Yesterday the internet was divided over comments made by Looking actor Russell Tovey in an interview with The Guardian.
You can read more about that here.
Essentially, he expressed gratitude towards his father for not allowing him to go to a performing arts high school which might have made him a “more effeminate, tap dancing freak,” instead attending a school he feels “toughened him up.” His acting career, Russell contends, benefitted as a result.
Some readers thought we were making a mountain out of a mole hill by suggesting his comments were off-base, while many others took offense, feeling his words fell in line with a pattern of gay men casting shame on femme identity.
How about we take this to the next level?
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Russell, for his part, took to Twitter to sort-of apologize.
He fired off this series of Tweets:
— russell tovey (@russelltovey) March 3, 2015
I surrender. You got me. I’m sat baffled and saddened that a mis- fired inarticulate quote of mine, has branded me worst gay ever Contd
— russell tovey (@russelltovey) March 3, 2015
If you feel I have personally let you down, I’m sorry, that was never my intention — russell tovey (@russelltovey) March 3, 2015
I’m proud to be who I am and proud for others We’re in this together, I want you to know whatever you think I meant, I didn’t — russell tovey (@russelltovey) March 3, 2015
I’m gonna ride this out, and one day we will all look back on this moment with a half smile of fascination and amusement
— russell tovey (@russelltovey) March 3, 2015
Until that day I’m gonna carry on being me #lowersflag x
— russell tovey (@russelltovey) March 3, 2015
We’re not sure if everyone will look back on this with “fascination and amusement,” but we’re certainly not branding him the worst gay ever. Not while these guys are around.
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Louis
The mocking and patronizing way he responded in the beginning and ended with was no better then how he originally responded about gay dudes who are not as masculine as he is.
Smh some people never learn.
How hard is it for someone to simply say im sorry and actually mean it sincerely instead of having to add some condescending comment before the apology essentially ridiculing the very people they offended in the first place?
Oh well maybe this will be a learning experience for him…hopefully.
We (most) of us anyways learn that we should think before we speak even as children.
Some unfortunately in this community have still not gotten that logical and rational memo sadly.
CCTR
I’m not sure why this is a “half” apology.
I think reading the original interview in its entirety and reading about a traumatic attack he experienced as a youth puts his comments in a better context and perspective.
His words certainly were not articulated carefully but I think the point is that he is thankful for how his experiences have help to shape him into the person he is proud to be.
Many gay men use manufactured masculinity as a defensive facade, many gay men use manufactured effeminacy as a defensive facade. Is one better than the other? Tovey feels the path he chose has worked better for him. We all have our own unique journeys and paths and I agree with him that “we’re in this together”.
Cam
@CCTR: said… “His words certainly were not articulated carefully but I think the point is that he is thankful for how his experiences have help to shape him into the person he is proud to be.”
__________________________
No, that isn’t what the comment stated. He stated that he basically wanted to prance, daddy didn’t let him, forced him to butch up and now he is grateful for that.
andrewishuman
Correction: Perez is the “worst gay ever”. Always will and no one will ever be able to take that crown. He publicly attacks celebrities (women, men, gay, straight). He is what is wrong with the perception of women and gays in Hollywood, and in general. Not a journalist, just a hater. #bloop
onthemark
Blow me. No seriously, tap-dance over here and blow me!
Louis
@CCTR:
Sir he spoke specifically of being glad his father did not let him go down that PATH.
It wasn’t about him being inarticulate with his words it was more about that his statement can easily be taken out of context and seem in a very negative and detrimental light.
In the original article he spoke of being glad he didn’t go down that path and he made some very obvious mocking comments about how feminine gay men are perceived or even how they walk hence the PRANCE thing he said.
Whether inarticulate not thinking straight or simply not thinking before he spoke he still wound up offending people that are no different then he is.
That’s the unfortunate bottom line of all of this .
CCTR
@Cam: I don’t think our interpretations are that much different.
I don’t think he articulated carefully, but is there anything wrong with being proud and thankful of how your experiences or lack thereof have had an influence on the person one has become? Even if that means he “basically wanted to prance, daddy didn’t let him, forced him to butch up and now he is grateful for that”?
If he feels it has shaped him into something that he is honestly proud of being he should be able to say so without being branded some of the things he has been branded. Just my opinion.
Cam
@CCTR: said…. “I don’t think he articulated carefully, but is there anything wrong with being proud and thankful of how your experiences or lack thereof have had an influence on the person one has become?”
________________________
There is a bit of a difference between saying….
“I’m so glad my parents made me study so that I was able to do well in school and be where I am today”
And
Glad dad didn’t let me go to a school for fine arts so I didn’t grow up to be ……
Louis
@CCTR:
The term butch up is implying that those who are not as masculine are wrong.
