SNIP SNIP

What’s All This About The Government Wanting American Teenagers To Get Circumcised?

CircumcisionCircumcision remains a passionate topic for those who feel the procedure either notably improves longterm health or is a less offensive way of saying genital mutilation. Now for the first time, the federal government has placed a horse in the race.

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) have released an official report draft and recommendation, coming out in strong favor of all boys getting snipped.

The language in the report is delicate, and stops short of saying definitively that parents should have their sons circumcised.

But the CDC’s Dr. Jonathan Mermin, who oversees the agency’s programs on HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases, put it bluntly that, “the scientific evidence is clear that the benefits outweigh the risks.”

Their report is seven years in the making, and is a reaction to several similar studies in Africa that found circumcision to be impactful in fighting AIDS.

Rates of circumcision in the U.S. have been on the decline lately, so it will be interesting to see if this recommendation will have any effect on the future penises of America. It does seem to contradict a previous study that found circumcision doesn’t help gay men in the Western world much, but the new report seems to be focused on straight boys. Kinda hard to tell if an infant is straight, though.

The report also says that “doctors should start telling sexually active teenage boys who aren’t circumcised that if they have the surgery, they can reduce their risk of contracting HIV and other sexually transmitted infections from their female partners,” but what about gay teenagers?

Also — teenage circumcision? Really?

What do you think — to snip or not to snip?

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111 Comments

  • Wicked Dickie

    I was born with 10 finger, 10 toes and a foreskin. No one is cutting it off.

  • Ladbrook

    For the life of me, I can’t figure out why the American medical establishment is so damned obsessed with circumcision. European countries (and European men) seem quite content with their foreskins, so why are so many doctors in the US so anxious to chop up every male infant they come in contact with? It’s insanity.

    My current BF in uncut. He’s 61 and for whatever reason his parents chose not to chop the edges off when he was born. He and I are both incredibly grateful for that unusual choice.

  • tham

    @Wicked Dickie:

    It’s not just HIV, penis cancer is pretty much unheard of with circumcised men…uncircumcised men penis cancer is an issue. HPV is a bigger problem with uncircumcised men….

    The list goes on and on….

    You’re an adult, not saying you should do it…but I’d be remiss to think a parent would want to risk their child’s wellbeing after knowing the odds and satitcs.

  • Garth

    Maybe so all males will look Jewish ? Who know ?

  • vive

    @tham, penile cancer is EXTREMELY rare.

    To see how crazy you are really being: You would have to circumcise 150,000 boys to prevent JUST ONE SINGLE case of penile cancer. The other 149,000 boys would be circumcised unnecessarily.

    And for HPV there is a vaccine, which is better than chopping off body parts.

  • vive

    @Ladbrook: “I can’t figure out why the American medical establishment is so damned obsessed with circumcision.”

    I agree. A number of other Western countries have recently found that there isn’t any net benefit to routine circumcision, which makes it quite obvious that this “finding” is biased – of course that is what a bunch of American doctors who already had their kids circumcised WOULD recommend.

    In my own experience – when I immigrated to the U.S., the first urologist I saw (for something completely unrelated)just kept wanting to chop it off for no reason. They really are obsessed with it.

  • NiceNCool1

    Fuck No. Any protection someone gets by being cut is negligible, and proper condom use is FAR more protective without a performing a hatchet job on your junk.

  • Thomathy

    Well, the reality is that the prevalence of circumcision in the US is almost entirely due to the efforts of a man who became famous and very rich because of cereal. Ever heard of Kellogs? Yes, that Kellog. He was a very religious man (Seventh-day adventist), and advocated circumcision as a treatment for masturbation. He also advocated applying phenol to girls’ clitorises as a treatment for masturbation.

    Oddly, only one of those methods of mutilation caught on. I guess parents couldn’t be convinced that applying carbolic acid to the genitals of their daughters was good and decent. Or something.

    In any case, circumcision became really popular in the US (and by association, for whatever reason, Canada) and remained relatively rare everywhere else for more or less obvious reasons.

    Ever since then, people (mostly Americans) have been trying for a long time to find reasons why circumcision is a good-thing™. It is true, it seems, that with less mucousal cells (such as those found on the foreskin) there is less permeability in the skin for infectious agents and that the calloused circumcised penis is less permeable to infectious agents. So much so that, in individuals living in countries with pandemic levels of HIV, poor hygiene and other confounding factors (like compliance with use and availability of condoms), circumcision can offer a benefit, even a significant benefit.

    Is that same benefit conferred where HIV transmission levels (and levels of transmission of other STIs) are relatively low? Well, probably not really. And does the benefit outweigh the risks? I think that it probably becomes a matter of personal choice for the individual who is going to be circumcised.

    And that last sentence is probably the most important. It should be up to individuals. Not only are those under the age of consent the least likely members of society to be carrying and transmitting STIs, there are no babies having sex. The choice, it would stand to reason, as it’s an elective surgery, can be an informed choice by a teen and their parents if any parent or any teen would like to have such a conversation. Which, I admit is highly unlikely, but no more unlikely than the conferred benefit of circumcision to help any given American.

    And for those who will make the, frankly, strange personal hygiene argument, the hygiene of others isn’t generally your concern and if it ever becomes so, you can always choose not to sleep with the unhygienic person, foreskin or no.

  • mokuhulu

    Penile cancer is caused by the same mechanism as cervical cancer, HPV. The incidence increases in proportion to the numbers of sex partners reported. This is the other side of the coin for the argument to circumcise to protect the girls. Give kids the HPV inoculation and let them choose whether to circ. or not for themselves as they get older. As far as I know, Penile cancer is essentially unknown before sexual maturity. The cause is known and it is a virus NOT circumcision or the lack thereof.

  • VampDC

    Why do people care about this issue over and over again?!

    If you want your child to be circumcised – go for it.

    If you don’t want your child to be circumcised – cool.

    I was circumcised but oddly have a good amount of forskin still that people don’t even think I am cut. But the point is… I don’t care!

  • PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS

    I can go either way with the turtlenecked peen………..As long as the guy keeps everything neat and tidy the 4skin can add some fun to fun time……….

    However if you want a nice career consider being a Moil (they are the Rabbi’s who perform the snip and tucks) My friends had their son shipped at the house and the Rabbi was running late.Once he arrived, he advised he just finished up his 4th snip prior to arriving for our event. At $650.00 per snip!

    Q: How does a Moil make their money?
    A: Mostly on tips………. *readers groan*

  • TampaBayTed

    Also in the CDC’s report is: The scientific evidence is clear that the benefits outweigh the risks,” said the CDC’s Dr. Jonathan Mermin. “The first thing it’s important to know is that male circumcision has been associated with a 50 to 60 percent reduction of H.I.V. transmission, as well as a reduction in sexually transmitted infections such as herpes, bacterial vaginosis and the human papilloma virus (H.P.V.), which causes penile and cervical cancer,” Do you know how difficult it is for parents to have their children vaccinated with the HPV vaccine? Many think that it makes their kids want to have sex. Then there are the crazies who are anti-vaccine for any type of vaccine.

  • Tobi

    I’m a Brit. so male circumcision is only done on this side of the pond when there’s a genuine medical necessity. There’s currently headline campaigns here trying to put a stop to female genital mutilation (FGM) which is also a criminal offence in the UK. Do parents have to pay a surgeon, hospital bills, et al to get children circumcised in the USA? If so, it might explain why your medical establishment is keener on it than we are!

  • Aromaeus

    Everyone keeps talking about HIV and higher risk of contracting STIs but like…the majority of the male population is UNCIRCUMCISED and some of the lowest rates of HIV infection are in countries where circumcision is rare. I’m uncircumcised and when I was in school my health class didn’t even talk about how to clean an uncircumcised penis. Thankfully my mom explained it to me long before that but I think instead of trying to snip young boys maybe we should look at our access to health information and invest in comprehensive sex education for EVERYONE not just straight people.

  • Gothrykke

    Am I the only one who feels these studies leave out some very important details? I seem to remember that most men for the past century in America have been circumcised to the point it’s become culturally desirable to see one over an uncut penis. Yet, funny thing, HIV seemed to have no problem killing all of those penises.

    How about, since there’s correlation between cutting off tits and preventing breast cancer, they recommend double mastectomies for all women. With baby formula, it’s not like tits serve any useful purpose anymore. So why not chop them off? It might, like, slim-to-none margin of error of a chance, prevent breast cancer. Within a generation or three, mutilated chests might not be rare, but vogue. It comes with an added bonus, too, no more staring at women’s chests.

    What say you, CDC, cut them titties off!

  • petensfo

    Ridiculous… the recommendation is based on a study in Africa! The USA is not Africa. And it’s absurd that a child has no say in the matter.

    Obviously, if a person doesn’t stay clean, there will be issues, but that’s true cut or uncut. Americans are beginning to awaken to the fact that they have been fed a monstrous bunch of bull on this topic & gratefully moving away from this unnecessary practice.

    Ooh, genitals; scary!!! Most of the rest of the world is uncut & doing just fine & we likely have better access to hygiene than most.

  • I'm Black, and HIV-Positive.

    I’m HIV positive, and my penis is, and always been to my conscious knowledge definitely circumcised thank you very much. So saying circumcision helps cut down on std transmission doesn’t help unless you explain how. And I just paraphrased the article, because I don’t think the article even was that forthcoming with information to disseminate. It just sounds like agenda. It kind of smacks of, “Because I said so!”

    But the Brits have beautiful uncircumcised penises in my humble opinion. Sometimes I am seriously in the mood for their porn over our (American) porn. And the Czech men? Oh my God! Don’t get me started. I just ran across this beautiful white man today online named Jakub Stefano. A Czech contest winner who now does all manner of modeling work. He also goes by Jakub Bandoch, but the beauty of this Czech man’s uncut penis (along with his other attributes) makes its own argument. And we are gay men afterall. If you told me a bigger penis would cut down on std transmission I would probably fuck you up for being so belligerently annoying. Know what I mean?

  • I'm Black, and HIV-Positive.

    @Garth: Yeah Garth, me too. I share that same sentiment. I heard that circumcising young boys started as a point in following with traditional Jewish customs. Which is a bit angering to me considering I was circumcised even though I’m Christian, but what can you do?

  • I'm Black, and HIV-Positive.

    You won’t believe the statement Queerty isn’t allowing me to print. I am misspelling key words here on purpose to try, and get around the censors. Here goes:

    4skin appears to ad to the girt too. I luv seeing that onion skin slide down over a nice mshrm hd cok.

  • I'm Black, and HIV-Positive.

    @Thomathy: It’s scary the amount of influence our country has, and we seriously don’t have all the answers in the first place. Sometimes it seems to amount to bullying. Look at the war on drugs, by correlation. Are uncircumcised “kcoc”s, and marijuana really so bad?

  • Adamw

    Balanitis, phimosis, paraphimosis…all issues that I ROUTINELY deal with in the Emergency Department with uncircumcised men. So, you guys can spout off all day long about how circumcision is mutilation but until you see and smell an infected penis head you really have no idea.

  • Tobi

    @Adamw: Bleeding gums, tooth decay, bad breath, mouth ulcers, tongue cancer… you so can’t trust people to clean their teeth, huh? It should be compulsory to have all your teeth out at 16 so you can be fitted with a nice set of hygienic rinsible plastic dentures, don’t you think? ;)

    • Adamw

      Tell me what cleanliness has to do with phimosis? Once somebody gets phimosis the likelihood of getting balanitis goes up. It’s pretty hard to clean something that you can’t get access to.

