rally cries

Cleve Jones Insists All Your March on Washington Criticism is ‘Wrong,’ ‘Wrong’ and ‘Wrong’


Who criticized October’s gay march on Washington? Oh, right. Well lead organizer Cleve Jones has a few words for you naysayers who think the National Equality March is hooey, not worthwhile, and destined to fail.

When October 11 hits this year, tens of thousands of gays and their supporters might just descend on Washington D.C. for a gay rights rally, marking the 30th anniversary of the first one.

And who cares if the thing is just four months away? Jones, who helped create the AIDS Memorial Quilt effort, says everything is on track. In a rebuttal published by Bilerico, Jones offers a point-by-point rebuttal:

“Planning a march on Washington isn’t something you can throw together in five months.”
Wrong. We’ve learned from Join the Impact, Meet in the Middle and others that large and powerful events can be organized with lightening speed.


“The Mall is already reserved on October 11… Cleve and Co. have already been denied a permit for that day.”
Wrong. The West Capitol lawn is available and has been reserved – by us. The DC Police, Capitol Police and the National Park Service are all cooperating with us to accommodate a crowd of any size.

“Congress isn’t in session on October 11th, what’s the point when participants can’t lobby?”
Wrong. The most effective form of citizen lobbying occurs at home, in local districts, when people who live and work and vote in that district engage their representatives in long term dialogue. That’s why we’re building this march in all 435 Congressional districts.

“None of the large organizations have been consulted…its just a small circle of people.”
Wrong. A large and growing network of grassroots activists from throughout the country is coordinating the march. Perhaps Bil believes that we should have achieved a consensus from all the leaders and organizations before calling for the march. A consensus in our community? Get real. What we are offering is a clear unifying demand, a philosophy and a strategy. Individuals are free to support it, criticize it or ignore it as they choose.

“A do-nothing march on Washington is a tactical mistake.”
Well, of course, a do-nothing march would be a total waste of time. This march is an organizing vehicle to create a national grassroots movement to change votes in Congress. That’s the purpose.

“A march on Washington will not bring marriage equality to the flyover states… the coastal queers are willing to sacrifice us on the alter of domesticity.”
Wrong. In fact, only federal action will bring full equality to all of our people in all fifty states. The march and other actions that focus on Federal intervention are urgently required. And could we please stop using strategies and rhetoric that divide us by state or region? The 14th Amendment of the Constitution is supposed to protect us all.

“California is not the end-all-be-all of queer America.”
Agreed. But wrong, again, if you think that’s what we believe. Read what we are actually saying, it’s clear that this march is not about California or any other single state. It’s about all of us. And it’s about building queer political power to win equality, combat homophobia and fight for HIV/AIDS funding.

“Not too many of us can afford to take a vacation to DC.”
Yes, times are hard, but if you want to wait until the economy improves before we push for equality you may be waiting a long time. We’re organizing frugally, not planning a 3-day multimedia extravaganza. Roundtrip airfare from the West Coast is available now online for less than $300. Millions of equality advocates live within a few hours drive or train trip of DC. The march is going to be huge. While many will not be able to attend, they can hold support rallies in their hometowns or engage in other actions to support our goal.

“The majority of US queers still need basic protections from discrimination.”
If you would take them time to review our statements and my speeches on the issue, we have only one demand: equal protection under the law, in all matters governed by civil law, in all fifty states.” We reject further compromises and delays.

“Cleve’s quotes are all about Prop. 8, California and same sex marriage.”
Wrong. View the speech, read anything I’ve published since last November. It’s all about full equality now. And please don’t complain that the media will only focus on marriage rights when you’re exacerbating the problem by misrepresenting our statements.

(Photo: Rex Wockner)

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  • Matt

    Keep fighting the good fight, Cleve. I’ll be there with two friends.

  • Wolf

    Me too. Screw the naysayers. If last week taught us anything its time to stand up and stand tall TOGETHER!

  • Todd

    I find it great that we are finally getting someone to be a voice, nationally, for our rights. It’s been sorely lacking. I whole heartedly support Cleve’s efforts. I think his energy and commitment to grassroots political mobilization is a great face for the cause. And we need a face, no more acronyms. Also, it’s quite nice that he was a disciple of Harvey, the most charismatic face we ever had.

  • Bob

    I’m sorry, but this event is destined to fail and is going to set our movement back. How is it going to look when national news covers our “national march” that only a few thousand people (if that) show up for? If the rest of America sees that we can’t even show up to fight for our rights, why should they want to join the cause? Please, please, please organizers of this “march” — don’t go ahead with it. You’re going to do far more damage than good.

  • Matt

    @Bob: I’d rather have a few thousand show up than have you sitting at home, inactive, crying about other people’s actions.

  • Alex

    I will too. And for the record, I’m going to drive, and sleep on my cousin’s floor. It’ll cost me gas and food, maybe one night in a hotel if I can’t do 18 hours.

  • Alex

    @Bob: Why don’t you start organizing now in your local community, and try to make sure there are more than 1000 people?

  • Todd

    I think Cleve may have been very wise in this march. What do you think is going to happen if we have a few more months of silence from the administration? Not to mention if another DOJ brief comes out that is as heinous as the one just filed. I think having a date in October already set up is going to look pretty good to a lot of people.

