Bette Midler has defended herself after she faced a wave of criticism for posting a tweet that many people perceived as transphobic.
On Monday, Midler tweeted, “WOMEN OF THE WORLD! We are being stripped of our rights over our bodies, our lives and even of our name! They don’t call us ‘women’ anymore; they call us ‘birthing people’ or ‘menstruators’, and even “people with vaginas”! Don’t let them erase you! Every human on earth owes you!”
That tweet prompted tens of thousands of replies. Many said Midler was falling for anti-trans arguments about the erasure of women. Others highlighted the importance of using language that’s more inclusive of trans and non-binary people.
Related: Bette Midler criticizes trans-friendly terms such as “birthing people”
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Yesterday, reacting to the furor, Midler tried to put her comments in a greater context. As suspected, she confirmed that she had been reacting to an opinion piece in the New York Times. Written by Pamela Paul, that article criticized the use of terms such as “birthing people” and “menstruators”.
Midler tweeted, “PEOPLE OF THE WORLD! My tweet about women was a response to this fascinating and well written piece in the NYT on July 3rd. https://tinyurl.com/2p9dw2th. There was no intention of anything exclusionary or transphobic in what I said; it wasn’t about that.”
She went on to say, “It was about the same old shit women – ALL WOMEN – have been putting up with since the cavemen. Even then, men got top billing. But seriously, folks, if anyone who read that tweet thinks I have anything but love for any marginalized people, go to Wikipedia and type in my name.
“I’ve fought for marginalized people for as long as I can remember. Still, if you want to dismiss my 60 years of proven love and concern over a tweet that accidentally angered the very people.
“I have always supported and adored, so be it. But the truth is, Democracy is slipping through our fingers! I’m all in on trying to save Democracy for ALL PEOPLE. We must unite, because, in case you haven’t been paying attention, divided we will definitely fall.”
Will Midler’s clarification dampen down the controversy? That’s unlikely. Many LGBTQ advocates have described the New York Times op-ed as transphobic and are dismayed that Midler praised it.
Bette, I’m the first transgender Native American elected to a state legislature in the US. People against trans women are using your tweet as proof that even liberals are against the trans community. If that isn’t the case, specifically say trans men and women are men and women
— Representative Stephanie Byers (@ByersForKansas) July 6, 2022
Bette, it’s important that you realize how harmful that article is to the trans community. As you have said, you have been a great ally for 60 years, but a part of being an ally is listening to those who you support when they say there is a hurtful take or language. Please listen
— Beth💜🖤🤍 (@AugustaWind11) July 6, 2022
Yes, I see your record. Yes, I believe you didn’t mean it to offend. But it DID offend. It hurt people, and this is basically putting the blame on them. This isn’t an apology to the people you hurt. People make mistakes; what shows your character is how you address them.
— Richard Veysey (@richardmv86) July 6, 2022
Related: Everyone needs to hear Bette Midler’s moving Kennedy Center honors speech
Macy Gray says she was “grossly misunderstood”
Midler wasn’t the only person backtracking on trans-related comments yesterday. Singer Macy Gray appeared on the British chat show, Piers Morgan Uncensored on Monday and waded into the gender debate.
Gray said to Morgan, “Everyone’s gonna hate me but as a woman, just because you go change your (body) parts, doesn’t make you a woman, sorry.”
Morgan replied, “Right, you feel that?”
To which Gray responded with, “I know that for a fact.” She added, “Being a little girl is a whole epic book, you know? And you can’t have that just because you want to be a woman.
“I don’t think you should be labeled transphobic just because you don’t agree.”
This earned praise from, among others, Harry Potter author JK Rowling, who tweeted, “Today feels like a good day to ensure I’ve bought @MacyGraysLife’s entire back catalogue 🔥”
Rowling included a screenshot of Gray responding to a well-known UK trans activist, India Willoughby, claiming she was only speaking the “truth”.
Today feels like a good day to ensure I’ve bought @MacyGraysLife’s entire back catalogue 🔥 pic.twitter.com/iIrPc9WvAQ
— J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) July 5, 2022
Yesterday, according to the Daily Mail, Gray tweeted and then deleted the following message: “I got nothing but love for lgbt+ and transgender communities. I’ve been a supporter since day one and never a fake one. my statement on piers morgan was GROSSLY misunderstood. i respect everyone’s right to be whoever they wana be.”
In another tweet replying to someone else, still online, Gray said, “I wasn’t defining trans women. just women. because i know what it means to be one. i don’t know what it means to be a trans woman and never said i did. but that goes both ways.”
mastik8
I believe and stand with both Bette and the trans community. We need to fight actual enemy, not each other.
Bosch
Yeah, this is exactly what the right wants: women, gays, and trans people, all fighting and excluding eachother.
We are weakened by this in-fighting.
mastik8
@Bosch – Agreed. We’re doing their work for them.
cuteguy
How can you say you stand with Bette and the trans community? It’s like saying you stand with the KKK and black ppl. Or you stand with Hitler and the Jews. Or you stand with Fox News and lgbtq. You cannot be two faced. Pick a side otherwise you sound fake
Bosch
@cuteguy I don’t think Bette knows what she was saying. She was spooked by an article that made it sound like society is trying to erase women. The article was formulated specifically to spread disguised anti-trans propaganda by scaring women.
No disrespect to the elderly, but they’re somewhat more susceptible to internet conspiracy.
tallskin4
The gall of men deciding what women are and telling women that men get to decide the definition of woman!
Clue guys: women don’t have penises.
And for the trans identified woman here, particularly those with a fetish for hanging around in gay male spaces: men don’t have vaginas
Even bigger clue for all you faith based gender woo-woo believers: you cannot change your sex.
Bosch
“you cannot change your sex.”
That’s why we call them transGENDER, not transSEXUAL.
There is no place in our society for women with penises or men with vaginas, as evidenced so eloquently by your comment, and that is why trans people feel compelled to transition the shape of their body to match their gender. They are trying to conform to the rigidity of a 2-gender system.
So really, your transphobia will only create more of them.
Bosch
“And for the trans identified woman here, particularly those with a fetish for hanging around in gay male spaces: men don’t have vaginas*
Wait, aren’t you supposed to be standing up for women’s rights here? You think of trans-men as women, so clearly your comment is misogynistic.
abfab
This 4skin git remindes me of Andrew Sullivan. Quite annoying.
Cam
Your obsession with posting on every single post on multiple sites related to trangendered people seems to indicate you may be a self hating closeted trans person and hate the ones who are out.
DarkZephyr
tallskin4, all you ever have to say are horrible, nasty, bigoted things. Crawl back to your Anti-Trans TERF overlords. You aren’t one of us.
tallskin4
“DarkZephyr- tallskin4, all you ever have to say are horrible, nasty, bigoted things. Crawl back to your Anti-Trans TERF overlords. You aren’t one of us.”
