Drew Dalton is a bisexual Muslim from the U.K. And if you think that’s an oxymoron, think again.
“I always felt I stood out a little bit on the ‘gay scene’ because I was bisexual,” 38-year-old Dalton tells Gay Star News in a fascinating interview.“Add on the Islam and you’ve got a hard road ahead of you.”
Dalton works as a lecturer in sociology at the University of Sunderland. He is also the chair of Hidayah, a support organization for LGBTQ Muslims.
Related: Muslim father attempted suicide after his son came out, now they’re closer than ever
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He first came out as bisexual when he was 18. He converted to Islam years later after one of his best friends died tragically.
“I’d lost my best friend, I was out of depth about my place in the world. You start to question a lot more things,” he recalls. “I needed some solace, so I started to think more about Islam.”
But coming out as Muslim, he says, was way more difficult than coming out as bi.
“I felt that I was coming out twice,” he recalls. “Islam was a lot harder for me because you kind of internalize the Islamophobia that exists.”
He continues, “When I came out [as Muslim] on social media, I started to then feel the feedback. I was getting remarks like ‘how can you support a religion which kills gay people’ all this stuff.”
Others told him he had converted to the most “horrific religion” in the world. Some went so far as to delete him from their Facebook friends list.
Related: Where queerness meets Islam: Resistance from the margins of the margins
But suggesting a person can’t be bother LGBTQ and Muslim does a “disservice” to people living at that intersection, Dalton says.
I think there’s an issue in the LGBTI community. We’ve got so used to the narrative of religion being wrong, that it’s oppressed people… we’re trapped in that narrative now,.
Just say we’ve got a young Pakistani lad who’s been raised a Muslim that comes out at the age of 18, where does he go? Does he go back to his own Pakistani community and face the cultural beliefs that it’s wrong?
Or does he go to the gay community who tells him “you can’t be Muslim because it’s a religion that oppresses us”.
But Dalton says it’s possible to be queer and Muslim. And anyone who suggests otherwise is speaking from a place of ignorance.
“You can be both and you can be very proud to be both,” he argues.
Dalton is now calling on others in the LGBTQ community to stop isolating their Muslim counterparts and instead be allies for them.
“We’re a minority within a minority,” he says. “We really need people who aren’t a Muslim to defend us.”
Related: Queer Muslim activist Shawn Ahmed reflects on Pride, Orlando, and his faith
Paco
I guess we have to agree or have our comment deleted.
Well I don’t agree with him. His religion made up fantasy and is no different than the other big one and both are used to attack LGBTQ people around the world. That is a fact no matter how he tries to spin it.
queerty02
You can choose to follow whatever religion you want. You can grow out your sideburns like a Hasidic Jew, or shave your head like a monk. But you can’t choose to be gay, straight, bi, or pan!
Xzamilloh
Agreed. The religion itself is stupid and antiquate BS that has no place in today’s society. Sorry bout it. Plus, he never addressed the disconnect between the majority of Muslims polled in the world and homosexuality. Anecdotes only demonstrate that it is slightly better for him, and being in the west allows him a kind of freedom that LGBT Muslims in the middle east do not get to enjoy
theafricanwiththemouth
Very true!!
No matter how anyone tries to spin it, religion, whether Christian or Islam, will always remain the worst enemy of the LGBT community and it’s folks.
Of course he can spew all this crap about being BI and Muslim comfortably in the western world where he dwells, but let him venture down here and let’s see if he can still give this cheap empty lip service.
The fact is that majority of Muslims and Christians are homophobic (LGBT-phobic) to the core and as an african, i can boldly say that as of recent times, the Muslims are the worst and most violent when it comes to the issue of LGBT people.
Being LGBT and still clinging to religious organizations (not the idea of God now, but the religion specifically) is the most idiotic thing ever. But then, as much as i despise ignorant talk from folks like this fella, there’s still that slight chance that these LGBT Muslims and Christians can actually influence positive change in the rigid, iron clad belief systems of these religions.
You can’t blame the part of the LGBT community that is Islamophobic for being so and at least, being Muslim (or Christian) is a choice even when brought up in said religion.
I’d really like to see what the young Pakistani “lad” will choose. Will he go back to his Pakistani community that will possibly behead/stone to death/jail/stigmatize/discriminate him for being gay, something he can’t not be. Or will he go to the LGBT community that will still let him in despite being a member of a religion that attacks gay people. A religion he can choose to be or not be a part of. Also, i bet such a young man can deal with the supposed Islamophobia in the LGBT community more easily than the hatred that’ll be poured on him in his Pakistani community for being gay.
This “lecturer” should just go sit in a corner with his bi and Muslim speech because his faith in Islam is clearly superficial going by the empty statements he made.
jkb
He can prove it to me any day! Yummy
gymmuscleboy
This hottie proves it. Islam is a good thing! GAYS 4 ISLAM! YAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!
jkb
@gymmuscleboy so my attraction to him means I validate his religion and all of the beliefs found within that religion? You’re an idiot. Get off your high horse.
gymmuscleboy
@jkb Of course not. Chillax. Can’t you take a joke?