  • Robert, NYC

    I’m definitely going, I went to the 1993 march. The only thing we need to do now is not have just one a year, but four times a year at least, to keep momentum going and put our representatives on notice that when it comes to voting, we are a powerful economic block to be reckoned with, in good times and hard times. We need to send them a clear and transparent message, we’ve had enough of their political games and we’re not going to take it any more. We’ve had enough of them taking our votes for granted only to get shafted once they’re in power. If they truly want our vote, let them earn it, or fuck off, democrat and republican alike.

  • Trev

    I think his will be a non-event and possibly even a step backward.

    The media won’t care (they didn’t care much at the last three) and media coverage can be too easily manipulated by the administration. (Obama pushed the Prop 8 decision out of the news cycle by pushing up the Sotyomayor announcement.)

    Obama also calls the shots on reporting attendance so even if a million turn out (which is unlikely), they’ll say the crowd was much, much smaller.

    And Washington will be a ghost town. There’s no more potent image of powerlessness than a bunch of angry people shouting in front of empty government buildings.

    Actions like these have to resonate through the media, preferably over multiple news cycles, to have impact. I don’t see a media strategy here.

  • Matt

    @Trev: It’s not just about media attention, you attention whore. It’s about connecting with organizations on a national level and developing a voice that is more unified.

  • Ted B. (Charging Rhino)

    “Congress isn’t in session on October 11th, what’s the point when participants can’t lobby?”</b)
    Wrong. The most effective form of citizen lobbying occurs at home, in local districts, when people who live and work and vote in that district engage their representatives in long term dialogue. That’s why we’re building this march in all 435 Congressional districts.

    …if the most effective lobbying is at home in the Districts, then why is the March on the DC Mall? Cleve refutes his own arguement.

    The media isn’t going to care, especially if there’s something sexier to cover on the 6:30 National News. Obama, the Congress and most of the staffers (who aren’t marching themsleves) will be out-of-town anyway.

  • InExile

    THIS MARCH IS NECESSARY! Washington needs to know we are serious about equality. Writing letters and lobbying is not working, they just ignore us and make empty promises.

  • Todd

    What I find so interesting is that there seems to be a whole group of people who feel there is a “right way” to go about advancing our rights. It’s never articulated of course and the right way seems to always be the opposite of whatever is being proposed. Well if there was a “right way”, we would be equal by now.
    I feel that because we are dealing in the political sphere, we need to always confront those in power, even our “allies”, to push our agenda. After all, they’re only politicians. Obama the man may be for our complete equality, but Obama the politician needs a constant kick in the pants. And I think the last four months demonstrates that.

  • SFNative


    I have a simple answer for you. If you think something is going to fail, you help it out and you support it. If you think the March on Washington is going to fail, you come to Washington D.C. and march, and you get your friends and neighbors and acquaintances to come out with you to D.C. and march. Have faith, and try.

  • SFNative

    @Ted B. (Charging Rhino):

    No matter where the representatives are, this march will be covered everywhere, and they will be very aware of it and the message and demand communicated from it. We have 20-30 million LGBT people. Surely 1 out of every 100 (totaling 200,000 to 300,000) can make it to Washington D.C. and come out to the march. I am more concerned about our LGBT community killing this idea because we appear to have no faith. This isn’t a party march, this is a serious demonstration.

  • Fitz

    I have every intention of being there, and have signed up for updates. Even if this issue gets resolved before then, it’s important to let people know that i care more about my civil liberties than my vacation plans.

  • Hannah

    I definitely wanna go. It’s on a weekend, too, so I won’t have to skip any classes.

    I don’t really think it can hurt. If it’s ineffective, then how would it set the movement back?

  • Harvey's Says "Cleve, Grow Up!"

    “Congress isn’t in session on October 11th, what’s the point— period?

    Wrong. Have you SEEN the boner I get whenever I have more than 10 people’s attention?! Girl, I’m an oldddd queen now and Viagra ain’t cheap! And the “star” fuckers…yum….look at my picture…no, seriously….do you think I can still get laid WITHOUT a microphone and dropping Harvey’s name every three minutes? WRONG! And before you say it, YES, the Mall is a HUGE sink hole that will swallow up anything less than a million and a half people, and, YES, “marches” are to change what 8-track tapes are to music but HAVE YOU SEEN THE BONER I GET????

  • Trev


    It is about media. If the media don’t cover it, the government won’t be moved because nobody but us will know it happened. Media exposure is what gives us leverage over the power structure.

    I’m all for galvanizing the community but there are more potent, less expensive, less risky ways to do that.

    I made a simple statement and supported it with a reasoned argument. If you disagree, make a counter argument. Calling me a whore is unkind and counterproductive.

  • Bitch, please!

    @ Matt: You are those bitter queens who stand at the door and pass judgment at all who enters, but then go back alone to your empty hovel. Do something or shut the hell up! Stop with the self-hating. Some of these matts among us are our worst enemies!

  • KYLE

    I look forward to the parade. The Washington Blade will have a live feed from the Parade. Even though owner David Unger refused to put one penny out for the video we heard, the crew is going to use what small money they get paid by the Blade and produce the video themselves. No money is apparently being spent on the online side of the company, leaving it out of the technology loop and leaving many employees disappointed.