Not saying that’s your attitude or mindset however most of the time that specific word has a negative context attached to it.
Louis
@Cam: I agree .
BJ McFrisky
What baffles me is that people seem to be unaware that there indeed exist masculine and feminine men, be they gay or straight.
Giancarlo85
He truly is an idiot. And all of these remarks says it all. Why not offer an honest upfront apology for his stupid, naive comments.
Cctr, he can be proud all he wants but he doesn’t have shame an entire group of people while doing it. Seeing as he isn’t too bright doesn’t really surprise me.
Charlie in Charge
It’s true that in the age of digital information we scrutinize to a high degree any off-hand comment anyone makes. I really dislike the sentiment that effeminate guys would be better off if they toughened up but I also see the value in accepting the apology as given.
Louis
@Charlie in Charge:
I surrender. You got me. I’m sat baffled and saddened that a mis- fired inarticulate quote of mine, has branded me worst gay ever
Contd
The problem is the sincerity and intent of his apology is immediately lost when those he actually offended see how careless and insensitive he continued to be even in the apology itself.
Giancarlo85
I think effeminate guys are more tough than Tovey who showed how much of an insecure ass he is.
CCTR
@Louis: I can agree with what you are saying about people being offended, but when I read the article and his statements in their full context it paints a bit of a different picture. In context of the interview the “path” he speaks of is a little more than being effeminate and includes being educated at a performing arts school, and with a trauma he experienced as a youth. We all agree that his comments were offensive to many, but I guess we don’t agree with his intentions and the sincerity of his apology.
Cam
@BJ McFrisky: said….
“What baffles me is that people seem to be unaware that there indeed exist masculine and feminine men, be they gay or straight.”
_________________________-
I”m curious BJ, do you ever post on here where you aren’t trying to misrepresent something? Tovey wasn’t exposing that masculine and feminine men exist. He was stating that he was glad he wasn’t one of “Them” and grateful to his father for forcing him to not do what he wanted so he didn’t become a prancing ……
But then again, you already knew that and were trying to avoid, deflect, and alter.
Louis
@CCTR:
I respectfully disagree sir when he said path he was referring to becoming effeminate.
He obviously has an internalized homophobia in regards to that but sadly many gay men do in the gay community.
Its not shocking nor surprising to me.
I respect your opinion and Im glad we can respectfully disagree with one another .
I enjoy a positive dialogue between both sides.
I think to be quite honest its a good way to start building bridges instead of burning them.
Nods the end of your response was perfect we do indeed disagree but Im not gonna be confrontational or abrasive towards you simply because we have a differing opinion.
lykeitiz
So….He’s even a bigger D-Bag in real life than what he plays on TV?
Actually, this is way more interesting than anything that’s happened on that tired show, so hopefully he’ll keep talking.
lauraspencer
I guess the school he went to “toughened” him up, but didn’t teach him the power and meaning of words.
He has been an actor for years and this wasn’t his first interview. He knows what and what not to say. Performers are media trained to answer questions concisely and clearly. He meant what he said.
Apology not accepted.
CCTR
@Louis: Thanks for your response and I too appreciate comments that are not abrasive. I’m always fascinated by the comments here.
I also like to read the articles and comments posted from my own interpretation and understandings and not be persuaded by the very suggestive Queerty titles or other comments. I try to encourage a more diplomatic approach in response to some of the Queerty stories.
As for internalized homophobia, it is rampant, especially here on Queerty.Time after time I see the comments and stories tearing down openly gay men if they don’t live up to a certain standard of trendiness, political correctness or “hotness”, as if they need to be perfect and infallible to be supported and appreciated by a community they identify as being part of…probably part of the reason I’m able to see Tovey’s original comments and apology the way I see them.
Cam
@CCTR:
So Tovey said nothing ill, but Queerty posters do.
Well that’s one way to try to take attention off of Tovey’s comments I suppose.
SteveDenver
russell Tovey is the victim of CLICK BAIT: articles concentrating on a comment out of context that rely on readers who didn’t bother to read the original interview. It’s a shame that the very real hurt and pain felt by so many gays has become focused against Tovey. Bi†ches gotta bi†ch!
drumstick
Gimme a break. The guy lived in a town where they cut his skull open with a knife and now we blame him for trying to pass. Everyone has their own response to violence. There’s no “right way” to do it…
Giancarlo85
@SteveDenver: If you read his entire interview you would know he’s truly a douchebag. Even a bigger douchebag than what the comments suggested…
Gruffling
He has nothing to apologise for. In fact I think he’s owed an apology by some people.
Giancarlo85
Oh he definitely has to apologize for his stupid comments. And why is he owed an apology by anyone? For criticizing him?
Cam
@Giancarlo85: said… “He has nothing to apologise for. In fact I think he’s owed an apology by some people.”