Vince
He can be proud all he wants. I just hope he doesn’t share that pride too much. I don’t think his fellow muslim brothers feel the same way.
Vince
I’ll say this though. At least being bi he can hide away the gay part when needed. I’d say the majority of Muslims in that part of the world are “bi”.
Hussain-TheCanadian
My straight friends (half of them are muslims, my best friend and his brothers are muslims) accept me just fine – Did I lose friends after coming out, yes forsure, but I kept the good ones. My cousins also know, out of 20 people, only 2 don’t accept it and talk trash from time to time – It no longer bothers me.
All im saying Vince, dont brush all Muslims with the same big brush, assumptions are the door to misunderstandings.
Paco
The problem with these “religions”, @Hussain-TheCanadian, is that there is no accountability. The religions give the individual a get out of jail free card and tells the followers that only their God will pass judgement upon them. In other words, no accountability, and in their minds, their God tends to agree with every hateful prejudice they have.
Why are it the non=bigoted minority standing in front of the innocent gay couple that are about to be caned in public or worse? They do nothing.
Vince
The US and Canada is way different then the rest of the world. In many Muslim majority countries being gay is still enforced capital punishment.
Paco
Edit- *Why “aren’t” the non-bigoted minority standing in front of the innocent gay couple about to be caned in public or worse?
Vince
@Paco. Yes and nothing brings out the muslim folk more then a good caning, hanging, or throwing the queers off bldgs.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Paco – I honestly cannot disagree with what you said, Islam by its very nature is not a centralized religion, be it in the Sunni or Shia form; the Qur’an is an open source, and Muslims argue about the interpretations of some verses to this very day. My job as a gay man is to understand the Quar’an and understand the passages many bigots and extremists use to oppress gay people in order to dispel their bigotry.
You also have to understand that 90% of Muslim countries are ruled over by dictatorships in one kind or another, people can’t speak freely about politics or the “court Imams” without being arrested – Saudi Arabia has just beheaded yesterday a female activist for attacking the monarchy and the “royal court’s religious establishment” – The Imam of Mecca has been arrested two days ago because he suggested in a religious lesson that “Shura”, meaning democracy, is the idealist form of rule.
It’s unfortunate that our western media doesn’t report these human right violations in English, but people are pushing back. We need a free society so the many can speak.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@ Vince –
You’re being extreme in your comments, the entire Arab world erupted during the Arab spring demanding freedom, equality and dignity – The Obama administration, along with the American deep state, did everything in their power to ensure the failure of these uprisings.
So spare me your “throwing people off of buildings” comment.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian Regarding your comment on the rule of muslim countries, we should also recognise that once a territory becomes majority-muslim (through immigration etc.), Islam becomes law. In other words, it is not just foreign territories that are at risk – Today, Brussels is only 15% muslim and as of October, there are 2 elected muslims who are pushing for “Belgium to become an Islamic state”. As immigration continues, this will be unstoppable. This is a threat to the west unfolding rapidly today and all people – especially gay people – need to be aware of it.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@ gymmuscleboy
Your entire post is is just paranoia and fear, which is a surprise coming from someone named “Gym Muscle boy” – I don’t know from where you’re getting this nonsense from, but you need to realize its nonsense.
There are eight version of Shariah law, all of them have their own spectrum, Muslims don’t even agree among themselves on which version to use, which makes sense because the religion is decentralized. So most individual Muslims adhere to one version or another and follow it on a personal level. Three or four Muslims majority countries have a Frankenstein hybrid system between Shariah law and European laws like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Sudan.
As for Brussels……WTF are you talking about?
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian This article is about homosexuality, and muslims overwhelmingly agree on that – it is morally wrong (see Pew Research). I am talking about the Islam Party in Brussels.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@ gymmuscleboy
The Pew research covers alcohol, suicide, fornication, and other topics, its not an exclusive opinion poll on homosexuality.
I just looked up the Islam Party in Belgium, thats a Salafi group/party – I hope they get their @sses handed to them – Once European governments start giving the middle finger to Saudi Arabia and its missionaries/money, the better we will be as a western society.
Chrisk
@gymmuscleboy. Yep. When it comes to the issue of gays the only disagreement Muslims have is how best to get rid of them. Whenever you put a group of them together never once have I seen even a small amount of tolerance. A barbaric religion.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian There is a question within that research which exclusively addresses homosexuality. I hope the Islam Party gets their asses handed to them, too – how does that address my point?
mr guy
Why do we never get similar signal boosting for Scientology, Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon LGBT on sites such as this? Just an innocent an observation
Vince
Here muslims are looked at as part of the oppressed like us. Therefore we need to side with them. That’s my best guess.
Hussain-TheCanadian
I personally think because Islam in the US/Canada is a minority religion, even though its the 2nd largest religion on the planet, and most likely will end up being the larges in 50 years – so we have to recognize that if being LGBT is around 7-10% of any population, we are talking about at least 150 million gay people that we need to support, love, and understand.