  • ML

    Right now many thousands of Iranians are risking their LIVES for what they believe in. They don’t have an organizing committee or press strategy, but it is happening and having an impact.

    So stop the bitching and DO something! I’m sick and tired of the negativity and name calling.

    Keep fighting Cleve!

  • Bill Perdue

    Go Cleve.

    The movement is at a crossroads.

    As the left predicted, Obama is following up a campaign hinged on pandering to christer bigots with more of the same. He clearly intends to put off as much of our agenda as he can until the next election cycle and then drop us, just as he and his party did in 2007-08.

    The strategy espoused by so many Democrats and especially the clueless Obots of kowtowing to bigots in the Democratic (sic) party in the hope of getting a few crumbs is a proven loser.

    Clearly what the GLBT communities needs now more ever is a new, nationwide, internally democratic movement with a militant program and a focus on mass actions. Congress, the courts and especially the bigots in the White House and the DNC aren’t going to make any concessions to us unless we compel them.

    The largely spontaneous and often massive local demonstrations, the meeting that produced the Dallas Principles and calls for national demonstrations like this one are all steps on the road to breaking with the bigots who run the Democrat and Republican parties.

    As the general radicalization and sharp political polarization deepens under the impact of two, three or however many unwinnable wars and an economy on the brink of a depression we have to position ourselves for the fight for our lives. We have to become independent of the bigots in the twin parties and strike out on our own, building our own movement, organizing our own communities and winning allies. We have to position ourselves to come out winners because the consequences of losing will be dreadful.

    This march is a step in that direction and we should welcome it on that basis and build it as best we can. Those cynics who fear getting involved and those Obots who owe personal, not political, allegiance to Obama will stay home. Too bad for them. The rest of us will do the best we can to build it and any other actions or groups that advance our agenda.

  • pie jesu

    i’m done with all this

  • Michael Stone

    All of this infighting makes us look like the Republicans. Stop all the name calling and Monday morning quarterbacking, and try to do something to help make a difference.

  • AndTom

    I was at the meet in the middle Fresno event, Cleve’s speech was amazing and focused on the coming together of all gay americans by grassroot means. He was out spoken enough to get my two friends and I to purchase our tikets already. So add 3 more to the count.

  • schlukitz


    “Right now many thousands of Iranians are risking their LIVES for what they believe in. They don’t have an organizing committee or press strategy, but it is happening and having an impact.”

    Buddy, you done took the words right out of my mouth.
    I was about to say the same thing but you beat me to the punch! ;)

    Fuck the doom and gloom crowd and all of the naysayers. They never made anything good happen and they only delight they take is when they can say, “You see…I told you it wouldn’t work.” They thrive on failure. They are no better than the people who make money in the stock market by betting on the failure of the company, rather than it’s success.

    I will be in New York City in October and I have every intention of being in the March on Washington, DC. if I have to walk all the way to get there.

  • SM

    Go to Washington and March. Grassroots movements are great. I changed minds in Orange County California on Prop 8. Even have a neighbor who went from having a Yes sticker on his car given to him by his church to stopping me and being angry that it passed now.

    Many straight people in Orange County stopped me and thanked me for being vocal about No On Prop 8 privately. They support you I just think you need to keep pushing through that wall and their comfort zones in ways straight families understand.

    You can support Obama and still be firm and push for your Equality Agenda. Obama needs to know its his time in history for that too. You can accomplish it by making the movement stronger for you and Obama~

  • Curtis

    We have no one to blame but ourselves if this march fails. I get the feeling there are people on this board who are stomping their feet and saying “I’m not going no way>” mainly because they have now taken the position that it will fail rather than spend one second to make it a success.

    If we let Obama get away with his inaction on our issues by remaining compliant Democratic party supporters and the nice quiet Queers we became after the Clinton election then we are losers and deserve no piece of the equality pie. It will be inconvenient, it will cost money, it will have ups and downs, but with no effort there will be nothing but scraps.

    The media will cover it, have no worries. Gay issues are news right now.

  • Alex

    This is such a bad idea for the reasons already listed.

    When Jointheimpact was organizing the Prop 8 marches you didn’t hear one dissenting voice.. There’s a reason for that.

    It was a good fucking idea.

    This is horrible and it’s going to make us look weak, ineffective and as unorganized and separated as we truly are. Please, old queens who demand the spotlight once more, stop this nonsense and actually hear out the majority of gay people who say this idea is awful.

  • schlukitz


    Um…didn’t you say in post no. 5 that you were going? Or, are you a different Alex than the one from post no. 5?

    I’m confused by your apparent reversal of opinion?

  • mikeincleveland

    just make sure there’s lots of liquor and drugs and the clubs are open every night and the march will be packed

  • Fitz

    @mikeincleveland: No.. we are married old men. Make sure there is a nice place to some exercise and fresh carrot juice. My club and drug days went out 20+ years ago.

  • Charles Merrill

    I am going and replicating the scene in “Milk” marching from the Castro to the City Hall. I will be there with fists clenched ready to fight.

  • Klyphe

    @Alex (the second one):

    JointheImpact was organising for one specific issue: Prop 8.

    Meet on the Mall is organising for something grossly more fundamental than a single piece of legislation. As Jones stated, this is about equal rights, not just marriage, ad nauseum.