Oh? Who made you class monitor?
Bosch
Bette is afraid that women are under attack. Trans people are afraid that trans people are under attack.
Coincidentally, the only ones attacking these two groups are the conservative right.
LumpyPillows
If you can’t see how arrogant this cancel culture mob is and how it hurts trans people and the left, your are in denial. The right loves it. Keep defending this nonsense and see how women and trans people really lose. Birthing people, people who menstrate…it’s infuriatingly arrogant. And you don’t get it.
Interestingly, no one tweeting I’m this article seems to be trans. Wonder why?
Cam
@LumpyPillows
Sweetie, when you use the terms “Cancel Culture” and “The Left”, you just expose that you’re the right wing troll.
Thank you for making it so easy.
Bosch
“Birthing people, people who menstrate…it’s infuriatingly arrogant. And you don’t get it.”
“People who menstruate” refers specifically to women and trans-men who have a uterus and who have not hit menopause. It’s meant for medical context, not for everyday conversation.
Explain to me where the arrogance is.
LumpyPillows
Poor cam, you know better. Either address the topic or shut your trap.
inbama
@Cam
Seriously, troll?
You never heard of “the center?”
It’s because of extremists like you and DeSantis that this country is falling apart.
MystiRivers
Good for Bette. She said nothing wrong.
tallskin4
Exactly!
Bosch
Bette pretended that people are trying to destroy the word “woman”, which is nonsense.
She’s not a bad person for falling for it, and she’s not a transphobe.
But her comments are certainly being used by transphobes to perpetuate transphobia, aren’t they, pystirivers and tallskinhead?
tallskin4
Bosch says: “There is no place in our society for women with penises or men with vaginas,”
Indeed. There is no place in any society on the globe for women with penises or men with vaginas and that’s cos it’s not real.
This fantastic nonsense started in US universities (thanks yanky doodle dandy gender study depts!) and has spread like cultural imperialism around the world
Bosch
Tallskinhead, I know that I explained to you the biology behind a trans person’s brain. You clearly don’t understand how to apply scientific information.
“This fantastic nonsense started in US universities (thanks yanky doodle dandy gender study depts!)”
Tell us you’ve never seen the inside of a university, without telling us you’ve never seen the inside of a university. “Gender studies” isn’t about trans people.
Bosch
In the UK, “Trans people have been able to change their passports and driving licences to indicate their preferred binary gender since at least 1970.”
Looks to me like it’s British imperialism spreading to the US.
GlobeTrotter
At the core of this argument is a tiny subset of the population holding on to the delusion that sex and gender are social constructs totally amenable to our whim and mood. So by this logic anyone has the ability to become anything purely by the process of self-declaration. And anyone who dare point out the irrationality of this argument or threaten to burst the bubble of delusion trans activists have ensconced around them, is tarred, feathered, labeled transphobic and promptly cancelled. What we’re dealing with here is a subset of society deathly afraid of being forced to give up their comfy delusions and return to the harsh realities of this world, namely that despite all their wishing and hoping, they can never truly become the opposite sex. Being reminded of this is a very uncomfortable reality that they do NOT want to face, hence the lie that transmen are men and that transwomen are women, not to mention the phenomenon of “pregnant men”.
But living a delusion is even worse for one’s mental health than having to face an uncomfortable reality. Even worse is when delusional individuals also have real power, such as the modern trans-activists and their allies in academia and corporate America. Then the rest of us are forced to accept and play along with their delusions and to believe that which we know to be demonstrably and verifiably true. The entire society is then held hostage to a lie…welcome to twenty-first century America!
Bosch
“At the core of this argument is a tiny subset of the population holding on to the delusion that sex and gender are social constructs totally amenable to our whim and mood.”
No, no one thinks “sex” is a social construct. And since gender refers to psychological and behavioural traits, no one who uses the word correctly thinks that gender is physical.
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “No, no one thinks ‘sex’ is a social construct.” – I have seen interviews from various trans-activists that would beg to differ!
In one instance, a trans-activist explained that when babies are born, doctors make a “guess” regarding their sex (not gender!). Many times the doctors get it right, but sometimes they’re wrong, and in those instances, the child becomes transgender.
In another film, a trans-activist, this time a doctor, explained that when children are born, we don’t know their sex. We have to wait to see how they CHOOSE to express themselves. By this logic, a baby boy is NOT boy, neither is a baby girl a girl, not until the child decides on its own identity, which it then announces to the world. The doctor also went on to say that if a person is pregnant, we assume this person is a female, but we can’t know for sure.
In another interview a couple has decided to raise their child completely without gender. They proudly declared that they have no idea if their child is male or female, and that they are respectfully waiting for it (the child) to choose for itself. Until then, it is being raised as a genderless individual.
Bosch
Ah well, when I said “no one”, I meant “no one normal”.
But you’re judging the trans community by their dumbest members. And you’re judging the trans community by the stupidly of some straight couple.
When people judge us by the stupidest gay men, you know that’s inaccurate.
When we judge Americans by the people on Jimmy Kimmel who can’t even point out their own country on a map, that’s inaccurate.
So who benefits from us judging all trans people by their dumbest community members? The ones who want our community to weaken itself with in-fighting, that’s who.
Bosch
Can you somehow point me towards that video of the doctor saying we don’t know a child’s sex at birth? Like a title, or a name?
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “So who benefits from us judging all trans people by their dumbest community members?”
Well, I wouldn’t exactly call a doctor a dumb member of the community. Doctors are individuals with great legal and medical authority.
I can’t remember all the videos I’ve seen, truth be told I just clicked on whatever YouTube recommended, but the content and viewpoints of the transactivists were pretty alarming. You can start with a search for “gender neutral family”. As for the doctor, all I remember is that she was a pediatrician who specializes in trans children and gender identity.
Bosch
“Well, I wouldn’t exactly call a doctor a dumb member of the community”
Sorry, but a doctor who doesn’t know the difference between sex and gender IS a dumb member of all communities they belong to.
Bosch
Well the only videos I can find of pediatricians saying things like you describe, are videos discussing why we shouldn’t operate on intersex children.
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “Sorry, but a doctor who doesn’t know the difference between sex and gender IS a dumb member of all communities they belong to.”
But that’s precisely my point! We’re dealing with a subset of society that has turned their back on verifiable, scientific facts and have chosen to live inside a bubble of ideological delusion. They hate facts because facts contradict their ideology, which has become indistinguishable from their identity. And in order for their ideology to work, they first had to destroy science and reality and then embrace relativism, i.e. that paradigm that allows everyone to have their own truth and their own reality. That’s why they frequently declare that everyone has their “own truth”, and that if you believe it, then it’s real.
GlobeTrotter
Found it! It’s a 7 minute 12 seconds long interview with a pediatrician by the name of Dr. Forcier. You can’t post links on Queerty, but just do a youtube search.