Kangol
Please post some links if you can. Queerty has published articles about queer/LGBTQ Mormons in the past, as well as LGBTQ Christians of other denominations, LGBTQ Jewish people, etc. But please post links about the positive LGBTQ Scientologists and Jehovah’s Witnesses if you’ve seen them.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian We have gay marriage all over the western world – we already love and understand those 150 million people. How much more of our “support, love, and understanding” does Islam need to before they support their own?
Hussain-TheCanadian
@gymmuscleboy
Gay marriage is new to the United States – Also “Islam” doesn’t need you to do anything – Just pressure your government to stop selling weapons to, and prop up dictatorships in the name of money and Muslims will find their way on their own.
I’m pressuring my government right now to cancel the weapons deal with Saudi Arabia.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian There is a long, long journey of societal acceptance which leads to gay marriage – a long journey which the muslim world has not even begun. Unfortunately, this issue is far beyond Saudi Arabia and arms dealings. Nowhere in the muslim world is setting the example.
dwes09
There have been articles here about LGBT Mormons. As for JW and Scientology, gays are summarily kicked out of both groups if they are open about it. In any case, they are both tiny cults of little consequence. Mormonism is a slightly larger cult of greater consequence.
I know both gay Muslim men, and Muslims who have no problem with gay people. No different from Christians or Jews or Hindus.
As for the killing of gay folks, I am willing to bet if we compare the numbers of gay men killed in various Muslim majority countries with those killed in Christian majority countries, be it legally sanctioned or otherwise, there would be little difference either in total numbers or brutality. And if things are so horribly dangerous for gay men in the middle east, why are there so many men in Riyadh and Tehran on Daddyhunt, Planetromeo and other not particularly secret or discrete sites?
JK 1984
Yes it is possible to be Muslim/Evangelical Christian/Mormon/etc and be gay at the same time however the vast majority of these religions are anti-LGBTQ and a significant amount of LGBTQ people have had bad experiences with religion support it is natural to be suspicious of any religion.
If you have an accepting church, temple, synagogue or whatever that is great for you but don’t expect people who have been hurt by religion before to be open to it, even if it is an accepting denomination.
gymmuscleboy
I support your skepticism, but I don’t agree with lumping Christianity and Islam together. The western world (historically and culturally Christian) is relatively open and welcoming to gay people. The muslim world is a dark and hopeless place for gay people (see Pew Research “muslim views on morality”). This is because the teachings and prophets of the two religions are very different (Jesus vs. Muhammad).
JK 1984
Hahahahahahaha.
Separating religion from country/region needs to happen here. Yes western culture is more accepting, but that is because western culture has grown more secular. And that change had only really happen need inn the last 30-40 years (or less) in most countries
And yes there are accepting churches, denominations, etc but in western countries most mainline churches are still against either full equality, marriage equality or even making homosexuality legal.
That’s without even talking about the Christian churches in Africa, Russia, parts of Europe and Asia that have not scheme views (Uganda wanting to kill gay people for example).
So while the West may be more accepting, it is secular culture, not religion that plays the major role in that.
dwes09
“This is because the teachings and prophets of the two religions are very different (Jesus vs. Muhammad).”
Sorry, looked at by an outsider, Christianity is a pretty “dark and hopeless place” for gay people. At best a few sects are slightly tolerant so long as gay folks know their place. An even smaller number accept same sex marriages as real. But just like Islam, the overwhelming majority see LGBT people as hellbound sinners with nothing but celibacy (or sham marriage) to get them into heaven.
As for Jesus’ message, it is as ambiguous and easily warped as Muhammad’s is. Were it not, there would not be the plethora of sects and cults that comprise Christianity. With out even thinking on it hard i can come up with a dozen Christian sects. all of whom differ and all of whom claim to have “the truth”. And most of whom think that homosexuals are the worst of the worst.
They may not mostly encourage killing homosexuals, but they either look the other way or are sufficiently assuaged in their hatred by the knowledge that we will burn for eternity in the lake of fire while they dine on rare victuals in their “many mansions” waiting in heaven.
If you don’t find most of Christianity as horrifying as you find Islam you are not paying attention.
gymmuscleboy
@JK 1984 It is hard to say that Islam – a religion that punishes apostasy with death – lends itself to secularism, or even science. And regarding the accepting nature of western countries – contrast the prophet Jesus (who taught kindness and forgiveness) vs. the prophet Muhammad (a conquering warlord). Christianity is capable of, and has given rise to, a lot more (Uganda etc. are outliers). I know Christianity has done a lot of BS – especially for gay people – but not every religion is equal. In a historical context, Christianity alone provided the basis for a lot of good in the world, and the risk of drawing a false equivalency between Christianity and Islam is the slow creep of religious oppression back into western society.
JK 1984
Things Muslim/Islamic culture have given (a couple minutes research, cbf doing more):
– Reading glasses
– Algerbra
– Guitars
All religions have provided good and bad both in the past and the present.
Many Islam majority countries previously had democratic, secular societies, many of which were overthrown and replaced by dictatorships funded primarily by the USA either for their resources or as a bulwark against “the Commies”.