  • Ms Urethra Johnson

    Young girls should ALL have their breasts removed to prevent breast cancer… adults should have all their teeth removed to prevent cavities… I’ll keep my INTACT and sensitive schlong thank you very much… Most “dudes” that don’t like condoms are CUT… STOP mutilating the next generation… carry on…

  • Virge

    Expanding their logic about Circumcision

    * Cutting off fingers will reduce masturbation
    * Early dental extractions will prevent cavities
    * Complete Hair removal prevents body lice.

    Fuck anyone telling me what I need to do with my weenie — especially anyone affiliated with government!

  • rickhfx

    New York Baby Infected With Herpes After Metzitza B’peh Circumcision Rite
    Doctors Treat Third Case Tied to Controversial Practice

    http://forward.com/articles/191918/new-york-baby-infected-with-herpes-after-metzitza/

    Baby Dies From Herpes After Controversial Circumcision Ritual, Report Says

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/06/baby-dies-circumcision-ritual-herpes_n_1322420.html

    I say let adults decide for themselves if they want to have it done to themselves, no one has the right to impose it on someone else even if it is their child. No surgery is just simple surgery without risk.
    I know a Dr. that did a child only to find out the “simple surgery” resulted in finding our the baby boy was a hemophilic,
    talk about a very scary bloody mess, the Dr said he never did a circumcision again.
    There is also a very good documentary on a child that the surgery went wrong and the child was then raised as a girl, the study and follow up were made up to support that every thing was ok and the “girl” was “normal” it was not the case, the child grew up a hot mess and as an adult committed suicide. The parents never forgave themselves.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw24j0Litlc

  • rickhfx

    Dr.’s make good money doing genital mutilation on boys and girls, if it is not legal for girls it should not be legal for boys, unless you don’t believe in equal rights.

  • Ditamo

    @Adamw: I can understand what you are trying to say, but phimosis is an anomaly, it’s by far not something common, and thus should nor be a reason to justify circumcision for everyone. And people who do have that anomaly, circumcision should be an option, as it is currently. As for the other two you mentioned, both are from lack of care, so as long as you educate people on their hygiene and how to take care of their penis to not lesion it, circumcision still isn’t an optimal option. As for how circumcision helps decrease the transmission of certain STI’s, the simple and more sensible solution is to use condoms. Condoms not only prevents STI’s but also prevents unwanted pregnancies and, to be sincere, it’s just more hygienic, who wants cum all over the floor, bed sheets, in your ass or face? I mean some do, but if you don’t it’s a nice way to just keep it clean.

  • Ditamo

    *should not be*

    (Queerty should let us be able to edit our comments, its annoying not being able to. Also I preferred when we could vote on comments, why did you guys take it out again?)

  • rickhfx

    Circumcision of Males / Male Genital Mutilation (MGM)
    The Canadian Children’s Rights Council position is that there is no medical benefit to the routine genital mutilation (circumcision) of any children (defined by U.N. as those under 18 years of age). Further, all Canadian children, both male and female, should be protected by the criminal laws of Canada with regards to this aggravated assault.

    http://www.canadiancrc.com/Circumcision_Genital_Mutilation_Male-Female_Children.aspx

  • Greg Garavani

    Clearly no one from CDC has had uncut dick, I was born with my skin and will die that way. If you’re born that way, keep it that way!!

  • rickhfx

    Removing finger nails and toe nails would help stop the spread of disease. Removing eye lids would stop people getting a sty. Removing teeth would stop people getting gum disease and tooth decay.
    Removing a women’s clit would stop her having multiple sex partners and lots of sex, spreading disease.
    Removing all body and head hair by electrolysis would prevent lice and crabs.
    Lobotomies stop people from thinking for themselves. Who needs a nose we can breath through our mouth. Two eyes could be one eye too much. Remove women’s breasts, no more breast cancer. we do have baby formula now. Remove a women’s and man’s reproductive organs when they no longer can or want children prevent stds, Or like the preachers say kill all gays, no more aids.
    Ears just lead to skin cancer, remove them we only need the ear hole, sun just leads to skin cancer, we should never go out side and remove all windows from building, and homes.
    Crazy people love crazy ideas and can always justify them.

  • jmmartin

    If I had a foreskin I would kill to keep it.

  • darkanser

    Reading this article, I’m reminded of how this issue is so fetishized. I’ve known gay men who act like uncut men are somehow deformed. Talk about irony!!I haven’t had any complaints or, at least, no one has said anything directly to me. I suspect a lot of Jewish women balk at sleeping with uncut men — or so I’ve heard. As far as circumcision being linked to reduced risk of STDs, I gather it’s primarily an issue of hygiene. I’ve heard about adult men getting circumsised when I was a teen and it was suggested to me that I might consider such a procedure. I can only imagine the recovery. Clearly I never had it done and I cannot imagine why they thought that was so important.