    We’ve sat quietly long enough. Waited patiently, hopefully for some one to do something for us; fed off scraps for the last 40 years.

    We’re done. Each and everyone of us should be livid at the manner in which we’ve been treated by society. It’s extremely easy to sit back and accept the status quo, to sigh and roll over and wish for Tomorrow to come.

    Get off your collective ass and join the cause.

  • schlukitz


    Same here. HeeHee

  • Jersey

    Back in 93 there were lots of gay people who poo-pooed that march, too. There are always chicken-shit cowards who are afraid to shake the beads and that march was the awesome. I already have a car-full of people going to this one. We can’t wait.

  • Brent

    I will be there.

  • Religion_Hurts

    How much money does Cleve and the other “advocates” get paid for this event? Many of the people pushing the ideas are making money doing so – beware.

    Marching on Washington misses the pint – religion is the target, not politicians. Religion is the only thing in the world that makes gays “wrong.” wake up. If you’re going to fight, fight the right battle.

  • Bill Perdue

    @Religion_Hurts: What does the DNC pay you to make up these outrageous lies? Are you paid by the word? Or by the contemptible absurdity of the lie?

    Politicians motivated by superstition and ignorance, i.e., religion, and by the hustler sleaze factor preeminent in the ‘careers’ of the Clintons, Pelosi, Frank, the Bushes, Reid and Obama are just as dangerous as pigs like Der Papenfuehrer and Rick Warren.

    They all pander to redneck bigots, catholic bigots and moron bigots and other bigots.

  • getreal

    I will be helping to plan this and hope that everyone championing it can not only show but commit to working in their congressional district after it is over. This will be an inspirational day but the daily un-glamourous work of activism needs to be the end result.

  • getreal

    @Religion_Hurts: Actually no one is getting paid for this. This is a grassroots only effort hence no concert no celebrity guest just activists if you are concerned feel free to volunteer in your congressional district.

  • Cal

    I just heard about this march last week. It’s time to step up the promotion efforts. What’s being done?

  • niles

    Okay, if lobbying congressional representatives is best done at home, why are you going to the place they just left from?

  • galefan2004

    “Congress isn’t in session on October 11th, what’s the point when participants can’t lobby?”
    Wrong. The most effective form of citizen lobbying occurs at home, in local districts, when people who live and work and vote in that district engage their representatives in long term dialogue. That’s why we’re building this march in all 435 Congressional districts.

    I 100% agree with you. However, THE MOST EFFECTIVE FORM OF LOBBYING OCCURS AT HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don’t live in DC, so mind telling me how you can support a march on DC and stand by this statement. The two are COMPLETELY contradictory, and the fact that you can’t realize that means you are unfit to lead. You remind me of one of those CEOs, that makes 5 million to run a 10 billion deficit in a company, that can’t use his own common sense to fix things. Unfortunately, the gay movement is not GM, Obama isn’t going to wait for it to need bankruptcy protection then replace its leaders with more competent ones.

  • galefan2004

    @Matt: You are assuming 1) he is at home and inactive instead of at home and involved and 2) that everyone else complaining about this march is the same way. There are local organizations that need support and dollars, and my support goes to them, and I’m willing to do whatever it takes to make them succeed in their goals.

  • galefan2004

    @Jersey: Please list things that the 1993 march ACCOMPLISHED. I really don’t care if gay people march on DC or not as long as something is accomplished. The march in 1993 accomplished NOTHING.

  • Fitz

    It’s absurd to say that the march in 93 accomplished nothing. Hello? Ryan White money? For us older people who lost friends, remember when it was perfectly legal for an ER or a dentist or a barber or a landlord to refuse to serve you if you had HIV? We are still here- and with more going up for us than before, each of these efforts has tackled the issue of the times.

  • schlukitz


    And what evidence do you have to prove your wild assertion?

  • Religion_Hurts

    RE: Lobbying

    A recent study claimed that more than $1 billion has been spent on lobbying efforts for GLBT in the last 10 years ($100 million just on CA Prop 8) and during that time only 7 politicians had changed their minds. (I will find a copy of the study and Post the link).

    We are wasting our money lobbying and marching. There is only one thing in the entire world that makes “gay” WRONG – it is religion. If you want rights you need to make that ‘wrong’ go away. You are fighting the wrong battle. It isn’t politics you need to change, it’s minds, minds that have been brainwashed into believing “gay is wrong.”

    Until you fix that, it’s all a big waste of time and energy.

  • Jeffrey

    Instead of a march in Washington, that so many people don’t have the time or funds to invest in, why not plan a day for a huge march for full federal equal rights that happens simultaneously in every city that we can get to participate, like we did after prop 8 passed? We can really get an enormous turnout and total up the number of participants in each city and get that total number out to the media. Plus, each local tv station and newspaper is going to carry coverage of the event nearest to them in addition to the national coverage. We could have speeches that could originate in DC and NY and San Fran and Chicago and L.A. and Atlanta, etc. broadcast and shown on big screens in as many cities as possible. If we don’t have to travel clear across the country and pay for hotel rooms, etc., I can get lots of my straight friends to participate as well. They will be more than happy to support us in a local march but they don’t have enough at stake to invest in a march on Washington. The turnout could be so much more vast than a march in DC.