Also I never said Christianity and Islam are equivalent, overall Islam is worse (as a whole in my opinion), but Christianity isn’t good purely because it is the least worse option.
gymmuscleboy
@dwes09 I strongly disagree that Jesus’ message is comparable to that of Muhammad. Jesus lived a life demonstrating his teachings of love and kindness, whereas Muhammad lived the life of a conquering warlord. Regardless, as I have said on other comments, the real debate here is not Islam vs. Christianity, it is Islam vs. the west. Then the answer becomes clearer.
SnakeyJ
These articles are ridiculous. Someone can NOT be gay and Muslim. It is forbidden. The only way he can live this way is because he’s in a western society. I’ll believe him when he goes to a middle eastern country and lives openly and happily there.
Brian
Lots of things are forbidden, but they happen anyway. Catholicism allows rapists to get promotions. With all the Muslims in the world, there must be hundreds of thousands who are gay or bi.
gymmuscleboy
@Brian There are gays in the muslim world, but of course they pretend to be straight by threat of death. Catholicism is far from perfect, but 70% of US Catholics believe homosexuality should be accepted. Contrast that with the vast majority of muslim countries, where over 80% believe homosexuality is “morally wrong” (see Pew Research). Please do not make the false equivalency between the routine and encouraged honour killings of gay people in the Muslim world with molestation in the Catholic Church – you will notice that one is absolutely condemned yet the other has the word “honour” in it. Lives for gay people under Islam are completely incomparable with ours in the west and we must stop apologising for it.
Mick406
SnakeyJ
You are right. According to Islamic law, not only is homosexuality forbidden, Muslims are expected to kill them. I don’t care what ‘branch’ of Islam you belong to, the rules are the rules. You cannot be a Muslim and be gay.
And people . . .stop with the whipping up on Christians and comparing those churches with Islam. When was the last time a Christian church threw someone off a building or beheaded them because they were gay. Yeah . . . some Christian denominations abhor homosexuality, but they don’t stone you or physically punish you. It’s just a belief for those Christians and it doesn’t require them to kill someone over it. Give everyone else a break. Only in Islam are you obligated to kill someone!
So, this white fellow has joined this cult? Is he going to subscribe to the other rules, or will he bend them like he did the ‘gay rule’? What about the command to KILL ALL non-Muslims? It’s a belief written in stone. No one has ever had those words erased out of modern published versions of the Koran. It is a major directive in that book. Kill the infidels. And if you ain’t a Muslim, YOU are the infidel! I’ve never understood how Muslims say they are a religion of peace and still adhere to that commandment to convert you or kill you.
I think of nice and brilliant Muslim medical doctors here in the States and I wonder how someone so ‘civilized’ so ‘Westernized’, and so educated could still want to continue being a Muslim. I suppose they are like ‘cafeteria Catholics’ and only believe what they feel like believing, and no there are no consequences because they live here in this country with protection.. Any way you look at it, only someone subhuman, deranged, and with a mal-formed brain could want to belong to that ‘political ideology’ known as Islam. It’s not anywhere NEAR connected to ‘real’ religion.
It’s total objective is to take over the world. And if they do, what are they going to do with it? They will just keep on killing, that’s what. Islam has no other objective really. It’s all about conquering, coercion, and control. Fighting and killing is all they know to do. Show me any 100% Muslim country that is productive and its people are free and happy.
I do hope that Queerty will publish the story of what happens to this guy . . . like, when he gets killed one night by a mob of his ‘fellow’ Muslims. He is doomed. Somewhere down the road, word will leak out to the more intolerant thugs of the Muslim ‘hood’ and they will kill him. What a poor and misguided oaf!
dwes09
“Show me any 100% Muslim country that is productive and its people are free and happy.”
First of all, there are no 100% Muslim countries.
However, the largest Muslim country in the world is quite productive and pretty darned free. That would be Indonesia.
Prior to USSR and US meddling Afghanistan, which was overwhelmingly Muslim, was free and productive and secular. Images from the 60’s and 70’s show it looking very middle class and shockingly like the US at that time. The same was true of Iran, Iraq, Turkey and others. It was the reaction to poorly thought through US foreign policy and corporate actions that gave birth to the Islamic radicals in those countries. It’s all there in photographs and documents.
Saudi Arabia and the UAE, whihc form most people’s image of Islam constitutes only 10%, or less, of the world Islamic population.
Islam certainly needs the kind of reformation that Christianity began to undergo when it was the same age Islam is now, but it is not the horror show xenophobes would like to paint it as.
DuMaurier
He’s as Muslim in “a western society” as he’d be in the middle east. The difference of course is the social, cultural and political climate in, say, Denmark versus Saudi Arabia. This guy has reconciled his sexual orientation with his faith. How did he do it? I don’t know, I’m not Muslim or an expert on the religion, but I know it’s not a single monolith, any more than Christianity is. Religions are man-made, and therefore reflect the preexisting attitudes and biases of the people and culture where they’re founded. Then they expand and change as they move into new territory (and change more as time does what time does)
queerty02
But is it possible to be a white Muslim?
Brian
Christianity is extremely popular in South Korea.