Bosch
I must have the wrong video, because she is using the word “gender”, not “sex”. Do you have a title for me?
Bosch
Globe, you seem to have misremembered. She uses the words “gender”, “gender-identity”, “male-identified”, etc. She only says “sex” when referring to the reproductive system.
Your misinterpretation is what led you to believe people are trying to break the sex dichotomy.
Bosch
“We’re dealing with a subset of society that has turned their back on verifiable, scientific facts”
It is a verifiable, scientific fact that trans-women have physically female brains before transitioning, and trans-men have physically male brains before transitioning. Do you turn your back on this? I believe we are our brains, and our bodies are vehicles. Do you disagree?
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “Your misinterpretation is what led you to believe people are trying to break the sex dichotomy.”
I went back and watched the video, and my observations at the time are spot on. Here’s the transcript from the relevant part of the video:
Interviewer: “When the doctor sees a penis and says this has a sex of male, this has a sex of male, is that an arbitrary distinction?”
Dr. Forcier: “Telling that family based on that little penis that your child is absolutely 100% male identified, no matter what else occurs in their life, that’s not correct”
Interviewer: “Male gametes, that’s what makes me male”
Dr. Forcier: “NO, your sperm don’t make you male”
Interviewer: “Then what does?”
Dr. Forcier: “It’s a constellation”
Interviewer: “In reality? In Truth?”
Dr. Forcier: “Whose Truth are we talking about”
Interviewer: “The same truth that says we’re sitting in this room right now”
Dr. Forcier: “No, you’re not listening”
Interviewer: “If I see a chicken laying eggs and I say that’s a female chicken laying eggs, did I assign female or am I just observing a physical reality that’s happening in the world?”
Dr. Forcier: “Does a chicken have gender identity? Does a chicken cry? Does a chicken commit suicide? A chicken has an assigned gender, but a chicken doesn’t have a gender identity.”
Interviewer: “So we assign female to chickens when they lay eggs?”
Dr. Forcier: “We assume they’re female if they lay eggs”
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “It is a verifiable, scientific fact that trans-women have physically female brains before transitioning, and trans-men have physically male brains before transitioning. Do you turn your back on this? I believe we are our brains, and our bodies are vehicles. Do you disagree?”
I talked about this in a post below. Do trans brains make trans individuals, or do trans individuals make trans brains? Without a group of “control brains”, this study means very little.
Bosch
” Analysis of 157 polymorphisms located at the estrogen receptor coactivators SRC-1, SRC-2, and SRC-3, in 94 transgender versus 94 cisgender individuals.”
You should read a study before criticizing it.
Bosch
Globetrotter, let’s examine the “proof” you have.
She says: “Telling that family based on that little penis that your child is absolutely 100% male identified, no matter what else occurs in their life, that’s not correct”
Note that she saus male IDENTIFIED. She is talking about gender identification. She’s saying that your sex will not determine your gender.
She says ““NO, your sperm don’t make you male”, in a conversation about identification. As in, your sex does not determine your gender.
I don’t know why you have trouble understanding it, and I don’t know why you’re trying to make it sound like she doesn’t know the difference between sex and gender.
Why is it so important to you to make this doctor sound delusional? Her whole point is that your gender identity is not tied to reproductive system, and with what we know about the trans brain, we have physical evidence.
But you’re not having this conversation because you want to know more. You’re having this conversation because you’re looking for a way to justify your opinion about trans people.
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “She says ‘NO, your sperm don’t make you male’, in a conversation about identification. As in, your sex does not determine your gender.”
Maybe you’re the one having the conversation about “identification”, but the interviewer CLEARLY asked her questions relating to BIOLOGY, and not identity. In every single question, the doctor was asked about immutable biological traits, i.e. male GAMETES, chicken laying eggs, a PENIS, etc, and each time she answered that these biological traits are subjective, thereby turning her back on hundreds of thousands of years of biological, scientific and empirical reality.
Bosch
Yes globe, the interviewer is asking about gametes, in a conversation about identification. I don’t know why you have trouble reading, you even posted the conversation yourself, and everyone can see it. That you misinterpret things is your problem.
I watched the video too, I don’t see why you think you can lie to me about it.
Bosch
“In every single question, the doctor was asked about immutable biological traits”
Here, let me simplify the conversation for you:
Interviewer: “Do these physical characteristics decide gender?”
Dr.: “No.”
Is that easy enough? Or should I simplify it more?
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “Yes globe, the interviewer is asking about gametes, in a conversation about identification.”
No, the conversation AS INITIATED by the interviewer was SOLELY about biological sex. Maybe the reason you saw a conversation about identity is because you want it to be about a conversation about identity. But the interviewer, a conservative journalist, was conducting an interview about biological sex, which is why he presented questions pertaining to biological sex (gametes, penis, eggs, etc).
“Interviewer: ‘Do these physical characteristics decide gender?'”
This line doesn’t appear anywhere in the transcript of the interview.
Bosch
The subject is trans-identification and the meaning of “woman”, with pediatrician who specialises in trans-identified children, but according to you the interview is about biological sex only?
Do we need to go over this again?
Interviewer: “When the doctor sees a penis and says this has a sex of male, this has a sex of male, is that an arbitrary distinction?”
Dr. Forcier: “Telling that family based on that little penis that your child is absolutely 100% male identified, no matter what else occurs in their life, that’s not correct”
Do you not understand what “male-identified” means?
Are you doing this on purpose? I’m out. Bye.
GlobeTrotter
For the last time, the interviewer was asking the doctor about BIOLOGICAL SEX…it says so right there in the quote you cited:
“Interviewer: “When the doctor sees a PENIS and says this has a SEX OF MALE, this has a sex of male, is that an ARBITRARY distinction?”
I’m not sure how anyone hearing the above question could conclude that the interviewer is asking about gender identity, when it’s clear that he’s referring to physical, immutable biology.
“I’m out. Bye.”
Perhaps the most intelligent thing you’ve written so far. Bye!
Bosch
OMFG globe.
He asks of it’s an arbitrary distinction.
She responds that it’s arbitrary in terms of gender identification.
What the hell is wrong with you?
GlobeTrotter
Wait, you’re still here??? I thought you’d had enough and left?
“He asks of it’s an arbitrary distinction.”
He asked if biological sex is an arbitrary distinction, quite in line with the subject of his interview “what is a woman”.
Bosch
Yes globe. He asks if sex characteristics are important. She answers that they are not important to gender-identification.
I really don’t understand why you’re having so much trouble with this. And then you try pretend I’m stupid. Ha.
GlobeTrotter
“And then you try pretend I’m stupid. Ha.”
There you go again putting words into my mouth. Although flattered by your obsession with me, I do think you should at the very least try to be honest in your accusations.
Bosch
“There you go again putting words into my mouth.”
Mhm. After two hours of trying to have a proper conversation with you:
“”I’m out. Bye.” Perhaps the most intelligent thing you’ve written so far”
Memory problems?