  • winemaker

    I DON’T KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN, BUT I NEED TO BEGIN SOMEWHERE. SINCE WHEN IS IT THE RIGHT OF DOCTORS TO AMPUTATE A HEALTHY PIECE OF A BABY BOY OR YOUNG MAN TO SATISFY THE CDC ‘RULES’ OR ‘SUGGESTION’ THAT FORESKINS ARE A HARBINGER OF DISEASES. OH, I GET IT, THE MEDICAL PROFESSION, HEADED BY ‘JEWS’ SEEM TO KNOW WHAT’S BEST FOR ALL YOUNG BOYS. I’M CHRISTIAN, BORN IN A CATHOLIC HOSPITAL. MY FATHER WAS CIRCUMCISED, BUT FORTUNATELY THE ‘BUTCHERS’ DIDN’T TOUCH ME. THIS BULLSHIT THAT IT IS CLEANER AND PREVENTS DISEASE IS HOGWASH. WHAT PLANET ARE YOU ON? AS A GAY MAN AND AN ADVOCATE OF GENITAL INTEGRITY, AKA ‘NO CIRCUMCISION’, I CAN’T BELIEVE THE USA ISN’T AS ENLIGHTENED AS THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES REGARDING THIS ISSUE. IN THE GAY COMMUNITY, THERE IS OFTEN A PREFERENCE FOR ‘CUT’ OR ‘UNCUT’ MEN. I PREFER MY PARTNERS TO BE LIKE ME, ‘INTACT’. I’VE KNOWN MEN WITH TERRIBLE SEXUAL DYSFUNCTION BECAUSE THEY’RE CIRCUMCISED. AWHILE AGO, I WAS SHOWERING AFTER WORKING OUT AT MY LOCAL GYM. THE SHOWERS WERE CROWDED. I RECALL STANDING NEXT TO AN ATTRACTIVE MAN WHO WAS GIVING ME THE EYE OVER. I WAS FLATTERED, YET KIND OF NERVOUS. I RECALLED RETRACTING MY FORESKIN TO WASH BENEATH IT. I FINISHED SHOWERING AND RETURNED TO MY LOCKER TO GET DRESSED. IT TURNS OUT THIS GUY HAD HIS LOCKER NEAR MINE. HE BOLDLY TOLD ME ‘I WAS VERY LUCKY’. WHEN I ASKED HIM WHAT HE MEANT, HE DROPPED HIS TOWEL AND SHOWED ME HIS CIRCUMCISION SCAR. I ADMIRED HIM FOR HIS NERVE AND REMARKED HE HAD SOME FORESKIN LEFT, EG; THE BASTARDS DID A HALF JOB. WE TALKED AWHILE AND I GAVE HIM MY PHONE NUMBER. I’M INVOLVED IN A LOCAL GROUP OF MEN RESTORING THEIR FORESKINS THROUGH VARIOUS METHODS, MAINLY STRETCHING. HE CALLED ME LATER AND I GAVE HIM A FEW RESOURCES TO POSSIBLY RESTORE WHAT HE WAS ROBBED OF. I MENTIONED THAT SINCE HE’D BEEN LEFT WITH SOME FORESKIN, HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET SOME COVERAGE THROUGH STRETCHING ETC. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO MUTILATE A YOUNG DEFENSELESS BABY TO SATISFY A ‘LOOK’. IF THE GUY WANTS TO GET CIRCUMCISED LATER IN LIFE, WHEN HE’S AN ADULT, THAT’S HIS CHOICE, UNTIL THEN, LEAVE HIM INTACT 11

  • jason smeds

    The CDC is nuts. Not only did it botch the Ebola crisis with its incorrect advice, it now is giving incorrect advice regarding male circumcision. It needs to STFU. Either that or it should be de-funded, thus ensuring that ridiculous doctors like Mermin are not wasting our time with their statements.

    There is absolutely NO reason for getting circumcised unless you have a foreskin that is causing you pain for being too tight on the tip.

  • jason smeds

    I forgot to add that perhaps there is a financial reason for the CDC advising baby males to get circumcised. How much money do these doctors make from circumcisions, and are some of these doctors employed at the CDC?

  • QJ201

    Any story on circumcision always brings out the c*cksuckers with a foreskin fetish

  • vive

    @Adamw, you suffer from observation bias. What you encounter in the hospital are the rare exceptions. You don’t see all the healthy ones.

  • vive

    @Adamw, also, phimosis are often (1) a consequence of uninformed U.S. parents and U.S. doctors attempting to forcibly retract the foreskin of small boys before they have detached from the glans, or (2) misdiagnosed – many boys’ foreskins naturally only detach from the glans in their teens; many are unnecessarily operated on before then for something that is natural.

    Also, I find your characterization of foreskins as stinky and disease-ridden to be at best [email protected]

  • Mykaels

    I am circumcised. Amazingly, I am not traumatized. I still get hard, still orgasm, still enjoy sex, and don’t hate my parents for it.

    I have dated guys who were cut and who were uncut. I could care less. Makes zero difference. To say “the medical community is obsessed” is kinda short sighted. Many people, medical and non medical, are obsessed with it: medical, non medical, tricks, boyfriends, Americans, Europeans, Canadians.

    “I am soo glad my parents did!!!”… why?
    “I am soo glad my parents didn’t!”.. why?

    I am sooo glad I have a dick, and my boyfriend has a dick. The end.

  • Merv

    A marginal medical benefit is all that proponents of routine are claiming. You can’t make major, permanent modifications to someone’s body without his consent for only marginal benefits. It’s immoral and unethical.

  • vive

    Whatever happened to “First, do no harm”?

  • Merv

    Oops, the first sentence above should read: A marginal medical benefit is all that proponents of routine *circumcision* are claiming.

    I wish the Queerty commenting system allowed editing.

  • Celtic

    This matter has reached the level of the totally absurd. Why is the CDC waging a crusade on this? First of all, IF a boy is to be circumcised it should occur during infancy. The CDC is obsessed with having male circumcised, and I believe the CDC is way off base on this. The CDC claims it is better for protecting against HIV/AIDS. Well, I have lost a number of friends to AIDS and I cannot recall one of them who was uncircumcised (uncut). Someone needs to rein in the CDC and pull them off this obsessive track. Zealots simply create chaos and do a great harm in the process.

  • mike5929

    As long as our medical system is fee for service this will be the recommendation. It is an easy $1,000 for a doc to charge for an easy procedure

    • Celtic

      @VampDC: The issue here, as I see, is that the federal government or any government should NOT dictate such medical practices.

  • Stache99

    @vive: That’s so outdated. If that truly was the case then Plastic Surgery would be outlawed.

  • vive

    @Stache99, well, yes, cosmetic surgery is potentially harmful, so for ethical reasons cosmetic surgery is not recommended as a standard of care for cosmetic aging by, say, the CDC. Also, from an ethical point of view, you can make an exception for elective procedures, but infant circumcision isn’t elective.

    • Celtic

      @Thomathy: Hygiene is taught. Skin it back and clean it. Been doing it for years. Some parents are simply too squeamish to teach their own children about this simple matter of cleanliness. As to STDs, circumcised men get them as readily as the uncircumcised. As to penile sensitivity, 40% of penile sensitivity is lost through circumcision. It sounds to me like we have a new “Kellogg” in the CDC. For some reason, this country gets tossed around and about by zealots who have some unsubstantiated fetish. We pride ourselves as honoring freedom while we continue to invade and intrude the very basics of private life. This is one more attempt at government over reach.

