“The most bothersome thing about me is that I’m a strict agnostic. By which I mean there’s a difference between belief and fact. And you should not confuse the two. You can believe all you like that trans people aren’t people, but it happens not to be a fact. It is not true that there are only two boxes. So the two questions to ask about anything are: Is it true? And is it fair? So if it’s not true that there are only two gender boxes and gender is fixed and immutable, then is it fair to treat trans people as if they’re not who they say they are?”–Margaret Atwood, the author of The Handmaid’s Tale, discussing her support for transgender people with The Times, the British daily. Journalist Bryan Appleyard confronted Atwood about JK Rowling’s contempt for transgender people. The anti-trans propaganda newspaper later deleted the Atwood interview even though the author sent Appleyard an article from Scientific American backing her views on gender, according to PinkNews.
LegionKeign
Thank You!
kamayajaimes
You’re confusing biological sex, with gender which is a social construct. Try educating yourself before making ignorant comments.
SnakeyJ
@kamayajaimes: Only recently are people separating the two. I don’t believe in gender theory or studies, because it’s all based upon feelings, which ultimately mean nothing compared to facts.
Bosch
Sex describes the male-female dichotomy, while gender descrbes the masculinity-femininity scale. The only reason that these two words are sometimes used interchangeably is that the word “sex” became eroticized. Purposely using the word gender to refer to biology is a new phenomenon. The word gender, originally meaning “category”, was first applied to masculinity-feminity in linguistics to refer to nouns.
This is also why the word “transgender” is preferred to “transsexual”. They’re not inventing new sexes, they’re describing their position on the gender scale.
Bosch
“only recently are people separating the two”
I’m sorry, but you’ve been misinformed. The true definition of the word gender has nothing to do with gender studies. And yes, transgenderism is about feelings. You can respect their feelings and let them be who they want in their one short life on earth, or you can be an arrogant putz about it. Your choice.
Bosch
And the “fact” is that our concept of what it means to be masculine and what it means to be feminine are completely invented and not at all factual. So if you want to stick with the facts, you would abandon all belief in any kind of gender roles, in which case you would accept all behaviours and all identifications.
SnakeyJ
@Bosch: Our concept of what it means to be masculine or feminine comes from biology. Men are naturally a certain way, women are naturally a different way. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course. There is no evidence to prove that at some point primitive humans sat down to decide what the role of each person was. Men were the hunters and protectors while women took care of the home and children based on biological instinct.
Bosch
If that were so, then masculinity and femininity would be identical across cultures and across times. But they are not.
I’ve given you all the information you need to be less ignorant on the subject. What you do with this information is your choice.
Man About Town
Yes, I noticed that too. Ironic that the byline is simply “editors!”
Bosch
And if your gender came from your sex, there would be no such thing as masculine women or feminine men, would there? How would that explain the existence of Lindsey Graham?
SnakeyJ
@Bosch: I have studied a lot of history and I can say with confidence the idea of being a man and being a woman and their roles in society are fundamentally the same. I did state that there are always exceptions to the rule, but those are just that, exceptions. If a man might has some feminine mannerisms, that does not make him a woman. It makes him an effeminate male.
michael_totzke
Thank Whomever or Whatever is Up There for Bosch …
WSnyder
Your claims of only two gender boxes as defined by ‘science’ are NOT supported by science since you don’t even attempt to explain Intersex persons. And Intersex persons are a spectrum in not just genitals but in chromosomes, hormones in multiple combinations and lack thereof. Science and culture are paradigms that have intersected and influenced each other throughout history. Your assortation that science fact is immutable is laughable since I grew up in a generation that said dinosaurs were so massive they had to live in a swamp to support their eight, a ‘fact’ we know now to be false. Science is ever changing and like humanity itself, our understanding is ever evolving. So please, don’t attempt to wield scientific premise like a cudgel to support your flawed position, ‘people’ and how they identify themselves is always changing.