Bosch
“Although flattered by your obsession with me,”
Oh god. Don’t get your insults from SamB, they’re no good.
Eternal.Cowboy
“thereby turning her back on hundreds of thousands of years of biological, scientific and empirical reality.”
Well Globetrotter if you ever wanted to announce that you have no clue what you are talking about then that was it!! The earliest roots of scientific endeavor were 3000 bce in Egypt. That was a little over 5000 years. The scientific revolution, the creation of science the scientific method and science as we currently understand and practice it, happened in the mid 1500s. That is less than 500 years. The breakout of biology as a separate field didn’t happen until the 1700s.
So your statement about hundred thousand years of scientific endeavor is either something you simply made up or it’s indication of just how woefully misinformed you are. Neither option is partially helpful to you credibility.
Further, your statement indicates that you see science as immutable. That is the exact opposite of what science is. Science isn’t dogma, it adjusts and corrects as we learn more. So the entirety of what we know or think we know can be upended as we learn more. So the idea of dropping an idea that has persisted over time is completely consistent with science.
tallskin4
Bosch says: “I know that I explained to you the biology behind a trans person’s brain. You clearly don’t understand how to apply scientific information.”
That’s cos it’s pseudo scientific b)llocks mate. You don’t get to make up new biology and decide, just to appease blokes with an Autogyniphilic sexual kink, that a billion years of clear distinction between the sexes is suddenly wrong!
Bosch
Tallskinhead, physically measurable proteins are not “pseudo scientific”. You’re an idiot.
Bosch
Hmmm, you misspell “Autogyniphilic” the same way that london-resistance misspells it. How suspicious.
Bosch
And you also reply in entirely new threads, the same way that london-resistance does…. Uh oh! Looks like you’re pulling a Marcy!
LumpyPillows
Bosch, where is the medical evidence on this brain issue you seem intent on believing? Not just some anecdotal document from an activist PhD, but a real, peer reviewed study. I’d love to read it, but it does not exist. Everyone’s brain is different. The only thing this might prove is the cause of being trans. Not an excuse to call a trans woman a woman.
But really, so what? If you transition your body, you’re trans. You are no longer a man or woman, you are trans. You are different. So what? Be trans. You don’t get to redefine men and women, who are already wildly diverse.
Bosch
All published PhD studies are peer reviewed, unless otherwise specified. I wouldn’t know which one to give you, because there are hundreds. Studies that specifically examine the saturation of estrogen signalling pathways and estrogen receptor coactivators in the brain, studies that attempt to uncover whether the sex of the brain is controlled by genes or by prenatal hormones… The European Society of Endocrinology has some publicly available abstracts, but I don’t know how much you can see without JSTOR.
“You don’t get to redefine men and women, who are already wildly diverse.”
The terms that Bette Middler brought up are not redefining women. They describe a different set of people: “pregnant women” describes women who are pregnant, “pregnant people” describes women and trans-men who are pregnant. Nothing is being rewritten.
Bosch
@Lumpy try “Implications of the Estrogen Receptor Coactivators SRC1 and SRC2 in the Biological Basis of Gender Incongruence”. This one attempts to find the reason that trans brains more closely resemble the host’s gender identity.
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “‘Implications of the Estrogen Receptor Coactivators SRC1 and SRC2 in the Biological Basis of Gender Incongruence'”
These “studies” mean nothing without “control” brains for comparison. Do trans brains more closely resemble their hosts’ gender identity because they were wired in the womb to do so, or did they become that way because of their hosts’ chosen behavior? In other words, do trans brains make trans individuals or do trans individuals make trans brains?
Bosch
@globe
All the studies that involve determining IF trans brains are different have control groups of cis brains. This study wasn’t looking at IF, but at WHY. Do I need to post other studies for you?
But let me get this straight; you’re asking whether trans children are changing the sex of their brain through the power of thought? You think acting like a girl is going to change the sex of your brain?
I’m getting suspicious now; I caught you in a lie about that pediatrician, and now you’re looking for other ways to debunk me. I should warn you, I’m a neuroscientist. If you want to beat me in an argument, make it about something like sports or cars or star wars movies.
Bosch
“Do trans brains more closely resemble their hosts’ gender identity because they were wired in the womb to do so,”
That’s exactly what the study you’re badmouthing is trying to determine.
Bosch
@Globe
” Analysis of 157 polymorphisms located at the estrogen receptor coactivators SRC-1, SRC-2, and SRC-3, in 94 transgender versus 94 cisgender individuals.”
There’s your control group.
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “But let me get this straight; you’re asking whether trans children are changing the sex of their brain through the power of thought? You think acting like a girl is going to change the sex of your brain?”
I’m not implying anything. I’m simply applying a series of rational test questions to rule out certain probabilities.
I took a look at the publicly available abstract of one of the studies you quoted, but even that study doesn’t come to any definitive conclusions. All it says in a nutshell is that “the coactivators SRC-1 and SRC-2 COULD BE considered as candidates for increasing the list of potential genes for gender incongruence.” This is far from reaching any definitive conclusions on the characteristics of trans brains.
Bosch
“This is far from reaching any definitive conclusions on the characteristics of trans brains.”
This study was not trying to outline chatactestics of the trans brain. It was looking at WHY trans brains have different characteristics. In the study, they found candidates for why. But in scientific research, things need to be tested over and over again.
They weren’t looking for proof that trans brains are different, because they already knew trans brains were different. Otherwise, how would they know what to emasure against? How would the trans group differ at all from the control group?
Now you’re going so far as to pretend scientific research is faulty, just because you need to justify your opinion on trans people. Literally turning your back on science.
Bosch
This is going to be a very long back-and-forth if I keep giving you science and you keep disagreeing based on your feelings. How about you find some scientific proof that trans people do not have distinguishable brains?
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “Now you’re going so far as to pretend scientific research is faulty, just because you need to justify your opinion on trans people.”
I did no such thing, and I’d ask that you please refrain from putting YOUR words in MY mouth! I simply observed that the results from the study were far from conclusive. That’s it! I rendered no further judgment regarding its quality or validity.
Bosch
Yeah, you said it was inconclusive about something it wasn’t trying to prove. You incorrectly suggested it had no control group. You called it a “study” instead of a study.
You wanna talk about putting words in someone’s mouth? Why don’t you misrepresent what the pediatrician says in that interview again?
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: I said it was inconclusive based on the abstract that I read. You need a password to read the entire study.
I also never suggested that it had no control group, I simply QUESTIONED whether it did.
Why is it so important to you to paint me in such a negative light? I don’t know you and I’m not your enemy!
LumpyPillows
So, here’s the conclusion of that study:
Conclusion: The coactivators SRC-1 and SRC-2 could be considered as candidates for increasing the list of potential genes for gender incongruence. Ramírez KDV, Fernández R, Delgado-Zayas E, et al. Implications of the Estrogen Receptor Coactivators SRC1 and SRC2 in the Biological Basis of Gender Incongruence. Sex Med 2021;9:100368.