  • Random

    I’ve said this before but it bears repeating – if circumcision was something that only *adult* males could elect to have done, the practice would die out within a generation or so.

    There are certain health conditions, such as phimosis, where it is required, but generally it’s an unnecessary operation. In European countries where it’s not routinely carried out, HIV, other STIs, and penile cancer are no more widespread than in the USA.

  • vive

    @mike5929: “As long as our medical system is fee for service this will be the recommendation. It is an easy $1,000 for a doc to charge for an easy procedure.”

    Exactly.

    They betray the real reason for this recommendation in their language urging insurance coverage of the procedure. A number of health plans, as well as Medicaid in several states, have stopped paying for unnecessary infant circumcisions, so of course something had to be done quickly to shore up the cash cow.

  • sesfm

    Yet another example of how society values females more than males. Female genital mutilation is totally unacceptable, but male circumcision is encouraged. Because, in the eyes of society, males are inherently born physically deformed and psychologically evil.

  • justyouandi

    Fourteen years ago, at the age of 27, I chose to have a circumcision, and it was for purely cosmetic reasons. Not only have I never regretted it, I consider it one of my better life decisions. The procedure itself was almost painless. I had to keep the dressings dry for a few days, so that was inconvenient, but for the most part, the whole thing was a “gentle breeze”. There is absolutely NO reduction in sensation, contrary to what all the no-circ people say, and I lubricate naturally just as I did before. I didn’t even bother reading all the other comments here because I know that trying to convince someone who is practically an evangelical fundamentalist on this issue is an exercise in futility. After I had this done, two friends and a cousin did it too, and they all have had the same great outcome that I did. The “science” on this issue is really politics, I think, but I’m not going to get into that hornets nest. But I now have one beautiful piece of meat that gives me great pleasure in all the ways it ever did and more.

  • MrEguy

    Circumcision is not normal. It is a sick, cruel, degenerate mutilation of a crucial part of the future man’s body. The day of reckoning has come. American doctors can no longer escape responsibility for their sexual violation of baby boys.

  • JimmyJ

    LOL. I’m only glad most guys my generation are cut. NEVER, and I mean NEVER will I be with an uncut man. It’s not even up for discussion!

    • Random

      @JimmyJ: That’s your choice, but do be clear that it’s not a rational decision.

  • justyouandi

    It is, and was, a VERY rational decision. I’m also rational enough to know you can never be convinced of that, Random, so JimmyJ and I will just be content in what may be our superior critical thinking skills and let you continue to believe this folly.

  • vive

    @justyouandi, you yourself said that it was for cosmetic reasons; in other words, for esthetics. Esthetic values are by definition not rational, but subjective and emotional. Your emotional posts just underline this.

  • Random

    @justyouandi: How does deciding to have a part of your body removed for ‘cosmetic reasons’, mean you display ‘superior critical thinking’?

  • justyouandi

    vive, I don’t know what “emotional posts” of mine you’re referring to. If you are reading my two posts as emotional, it is you putting the emotion into it …. not I. And what’s wrong with esthetics, i.e. trying to look your best? I had orthodontia to make my teeth look better, even though they worked perfectly fine. I had a big mole removed from my face only for cosmetic reasons. I had quite a lot of foreskin covering up a beautiful head that no one ever saw. So I had it removed. What’s emotional and irrational about that? As I said, there have been no negative effects of my circumcision, as the no-circ people insists there has to be. I am merely, here, sharing my experience that happens to be contrary to what those of you, who appear to have an agenda, are presenting. Please try to be a bit more tolerant of those who have differing opinions.

    • Random

      @justyouandi: **I had quite a lot of foreskin covering up a beautiful head that no one ever saw. So I had it removed**

      Presumably, the foreskin retracted when you had an erection, so your sex partners would have been able to see the head of your penis then, right?

      And claiming to have ‘superior critical thinking’ *is* a rather emotional claim to make in its arrogance. In a discussion, if make your point(s) without implying you are in some way better than people with whom you disagree, then you will come across as far more cool-headed and rational.

  • justyouandi

    Random, it’s because I THINK without blindly following the conventional wisdom.

  • justyouandi

    My reference to superior critical thinking skills was meant as tongue-in-cheek. I keep forgetting that my sense of humor often does not translate well in a chat room to people who don’t know me, and wouldn’t see the humor in it that my friends would see. So I apologize for coming across as a little arrogant. It was not my intention.

    • Random

      @justyouandi: When a foreskin doesn’t retract to reveal the glans, the condition is known as phimosis. Doctors can be reluctant to diagnose it as such, as during the examination, they don’t see the penis in an erect state so don’t perceive there to be a problem.

      But really, this is beside the point. As Vive states above, you *chose* to have your penis modified having done your research and made a decision you were comfortable with, which is entirely different to neo-natal cutting which gives no voice to the infant and changes their body irrevocably.

      I’m glad you are happy with your penis now, but the fact is, in countries where circumcision is not routinely practised for cultural and religious reasons, the demand for adult circumcisions for cosmetic purposes is vanishingly small. And that’s because the vast majority of men recognise that a penis with a foreskin is the way a penis is supposed to be.

  • justyouandi

    No, Random, the foreskin did not fully retract with an erection; only when it was pulled back. And it was nothing I lost any sleep over, or spent much time thinking about. So it was not causing any stress. I am always looking for ways to improve myself; taking piano lessons and learning to speak Italian are the most recent attempts to make myself better and more interesting. Orthodontia, having hair permanently removed from my shoulders, and this circumcision are the only things I have done to make myself look better, other than going to the gym to stay in good shape, and practicing good grooming habits. Circumcision is getting a LOT of bad press, and I just don’t believe all this stuff. I did quite a bit of research before I had it done and the end result has been even better than I expected. I am in a unique position to know more about it than most people, so take it for what it’s worth to you.