And that is a Good Thing.
SnakeyJ
@WSnyder: It is absolutely supported by science. A person born male, even after undergoing a transition into a trans female, still has male DNA. That is indisputable. Intersectionality is an extremely rare case where a biological mistake happens with developing genitals. So far, with the evidence that is available to read, intersex people do identify as either male or female. Not both. What we were taught about dinosaurs or even pre-historic man is all theory. These assumptions are based on the best evidence we have at the time, but we never had a live dinosaur to actually verify these theories.
As more evidence is discovered, the theory changes. That’s why gender studies is only a theory, we have no evidence to prove any of the ideas. If it was fact it would be called a theorem and we could see exactly how it was proven.
jjose712
She gave an oppinion about an issue but what she said had nothing to do with J K Rowling (as far as i know she never denied trans people are people)
barryaksarben
What JK originally said is even worse than people think. She said that the physical abuse she received from a past male lover was made worse because of the very existence of trans women. It was a way for her to let her abusive boyfriend off the hook for abusing her. Which is sick as hell. Any abuser is SOLELY at fault for the abuse and it does no good to blame another group as a way to keep your love for that person alive. She was wrong and has been coming up with new and different reasons since called out for this horribly stupid comment. You do not lessen your abuse by having others suffer more abuse
Selverd
@barryaksarben do you have the quote where she said trans women made her abuse worse and let her ex off the hook?
inbama
Sounds like she’s losing her marbles.
Cam
What a shock, the same account that defends anti-LGBTQ bigots doesn’t like it when somebody defends LGBTQs.
Time to switch to your other screename to defend this comment.
barryaksarben
Hardly, she is a writer with a capital W while JK is a hack who stole every single plot point in the Harry Potter books. SHe should be ashamed of herself for making trans peoples lives more difficult. ANd you should be ashamed as a gay person for being ok with that
Cam
@LumpyPillows
Which “Facts” exactly did JK Rowling provide that you agree with. Since you have stated she provided them, feel free to actually back up your comment.
Polaro
@cam so you haven’t read her comments either. I’m not here to educate trolls.
Cam
@Polaro
I wasn’t responding to you……unless of course I WAS responding to another screename of yours and you forgot to switch back before posting this response.
Bosch
People use similar penis/vagina logic to justify homophobia.
Having a famous author discredit your life choices over and over again does not make life easier. When I was little, I would read the mean things that adults would say about gay people, and it certainly affected my self-image growing up, as it does for most gay and lesbian children.
Rowling is not displaying understanding or empathy for these individuals. And we don’t need to be like them to empathise with them. Life is short and we only get one, so whats the point of constantly reminding people that we disapprove of the way they choose to live their short, singular life? She’s a public figure, not just some lady.
Bosch
Here’s an example of a tweet :
“If sex isn’t real, there’s no same-sex attraction. If sex isn’t real, the lived reality of women globally is erased. I know and love trans people, but erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives. It isn’t hate to speak the truth.”
The problem with this “fact” is that Rowling is pretending that transgender people are trying to erase sex. This is not true; transgender people know better than anyone what the difference between sex and gender is.
hotdogla
Work.
Polaro
@Bosch JK did not discredit anything, she calls out the false equivalency that trans women are women. Unlike the right, which denigrates trans people, her opinion is just that they are not fully equivalent. That’s a fact. She, like many people, see and understand the difference between a trans person and non-trans people. A trans woman is not a woman, she’s a trans woman. I like trans women, but I do not confuse who they are. There are meaningful differences that we must accept to be able to fully integrate trans people into our world. The problem with the trans debate isn’t usually from trans people, its from non-trans people being righteous and obnoxious.
The whole misdirection with homosexuality is twisted logic. So much of the calling apple oranges is twisted logic. The real challenge is how this non-binary nonsense undercuts the trans argument.
Kanaka4127
Lotta obviously trans phobes commenting here.