  • marcelo

    Most gay friendly people I speak to think that the fight for equality stops once your state allows you to marry. These are politically literate, educated friends, and still… so many of them don’t understand that the state by state strategy is simply a means for getting to full federal equal rights. Americans aren’t yet connecting the dots.

    I think the message of this march is important: to show Americans that true equality will only happen on a federal level.

    Let’s go!

  • Bill Perdue

    @Jeffrey:, thats an excellent idea but not instead of a March on Washington. Local demonstrations across the country should occur after a MOW and before regional marches, the whole cycle repeated until we convince the bigots who run the twin parties that we mean business.

    Until then we’ve got a march to build.

    Equality or else…

  • sfsilver

    As Howard Dean said on Rachel Maddow a couple days ago “It (Gay Equality) doesn’t get done unless the (LGBT) community pushes harder than the community at large is willing to go.” We have a hard battle to fight and a March is an excellent part of that fight.

    Too many commentors here seem to think that everything was cheap and easy for everyone in 93. It wasn’t the economy wasn’t in good shape then either and we managed to scrape together the money to get our asses to Washington. It can be done. So much negativity here.

    A MOW and local marches to support it are all valuable parts of the fight we have to make.

    If we don’t win Federally, we don’t win. I’m not willing to accept that my LGBT brothers and sisters in Utah and Florida will be permanently excluded from rights. Federal protections will expose the hateful and regressive result of the State by State strategy and force States to recognize marriages regardless of where they are performed. I also see our fight to be way beyond Marriage Equality, a right I don’t see myself ever needing. We need the whole package of Federal protections.

  • getreal

    @Religion_Hurts: Plenty of activists are doing the door by door person by person job of changing hears and minds. That is why the undecided/moderately against voters on marriage equality are changing at an average of 5% a month in counties where they are being canvassed and outreached to we are gaining on 50/50 on this issue. Becoming mind police is not a solution some people believe in God some don’t it is a personal decision and neither ideology has more right to exist. Americans have a constitutional right to worship (or not) as they choose and it plays into the absolute worst christian fundamentalist propaganda of gay people trying to take God from America. This is a civil rights issue and it will be won like every civil rights issue so far in America by the hard work of ordinary people making sacrifices. It will not be won by religious or atheist fundamentalists on either side trying to force their way of thinking onto other Americans this is not China. What really needs to happen is people like yourself need to stop trying to work out your own childhood trauma or anger against religion out in the equality movement. The polling shows we must engage the faithful to win full equality. The most effective way so far in changing the votes of religious people (and we are changing votes) is to make it clear to them that their lives won’t change and America won’t change if everyone has the same rights. It is clear you do zero activism or political work of any kind or you would know that your idea of trying to tell people they cannot have their beliefs AND believe in equality is a guarantee we will lose this. People like you are going to have to deal with their hatred of religion in therapy not holding back the equality movements progress.

  • Religion_Hurts

    @getreal: You made my argument for me. If you avoid the religious discussion hoping for “tolerance,” you are simply tolerated. WHY should gay people be “tolerated?” Because they are defective. I will remind you that blacks and women are not tolerated. Why do you choose that for gays?

    Religion is the only thing that makes gays wrong. Religion is story, not fact. there are 1800 different religions – all claiming to be “right.” They each believe they are the right one. They also ALL believe GAY is WRONG. If you really care about fairness, start there.

    Gays suffer from both shame and consequences – laws (equal rights) will handle the consequences… what are you going to do about the shame? Ignoring it doesn’t work.

    Religion works when it is not challenged. Progress requires education and knowledge. If you want to do something positive for gay rights recognize what has caused ALL the hardship and pain – RELIGION. Not republicans, conservatives, bigots etc., but, religion.

    You will need to think about this. If you actually do think about it – welcome to the living, thinking part of humanity. Now, go wake up some more people.

    I am gay and I am not wrong. Religion hurts.

  • Bill Perdue

    @Religion_Hurts: You’re right about religion – it’s based on ignorance and gross superstation and is our main enemy. That’s self evident to everyone but apologists for bigotry and bigots themselves. There are a few non-bigoted religious types but they’re few and far between and as unreliable as the German clerics who supported us and then switched to Hitler.

    And you’re mainly right about lobbying. It’s pretty ineffective.

    But you’re wrong about marches, by which I mean a concerted, permanent campaign of mass actions whether local, regional or national. They work.

    When you say It isn’t politics you need to change, it’s minds, minds that have been brainwashed into believing “gay is wrong” I presume you’re talking about bigots like Obama, the Clintons, Palin, McCain, Reid and Pelosi and most of the Congress irrespective of party. Obama, a religious nut case, is directly responsible, along with the catholic cult, Warren’s southern baptists and the morons for defeating our chances to preserve SSM in California based on Obama’s bigoted comment that “gawd’s in the mix”.

    The politics of bigotry are a permanent mixture of bigoted cults and bigoted politicians acting against the GLBT communities. That’s not going to change. Religion is the enemy and so are the politicians who back it up with bigoted laws and bribes like those issued by Joshua Dubois, Obama’s bigoted ordained Minister of Pandering, who arranged campaign interventions with scum like the Reverends Donnie McClurkin and Rick Warren.