___________________
Notice how everybody saying things like this can never elaborate on why he is owed an apology.
Giancarlo85
@Cam: Gruffling said that. Not me. I feel the opposite. I don’t see why he’s owed any form of apology.
I guess when I criticize someone, I must always apologize after lol.
robho3
Oh so he’s as a an ass hole as his character on Looking.
Milk
For someone who complaint about theatre queens, he seems to be overly dramatic to claim he is the worst gay ever. Eat your humble pie and move on. Learn to accept people as who they are. Being a butch gay is not superior to fem gay. Mannerism does not define a good person.
Sansacro
@Giancarlo85: I read the whole intereview. Nothing douchebaggy about him to me. Guy seems to be a product of his environment.
Think there’s a lot of understandable projection going on here. Did Tovey say what many of us would want him to say? Probably not, but I appreciate his honesty and prefer it to the rampant political correct BS, where people say the “right thing” not to offend even when they identify with what many in society believe about about sex and gender.
We all need to own our homophobia. We also need to be honest that being “masculine”–however that is defined at any given cultural moment–tall, athletic, white, and male is an advantage in this world. Tovey would not have the career he has, like it or not, if he were perceived as a “sissy” boy. A more enlightened approach would be for him to acknowlege that advantage (which he sort of did) but also to stand up for those who struggle without those advantages.
Franky100
I think what he said was in poor character and not properly thought out but again he’s an actor so why do his words hold so much weight to people? It’s kind of like when an interviewer asked Kaley Cuoco( Big Bang Theory) about her stance on feminism and she said that she’s not a feminist. That she feels more comfortable being a house wife. Someone asked their opinion and they gave it. It may not be the right one in most people’s eyes but everyone has different opinions. I just feel that actors should be left to entertain and not be put up as figure heads.
Cam
@Sansacro: said… “Guy seems to be a product of his environment.”
____________________________
You could say the same thing about Sarah Palin or the Dugger family. Not sure why that is an auto-defense.
jwtraveler
Tovey is not the “worst gay ever”. But he did make comments that are insulting and offensive and just plain stupid. Going to a performing arts school does not make you “effeminate”. It can however be a safe, supportive environment for boy who are already “effeminate”. The school he went to might have been a better place for him, but his father didn’t save him from anything.
My nomination for “worst gay ever” is Roy Cohn, but I believe there were some gay members of Hitler’s inner circle who might have him beat.
Giancarlo85
@Sansacro: Tovey’s tone says it all. He said he is glad his dad didn’t let him go down that route. As if there was something wrong with it. And what rampant politically correct BS? People are critizing him because he’s full of shit. And they have that right.
And I don’t need to acknowledge that dumb point you made about masculinity. I’m sorry but it’s not the 1950s or even 1980s anymore. Being white male isn’t an advantage like it used to be. Tovey’s career isn’t anything special. There are other feminine gay men actors (like Neil Patrick Harris – who isn’t MASCULINE) who are better off than him.
ActionBuddy
Regardless of what he said, and apologized for, the dude desperately needs an ear tuck, for me to take him seriously.
Gruffling
@Cam: I do not feel the need to repeat myself from the last post. All the elaboration needed can be found there.
robair3
Let’s not also forget that he is English and they have a knack for not mincing words.
enlightenone
This insincere apology, non-clarification or new understanding of the offense provides nothing to be worthy of forgiveness. Forgiveness is earned. Do your homework and reach into your soul and then get back to us with a wise, thoughtful tweet!
I wonder what you co-star Jonathan Groff and “Looking” staff think of your comments and tweets?
Cam
@Gruffling: said….
“@Cam: I do not feel the need to repeat myself from the last post. All the elaboration needed can be found there”
___________________________
Your last post said this “He has nothing to apologise for. In fact I think he’s owed an apology by some people.”
And I stand by my comment, that I pointed out that you couldn’t elaborate on why he is owed an apology, and now you have shown that you still cant.
blessingyou
Shame is something that most gay men have in common. Tovey has unwittingly revealed his for all of us to see. If something good comes of this, maybe it will be Tovey realizing that the so-called fem part of him was always beautiful, and cultivating one’s identity around other’s expectations is both stressful and ultimately fruitless. (Something to that effect might reflect a good apology, Tovey.)
When I was studying linguistics in college, a professor had completed a study showing that many gay men shift the tone of their voices to a lower pitch on their voicemail greetings. I’m sure this comes as no surprise to any gay man who has faced down his own shame.
I hate thinking of guys as either feminine or masculine. It is so reductionist. I see both in myself. I think being gay has allowed me to appreciate the whole spectrum of gender expression, which is a true source of inspiration for me.