    I was typing my last submission when you posted your last comment, so I didn’t see yours until after I had posted mine. Although I acknowledged my poor judgement in using the “superior” phrase, I don’t see how you categorize it as emotional. Might that be your way of diminishing my decision to have the circumcision as one based in something as frivolous as “emotion”? That comes across as somewhat dismissive to me.

  • Random

    @justyouandi: In that case, you had phimosis, so your procedure wasn’t done ‘purely for cosmetic reasons’, as you stated earlier. Even in mild cases of that condition (which yours may well have been from what you say) there is a risk of the frenulum being ruptured during sex, so there’s a medical basis on which to opt for circumcision.

    What I, and many others, both here and elsewhere, are against, is *routine* circumcision, in which the child has no say over a procedure that cannot be reversed. This is quite different to making that decision oneself as an adult – as you did. Indeed, my view is that *non-medical* circumcisions in children should prohibited, but if an adult wishes to have the operation then he should be free to do so.

    • Celtic

      @youa@justyouandi: Your circumcision was done as an adult male by your election; not as an infant without any say. It is likely you have not lost any sensation because your circumcision was done in adulthood and the nerve endings had fully matured. The 40% loss of sensation as a result of infant circumcision is a percentage reached through research; not seem wild hair “guesstimate”.

  • justyouandi

    Two doctors that I saw said I did not have phimosis. With an erection my head was only about 3/4 exposed. My older brother had been circumcised at birth, but my younger brother and I had not. I merely liked the way my older brother’s dick looked more than my own. And as to the science; I learned long ago that that which is called science is very often corrupted by politics, and I suspect that this issue may well be one of those. So I am not at all convinced in the “40% loss of sensation” argument.

    A friend who had this procedure done after I did countered an argument presented to him about the loss of sensation with the missing foreskin. He said, “So if you follow that logic, a guy with an 8″ dick is going to have twice the pleasure of foreplay than a guy with a 4″ dick, because the first guy has twice the skin surface that contain nerve endings.”

  • vive

    @justyouandi, the issue of sensitivity is really beside the point. The point is that people should have a choice, like you did. And good for you that you were able to make a choice you were happy with (although you should also admit that whether that is an “improvement” is your subjective opinion). Cosmetic surgery should never be done on anyone without their consent, which is the problem most of us have with infant circumcision. That is really not a political position on our part; it is more an issue of fundamental human rights.

  • Celtic

    @vive: Excellent point. The skin should never be pulled back until the boy reaches puberty. The penis has a natural cleaning mechanism up to that point. Then, boys should be taught about pulling back the skin to clean properly.

  • justyouandi

    Most of my head was revealed when erect, and sometimes all of it was. The doctors I saw knew this. One doctor gave me an injection into my penis to induce an erection. Although this discussion has been civil, you would not believe the way many people react when they hear what I chose to do. They are as offended as any of us would be if I loudly used the “n” word. The bottom line is, I don’t believe the “science” on this issue, just as I’ve learned that what is claimed as science on some other issues is just as wrong. And if I had a baby boy …….. yes, i would probably have him circumcised.

    • Random

      @justyouandi: Why not let your baby boy decide for himself whether he wants to have his foreskin removed, as you were able to?

  • Random

    @justyouandi: Hang on – you said earlier that you had ‘quite a lot of foreskin covering up a beautiful head that no one ever saw’ and ‘the foreskin did not fully retract with an erection’. And yet, now you’re saying ‘Most of my head was revealed when erect, and sometimes all of it was’.

    Honestly, it just sounds as if you’re making things up as you go along and you’re not going to convince anybody of the supposed merits of circumcision with your inconsistent comments.

  • justyouandi

    If you back up a little bit you will see that I said about 3/4 of my head was exposed with an erection, and that was most often the case. The foreskin usually did not fully retract, so I am saying that most often about 1/4 of the head was covered. I was countering the suggestion of phimosis. Sometimes, apparently due to other variables, all of it would be exposed. Because I have rather pronounced coronal ridge, in what ever way the foreskin got over that, it tended to stay. I don’t see the conflict or inconsistencies in those statements.

  • justyouandi

    When I said I had a beautiful head no one ever saw, that was over-stated only with the exception of sexual encounters, but I made it clear in another post that at those times, still, it usually was not fully uncovered. I assumed it was a “given” that with an erection there would be some exposure of the head. Along with an erection there is usually some stroking which changes things. As with anyone who is uncut, in the locker room and other places where nudity is expected, you won’t see the glans, whether it’s beautiful or not. You seem to be scrutinizing to find some inconsistency for some reason I don’t understand. What would my agenda be if I were making it up as I go along?

  • vive

    @justyouandi, ” As with anyone who is uncut, in the locker room and other places where nudity is expected, you won’t see the glans, whether it’s beautiful or not.”

    With all due respect, caring about whether strangers see your glans in the locker room is a bit weird. You sound like one of those dirty old men who are always hanging around naked around the lockers.

    Also, you don’t really seem to know much about how uncircumcised penises work, which makes me wonder about the veracity of your entire story about having had one before. I may be wrong, but it all seems to be made up out of thin air to advance some agenda.

  • onthemark

    @vive: “With all due respect, caring about whether strangers see your glans in the locker room is a bit weird.”

    Yeah, and he lost me quite awhile back when he made the comment: “I merely liked the way my older brother’s dick looked more than my own.”

    A bit weird indeed.