    German christers after they changed their minds… [img]http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:iKnzObaRD_HD8M:http://liberalslikechrist.org/NaziPriestsSaluteHitler.jpg%5B/img%5D

  • Religion_Hurts

    @Bill Perdue: It’s just RELIGION. Fight that fight. That’s the important one. Religion has made gay wrong for too long – enough is enough. Religion is for the weak or uneducated.

  • Bill Perdue

    @Religion_Hurts: “Religion is for the weak or uneducated.” And if the President (“gawd’s in the mix), the Vice President (voted for DOMA, has no apologies) and the Secretary of State (doesn’t want to see hubby Bills DOMA repealed) are all religion-informed, weak and uneducated…?

    Naw, you’re wrong. Scratch a bigot and you’ll find superstition and ignorance and scratch a leading politician and you’ll find the same. They inextricably intertwined. You can’t fight one with out finding the other in the same enemy trenches.

  • schlukitz


    Religion is also an excuse, a cover if you will, to make bigotry, hatred and discrimination socially and legally acceptable.

    The proof of that is to be seen all around us and we have lived with that all of our lives.

    Heart by heart? Mind by mind?

    The wooden beads on my abacus have developed dry rot and turned to dust while I was counting over the years.

    But hey, that’s okay. There’s not that many “crossovers” that I can’t count them on the fingers of one hand. ;P

  • Religion_Hurts

    No matter what we think of conservatives or bigots – we must understand they got their ideas from religion. Religion is the ONLY thing that makes gay wrong. That’s the fight – not this political BS that just spends our money.

    $1 billion has been spent to lobby and “convert” the politicians in the last 10 years – only 7 have converted. They were taught before they could “think.” Recognize that reality and we’ll make progress.

    Religion is the only thing that makes gay wrong. Religion is just a stupid idea to own people who do not think. Get them.

  • Sceth

    *Spelling: Change “lightening speed” to “lightning speed”.

  • getreal

    @Religion_Hurts: Being gay isn’t wrong dipshit. Religion doesn’t make homosexuality wrong religious extremist fundamentalists do. They are as crazy as you are trying to push their ideology and trying to control how people think. When we stress freedom and families religious people slowly but surely in outreach open their minds. Telling Americans that we will take away their right to think and worship how they choose is a guarantee we will lose. If you find religion distasteful then don’t practice it but polling numbers prove your ideas would be suicide for the movement. If you don’t believe in God good for you but why be obsessive about it you need to convert everyone that makes you a fundamentalists nd who would want to be that?

  • schlukitz

    Calling people “dipshit” is how one wins hearts and minds?

  • TANK

    Being gay isn’t wrong dipshit.

    Just acting on it according to official CATHOLIC dogma.

    Religion doesn’t make homosexuality wrong religious extremist fundamentalists do.

    “religion” isn’t but “RELIGION” is. The pathetic dance of justifying primitive false beliefs has begun.

    They are as crazy as you are trying to push their ideology and trying to control how people think.

    Right, because anyone who dares oppose toxic religious faith (most of them, including christianity and islam), is engaging in “thought control”. This isn’t about your right to assembly and religious freedoms, dippy. This is about religious memes poisoning the ability of others to live their lives freely and as they please. Yes, religion in the u.s. is practically synonymous with institutional bigotry.

    When we stress freedom and families religious people slowly but surely in outreach open their minds.

    That’s bullshit. Religious people in the u.s. (christians) do not open their minds to same sex marriage or even that there’s nothing wrong with being gay. You see a little movement on DADT, however. It isn’t religion that’s responsible for the change of heart either, but SECULAR values that are taking the place of bigoted religious ones. It’s moderates like you who do nothing to change the minds of those who are homophobic and attribute it to their religious faith. You are just a failed fundamentalist to them.

    Telling Americans that we will take away their right to think and worship how they choose is a guarantee we will lose.

    But who’s telling americans that? Huh? No one. Not even religion hurts is saying that. I think batshit stupid and HARMFUL ideas such as those found throughout christianity should be challenged, and the freedom to challenge them should be protected.

    If you find religion distasteful then don’t practice it

    It’s more than distasteful; it’s fucking UNETHICAL. REligious beliefs cause people to do bad things.

    but polling numbers prove your ideas would be suicide for the movement.

    Once again jousting at ideas NEVER PROPOSED because, at heart, you’re just as much a religionist as the rest of them.

    If you don’t believe in God good for you but why be obsessive about it you need to convert everyone that makes you a fundamentalists nd who would want to be that?

    This, right here, is the christian agenda. In this country where 80% of the people believe that the bible is the word of god, atheists are the target–they are the oppressed, not fundotard religionists. CHristians have declared war on atheists and have for centuries. They are the ones teaching their toxic beliefs to kids, indoctrinating them in their cult of memes, ruining their minds to dogma free judgment. And it is the RELIGIOUS who, and specifically christians in the u.s., who demand that everyone think just like them.

  • TANK

    when someone says that they believe homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so, it SHOULD be challenged. It’s your moral responsibility to challenge it. And there are–necessarily are–better ways of challenging it than appealing to the same source that they use to justify it with–their faith. This isn’t about “live and let live” and all are free to worship and believe as they see fit. That is a smokescreen. This is about challenging unethical beliefs when they arise, as beliefs have consequences.