Daniel-Reader
He’s masculine? Wow, he needs to meet some actual masculine gay guys.
demented
@lauraspencer: It’s also not the first time he’s alluded to being apart from all the feminine gay men, and how different this is.
Also examine http://www.afterelton.com/node/12883, where he describes drag queens and rent boys as “dark, fucked up characters.”
CCTR
@Cam: Cam
@CCTR:
“So Tovey said nothing ill, but Queerty posters do.
Well that’s one way to try to take attention off of Tovey’s comments I suppose.”
My point was that after reading the Queerty post and title and then reading the entire interview that they quoted from, my understanding and perspective of his comments were interpreted differently.
If people are offended by what Tovey said and want to voice their dislike they have every right to do that as well as reject or not doubt his apology.
Sometimes its obvious that some people are taking a jab without really thinking or reading for themselves, just jumping on the bandwagon with a mob mentality. And yes, most of the time the majority of the comments here do reflect negatives attitudes including negative ones towards other gay men, often times unwarranted.
I’m just giving my opinion that happens to be different than yours.
vive
@Daniel-Reader, I agree.
His behaving like an arrogant dramatic little twit is the furthest thing from masculine I can imagine.
yaletownman
Life imitates art. It’s very interesting that the character he plays in Looking is very much how he sees himself. I remember the episodes where Toveys character and his boyfriend attended the same wedding as did Patrick. I recall how Toveys and his boyfriend were used as models by other weddings guests and especially Patrick’s mother as what they wished Patrick could find as a partner. Both Tovey and his doctor boyfriend are affluent, educated and have relatively butch professions ( the boy friend is in sports medicine and Toveys heads up a high tech, electronic games company). They are both masculine and conventually handsome. Of course this was a juxtaposition to Patrick’s Mexican barber love interest but the message was still there. The ideal gay is not effeminate in either looks, profession or demeanor. Tovey’s character never feels like it fits in with the rest of the gay people on the show. This especially rang true when he and his doctor boyfriend dropped into Patrick’s party. They both looked like they were slumming it.
nightside23
Am I the only person thinking that he seems confused as to why he should be apologizing in the first place? I can see how he may not think his statement was in any way offensive, and nobody knows what was going through his mind when he said it. Lack or articulation may be an issues, especially when feelings are involved. too bad we seem to have to use the terms masculine and feminine in the first place. they see to only do more harm than good.
crowebobby
Boy, and the Jews thought Goebbels said nasty things about them. They should have heard Tovey talk about being a fairly butch rather than femme gay. That would have put their piddling indignation in perspective.
Gruffling
@Cam: Apologies. Topic would have been a more appropriate term.
Kieran
One of the great things about being gay is not being intimidated by what other people think of you. This idea that we all have to march in lock step and be careful not to offend the Gay Thought Police is pure BS. Russell Tovey wasn’t criticizing effeminate men. He was merely expressing his own thoughts about valuing his masculinity. There is a difference.
TomMc
@Kieran: Yup, that is, “one of the great things about being gay…”.
Now, might I suggest that Mr. Tovey didn’t offend the ‘Thought Police’ as much as he did the ‘Feelings Police'(sic)?
That penned, and I don’t mean to equivocate Kieran, but Mr. Tovey wasn’t criticizing “effeminate men”; he said what he did about “effeminate ‘gay’ men”.
There might be a difference…
Bauhaus
@Cam:
“No, that isn’t what the comment stated. He stated that he basically wanted to prance, daddy didn’t let him, forced him to butch up and now he is grateful for that.”
You nailed it.
wysevice27
So…Russell Tovey’s point was that:
* Gay people who say “We’re no different from straight people, other than who we love”
-and-
* Who prove that by acting like normal people – not with some affected lisp/accent, etc.
are visibly treated better by the world…thus, he is grateful to his dad for preventing him from learning to act in abnormal ways that would have led to discrimination.
Why is this an issue? Neither Tovey nor his dad made the rules of the game. They’re just playing by them, and playing to win.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
demented
@nightside23: I think he’s a little passive-aggressive, like “Fine! I’ll apologize because you say I’m as bad as Hitler! So there! I’m sorry. Happy now? Asshole.”
AxelDC
And I’m supposed to care why?
Giancarlo85
@wysevice27: LOL Normal people? How do normal people act like?
You are so full of it. Just like Tovey.
Abnormal ways? Treating feminine gay guys like trash and calling them abnormal is no better than what the christian right does. Some people are naturally effeminate and don’t like you… they are perfectly “normal” (whatever the fuck that means).
And what game? Neil Patrick Harris is not masculine at all, yet is very successful (success Tovey will never reach).
Giancarlo85
@Giancarlo85: *Don’t talk like you.