Does not seem definitive to me. Let’s say they actually proved estrogen made people trans. They are still trans. But, really, we need more research into this topic.
Diplomat
Trans brains gay brains bi brains str8 brains all function differently on the sexual level.
Bosch is accurate in that trans women have female brains and a male body. To say that’s pseudo science is like a str8 person telling a gay person they are really straight. Total ignorance as LGB well know.
So if you don’t want to be pegged a right wing extremist, give Bosch a break. Some people are thinking trans is some big conspiracy. Very odd. Does any of this deter how I feel about their sexual language? No. That needs serious work.
Me2
As long as trans activists keep making unrealistic demands of everyone to appease them and wholly accept their assertions, the divide will continue, at the cost of elections. Bullying people into silence isn’t acceptance, as most voters don’t consider trans issues when at the ballot box and will express their frustration in the booth.
still_onthemark
Is it even trans activists making the unrealistic demands, though?
Mister P
We need to make a place in this world for everyone.
LumpyPillows
Trans people are trans people. They are not men or women. We may treat them as such, but there are meaningful differences. They are trans men and trans women. Lets define them and not redefine men and women. What is so wrong with calling them what they are and not forcing people go call them something they clearly are not – in the real world. Not in the made up fantasy world invented in some safe space in a privileged, rich, white university by a screwed up, angry, pseudo intellectual, straight girl with green hair?
This entire fixation of looney social engineers is the left’s version of incels. Freakishly unbalanced.
Bosch
Lumpy, I think this is a symptom of the problem that people want to call trans-men women, and trans-women men.
There is neurological evidence that a trans-woman, while having male reproductive organs, and thus also male secondary sex characteristics, will have a physically female brain.
So the brain is a woman, and the genitals are of a man. Do you think that the essence of that person resides in the brain, or in the genitals?
I am of the opinion that the body is just a vehicle, and that we are our brains. But I understand that some will prefer to view us as the body, and the brain as some abstract invisible thing.
LumpyPillows
I get it. I fully support trans people. Most of us do. What we reject is ignoring that they are trans by declaring trans women women. Are their brains different? So what? There is evidence gay brains are different than straight brains in some studies, but people hate that now that they declare sexuality to be fluid, so it can’t be as rigid as your brain… Lots of talking in circles
They still aren’t women. Why can’t you people admit the differences are real? It drives you to say ignorantly demeaning things like birthing person, or people who menstruate. What’s next, people who ejaculate? This stubborn refusal to admit reality is really pissing people off, and it won’t end well.
GlobeTrotter
“What’s next, people who ejaculate?”
Hahaha…that one had me rolling. I can just see the government forms we’ll have to fill out in future:
“I am a person who (please check one):
-menstruates
-ejaculates
-neither
-both”
Bosch
Don’t worry, I know that sexual orientation is also a physical configuration. Measurable in the hypothalamus and unchangeable.
Trans brains aren’t just “different”. Trans-women have physically female brains. Trans-men have physically male brains.
You pretend to understand, yet you praise mystirivers’ essay where she suggests transgenderism is a delusion, based on “feelings” and “souls”. I’m not falling for it, Lump.
LumpyPillows
Bosch, I think we actually agree on most of this. What it comes down to, for me, is that I respect trans people as trans people. I do not have to make them into men or women. I think the people who demand we say trans women are women don’t actually respect them. They want them to be something they actually aren’t, something they are more comfortable with. Get into this box!
Women, in my mind, get rightfully upset when someone who has not lived their truth claims to be a woman. I think many trans women would also agree that their journey, their truth, is unique to them. They are not the same. It is political activists that are driving this, for many bad reasons, most of which are ultimately harmful.
Bosch
You’ve given me quite a paradox. It’s true that saying they’re women is only reinforcing the 2-gender paradigm. The whole reason they’re compelled to transition is to fit into the 2-gender system.
But the transphibes aren’t trying to call trans-women trans-women, they’re trying to call trans-women men. And they’re trying to treat trans-women like men. And that is way less accurate than treating them like women.
So in a 2-gender system, trans-women are women.
We can solve that by expanding the number of accepted genders, but I’m sure you’ve seen where that leads…
LumpyPillows
Bosch, we do agree. It is easier to defend trans women as trans women. They exists. Don’t like it? Too bad – free country. It’s when we declare them women we get put on the defensive and it puts us in quicksand
Calling a trans woman a man is just being cruel. That is a battle we can fight and win, but that is not the battle we are fighting because we are stubborn. We need to address trans health care, safety and discrimination…but we are stuck in a losing battle pitting trans women against women – right where the right-wing wants us.
Bosch
“but we are stuck in a losing battle pitting trans women against women”
No, it’s not us who convinced women that trans-women are coming for them. It wasn’t us who wrote the article that scared Bette.
Of course, there are “gender warriors” all over Twitter; narcissism is twitter’s business model. But most of them exist only in the minds of conservatives. As proof, I submit to you the message from inbama under the other article, where he suggests we now have 70 genders and boys becoming eunuchs. Or even this guy here who repeatedly misrepresented the words of a doctor to make it sound like the “left” thinks sex is subjective. Do they believe these things? And how are these things less “looney” than what the left believes?
These lies are the artillery of the war. And these lies are much larger than whether we see “woman” as a physical descriptor or a social descriptor.
Cam
Hmmm, @Mario didn’t post on this, and you KNOW that screename ALWAYS comes in raging on any trans related post.
BUT….Lumpy Pillows and Tallskin posted multiple times using the same wording Mario uses.
LOL!!
As always your trolling is sad and weak.
abfab
Lady Lumpy loves playing BINGO!
Bosch
I think mario is having a tough time trying to figure out which poll about biden relates to bette midler.
Kangol2
It looks like Bosch unmasked TallSkin4, with his Andrew Sullivan-esque avatar, as someone posting under another name. The trolls always do this.
And to whoever recalled that Mario/James Hart was also Marcy (and what was the other name?), bravo! BTW, where is Mario/Marcy/James Hart, who as “Marcy” claimed to be trans? They popped up, under numerous names, to rage away, then vanished (because Queerty clamped down on their nonsense?).
Did the Ron DeSantis cheerleader finally realize how anti-LGBTQ DeSantis and the GQP really are?
LumpyPillows
Except that I’m usually arguing with Mario. Give it a rest you self-important nitwit
jackscott
There is nothing wrong with what Bette or Macy indicated. People need to realize that their are different views. Plus, gender is specific and each male/female body does go through changes. Therefore, even if you have surgery there are still things those that transitioned will never experience as if they were born a different gender.
Bosch
What Bette indicated is that people are trying to erase women in favour of trans people. There is something wrong with that: it’s incorrect.