Xzamilloh
Ask Chechnya
Chrisk
Which is why it’s so ridiculous that people make this into a racist argument. Shows their ignorance.
pianistee
I could give you the examples such as Turkey, Bosnia and Albania. These people are pretty white and has a high level of muslim population.
Kangol
Sheesh, do you ever watch the news? Did you forget the Bosnian War, or the war in Kosovo? Kosovo is more than 90% Muslim, and Bosnia-Herzegovina is 50-70% Muslim, and they’re in Europe. Albania, in Europe, is predominantly Muslim. There are large Muslim communities in Macedonia, in Europe and significant ones in Bulgaria, Cyprus, and Georgia (the country). In all of these countries, the people would, under US criteria, be white. Other European countries (Britain, France, Russia, Denmark, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.) have Muslim populations, but they are predominantly North Africa, Middle Eastern or sub-Saharan African.
StraightnNarrow
It’s impossible to be a “good” Muslim and be gay at the same time. They are mutually exclusive. This insufferable white guy who claims to be bisexual is simply delusional.
Hussain-TheCanadian
What a ridiculous comment contradicted by reality it self. I think you’re projecting whatever insecurities you have on others.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian The percentage of muslims who say that homosexuality is wrong absolutely “off the charts”. See Pew Research “muslim views on morality”. With all due respect, you are living in a western bubble.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@ gymmuscleboy
Yes i’m familiar with the Pew research results, the majority of Muslims asked said that homosexuality was “morally wrong” – It didn’t surprise me, people can answer in many ways, especially in the abstract – This is why im fighting to put a face on the abstract and push back – Sociologically this is how societies progress.
Closed societies need to be opened first so the conversation can happen.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian The answer is manifest in practice – it is not abstract. Where are the gay rights? The freedom of speech? The pride celebrations? There is little to no manifestation of the acceptance of homosexuality in these muslim territories because it is what people say it is – morally unaccepted.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@gymmuscleboy
Seriously you think im the one living in a Western Bubble while you’re the one asking about gay rights and pride parades in Muslim countries?
Did you miss what I said above about most governments in the Muslim world being oppressive right wing dictatorships? People can’t protest anything, let alone gay rights.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian The most democratic majority-muslim countries overwhelmingly say that homosexuality is wrong in the Pew Research.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@ gymmuscleboy
I’m not aware of any Muslim majority country that can be classified as a democracy; besides, the situation wasnt that much different in the United states, not even a mere 20 years ago – Anyways im not here to give excuses and apologize for Muslim populations around the world, im trying to give context so we, as gay westerners, can understand whats happening socially in that part of the world.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian I couldn’t disagree more! America 20 years ago was drastically different from the muslim world. Honour killings were unheard of, not to mention secular rule of law preventing them in the first place. Even in 1990, 50% believed that homosexuality should be legal. There were gay rights, representation in the media, and freedom of speech. Contrast that with the muslim world – Sharia law means that the overwhelming muslim religious view/interpretation – homosexuality is wrong – is law. I agree with your suggestion to “open up” (westernise) muslim societies, but until that experiment is complete, it is clear what the vast majority of muslims think about homosexuality.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@gymmuscleboy
Come on man be fair, I’m looking the Pew research report from 2017 and it highlights American public acceptance of homosexuality from 1991 till this day and it shows an increase in public acceptance. Its true its not as bad as in those Muslim majority countries, but I bet if we go back to the 1980, 1970, and 1960s in the United states, that acceptance percentage would plunge too.
Also honor killings is a cultural phenomenon (which last time I checked the UN numbers in the Arab world, it has gone down), it has nothing to do with Islam, besides I didn’t even bring up honor killings.
gymmuscleboy
Honour killings are highly correlated with muslim societies, and they are committed to uphold the honour of Islamic values.
Heywood Jablowme
@Hussain-TheCanadian:
I like your idea that “closed” Muslim societies “need to be opened.”
Any idea HOW to open them up? (Without getting death threats, I mean!)
You first. Or should I say second, since I guess Irshad Manji was first but she hasn’t made much headway.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian USA in 1980: 43% say homosexuality should be legal vs. the most democratic muslim-majority countries today (like Indonesia and Pakistan): 1% say homosexuality is morally acceptable. The vast majority of muslims think very, very differently from westerners on this issue and we must stop pretending otherwise. Also please see my comment about honour killings above.
PinkoOfTheGange
@GMB you are comparing apples to quinces.
Some one can want something to be legal but still think it is immoral. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
BTW check out the christian orthodoxy from Russia, Turkey, Greece, and Jews of Israel and get back to me on their acceptance of da’ homosexuals.
gymmuscleboy
@PinkoOfTheGange Here’s a fairer comparison: In 2014 a Gallup poll found that 70% in USA said “the area where they live is a good place for gay people”. Only 1% in Pakistan and 2% in Indonesia said the same.
I’m confused by your last paragraph – I never said Russia etc. was accepting of homosexuality?!
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Heywood
Let’s send them our doctors, engineers, scientists, politicians who share democratic education, public intellectuals, and democratic philosophers.
Our politicians, in our name, are selling the majority of these regimes weapons, intelligence training, spy, tracking and censorship software, and political cover.
