this problem are Nancy, Troll Kollins, ebby, KV, Rinkyvs4.0, damienbp, coronaradiata, and Welcome2England. There are others. They are musically retarded, and don’t like music unless it portrays someone fat and ugly, like Amanda Palmer. These people are pathetic and like zoo animals. Screw you Kari. She’s also a terrible writer. Her blog is at myinflammatorywrit dot com. Clever pun, SKari. Makes “original sinsuality” sound like Voltaire. Oh, and screw you coronaradiata.

  • at forumz sucks

    I could go on and on about days for these retards. They talk shit about Tori Amos while posting in a forum up to 10,000 times per year about her, and they masturbate looking at her picture while proclaiming what a sell-out she is. Kari lives in New York City. Rinkyvs4.0 is a feminist dyke who thinks that a pretty woman is a betrayal to the feminist movement. These people hate that Tori Amos had modification because they don’t have any natural beauty to restore, like Tori amos. Also, rizzabella’s pussy bleeds and she lets cats lick it up.

  • at forumz sucks

    Kari is a failed playwright that lives in NYC. Her best friend is Alex, who is an embarassment to all gay men. Kari’s mediocre writing is overly reliant on adverbs, verbs, and other modifiers, and is comparable in quality to an advanced high school sophomore. She doesn’t understand why she can’t get anyone to buy one of her plays. She’s a retard. She also hates Tori Amos because, as a Revlon Red Head, tori doesn’t have the same pasty, nasty skin as SKari, nor cellulite. Kari idolizes Neko Case, a true firecrotch. What a loser.

  • at forumz sucks

    coronaradiata is pathetic. She’s an 18-year old poser who tries to gain favor among the Down’s Syndrome elite of @forumz by dissing Tori Amos on a forum started in her honor more than a decade ago. She uses word-for-word insults from “respect” users like SKari, Alex, and Nancy. She says things that are completely insulting. Also, there is a fake journalist among the bunch. His name is dollsb!tches. He worked in a call center prior to starting a gay website int he Netherlands. He succeeded since there was no competition, but writes like the computer transcription of a retarded parrot.

  • at forumz sucks

    Troll Kollins and ebby are quite the team. They consider themselves to be musically educated and superb, but idolize the music of Kate Bush, who was a complete flash in the pan and hasn’t released anything of note in nearly 25 years. Kate Bush is a relative to Amanda Palmer, who is obese, talentless, and dresses poorly. Kate bush is lazy and only got her record deal sleeping with Pink Floyd, hence the name Pink, like kate’s pu$$y. Ebby thinks Kate and Joni Mitchell are gold, and Tori Amos is a Madonna drag impersonator. Troll Kollins lives in a small town on the coast of Canada and knows absolutely nothing. They both have botox-induced lazy eye, though they pin that belief on Tori Amos.

  • at forumz sucks

    damienbp is a fucking poser like coronaradiata. Barely out of pampers and sitting in his South Florida trailer all day, he spends his time trying to gain favor & seem cool by dissing Tori Amos. He doesn’t speak English very well, sicne he immigrate to the US from cuba, like Elian Gonzales. He just wants to seem cool, and loves to insult Tori amos and everything about her. Welcome2England is even younger, just 15, and reportedly put a hit out on Tori’s daughter’s life, saying he hates her, and wants her to die. Like everyone else on @forumz, these people are pathetic. Pankeeeeeeeeke is another example. @forumz should be hacked, so if you are a hacker, then hack away. kari and rinky are having an abortion right now.

  • at forumz sucks

    JayPea is another fucking cunt. Fuck JayPea! She is a new user, and his immediately resorted to trash-talking Tori at every opportunity so as to seem cool. She is a graphic designer, and most of her designs look worse than Tori’s apparent surgery. worst yet, she’s patronizing. “TORI YOU LOOKED GOOD–WHY DID YOU FUCK WITH YOURSELF?” Bitch, Tori looked as tired as your pussy. These people, simply put, are mad because TORI LOOKS GOOD AND THEY DON’T!

  • at forumz sucks

    swirlygwen thinks she’s an expert on vocals and is a vocal coach. every singe 1 of that cunts posts talks about Tori’s vocals, critiquing them in some way, and being melodramatic and using frowny face emoticons. Start smiling gwen! why are you so sad that Tori’s prettier and talenteder than you? You are a pasty cellulite redhead like SKari and neko case, not pretty like Tori. Tori’s forehead is smooth, and her eyes are perf3ct.

  • someone with a life

    Hi, Robert!

    To those wondering what’s going on, Robert is a troll who can’t get over the fact that an Internet forum has banned him repeatedly for, well, trolling. He’s a blight on the Tori Amos fan community.

  • Willow

    Robert, if @forumz sucks and is such a horrible place full of people you hate, why do you keep obsessing over it?

  • Atforums sucks

    I just want to rriterate that kari et all only dislike AATS bc they don’t get it. They know noybi g about music. Ebby & troll kollins both make music that could make even Toris plastic fa’ce frown. Kari hates AATS because she’s intellectually incapable of understanding it.Rinky is trappeed in the 90s and likes giles from huffy thevampire slayer! What afucking dyke!

  • Atforums sucks

    Kari you make me f ing sick . Fuck u cunt. Stick your hand in my abortion hole. Steve had a fart attack fuckin fat asses can’t even hold their gas, laughing and singing at the same time you abortion cunt that blood pear ebby slut JAE and jaypea just shit talk tori cu cling. Slut los kkk

  • Atforums sucks

    O god and darkluna hates tori more than everyone, being in NYC especially he seems extra ugly and lacking style. Maris expensive shoe kollection can’t save her cellulitey thighs. Kari not Mari, stupid slut. She’s eating at wendys rightnow. Violentstar is a negativecunt and swirly can’t sing. She’s smoking a cig out of her vag

  • harms.20

    I actually like Tori Amos’s post-surgery music better than the earlier, pre-surgery stuff. I think she was too hung up on how special she thought she was before. Now she seems so much more professional, so much more aware of her audience, really more of a genuine artist. I’m not saying that plastic surgery made her that way, but i do think it’s more than a coincidence.