  • TANK

    And the notion that one is entitled not only tolerance but RESPECT and ACCEPTANCE for holding demonstrably false beliefs that are linked to harm is ludicrous. I no more need to respect your faith than I do the faith of the man wearing a tinfoil hat insisting that women are aliens. And trust that your belief is no more nor less justified than his. Falsehood SHOULD be confronted.

  • schlukitz


    I grew up in a time when we were all taught, hell, brainwashed into believing that we must respect everyone.

    I was told to respect my parents, no matter whether they were right or wrong or how badly I was mistreated by them.

    I was told to respect my teachers, even when they took it upon themselves to physically discipline us with their hands and wooden rulers with metal edge inserts.

    I was told to respect my high school Principal, even when he removed his belt and gave me 25 lashes across my bare ass with it (yeah, the perve wanted to see my lilly white boy ass turn red) for taking a quarter out of the drawer of a teacher’s desk so I could buy myself a hot lunch at the cafeteria.

    I was told to respect my Catholic Priest when he stood in the pulpit preaching bullshit, outright lies and propagating hatred against all the people he did not like.

    I was told to respect my Sunday School teacher when he tried to brainwash us kids into believing that a man could survive in the belly of a fucking whale without light, food or oxygen.

    I was told to respect the cop on the beat, who beat queers up simply for having the audacity to be sitting on the stoop and conversing with friends on a corner.

    And last, but not least, I was told to respect God, even though no one could give me empiracal evidence of his existance.

    The point is, it did not take me long to figure out that being told that I must respect people, even when they had done nothing to earn that respect, was simply another method of mind control. It also did not take me long to realize that I was surrounded by control freaks.

    And once I fully realized that fact and began resisting that mind control, it did not take long before I was labeled as “rebellious” and a “problem child”. I pissed them off because I was no longer willing to let them control me and try to make me believe and do as they wanted me to.

    I left home at the tender age of 14 to escape the religious Christian nuts who demanded that I think just like them. It was the best decision that I ever made.

  • getreal

    I will continue to ignore the atheist fundamentalist that does nothing for the movement but is obsessed with trying to control everyone way of thinking because he had a bad childhood. Boo-hoo. This isn’t your therapists office this is the equality movement and the newest polling has shown religious can and are being moved with outreach it also shows we need at least some of them to win. For a do nothing like yourself who doesn’t care about equality just wants to childishly tantrum because anyone who doesn’t think like you is stupid (Boo-hoo) and people won’t think the way you want them to (Waaah). Stop trying to convert people to your atheist religion this is America everyone has a right to their opinion on God or lack thereof. Maybe if you had more of a life and felt secure in your opinions you would be so desperate to convert people to your religion to validate yourself. Stop being a missionary believe what you want let others believe what they want this is about equal rights not your obsession with your religion. Yu are worse than a Mormon. Fundamentalists!

  • getreal

    @schlukitz: I have no need to win the hearts and minds of people who let their personal childhood baggage hinder the movement besides we already have boo-hoo religion hurt me’s vote on this issue. Neither of the posters I responded to do anything no politics no activism so really who cares what they think. They are either too apathetic or too scared to actually do the work of doing the outreach or having the uncomfortable conversations and crunching the data. So feel free to tantrum and spend your time fantasizing about an America with no religion. I can guarantee you no one really cares what think but hey whatever it takes to get you through the day. Good luck to you.

  • Bill Perdue

    @getreal: getsevenwithgaymen, just who is it you plan on ignoring. Be specific. You’ve made the same statements about me, Charles Mueller and a dozen or so others by a conservative count.

    You claim we’re broken, imitating the bigotry of scum like the most holy reverends Donnie McClurkin and Pat Robertson.

    You say we’re do nothings because we post at Queerty. (And if that’s the case what are you doing here, little Church Lady. Your only activism consists in apologizing for other bigots like Obama, telling us to give him time and reminding us that he’s busy with his racist oil war in South Asia and playing lapdog to the looter rich.)

    You claim that we had an awful time as children just like Dobson and that we’re extremists out to poison society, just like Palin.

    You’re a 100% christian missionary and that’s 100% revolting. When we reply to your idiocies you invariably turn on the waterworks and claim we’re being mean to you and trying to suppress you right to be ignorant and superstitious (freedom of religion).

    And that’s just the mild stuff. Anyone who disagrees with your mission to convert gay men is branded a child molester or someone deliberately trying to spread AIDS.

    What a piece of offal you are, getsevenwithgaymen.

    Heres just some of the hardcore chirster bigotry you’ve spewed at Queerty.

    http://www.queerty.com/morning-goods-colter-johnson-20090203/ People can to look at comment 7 where you assume the missionary position and bait tallskin, accusing him of being a pederast.

    http://www.queerty.com/michael-lucas-takes-on-black-porn-stars-not-in-that-way-20090327/ Go down to comment 254. This is where you claim there’s a plot by African American to AA gay men to spread HIV/AIDs. It’s pretty sick stuff. You surely don’t think that bigoted lies like that will make it easier for you to convert or seduce gay men to your bizarre, adopted lifestyle.

    By the way there are lots of real Americans who violently disagree with your superstition and ignorance.