Imagine if we pressure these governments to change, challenge them at every turn in the UN, refuse to sell them any of the above mentioned, and help these societies build a civil society on the basis of secularism, equality, fraternity, and democracy.
This is how we open up these societies.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian The effect of western arms trade upon muslim views of homosexuality is utterly insignificant. When will you stop deflecting blame and hold the muslim world responsible for their own affairs? If the west refuses, they will continue to pursue their desire for weapons from China instead. In fact, they have already begun to do so. The muslim world is the creator of their own conflicts and their own values.
Hussain-TheCanadian
What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that our complicity in keeping these societies enslaved by a ruthless ruling class has nothing to do with them being closed off societies where ignorance, free speech, and the free exchange of ideas freely?
Would you like me to post some books on the subject?
You are either a simpleton or a Muslim hater, which one is it?
Hussain-TheCanadian
Where ignorance, lack of* free speech and the lack of* free exchange of ideas is suppressed politically.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian Nobody here is advocating undue influence upon muslim countries. So getting back to my original point – preventing the negative influence of Islam on the west – muslim attitudes towards homosexuality are evidently tremendously worse than our own, and we need to stop pretending.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian And yes, I am suggesting that any western influence has little to do with the extent to which muslim societies are closed off and not embracing of individualism, free speech, and the exchange of ideas – these are western ideals that have little to do with Islam. It is hard to argue that a theocracy wishes for any of the above – faith in god is vulnerable to attack by the harsh scrutiny of objective discussion.
Hussain-TheCanadian
As I suspected, you don’t know what you’re talking about, this entire discussion with you just shows me one thing, and one thing only, your knowledge of the Qur’an is zero, and your whole input about Islam has been without any backing, just your weird warped opinion, which is ridiculous to say the least.
You need to do a lot of reading on the effects of American interference in Middle East, and the effects it had on the societies there; as I said earlier, there are books on the subject that I can recommend. You lack of knowledge on the subject, let alone your lack of knowledge on what makes societies the way they are, is troubling because you’re pretending to be an expert, and you’re not.
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian Do you know what an ad hominem attack is? Even if you’re right about me, do you have a response to my arguments at all?
Aj76
I agree ……yes you can be LGBTQI & have faith in religion……I’m gay & Catholic ……& unfortunately we are told we can’t be ……so where do we go ?!
I’m both & proud ……there are many LGBTQI who also believe in religion……why can’t we except our differences?!
Vince
If you want to go bark at the moon gods every night have at it. As long as you don’t hurt anyone I don’t care what you do. I’ll still keep my distance as I do any crazy person.
Mick406
Do as I do. I attend Mass and participate like I have all my life. I haven’t got up and announced at church I’m gay. I just go with the flow and block out the thoughts that my church condemns me. This is one area where I think it is between me and my God, not between me and human hierarchy. I don’t bring it up in Confession. I keep it all to myself. I don’t have to be pleased with my church for its rules, but the church can’t be pleased with me for who I am either. And there is nothing they can do about it. One of the reasons I have had no qualms about bucking the system, is I believe that in a very short time period the church will soften its stance and allow us to be (in their words) “in full communion”. Remember when divorced people couldn’t even attend church? And then they relaxed that rule and allowed them to come to church. And then a few years later they even allowed them to start going to Communion. No longer are divorcees declared ‘sinners’ and unwanted. This is going to happen also with the gay agenda. So, why suffer now and give up the ‘fruits of your religion’ when down the road soon, you will be welcomed to participate fully and with open arms. They are gonna HAVE to do this anyway because the church is dwindling, especially since all the abuse things came up. They need the ‘Mass count’ to keep things going. I also look at the church with great respect and at the same time I know it is all human-ran and very prone to errors. So . . . I just say ‘fuck ’em’. I’ll go to church if I want to and no one can stop me.
Xzamilloh
He’s right, you can be Muslim and LGBT. You can be a lot of nonsensical things and still be LGBT
samuel88
I got kick out of mosque and they found out I’m gay. Now, I’m no longer member of being Muslim because of their homophobic view and gay harassment. I lost many friends and families except for my mom. I would say good for him and good luck.
I hope don’t get deleted from queerty and I don’t understand I can’t criticize my own religion.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Samuel – That is so horrible Samuel im so sorry that you had to go through that pain; my dad lost it when I told him (he’s over it now) and I lost half the people I knew too, believe me you’re better off without them, and i hope you’re doing better.
gymmuscleboy
Christianity can be freely criticised, and it has lead to the creation of nations where freedom of speech is law. Unfortunately those same nations do not permit the criticism of Islam in practice, because the citizens are under threat of terrorism or death by muslim immigrants (like what happens when somebody draws Mohammed).
dwes09
Christianity had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of free speech! And many on the right in this country object to the freedom to criticize Christianity. Free speech as a paradigm came out of the philosophical movement known as the enlightenment. Its theorists were read extensively by our country’s founders. The enlightenment eschewed conventional Christian theology, and in fact Universalism (later called Unitarianism), despised as apostate by most Christian theology, came out of that movement, as did an embrace of Deism (also seen as apostate by Christians).
gymmuscleboy
@ dwes09 I disagree. Christianity was part of the social foundation that gave rise to the enlightenment. Of the three major monotheistic religions, guess which one did not go through the enlightenment.