Thanks for showing how much of a bigot you are… calling people “abnormal”… yes that’s real classy.
sfhally
@Giancarlo85: Why bother? There’s a ton of people on-line who’ll always use this. He could be 80 years old and getting an Academy Award and there’ll still be some of you complaining about this. A mountain in a molehill–I understood what he was trying to say without too much trouble; anyone who’s clutching the pearls and fanning themselves is enjoying being “offended”.
wysevice27
@Giancarlo85:
“Neil Patrick Harris is not masculine at all”
———————————————————————-
I dunno, man, he looked pretty manly singing that mustache song in A Million Ways to Die in the West!
Giancarlo85
@wysevice27: He was acting a role, you dunce.
MufferawJoe
@ActionBuddy: Those ears are part of his charm
wysevice27
@Giancarlo85:
Don’t be a bully, man. Personal attacks are not welcome here. Let’s civilly discuss ideas, without the name-calling.
Giancarlo85
@wysevice27: You have been bullying me all day, but I don’t care. I am not as thin skinned like you. Libertarians are very thin skinned and highly defensive.
Saint Law
@wysevice27: Without the bullying this blog would be unreadable.
Geeker
Hasn’t this guy come off like a douche bag in other interviews,if so why are we surprised he’s yet again proven himself to be a douche bag?
kiriakis1
@Franky100: Well then, the publication was at fault for interviewing him and quoting his backward 1950s opinions.
Russell Tovey’s “apology” makes him seem like even more like the douchiest of all the douches. For his sake, I hope he makes it big in the US, where so many gay men seem to feel that good looks = good sense, because he’s burned his bridges in the UK.
ActionBuddy
@MufferawJoe: If charmed by monkeys.
martinbakman
“Prancing in the streets” certainly hit home with many. Perhaps he could have found a better way to articulate it, which he already admits.
I wonder how much he was referring to being overly flamboyant vs. being effeminate. Men (and women for that matter) can act flamboyant, wanting attention, being loud, sometimes annoying, while an effeminate man can still be a stoic, serious, thoughtful and overall lovely person to be around. We’re all in this together, but sometimes the flamboyant ones, those that act like they’re on stage 24/7, the attention whores, can be a little bit tiring. I wonder if that is more to his point, because Tovey is certainly not effeminate.
samuel88
I’m 100% supporter of Russell Tovey, and I don’t fuck he says. Nothing wrong showing masculine pride in gay communities. And sadly, the male standard in society at-large has become the ideal among Gay men. Masculine Gay men are put at the front of the line on Gay hook-up websites, ads, porn and magazine.
inbama
I actually feel the same way about my father butching me up – although he didn’t quite succeed.
jjose712
@ActionBuddy: That’s absurd beyond belief. One of the things that always played in his advantage is that he has not a classical sanitized good looks.
I don’t think there’s nothing wrong in the way he feels, what it’s wrong is the way he said it.
It’s obvious not being effeminate played a big role in his career, because most of his characters are straight, and yes, being effeminate is very limited for an actor.
But in his interview he implied there was something inherently negative on being effeminate and that’s the big mistake
martinbakman: That’s an interesting comment. There are a lot of people (and not only straights) that find over the top flamboyance annoying, and that it’s not the same that being effeminate
xzall
In the interview the first thing Tovey brings up is being beaten up and knifed on a train when he was 18. The thing he seemed to wrestle with was there was no reason that he could see for this to happen to him other than how he was dressed and it took him 10 years to get over it. Coincidentally after that 10 years was the first time he ever took a gay role and when he started bulking up and going to the gym.
It’s pretty obvious from that that he associates being skinny and possibly effeminate looking with being bullied and beaten up. I think he reconciled taking gay acting roles as long as in his head he’s the masculine type gay.
I feel sorry for him because I think his upbringing, his father and his past has made him defensive about this. Apparently this is not the first interview where he’s bought this up.
stanhope
All of these words and all of this analysis when it boils down to one simple thing……he’s an asshole.
IvanPH
Why should he apologize for saying the truth? The awful truth in Hollywood and anywhere else is that no one would hire a flamboyant and effeminate gay man to play a straight character. If you think otherwise then name one flamboyant gay actor who has been cast in a straight role.
Giancarlo85
@IvanPH: Yet people have hired some to play straight characters so your statement is a lie as usual. And I will name one… Neil Patrick Harris. If you think he’s masculine, you are blind.
demented
@IvanPH: He didn’t say that. Nothing in that paragraph was about his actual career, just his gender expression. The closest he came to mentioning acting was “without qualifications.”
And he didn’t thank his father for anything related to his job. He thanked his father for not letting him go down the “path” of non-machoness.
Cam
My question is, why are the people who are freaking out defending Tovey lying?
He didn’t say “People are different lets all old hands and celebrate our differences.”
He basically stated that he wanted to prance, daddy didn’t let him, forced him to butch up and now he is grateful for that.”