    “Christianity…(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man.” Thomas Jefferson

    “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? …superstition, bigotry, and persecution.” James Madison

    “Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity” Thomas Paine

    “Lighthouses are more useful than churches” Benjamin Franklin

    But never fear, Donnie McClurkin and Rich Warren agree with you about the importance of being the best little christer you can.

    You’re straight, you’re an Obamabot, you do very little but lie and make bigoted comments and defend sell out Democrats. Your other comments are extraordinarily opaque (I’ll save you the trouble – that means you’re almost as smart as a turnip) and display not only ignorance about gay men and our lives but the typical bigotry of straight people who come here to tell us how to act and what to think. “Dipshit” indeed.

    Why are you even here? The last thing we need it to be bothered by another lying jebbuz jumper.

  • Bill Perdue

    Bill Perdue is bad, has bad breath, has no friends, is indigent, unloved and lives in his car, etc. in five, four, three, two, one.

  • schlukitz


    While my remarks were not directed at you but were in response to Tank, I am not at all surprised that you would take it upon yorself to respond to me in the dismissive and condescending manner in which you have.

    I feel that your cavalier, I could give a good shit less attitude about other human beings, attitude precisely reflects the attitude of the Roman Catholic Church who committed horrible crimes and atrocities against mankind for the past two-thousand years and yet act as if there should be no need for them to apologize for any of their heinous actions.

    I have no need to win the hearts and minds of people who let their personal childhood baggage hinder the movement

    That’s a straw man my dear. My childhood experiences in no way hinders the movement. In fact, freed of the baggage of religion, I feel that I have been a far more effective tool in the movement than religious zealots like you,who feel that they must defend, at all costs, the castle, each and every time someone says anything that is perceived to be a threat to your religious freedom and right to blaspheme innocent people. I would suggest that it is your deeply held religious beliefs that do more harm to the movement than anything else.

    besides we already have boo-hoo religion hurt me’s vote on this issue

    For a person brought up in a religion that demands that respect be shown to it, you don’t show much of that respect for others, do you? I can see very clearly now how well the “Turn the other cheek” philosophy serves people like like yourself. It give you a second opportunity to give them another slap if the first one did not succeed in shutting them the fuck up.

    Neither of the posters I responded to do anything no politics no activism so really who cares what they think

    Do you have any factual proof of that? Are you having them tailed by a private investigator who reports to you on their comings and goings and their political activities? You’ve bugged their clothing? Concealed micro cameras in their homes. What? What?

    They are either too apathetic or too scared to actually do the work of doing the outreach or having the uncomfortable conversations and crunching the data

    You, no doubt, have a crystal ball that allows you to get into their minds and ascertain what their motivations or lack of them are. You must either be a psychic or psychiatrist. If the latter, where are your papers?

    So feel free to tantrum and spend your time fantasizing about an America with no religion

    I have a glorious fantasy. If we had no religions, we most likely would not have DOMA. If we had no religion, we most likely would not have had Prop. 8. If we had no religion, we probably would not have DADT. If we had no religion, we of the LGBT community would all be free to marry the partner of our choice in all 50 States of the Union. If we had no religion, bi-national, same-sex couples would be able to bring their spouses to America to be with them just like straight people…and just as you can. Are you beginning to get the picture yet?

    I can guarantee you no one really cares what think

    I kind of got that from the first sentence you wrote. What puzzles me, however, is that if this is really so, then why did you bother to respond to a post that was not directed at you?

  • Religion_Hurts

    I’m not an Atheist. I would have to prove there isn’t a God. I can’t. I can’t prove there is one, either.

    THE TRUTH: I don’t know. Neither do you. That’s okay.

    If I thought someone did “know” I’d find out – some how. Nobody knows. When you understand that you can use your mind to create a beautiful life. Just think of the possibilities …

  • Michael

    I’m up for it. I’m up for anything that takes a stand and raises a holler against any kind of discrimination.

    But, to the original reporter…it helps to have your facts straight. The first gay march on Washington, D.C. was October 11, 1987, not 1977. It’s twenty year anniversary, not thirty. Just giving you a heads up.

    Hell, I wasn’t more than five years old, and I still know that. It’s called research.

  • TANK


    You’re no different than the fundamentalists you decry, except you disagree with your church (roman catholic church) on gay rights. But that disagreement gives them legitimacy as you wear your faith like gawdy jewelry, and appeal to the same sources they do in affirming them.

    And where is this polling data? And I already explained that some movement isn’t coming from religious values, but secular ones. Those religious “values” aren’t particularly religious values, for one; and historically, only change when there’s a radical shift in secular public perception. Religion evolves to meet public attitudes so it can “survive”; that’s how it works. The roman catholic church didn’t consult the bible to discover the authenticity of evolution–instead, realizing it didn’t want to make the same mistake it did with galileo (and couldn’t) which scarred its reputation permanently, it adapted. Religion has been the protector of conservativism in maintaining traditional social values–hence the prominence of the role of ritual. Enlightenment values are responsible for just about every progressive social movement and right we have (whether it be free speech, freedom of religion–to feminism and the gay rights movement). Even the civil rights movement and the role churches played as a social network came about through the discovery of human dignity and basic moral equality of all men in the enlightenment as evidenced by each speech given by every civil rights leader…not, in saying that, quoting scripture, but the founders of this country.

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