Mick406
You, my friend, are going to be the answer to the ENTIRE Islam vs. Western culture and other religions. It’s going to take brave people like yourself to help Islam enter into the modern world. Just as my Christian religion no longer abides by the Old Testament of our Bible, Islam is going to have to re-invent itself and update the Koran and ‘soften it up’ a little. I’m trying to not say anything terrible here, but right now, Islam followers are killing a lot of people because they say that’s what the Koran tells them to do. If those texts are not modernized and ‘tamed down’, the whole world is doomed because we will have enormous wars between Muslims and the rest of the world.
I would love to know more about you. You spoke in a rather charming and intriguing way. I would love to know where you live now. How old you are, and what you plan to do with your life. I’m very curious!
Mike
alfred
A little inauthentic, no? the guy participated in Buddhism before Islam. Reeks of white guy trying ‘exotic’ things. I also find it a little distasteful, having many gay friends who have been cut off from their Muslim families here in london for coming out. To act like there is no issue between homosexuality and the teaching of Islam is disingenuous. I try to allow people to speak whatever, and live however. Hell, he could have claimed Islam cured his gay thoughts and all I would do is roll my eyes, but a white guy who chose Islam, talking over the voices of gay men who have had their lives ripped apart by this religion is just tacky. Coupling that with the narrative of how he is oppressed by his faith (and the subtle jabs at the ‘gay’ community as being accepting of it/him) is gross. The closet metaphor played out, mate.
Chrisk
Yep. A pseudo-intellectual and privileged contrarian that live for the drama. I couldn’t imagine being in the same room with him.
theafricanwiththemouth
Exactly. All i see here is an oblivious superficial person.
To be honest, Muslims whom are accepting of LGBT are either very superficial and know nothing about their religion past the dress style. OR are simply non violent towards LGBT, will associate with them but still see them as sinners living parallel to what they consider to be right.
No matter how they twist it, the Quran (and bible) stands against homosexuality. Simple.
Of course a religion or a set of believers can claim to accept LGBT people. Just not as clean people, but as sinners who all they can do is pray and hope for the redemption of their souls. That will always be at the back of their minds no matter how accepting they seem in our faces. Many of them (those who claim acceptance and aren’t superficial) will still see an LGBT person as a sinner at the core of it all, in desperate need of devine intervention.
dwes09
” OR are simply non violent towards LGBT, will associate with them but still see them as sinners living parallel to what they consider to be right.”
How is that at all different from the attitude of most Christians?
“Of course a religion or a set of believers can claim to accept LGBT people. Just not as clean people, but as sinners who all they can do is pray and hope for the redemption of their souls.”
This is precisely how most “accepting” Christians see LGBT folks.
gymmuscleboy
@dwes09 Islam vs. Christianity is not the real debate here. The real question is Islam vs. the western world (the post-Christian society we live in today). Then the answer becomes clearer.
theafricanwiththemouth
@dwes09 and that is why in both my replies on this article, i’ve tried to not use Islam or Muslim as the exclusive word (except one or two times). I either say “religion”, “Religious organization” or I put Christianity on the side along with Islam.
I’m African and I’m fully aware of how homophobic Christians in this part of the world are. Don’t even try to make it seem like i’m giving Christianity a pass. The article is about a bi Muslim. Not a comparison between religions. So i don’t see how my comment should insinuate comparison in the favour of Christianity which i made no mention of. After re-reading my comment i can at least say i diffused into using “religion” and “set of believers” , in which case i’m referring to not only Islam but all religions that are popularly homophobic and still have few “belivers” who at least, try to be accepting.
Maybe you should re-read my comment especially from the second quote you made and stop trying to hurriedly find comparison favouring Christianity in it. If you still see it as such then know it was not my intention.
But I’ll keep on hammering on one thing though, in this present time, the Muslims are definitely the more violent in anything that is alien to their religion. They get more outraged, more offended to the point of blood shed, and are the more defensive of their religion (still to the point of blood shed) in comparison to Christians especially in African countries (now actual comparison). Mind you, i’m speaking based on recent times and experiences in my own damn country. I know what happened when the 14 year jail term for the crime of homosexuality (either by participation or association) was passed and these crazy witch huntings began in the northern (Muslim dominated) part of the country. Every now and then news or videos pop up of inhuman treatment of suspected individuals. Mind you, sharia law is what Is practiced in these Muslim Dominated areas so this kinds of death is no longer news. Thankfully things have calmed down a bit, but the situation is still dire.
Anyway, i always try to make it clear that both christianity and Islam are deeply homophobic religions despite having few believers that are accepting (some of these believers are mostly superficial too with their faith). But one of them currently is more dangerous than the other and more prone to drastic, devastating, violent reactions. That’s how i see it.