  • justyouandi

    vive, I have fallen into the trap of continuing to talk when there really was nothing more to say. I have responded to very silly comments, which makes my response just as silly. That which you are calling me out on, I was, in fact, pulling out of thin air just to have something to say. I haven’t seen my foreskin in more than 14 years, and I have spoken of it here as if it was last week! I’m 41 and, no, I don’t prance around naked in the locker room naked, but my general point is to feel the best about myself in whatever way I can anywhere I am, but I don’t obsess about it, and there is certainly a limit as to how far I will go. Having a mole removed from my face was more important to me than the circumcision. We live at a time in which people seem to identify with their grievances, and they wear those grievances on their sleeve. The no-circ people appear to be looking for some issue to give themselves victim status, and to make their lives significant by campaigning militantly against it. That may not be true of you, but I refer you back to some of the people I mentioned before who give me hell when they find out what I have done, and of my opinion of the whole issue. But, …… here I go AGAIN ….. continuing to talk in response to you when I should just shut up. I expect you will scrutinize what I have just said looking for some little comment of no real import to me just so you can in some way discredit me. I would have had just as good a life if I had kept my foreskin, but I’m glad I got rid of it. I stick by my larger point that I am in the position to know that what I hear about circumcision is, in very large part, simply not true. Someone who calls himself a scientist may well not be, and that which a real scientist says, may well be just an opinion. My having posted my very first comment was probably a mistake because I should have known I would get this, because I always do.

  • JimmyJ

    I think it’s very rational. I won’t ever let an uncut man anywhere near me! I think it looks nasty, it’s rancid and it stinks. How does it taste? I remember one guy who threw up trying to blow an uncut dick at the back of a bar. Hahaha! Served him fucking right. They’re just gross! Ugly creatures!

    I’ve had a few guys jump on me for stating publicly that I’d rather be gored to death by a herd of bison than go anywhere near a man who hasn’t been cut, and I firmly stood by what I said. By all means, wave your anteater with pride, but just do it far away from me. I’ve got a razor-sharp machete in my room if you change your mind!

  • Random

    @justyouandi: I simply flagging up the inconsistencies in your own account. Why you contradicted yourself, I don’t know, but it certainly doesn’t strengthen your argument for circumcision in anyway.

  • Random

    @justyouandi: “My having posted my very first comment was probably a mistake because I should have known I would get this, because I always do.”

    It’s because your story sounds rather odd. You obviously had some personal issues with your penis which, from what you’ve written, are somewhat difficult to comprehend, but there’s *nothing* in what you’ve said that supports a case for general circumcision for all men.

  • Random

    @JimmyJ: “I’d rather be gored to death by a herd of bison than go anywhere near a man who hasn’t been cut…”

    Again, a very odd comment that has no basis in rationality whatsoever. And any penis that hasn’t been washed is going to be unhygienic regardless of whether it’s been cut or not.

  • JimmyJ

    Oh, such a sensitive subject to you, isn’t it? Are you also an inwacktivist? LOL! I’m sorry, y’all, but I’m not sorry. A billion of you people will never make me change my mind. Nasty rancid ugly creatures, I say! Whether or not my decision is rational, I stand by what I say. Can you imagine? Me? James? Going down on an uncut penis? I too cannot, or earth as we know it would cease to exist.

    The food I eat must look AND taste good. Same goes for the penises! The uncut/”intact” penis always smells, I’ve had a few people confirm this. It’s apparently a “faint” odor after a shower, but 120 minutes later, Lord! Thank God for making whoever invented circumcision. Most butthurt on this comes from the Europeans, Latinos, uncut dudes and their partners. I don’t even know why you’re all mad because you’re in the majority. You hate being shamed for you natural state? Oh, well, I’d get used to it if I were you. My buddy gets made fun of for his naturally ginger/red hair all the time. He even dyed it blond.

    My offer on the machete still stands, by the way :)

  • Random

    @JimmyJ: It’s because the guys who are circumcised so often come out with idiotic, emotive statements like yours (‘Nasty rancid ugly creatures..’) that loses them any credibility whatsoever. A lot of men who are circumcised have to demean men who are not, as if their penis is somehow superior.

    A cut penis is not in its natural state, but as long as you’re happy with that then why put down those are uncircumcised? Any beginner psychologist will tell you that people who attack others in this way, do so in order to make themselves feel better, so it would seem you have issues around your circumcision that you have yet to resolve.

    • Celtic

      @Random: Thank you! As an uncut man who is quite happy to be that way, I was stunned by JimmyJ’s harsh, outrageous criticism of uncut men. Rancid? Really? What is this, a jar of mayonnaise? Does he think cut men can’t smell? Over the top pretentiousness demonstrates a level of insensitivity and immaturity that is sad at best.

  • JimmyJ

    I simply stated that I don’t want anything to do with uncut guys. It would have been far better had you just not replied to my comment, by saying I’m not rational. What would I possibly try to make myself feel better about? I’m extremely pleased with my “mutilation” and wouldn’t want it any other way. An uncut penis just looks like a dead caterpillar to me, and it’s just …. yuck! Don’t get me started on the dick-cheese.

    I think “a lot of circumcised men … ” say this in passing, and you just take it to heart. People love getting bent out of shape over trivial shit these days! Yes, cut men don’t have stinky genitals. I’m in shape and my thighs rarely touch when I walk, and I can go two days without a stinking penis even without a shower. Unless, of course, you’re talking about cut men who are overweight to obese. And a jar of mayonnaise is fucking tasty, so don’t you dare compare it to that thing between your legs. “Natural” this, “natural” that, meh! Who cares? I think you’re mistaking an “opinion” for an “attack”.

    Honestly, this is a waste of time because I’ll always detest foreskin. Nothing and no one will ever make me change my mind.

    • Random

      @JimmyJ: ***I simply stated that I don’t want anything to do with uncut guys.***

      You didn’t though. You went on a whole rant about how unclean and unhygenic non-circumised penises are. You called them ‘nasty rancid creatures’ and talked about someone who vomited over an uncut penis in a dark room because, according to you, of the way it smelt. You’re not just politely stating your personal preference, your venting your jaundiced opinions based on poorly informed prejudices.

      It’s simply illogical to try and claim that circumcised penises are always cleaner than ones which remain intact. ALL parts of the body require washing in order to remain clean. Perhaps a doctor needs to sit you down and explain to you that circumcised penises are not self-cleaning and are just as much in need of soap and water as those left in their natural state.