If you don’t think there is anything wrong with THAT statement then that is fine, and argue from that viewpoint. But please stop trying to re-post the lie that Tovey was saying that people shouldn’t be ashamed to be butch.
If you have to lie to defend your point, then that says a lot about your point.
Ed5995
What a stupid article by Queerty and even stupider comments. It is perhaps the case that the bulk of comments are from the US where you have little awareness of the unique child freaks that come out of London stage schools. Tovey’s comments have nothing to do with sexuality. Just not everyone likes little Shirley Temples whose training and aspiration prepares them all to often a chorus line role in some minor musical theatre. The guy has done better than this, he has apologized if he has offended, so move on. Tovey is ok!!
Giancarlo85
A half assed apology where he managed to insult even further isn’t an apology. His comments have everything to do with feminine gay men, and he said he is happy he didn’t go down that path.
Some here are so f-king out of touch with reality.
wysevice27
@Giancarlo85:
Well, your reality is Los Angeles, friend. There’s a huge swath of this country – and the world – wherein effeminate men are discriminated against and looked down upon…made fun of, mocked, shut out of jobs and business opportunities, socially outcast and ostracized. The fact that it shouldn’t be that way doesn’t make it any less reality. So for men like Tovey who live in that reality outside the California metro bubble you inhabit, having your parents raise you to be more cowboy than ballerina confers a ton of tangible benefits. All he’s saying is, he’s grateful for those benefits. He’s grateful to be living a life less hard than the one he’d have if he were effeminate.
Cam
@Ed5995: said…
“What a stupid article by Queerty and even stupider comments. It is perhaps the case that the bulk of comments are from the US where you have little awareness of the unique child freaks that come out of London stage schools.”
__________________________________
So lets see, you say that what he said isn’t bad, because the people that go to those schools are “Little Child Freaks”.
Tovey would probably be better off without you defending him.
Giancarlo85
@wysevice27: You dont know what the fuck you are talking about. I don’t live in a bubble. Tovey lived in a developed accepting country. I am from a developing country. Of course, feminine gay men are discriminated against. Did I ever argue against that? Do you have reading comprehension problems? California metro bubble fcking bullshit. Do you even know where I am from? A Catholic country that has a long history of not accepting gay people.
Don’t you dare talk for me again. And what benefits? His career is not doing that wonderfully as we speak.
Giancarlo85
@wysevice27: Who the hell are anyways? You’ve been bullying me for several days now. Do you know me? Do you think LA is discrimination free? Have you ever been to this city? Or do you just spout of your ass? Do you know people get assaulted and attacked for their sexual orientation in this city? Do you know it’s a big fucking problem? You self righteous little prick… don’t you dare talk for me again. I’ve experienced far worse discrimination than Tovey, yet I preserve and I don’t change who I am because someone doesn’t approve.
You are part of the problem in this country.
So seriously go fuck yourself. I’m sick of you… you’re a rich white male libertarian who is privileged. We all get it. So please don’t talk to me about my life or if I’m sheltered. I’ve seen far more of this world than you or Tovey. In fact Tovey looks like the sheltered one living in a bubble world.
Giancarlo85
*Persevere.
wysevice27
@Giancarlo85: @Giancarlo85:
Only certain people are allowed to talk about certain things? More of your censorship, man. Censorship is evil.
Giancarlo85
@wysevice27: Where did I say only certain people were allowed to talk about certain things? Say whatever stupidity you want and expect a response. So what censorship is that?
You’re evil and you are a bully (and you failed at that).
You made a few accusations and all failed. I already said I had a rough growing up… far more difficult than Tovey or you.
Cam
@Giancarlo85:
You didn’t say that, he just can’t respond to your actual comment so had to make something up.
Giancarlo85
@Cam: Yea I’m just about done with him. He’s a miserable person really. I don’t have any time today to argue… off to work.
AtticusBennett
He grew up with an ignorant homophobic father, and unlike a great many gay men who grow up with ignorant homophobic fathers he’s been unable to see his father’s bigotry for what it was, and is – baseless, irrational, and steeped in cultural prejudices and misogyny.
what’s he done? he’s not been strong, he’s not challenged hatred and preconceptions. he catered to them. he’s not accepted, he’s been tolerated.
and his defenders are even worse. there is no “masc-bashing”, there is nobody saying “you’re not being real if you’re not “fem”” – Tovey admitted, and has in previous interviews, that he remains insecure about things deemed “effeminate” – and like many broken boys he doesn’t realize that the affectations he admits to learning and adopting to appease a homophobic father are truly sad.
my dad cheered me on when i began dancing as a young teen. and taught me to defy my bullies, stand up to them, and be myself. Tovey’s dad pressured him, with homophobia, to avoid those things. to blend in with the homophobes. to censor and edit himself so as to appeal to misogynistic homophobes.