  • Atforums sucks

    That was some rant w2e. You must feel pretty cool being just 15 and alreadry singing the praises of @forums & hatred of tori . Your response was culd directly from the anals of ebbby’s abortion. Fuck you kari, your blog sucks.

  • at forumz sucks

    Simpley put, these ppl don’t understand AATS bc they know nothing about music. I mean 4 god’s sakes Kari likes Joanna Newsom’s screaming, and harp playing. The girl wo’nt make 10 albums! For instance, Kunti, fucking Kari (or Skari) did you know this? in the song Fast Horse “I think that Tori shows one of her numerous talents in this song that has rarely been discussed. I guess I would call it metric elision and expansion. It is common in folk music, that chord lengths are changed to suit the words,because we normally have one player and that person is singing. The performer can easily change the chord lengths or duration
    to suit the words, any time they wish. But Tori will remove beats in the middle of a bar,and in the middle of the phrase,to suit her lyrics, along with the end of a phrase. And she makes it flow and we love it. Its very difficult to make this type of elision sound natural, But she does it effortlessly. The challenge is for the rest of us, playing with her, to be just as effortless. LOL

  • at forumz sucks

    Seriously, all of u hate AATS because you want to seem cool by hating the album of a singer you dedicate your life to posting on her forum. You don’t even give the songs a chance. You claim to have liked Pele instantly (lie) and SW too (big lie) and fail to realize that you like those bc you’ve had a decade average to sit with them! You cant listen to something once and proclaim you hate it! Dismissiveness is the enemy of creativity, which is why all of your creative works suck, and you will never release 10 albums, and be loved by 1,000,000’s like Tori Amos. Educate yourselves about music and you will appreciate Tori! Oh and the slutty goth line is very clever, rinkyvs4.0, but I’m sure you’re too busy watching Buffy re-runs to get it. Feminist dyke cunt.


    Mancy tries to be so hip and goes around red dotting people as “Tori” because he thinks he so fucking clever. He’s even convinced the rest of the retard brigade to follow his example and good posters like Echinacea and AATS get red dotted over and over by Tori, Tash, Oscar and even Mark. Mancy just rides around on Nancy’s saggy vag flaps.


    BTW, Holly and Timm I know you’re ~*~*~in love~*~*~ but do you have to torture everyone with all the pictures? The pictures of where you go, what you eat and when you shit are really annoying. Post nudes or GTFO!

  • Ben

    I, too, was flummoxed when I saw Tori’s horribly butchered face, but then it kind of hit me – she has always been unhappy with her appearence, or at least that’s what I can gather from many of her songs, and her book, Piece by Piece.
    Yes, I was a bit saddened when I saw the change – but I think it had more to do with it being a very bad surgery than the act itself. Probably this makes me a shallow person, but I think that, if she looked um, BETTER, instead of butchered, I wouldn’t mind it at all.

  • Mary Queen of Scots

    As everyone can plainly see — all of these people, the posters of atforumz absolutely included, give REAL Tori fans a bad name. Tori must be horrified. And hopefully her security is good with all of these nutcases who follow her everywhere and insist on talking to her before each concert.

    Anyone feeling masochistic should look at these forums. The posters are TRULY crazy, paranoid and combative. Losers.

  • Former Moderator at @

    You know, it’s very difficult to control what people post on a message forum. It’s a sticky situation, because you want to encourage free speech and allow diverse opinions, yet many posters fly off the handle if they’re disagreed with, even mildly. Dealing with cyberstalkers impersonating our members, creating hate blogs, using proxy IPs to re-register at the forum countless times, hiding behind false personas, pretending to be polite for awhile, then acting the victim when they’re discovered and rightfully scorned by the members they proceed to insult so cruelly, is also difficult. Nobody is forcing anyone to read atforumz. I encourage those who dislike it to simply leave us alone.

  • Ben Sloan

    I was a long-time member of @, and these people are PSYCHOS. they stalked me all around the internet, bothered me, harrassed me and demeaned me. They are all a bunch of bullies who hide under the guise of being repressed or having some sort of injustice perpetrated against them. As the crazy poster mentioned above, the mods are all irrational, likely on meds, and terribly unwelcoming to new members and to old. People like Kari and Nancy are just as crazy in real life.

  • LAME

    Actually as a longtime fan who knows both Robert and the negative vibe of atforumz I find at to be smug superior than thou people who have NOTHING else better to do than to tear apart other fans and humans. It really amounts to crappy self esteem boosting of the ego to make them feel superior. Robert can be bitchy this is true but the reason why people get banned from that horrifically negative forum is because THEY DISAGREE WITH THE TONE AND ATTITUDE OF ENTITLEMENT on that forum.

    I do feel that most on at are spiritually bankrupt and sick. Why else does one have to be so negative and nasty??

  • sdyue

    does it really matter if we could love them?
    no, because even if we claim to ‘love’ (actually ‘just like’) them before surgery when they had that ‘take-me-as-I-am’, we all know we NEVER EVER (could) loved them before anyway, when they did look as ugly as ‘the F in WTF’.

  • Ambrose Mugwump

    Meh, I can take it from Tori, she has genuine talent – unlike Courtney Love who to my knowledge no-one does love or has ever loved.

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