Cam
@Polaro
Except you can’t post any details to dispute their comment.
Cam
@LumpyPillows
It’s cute when trolls come on and claim they aren’t invested in something, and then post 2 paragraphs of blather that shows that apparently you spend a LOT of time worrying about something you claim to not be invested in.
Cam
Hmmm, Multiple posts from the same troll account that always defends bigots.
So which is it, you’re here for the anti-trans pile on, or you’re an obsessed fangurl of Rowling?
Polaro
@cam obnoxious, know it all with personal attacks. You are the troll, sweetie.
Polaro
@cam you are everything wrong with social media. You are nasty. What happened to make you so nasty?
Cam
@Polaro
Keep on trying. We get it ,you are enraged that somebody pointed out the problems with what J.K. Rowling said. Also, if you’re going to steal a screename from a regular poster here, try not to make it so obvious by sounding completely differently, AND posting the same obsessive whines at me that you do in all your other screenames.
I mean, you’re really REALLY bad at this.
Cam
@Polaro
Sweetie, you’ve tried this same line under multiple screenames, and it never works. We get it, you, the same right wing troll that keeps stealing regular poster’s screenames, is here to attack LGBTQ people, defend bigots, and gets especially enraged whenever anything involves trans people.
You aren’t subtle or clever. You commit the worst sin a troll can commit….ya boring!
Polaro
@cam you’re just nasty. I know you enjoy it. Pathetic really. A woman with a penis isn’t really a woman, now is she? She’s different. Shame you can’t figure that out. You really are a b ully. Horrible. Person.
Roy Ajax
@Polaro
It’s pretty clear some of the people here are not into discussions. The facts are easily verifiable online to see that JK actually supports trans people but has an issue with a trans woman being called a woman, and has a reasonable reason.
@Cam
You might not like her reason, but you can’t say she hates trans people.
Roy Ajax
Are comments being deleted? I thought this was a forum for discussion?
HenryCameron
Maybe deleted or maybe sent to your-comment-is-awaiting-moderation purgatory for all eternity.
Josh447
Josh447
I get the whole genitalia designates the person etc but I think it’s important to remember, these poor folks have the opposite brain from their genitaled bodies i.e. a female brain in a male body and via versa. That is so harsh in this traditional world! So of course they don’t relate to their gentiles or body having the opposite mind structure. They deserve serious compassion and assistance in what they need. If it’s to be called what their brain designates as their true sex, yes to that. I completely understand. I think we have to look at this through their eyes to really get the entire picture.
Roy Ajax
I agree trans people need compassion, but we have to look at reality as well. Personally I don’t care if a F2M calls himself a man. I’ll call him “he” and “dude” whatever. Most guys I know feel the same way, but many women feel that, to them, being a woman is everything they had to grow up with, the experiences they’ve had, and that is what defines them. Maybe they’re wrong? Maybe they’re right. I don’t know but I find to even question it means you are “anti-trans” or “transphobic”. I noticed a bunch of comments being deleted on here so the discussion can’t be had.
Roy Ajax
I’m not saying people who don’t understand are transphobic. I’m saying that the queer community implies that anyone questioning things is anti-trans. Which isn’t the case. People just want to make sense of all this.
Josh447
Agreed.
Josh447
I don’t know that to question it means you have a phobia. Seems it’s more a lack of research and understanding. Trans is a very new idea to most so time and patience to those that don’t understand is warranted. To slam people as phobic just makes resolution take longer as it incites the issue. Just like to slam trans for their true selves does the same thing. But then we’re slow learners on both sides about such things.
iminheatlikeacat
It states there are 44 comments left on this article but only 18 (19 including mine if it doesn’t get removed) are showing. So 25 comments were removed because they were that bad they broke the sites T&C’s, and these are presumably regular commentators who don’t usually regularly have their comments removed en masse? Or is it, (like everything when it comes to this particular topic) anything that is not 100% in full agreement is deemed hateful and removed?