and tragically, decades later, he doesn’t seem to realize it.
it’s like those gay conservatives who say “my parents aren’t anti-gay! they just can’t stand you liberal effeminate stereotypical gays!”
translation: “I’m tolerated as long as i make an effort to be nothing like YOU people”
it was sad. his apology was pathetic and barely an apology, and worst of all it shows he doesn’t even understand WHAT and WHY he was being criticized for – which shows he still doesn’t realize that what his dad did was teach him NOT to “be himself’, but how to be the way his dad wanted.
sad. sad. sad.
vive
@wysevice27: “There’s a huge swath of this country – and the world – wherein effeminate men are discriminated against and looked down up.”
Yes, and if that weren’t enough, then Tovey goes and also puts down feminine men, and then responds with a sarcastic fake “apology” when he gets called out for it.
Cam
@vive:
Boom!
talk_talk
Bottom line is, with a face as ugly as Tovey’s, don’t expect to get away with being mean! Hope this is the last time we’ll ever care what this dicksweat is tweeting!!
But yes I’ll definitely watch Tovey’s debut in the bow flex commercials at 2 am in five years!! Looking forward to watching him crash and burn; and as he quite rightly points out, it will be with “fascination and amusement”
wysevice27
@talk_talk:
Man, why not wish your fellow human being well, rather than gleefully await his demise? Be positive!
Giancarlo85
@wysevice27: He’s an average actor, and his looks are going down… doesn’t look good for him.
ActionBuddy
@jjose712: I have no argument with what you have shared, Jose, but, I just can’t get past those ear flaps to look him squarely in the eye… Luckily, he’s a bottom.
JROBGF
Way, way back, and once upon a time, just after Judy went over that rainbow, a drag queen started a riot at a somewhat seedy bar in New York City. To the best of my knowledge, an awful lot of that event had to do with gaining our rights to be accepted. We should be better than this kinda stuff. Inspite of the fact that Mr. Tolvey has long been and will long be one of my favourite actors, he may have made some ill-phrased comments. Comments I certainly cannot endorse. But I cannot support those comments from the other – and you will pardon the non-intentional pun – camp. As an obviously gay man who has happily done VERY GOOD drag and is a contented top – let’s embrace our differences (Mr. Tolvey, I mean you too – and maybe you never had it in you to be ‘camp’ – maybe your Dad’s choices had nothing to do with it!). And while I admit to wincing at mincing, you go for it BOY!
IvanPH
@Giancarlo85: How is Neil Patrick Harris effeminate? He knows how to sing and dance and that makes him effeminate?
You are one serious mental case.
JROBGF
@IvanPH: And how the hell did NPH ever get dragged – opps, wrong word? Am I now homophopic? – into this silly discourse? A person, a human being who happens to be gay and who happens to be an actor of some renown (sorry, he does sport the creds) made a statement about how he feels about himself as a human being. In rereading, I discern no reference to his father being a fag-hating asshole. I discover no indication that Mr. Tovey has any stated feelings about the limp wristed cliché – and cliché never exist without foundation. Do I endorse what, on the surface – when taken out of context – MIGHT be ASSUMED by his statement? No. But, by God, as a proud and very open gay man – one who remembers days before AIDS and Stonewall and all that crap, I bloody well support his right to say it and I give thanks that we are ALMOST getting to a time and a place where society agrees. Shame on all of those who elect to haul out their soap box to bolster their less than special career (yup, that’d be you, Mr. Mapa – your acting degree from clichés-are-us?), shame on all of you for turning this into a personal attack on how Mr. Tovey looks as a human being, and for the love of God, shame on you for introducing NPH into all this – what the hell does he have to do with it anyway?
It’s a long time since we, as gay men – and women – have had to use ‘Mary’ as a code word to talk about our friends on the street car. Let’s stop behaving like a bunch of ‘Marys’ (no offense to any Mary out there). Until we accept Mr. Tovey as an actor as opposed to a GAY ACTOR, society at large will continue to treat us as GAY MEN as opposed to PEOPLE! Kim K. has a fat ass and her husband is a self-aggrandising asshole. Okay. Crucify me!
inbama
@JROBGF:
If he’d been born a woman (sorry cult members, I don’t do “assigned female at birth”) took hormone shots, lifted weights, had surgeries and dressed to conform to society’s notion of a man, we’d all be politically correctly calling him a “hero” and congratulating him on his “journey.”
Have the exact same notions about masculinity and be a gay man, and you’re a bigot.
The movement has gotten totally ridiculous.
Actually, insane is closer to it.