An article she read has spooked her. And that’s the whole purpose of that article: to make women and trans people into enemies.
MystiRivers
Pay attention to the specific language the gender ideologists use. For example, the notion of “your sex assigned at birth” rather than just “your sex.” The latter is a statement of empirical fact rooted in basic anatomy. In the vast majority of births, the sex of a baby is indisputable.
But the gender ideologists argument is based not on science and empiricism but power and control. Thus their preferred formulation “sex assigned at birth” – notice the linguistic change whereas sex is not a naturally occurring, empirically visible feature but something which an outside force (a doctor typically but also the medical establishment and/or society at large) “assigns” a person – thereby at the very start questioning the power relations by which some physical bodies are defined as “male” and others as “female.” If we can assert that male and female bodies are simply manufactured entities that reflect existing a normative standard of gender dichotomy, then it becomes easier for the gender ideologists to entirely deconstruct the notion of the existence of physically sexed bodies – that is, that “sex assigned at birth” may or may not be what you want it to be, that the physically sexed body is a site of power contestation, and that a liberatory struggle over ownership of one’s own identity requires a radical deconstruction of the sex/gender binary that renders all sexed distinctions moot.
And it is THIS rendering of any kind of meaningful differentiation in the lived experiences of biological women born into observably sexed bodies that J.K. Rowling, Bette Midler and others are defending. Not that biological women who identify as women are superior to those who may not be biological women but who identify as women; just that they have different life experiences based on how society has treated them based on the physical reality of their bodies.
Bosch
Mystirivers, “sex assigned at birth” is worded this way because of intersex babies, not because if trans people.
“The sex assignment at birth usually aligns with a child’s anatomical sex and phenotype.”
Try again.
abfab
”But the gender ideologists argument is based not on science and empiricism but power and control.” Misty, it sounds like you are the one who wants to control. How controlling. Good luck with that.
LumpyPillows
Misti, nice thoughts. You can’t expect the gender trolls to even begin to try and understand what you said. They just attack like rabid dogs. Why? I have no idea. Perhaps it is because it really feds into the right’s legitimate position that the left has gone nuts and is dangerous.
MystiRivers
In contrast to the effort to destabilize the empirical reality of physically sexed bodies as “male” or “female,” the gender ideologists take an essentialist view of gender identity. Gender is often understood as all of the different ways a person can express themself as “masculine” or “feminine” – or neither or both. In the 1970s and 80s, the feminist movement taught us that both biological women and men need not be constrained by existing gender roles – that women can embrace sterotypical “masculine” behavior, traits and appearances and men can do the same for traditionally “feminine” aspects. People can and do live on a spectrum of different aspects of masculinity and femininity.
But the gender ideologists now use gender in a different way – as an interior state almost akin to a “soul” that reflects their true inner state of self and identity. In opposition to the idea of “sex assigned at birth” which theorizes the physical body as a site where agents of power (medical, familial, the state, etc) impose a specific dichotomous characterization (male/female), the gender ideologist asserts that this enforced sexed body must be resisted and deconstructed in order to allow for the assertion of one’s “true” gendered self as a man or woman. In this way, the physical body itself is an inconvenient shell; the specific sexual organs themselves redefined in such a way to comport with the person’s “true” gendered self. Hence, you have assertions that “men can get pregnant” and “women can have penises.”
Again the goal is to first start with the assumption that the empirically visible and physical body itself reflects existing power relations in society having to do with a presumed sexual binary; secondly, assert the unobservable “soul” of gender identity over the primacy of the physical body as a way to define distinctions between biological males and females; and thirdly by doing so, eliminate the meaningfulness of what it means to be a “man” or a “woman” in society in ways that obliterate the lived experiences of women born as biological women (or men born as biological men).
abfab
Impressive and boring all at once. Celebrate Diverstiy just for one day.
Bosch
“as an interior state almost akin to a “soul” that reflects their true inner state of self and identity.”
I’ve posted numerous times about the physical characteristics of the trans brain. Get out of here with your “soul” bullcrap.
MystiRivers
Finally, the gender ideologists need to put their theory into practice. If a person’s gender identity (their unobservable “soul”) takes precedence over the physically sexed body (at best, an inconvenient “shell”) then it stands to reason that in order to ensure that gender and sex align, one must seek to change this physical reality – not just in words and language but physicality itself.
Thus, this is why, at the first outward sign of any discordance of a child’s or adult’s gender identity or expressions with their physical body that engenders (no pun intended) the slightest distress or discomfort, the first and immediate impulse is to alter the physical outward appearance of the person (e.g., clothes, hair styles, any other physical gendered cues). But then not stop at these physical adornments but to then change the actual nature of the physically sexed body itself, to physically re-shape the body. This can take the form of hormones (e.g., puberty blockers) in children in order to halt or delay physiological changes to the body itself and/or surgery to physically remove and/or append parts of the body to comport with one’s gender identity (e.g., “top surgery” to remove breasts; “bottom surgery” to remove or add a fascimile penis). Again, in accordance with the gender ideologists view of power, the physical body itself is a site of social power, contestation and control; it is entirely manipulable in order to make it conform to whatever is considered to be the “true” gendered self.
Taken to its logical extreme, pre-adolescent homosexual boys who exhibit stereotypically “feminine” behaviors (e.g., lack of interest in team sports, interest in reading or playing with dolls or exhibiting kindness) may find adults showing concern over whether they are actually trans girls “trapped” in the “wrong” physically sexed bodies. Similarly, what we used to consider “tomboyish” girls who exhibited stereotypically “masculine” traits (interest in sports, rough housing, lack of interest in clothes or make up) may find themselves questioning (or pressured into questioning) whether they are “really” men and perhaps should seek hormone therapy to suppress budding breasts or later as adults the complete removal of parts of their anatomy.
In this way, we see not only the potential erasure of “women” as a distinct biological and social category but also the potential erasure of gay boys and men, and lesbian girls and women, who otherwise would likely grow up to be healthy gay men and lesbian women comfortable in their physical bodies. In its goal of identifying, contesting and deconstructing the power relations of the physical gender binary, the gender ideologist has as their goal a new power dynamic that asserts the primacy of subjective gender identity in which language and physical bodies themselves are subsumed and subservient to the free-floating “soul” of gender, with its refusal to be tethered or anchored to any physical reality. This is an ideology which, by its very nature, is immune to empirical or scientific investigation and efforts to bring scientific concepts such as biology into the discussion are deemed, by definition, “anti-trans.”
Bosch
“If a person’s gender identity (their unobservable “soul”) takes precedence over the physically sexed body”
Again with this soul nonsense. I’ll say it very shortly:
We believe that the PHYSICAL SEX of a person’s brain should take precedence over the PHYSICAL SEX of their reproductive system.
If you have a physically female brain and a physically male reproductive system, what are you? Are you female because of your brain? Or are you male because of your genitals?