  • UpInTheGallery

    Since both choices are medically defensible, and the decision has such deeply personal effects, I think it would be more appropriate for the CDC to provide information about risks and benefits and leave it to people to make up their own minds.

    • Celtic

      @UpInTheGallery: Since circumcision most often takes place during infancy, that infant doesn’t have the opportunity to “make up his mind”. I have a lifelong Jewish friend who continues to be angry over the fact he was “cut” without being of an age to say yay or nay.

  • JimmyJ

    Well, you provoked me and pulled those mini rants out of me. I was willing to say I don’t want anything to do with you people and leave it at that, but no, you just had to. Uncircumcised penises ARE unhygienic and not a sight for sore eyes. My body just shivered with disgust!

    I have an idiot of a friend who once blew an uncut in a one-night stand and he tells me (as I’m sitting with him now after raising this subject) that the day you suck an intact dick is the day you’ll truly realize penis isn’t meant to be sucked. I just hate it though. I think it’s absolutely revolting and I won’t go anywhere near it. I don’t need to be “informed” as you claim, to know what’s attractive and what’s not. Eww! Europe and their men… Yuck!

  • justyouandi

    Random, it was never my intention to make a case for general circumcision. I wanted only to do my part in correcting the record on all this supposed “science” we keep hearing so much about. Who is better qualified to do that than a guy who had foreskin the first 27 years of his life, and now has nearly 15 years of being without it to compare? If there are any holes in the telling of my story it’s because I have tried to recall details of my experience with foreskin from what will be 15 years ago in a couple of months. I can’t imagine being more sensitive than I am now, the procedure was nearly painless, and other guys in my life who followed me in having this done all report the same experience. I knew when I submitted my first post here there would be extremists on this topic who would be unable to consider any other point of view, and cannot be taught. So be it! But there also just may be some readers who would very much appreciate hearing another point of view based on actual experience challenging the conventional wisdom. It is to those people I direct my submissions.

  • Random

    @JimmyJ: I should have realised sooner but you’re pretty obviously a troll.

  • Random

    @justyouandi: I haven’t seen any non-commissioned ‘extremists’ posting here. But I have seen people post inconsistent accounts of their own pre-and-post circumcision experiences which calls their credibility into question. I’ve also seen those who are pro-circumcision demean penises that are left in natural state – as if a cut penis inherently more hygienic and superior.

    Neither of these approaches make for a convincing argument in favour of circumcision and merely smack of the kind of fundamentalist prejudiced reasoning that is usually associated with religious fanaticism.

  • JimmyJ

    A troll? Is that what you call someone whose views are different from yours? Go snack on dick-cheese since you don’t know that we can’t all agree on the same thing. Only people who are messed up in the fucking head are so passionate about this subject. Getting all bent out of shape over things that don’t even concern you? Are you even serious? Get a hobby, get a boyfriend, get a job; just get a fucking life. Sheesh!

  • I'm Black, and HIV-Positive.

    @Stache99: Well, if isn’t the leader of GWMRAR (Gay White Men for Restoring American Razism!) You are so beyond razist in all of your commentaries around Queerty, both directly and implicitly. Maybe the government would do well to cut off your mouth, and tongue instead! :)

  • Linkin Tee

    @Adamw: you don’t ‘get’ Phimosis you are born with that. Phimosis can be treated with stretching and using those ring stretchers. Circumcision should only be a last recourse.

  • Random

    @JimmyJ: I reiterate my point that if people want to get circumcised, it should be a choice THEY make as adults and should not be performed on them as babies/children when they are unable to give their consent. Anyone who insists otherwise is, to use your own words, ‘messed up’.

  • justyouandi

    Clearly you accept the premise of what has been cited here as science. I don’t. When Mario Lopez and his wife learned they were going to have a baby boy, they discussed whether to have him circumcised or not. They decided not to, but only because Mario preferred to have his son look like himself. Because I don’t believe the hype about circumcision, just as i would choose orthodontia for my son, I would also choose circumcision for him. And, as he grew up, I would teach him to think critically, and to not accept the conventional wisdom without thoroughly investigating it himself.

    • Random

      @justyouandi: I’m all for teaching children to think critically – I don’t have an issue with that at all. And thus, in that spirit, why not furnish your son with both sides of the arguments so HE can choose, with a critical and informed mind, whether he wants to have a part of his body permanently removed or not?

  • Celtic

    The banter between a few of you has convinced me to stop all future emails of comments in this thread. Why don’t you take it outside where the rest of us who have been interested in this thread don’t have to read your snarly bitchiness?

  • justyouandi

    You’re just not going to stop, are you, Random? I think that just about everything that needs to be said on this topic has been said ………. several times.

    • Random

      @justyouandi: It’s curious that you won’t answer my question about letting your son make up his own mind. Are you afraid he’ll come to the conclusion that circumcision is a pointless and unnecessary operation, like the majority of the world’s men know it to be?

      But still, if you no longer wish to participate then feel free to ignore the comments from now on.

  • justyouandi

    Yeah, Random, this is me ignoring you, because you’re ignoring that I’ve already responded to exactly that question, but you’re either not seeing it, or are choosing to keep this going in spite of my clearly stated position. You’re determined to have the last word, and I’ll let you have it.

    • Random

      @justyouandi: It’s sort of amusing that you claim to be in favour of critical thinking yet totally go against that by saying you’d circumcise your son. Perhaps one day you’ll wake up to that glaring contradiction….hopefully before you’ve had the shears taken your son’s penis.

  • justyouandi

    Not only do I question your critical thinking skills, I question your reading comprehension skills. That which you criticize me for, I have already explained. But I said I would give you the last word, didn’t I? Or did you miss that too?

  • onthemark

    I want the last word, dammit!

    @justyouandi: You are a dumbass!

  • justyouandi

    Okey Dokey.

    • Random

      LOL

Comments are closed.