JROBGF
@inbama: I think we are saying the same thing. And shame on all of us for directing more attention to this than a very young trans-gen – who never got to live long enough to decide upon a pronoun (that matters) – who elected to die under a train. I really mean it. Hatred stops at homo.
Cam
@JROBGF:
Once again, the people defending Tovey, if you stopped lying and saying that his comments were chopped or taken out of context, or that he is being attacked for being happy with who he is, your comments might not come off as so phony.
No, repeating what somebody said word for word is not “Taking their comments out of context”.
And saying you are glad you aren’t something else, isn’t the same as saying you are happy with who you are.
But please, by all means, keep trying to lie and pretend that what people read isn’t what they actually read, maybe nobody on this site is smart enough to see through that incredibly blatant tactic.
vive
@Cam: “And saying you are glad you aren’t something else, isn’t the same as saying you are happy with who you are.”
Exactly. There seems to be a lot of willful reading incomprehension among Tovey’s defenders.
Giancarlo85
@IvanPH: You’re a complete and utter buffoon. How is Neil Patrick Harris masculine? You can’t even answer that. You’re too stupid and just another basketcase. Go take your homophobia somewhere else. This isn’t the site for it. If you’re going to attack other members of the gay community, go fuck yourself.
Giancarlo85
@Cam: The people defending Tovey can’t defend shit. They don’t have an actual argument and they are trying to sugarcoat the words he used. Then they’ll post a hundred different excuses and all this other moronic nonsense. Feminine gay men are out there on the frontlines and they are the ones taking the abuse… can’t say the same for the masculine closet cases.
IvanPH
@Giancarlo85: How is Neil Patrick Harris masculine? He has qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men. He does not act effeminately. That is why.
Why do you think he is effeminate? I have asked you the question for a couple of times yet you refuse to provide any answer. Are you afraid that answering the question might show how narrow-minded and hopelessly imbecilic you are?
Giancarlo85
@IvanPH: You are a terrible bullshit artist. Neil isn’t masculine. Quit making things up you idiot. I have asked you several questions and you are too stupid and too much of a ubermasculine blockhead to answer them. People like you are generally stupid.
You claim he is masculine, but can’t prove it. So you demand I prove myself? Have you ever seen Neil Patrick Harris talk in real life? You will see how stupidly wrong you are. You are the narrow minded bigot… You bash on effeminate men reinforcing your nasty bigotry.
IvanPH
@Giancarlo85: I have given you my explanation. You, on the other hand, keeps on insisting that he is effeminate without providing a single valid argument to support your outright asinine claims. The audacity of your idiocy knows no bounds. All you have done in the comments section is take stupidity to whole new levels.
twelveof13
Mr. Tovey:
I’m not sure why this is an issue for you. While I don’t personally find you masculine at ALL (And THAT in itself doesn’t mean you aren’t!) I don’t judge you for not fitting in with MY picture of what masculinity “IS”. (By the way, there IS no “IS” it’s all just opinion and occurrence.) On the other hand I DO find you incredibly attractive, even if you don’t fit my, or perhaps someone else’s particular picture of manhood. At the same time, you may well be The “UBER” male, and picture of masculinity to some/many!
It’s all up to the individual. For me (With 8 very macho brothers, and some fairly tough Irish sisters,) It occurs to ME, that I fly around like the tooth fairy. I’m told regularly by others that this is NOT the case, ALWAYS to my surprise! Either way, who cares? What works is to have & show respect for each other, despite the opinions that gather, all on their own, inside our heads!
I DO tend to prefer Masculine men, when it comes to sexual and personal attraction. THAT doesn’t mean I don’t love and cherish those friends of mine who identify as effeminate. (AND I too, love and cherish those who THINK They are masculine, despite what others feel about them.) And I love it when someone who occurs as UBER Masculine in my eyes, opens his mouth, and 50 yards of gold taffeta come flying out. It makes me love their humanity even more!
It’s about RESPECT Mr. Tovey. It’s fine to acknowledge your preference for yourself and those you are attracted to… and it doesn’t mean you have to denigrate, judge or opine upon those who don’t fit your picture.
I can’t imagine that you meant to hurt anyone, but you did. We’ve all done it. I have a big mouth, and I’ve learnt some difficult lessons. I thank those around me who educate me when I need it. I’m not perfect, I know that… I don’t know anyone who is.
I respect your opinion… and thank you for realizing that what you said may not have worked for others… And I respect that your assertion of your masculinity works for you. THAT you have the confidence to express that, makes you that much more attractive, at least to me. However, it’s the same experience for me, with my friends who excel in the expression of their femininity. I assert that it’s all about being true, at the level of self. We must not require people to ‘act’ in a way that is not authentic to them, to respect and love them.
You’re right, we’re all in this together. Respect for others, no matter HOW they identify, or don’t is what makes it all work.
Would love your feedback if you ever actually read this!