I think the person is the brain. But you guys seem to think the person is the genitals, which explains why you’re all a bunch of dicks.
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “But you guys seem to think the person is the genitals, which explains why you’re all a bunch of dicks.”
Why the insults? If you have something intelligent and rational to say, then allow your arguments to speak for themselves. Resorting to insults only gives the impression that you have nothing of real value to contribute, in other words, complete irrelevance.
Bosch
@Globe
Hmmmm… It’s almost like you feel addressed by my insult to mystiriver. Praytell, why is that? It was clearly directed at transphobes. You’re not a transphobe, are you?
GlobeTrotter
Well, yes, I do feel addressed. Incivility anywhere is an affront to decent people everywhere. Either we’re intelligent people who can peacefully work out our differences or we’re brute savages who have no choice but to find solutions through the use of violence.
Bosch
Violence, globe?
You know what’s uncivil? Repeatedly lying about what a pediatrician, professor, and assistant dean says in an interview, just to make her sound dumb and delusional.
She a goddamn medical doctor: she knows what she’s talking about.
GlobeTrotter
“You know what’s uncivil? Repeatedly lying about what a pediatrician, professor, and assistant dean says in an interview, just to make her sound dumb and delusional.”
I lied about no one. Her words are there for everyone to see and hear for themselves.
Bosch
Yeah, hopefully everyone else has better reading comprehension skills.
abfab
Misty. Stop plagerizing and add a few footnotes to your endless ramblings. And while you’re at it, do some soul searching of your own. It may or may not help, but ya nevah know.
alexpof
Why people need to apologize everytime a bunch of stupid people get ofended
Bosch
It’s not about being offended: it’s dangerous to pretend that trans people are trying to erase women. It’s dangerous to make enemies out of people who are not enemies.
This is no different than the way conservatives pretend gays are trying to “groom” their children.
bachy
I find it odd that Representative Stephanie Byers attempts to dictate – “specifically” – what Bette should say and the language she should use to say it.
But isn’t everyone in a democracy – and particularly a lifelong feminist and ally like Bette – free to express their own point of view on the subject?
A different point of view does not equal “transphobic.”
Bosch
Everyone is free to express a point of view; but this isn’t so much a point of view as it is a conspiracy.
Consider how it feels when this is about us:. Conservatives posting for months on end that we were trying to “groom” their children. Didn’t that bother you? It bothered me.
So I imagine it bothers trans people when they are accused of trying to erase women.
I’m 100% certain that Bette isn’t transphobic (though she might become one if radical trans activists start treating her like crap now). But I’m also 100% that Bette is too gullible to be reading propaganda articles. Just like when Fran Drescher was suddenly afraid of 5G. Just like when Kirsty Alley thought Trump was saving the world from pedophiles. Just like when Kirsty Alley thought that Trump won the election. Just like when Kirsty Alley said that if Caligula were alive today, we’d all be praising him.
Everyone has their opinions. But to enter into a fake war between women and trans people? Not smart. I have opinions about certain groups, but I’m not dumb enough to send them out into the world hahaha
LumpyPillows
The gender police, a division of the cancel culture army, would disagree with any deviation from their dogma.
Bosch
The fact that the “gender-police” are annoying doesn’t automatically mean that their opponents are correct.
This overly-long gender debate began just after Trump’s military ban. We’re hating on trans people and gender theory because that’s what the right wants us to do. LGBT community is a lot easier to ruin if you make all the Ls, Gs, Bs, and Ts destroy eachother first. And as an added bonus, they’ve stirred up a war between scared women and trans people.
The right isn’t winning the culture war because all these extra pronouns are stupid; they’re winijng the culture war because they’ve turned us against eachother.
LumpyPillows
We agree. The republicans are loving this. I’m reasonably sure a lot of this comes from their think tanks. The looney left is so gullible that they will champion almost any nutty idea.
The problem is some of this not only pisses off the middle of the road suburbanites, it bothers a lot more of us too and energizes their base that was wavering a bit after the Trump hangover. Triple win for the right.
So, why do we take the bait?
Bosch
“”So, why do we take the bait?”
Because it’s difficult to sacrifice other people for our own safety.
When they’re done scapegoating trans people, who’s gonna be next?
It’s a mirror of the political state of Europe. Russia invades a defenseless country, and threatens the rest of us with nuclear weapons. They spread propaganda that turns Europeans against Americans, the west against the east, the pacifists against the realists… And we know that helping Ukraine is going to have long-term effects on our own countries, and possibly drag us into a larger war. And when they’re done with Ukraine, who’s gonna be next?
But it’s difficult to sacrifice others for our own safety.
LumpyPillows
I’m not abandoning them. I’m trying to win.
Bosch
“I’m reasonably sure a lot of this comes from their think tanks”
Yes. They cracked the code. The right is easy to control with shared hatred, the left is easy to control with hypersensitivity.
Bosch
You’d have an easier time winning if you were united. So teenagers want to be non-binary, big deal! They’re teenagers. Trans children want to play on specific sport teams in school, let them! It’s school, not the olympics. Kids want to get a story from a drag queen, of course they do! In my country we have drag queens all over our kid’s shows since the 70s; no one got sexually confused from it. None of this is new, and none of this is “woke”. It just wasn’t in the public eye until the republicans decided it should be.
And you’ve seen what happens when the center is nudged to the right; you start losing rights. And of course, the right wants us to believe it’s because the left is looney and unfocused, and that’s exactly how they convince the center.
The promise is, “reject the trans community, reject woke politics, and we’ll accept the rest of you”. It’s a lie. The right NEEDS people to hate, because that’s how they unite. And once they’ve squashed all the sympathy we have for trans people, they’ll pick a new group.
I guarantee that group is going to be us.
Ronbo
Have David Hudson, Bosch, AbFab and Lumpy always been such reactive, nasty and fascist?. People have the right to their own opinon and the addition of another very popular progressive to their “enemy list” actually HARMS the LGBTQ community.
Their division and hate seems intended to separate us from good supporters. Are they useful idiots assisting the religious nuts empowerd by this Supreme Court? Are they actually on our side?
One more time: male and female genetics are quite real + Gender is real. Enforcing gender roles based upon sex is fascist and enforcing sex roles based upon gender is fascist. Can we ask both sides of the extremist armies to accept science? Be yourself, not the role extremists demand that you to play. We have legal equality, no need to throw a fit when we aren’t called ‘her majesty’, ‘his majesty’ or the deciderer.
Bosch
Rombo, this conversation looks like fascism to you? I experienced it as lumpy and I swapping perspectives.
I explicitly said Bette is not transphobic. Don’t accuse me of making enemies out of allies.
MystiRivers
Ultimately, what drives the gender ideologue to try to exert control over how others perceive and speak about, and how society arranges itself, around notions of sex and gender?
One idea is that that the gender ideologue is simply interested in power and control for its own sake; and the perverse feeling of self-empowerment it gives them to be able to simultaneously indulge in their own victimhood and locate platform (in academia, social media most prominently) where they can attempt to “cancel” others who question or do not subscribe to their gender ideology.
Sadly, another possibility is revealed by the high rates of reported mental illness among the transgender population itself. This is evident in delusions and denial of reality, the alienation towards one’s own physical self often resulting in the mutilation of the body, and outward threats of violence against others who are perceived as threatening their ideology through recourse to valid scientific, observable empirical facts.
In other words, gender ideology may be best conceived as a mass mental delusion aided and propagated both by the reach of social media as well as a complicit medical-academic complex bent on refashioning the bodies and minds of everyone, a hallmark of totalitarian and fascist movements in the past.
Bosch
“Sadly, another possibility is revealed by the high rates of reported mental illness among the transgender population itself.”
Every gay person knows that depression and suicidal ideation are a direct result of discrimnatory treatment by society.
You’re a faker.
You’re more things too, but I’ll make Globe cry if I say them.
GlobeTrotter
@Bosch: “You’re more things too, but I’ll make Globe cry if I say them.”
My, my, all this bitterness, not to mention the obsession with yours truly. Ever considered therapy? That’s an honest question by the way.
Bosch
Unhhh… Clearly you’re also good at being a bitch, so why were you clutching your pearls before when I called transphobes “dicks”?
It’s like you were pretending to be more virtuous then you are, with some kind of rhetorical signal… Hmmm… I know there’s a word for that…
GlobeTrotter
God, you’re so predictable. Lay a trap and you feel compelled to bite. You never disappoint!
Bosch
If you’ve been around here for a while, then you know I like engaging with trolls.
Ronbo
Don’t ignore that significant anti-gay/lesbian biases among family members is also a trigger found in nearly half of trans individuals history. There are two diamentrically opposed groups that attempt to enforce such strict male/femal gender rolse – extremist conservatives and extremist trans activists.
Such strict gender role enforcement is also the greatest indicator of future spousal abuse. Be youself – don’t play a role. Be uniquely yourself.
Bosch
” There are two diamentrically opposed groups that attempt to enforce such strict male/femal gender rolse – extremist conservatives and extremist trans activists.”
Yup.
KellyRobinsonJr
I may be wrong, but I think Bette had Supreme Court justice Coen’s words in her mind. I don’t think Bette meant any harm to anyone, but she may need to catch up with the evolving changes in words and language… All-natural languages change and new words are created. Many people still do not know the current meaning and use of “Dead name”, ‘birthing people’, menstruators, and “people with vaginas”. I remember when the words biological parent were combined, some people were insulted and they got over it. Give Better the benefit of the doubt and a well-deserved second chance. The Devine Miss M has done more for LGBTQ rights (Or has it changed to LGBTQ+ or LGBTQIA?) Anyway, Bette Midler has done more for the Alphabet Mafia in her lifetime than anyone in this thread of comments, 1000 times over.
Ken A.
Gotta be careful here. For 1, not everything written is transphobic just because the trans community says it is. If an article doesn’t specifically praise them, or doesn’t mention them, it always gets labeled transphobic. Don’t let them manipulate your thinking. Read the piece for yourself and don’t be afraid to disagree if you do, if you agree that it is that is fine too. Your opinion is yours. So Queerty has did about face on Bette Midler after years of praising her. TSK TSK. I’m on her side and Macy Gray’s side. Can’t wait for the Hocus Pocus series AKA Hocus Pocus 2. But I can wait for the season because not a fan of cold weather.
LumpyPillows
Oddly, many trans people do not support the radical nonsense being pushed from leftist, gender warriors.
Bette is mad as hell at the dehumanizing words the left is pushing out there to bolster their indefensible position about what a woman is or isn’t. She’s right.
Macy is mad that some people think that transitioning is the same as living the life from day one. She’s right.
Neither is saying trans people are valid, deserving people. But, to defend the indefensible position, decent is not permitted.
Bosch
Maybe they are right. But they are also celebrities, and should know better when it comes to posting certain opinions in the public domain.
What if Tom Hanks tweeted something about how one race is statistically more violent than another? Is it true? Possibly. But what is the subtext of a message like that? Every tweet is read in the context of the current sociopolitical situation, and the current situation is that the right is trying to instigate a war between women and trans-women.
ShiningSex
Midler has always been an ally. The younger LGBT generation is sadly ignorant themselves.
Everything is an issue when in reality it is not. They need to fight those that are obviously anti-LGBT instead of people like Gray and Midler.
This kind of falsely attacking an ally for their wording shows how ignorant the newer generation is and with that…………we’re doomed!
Bosch
All three of us still consider Bette an ally. I just think she’s being clumsy.
MystiRivers
The final piece of confirmatory evidence is the aggressive and irrational reaction of the gender ideologist when their underlying efforts and motivations are revealed. Verbal attacks are most common, as well as references to non-peer reviewed pseudo-science. Violence, intimidation and the public disclosure of private information are also observed reactions. All of these underscore the inherent mental instability and drive for power and control of the gender ideologist.
humble charlie
you keep pushing you’re going to get pushback; the harder you push the harder the pushback will be. and it’s going to hurt. like it’s hurting now. and in response to those bot-shit posters who smear anyone who disagrees with them as a bot, they can go BOT themselves.
ShiningSex
Midler’s comments were absolutely NOT transphobic. The new generation needs to stop attacking our allies and go after the true hate and ignorance people out there. Midler is an ally not an enemy. Pick your battles wisely idiots.
Ronbo
Sing it Sister! Extremism is the enemy of common sense. Male and Female sexes are very, very real. Gender is very, very real. Who is trying to force people into silly sex roles? 1) the conservative extremists who want to enforce traditional roles AND… 2) the trans extremists who also want to force people into harsh and strict sex roles.
Be yourself – don’t project some fake image. Be the most honest and sincere person you can be – no one can take away that dignity.
tallskin4
Hmmmm, 59 out of the 133 comments on here are from BOSCH- that is 44% of all comments-
that’s a level of response that is mentally ill hysteric
Bosch, it’s not just the tranzies who need therapy, maybe you should look into getting some help yourself?
Ronbo
Exremists like Bosch and David Hudson foolishly think that by expanding their ‘enemies list’ to people as supportive of Bette is going to help?!?
What you focus upon expands. Looks like the extremists here want to shrink our community by attacking our supporters. Women are our base; demeaning them as nothing more than a penis-less man is indecent and insulting.
Bosch
Ronbo, I never said Bette was transphohic, or an enemy. All I did was explain the neurology of trans people.
Tallskin, it’s called having a conversation.
Bosch
You seriously counted my comments? Are you upset that exposed you’re also london-resistance or something?
MystiRivers
The gender ideologists are inherently mentally unbalanced.
Bosch
Not unbalanced enough to count comments.