Heywood Jablowme
Can you be Muslim and LGBT while eating a BLT?
gymmuscleboy
No
PinkoOfTheGange
turkey bacon would be cool
dwes09
I know Muslims who eat pork, Muslims who drink, Jews who eat pork (me for example), and Jews who don’t keep the Sabbath.
Orthodoxy wanes in an affluent multi-cultural society. And with education.
Orthodoxy flourishes in stressful conditions and within closed minds (thus the growth of evangelical/fundamentalist attitudes in places having a difficult transition from the 19th century to the 21st (like parts of the middle east, north Africa and middle America).
Jack Meoff
The thing I took away from that article is that he turned to Islam after experiencing a tragic loss. I feel this is true of many people who only turn to religion because they aren’t coping with life. They don’t think about joining a religion until they hit rock bottom so what does that tell us about religion? Does religion make their lives better or does it just pray on the weak and vulnerable to increase it’s numbers? I have seen so many broken or weak willed people get drawn into religion when really all they needed was a stranger support network.
Donston
The fact that he went from Christian to no religion to Buddist to Muslim is indeed suspect. It seems less about beliefs and more about constantly trying to find some comfort, emotional stability and purpose. And there’s no bigger catalyst to changes in your life than tragedy/trauma. However, as long as he stands up against homophobia from Muslim communities he doesn’t deserved to be attacked.
gymmuscleboy
Drew Dalton, as a lecturer, why don’t you go and live in a muslim-majority country so you can really understand your new religion? We know what happens to people that openly pervert the word of the prophet over there. How dare you lecture in the west that Islam is benign to gay people!
PinkoOfTheGange
Never heard of Martin Luther?
95 theses changed the course of christianity.
If the Brownist hadn’t founded Plymouth the US could of been Spanish or Dutch.
It is those that are considered heretics that bring change not only to religion. Not the dogmatic.
gymmuscleboy
@ PinkoOfTheGange If he advocated a reformation (of Islam), like MLK did, I would support him, but he doesn’t. His message is “Be an ally with Islam… you can be both queer and muslim”, which is absolute BS. You can maybe just eke out an existence being gay and muslim in a western country, only because there currently aren’t enough muslims around to kill you. To the extent that he increases the influence of Islam in the west by misrepresenting it, shame on him.
Donston
That he avoids talking about the beliefs that perhaps a greater percentage of Muslims have concerning homosexuality is troubling, as is his avoidance talking about what is happening to gay/homo-leaning/gay-living men in Muslim countries. He’s pressing “queers” to be more “open-minded” when his focus on “open-mindedness” should be elsewhere. I give him a pass because it’s apparent he’s found some type of solitude in the religion and hasn’t started gay-bashing. I just hope he doesn’t start going to clubs trying to convert people.
Heywood Jablowme
Yes, I suspect Drew Dalton finds it difficult to discuss any of this stuff with (mostly immigrant) Muslims at the mosque (if indeed he actually attends one), and finds it quite easy to harangue gay guys in gay bars about why WE should be more open-minded. Probably over a beer, too, since he makes his own rules. He’s quite the religious reformer! Next he’ll start a “halal bacon” business?
dwes09
“The fact that he went from Christian to no religion to Buddist to Muslim is indeed suspect. ”
Why exactly is searching for a faith or philosophy that suits you suspect, when the faith you were fed as a child no longer does (especially after trauma)?
Please use logic to answer, as your comment seems rather illogical to me. One must practice a faith (or live without faith) for some period of time before deciding if it is for you. That is one of the reasons Judaism makes conversion such a long process.
Donston
Because it hints towards someone in constant searching mode. It’s more about finding self-comfort than about a belief system, which I suppose faith is often about. I understand that life is often a journey about finding solice and self-comfort and purpose and settling internal conflicts, especially for “queers”. But I’m more interested in hearing more about that than constantly telling gays what they need to be open-minded about.
friend4life
I think you need yo read what it says again end of the day he is happy been Islam and happy been gay so pipe down will you and starting thinking about what you say he can teach where ever he liked what has it really got to do with you I used to be a teacher myself I am also gay so are you going to tell me I need to go and teach somewhere else get a grip its the 21st century
gymmuscleboy
@friend4life What this article has to do with me as a westerner (especially as a gay westerner) is the preservation of our culture, our safety, and respect for the truth.
DCguy
Converts are always the most hard-core.
What he leaves out is the fact that just like with most of the big religions out there….they hate LGBTs.
What he isn’t doing is saying HOW that young Muslim kid is supposed to handle it. Are there mosques for him to go to that aren’t going to attack him for being gay? Is there one where a newly out lesbian can go to that aren’t going to preach that she should be harmed, kicked out etc…
Just like a kid coming out in any of the Evangelical, Mormon, or strict Catholic churches, all have to deal with that. This guy isn’t explaining any of that, just sort of saying “Gee, everything’s great, lets all hold hands” but he’s avoiding the truth that all of these big religions preach harm to LGBTs.
If he can’t speak to that, then he’s just another attention seeker trying to get his 15 minutes.
AndThenTheresMax
…is this the part where I am supposed to forget that in many Islamic countries they EXECUTE, STONE, BEHEAD or DISMEMBER gay men?! I know someone is gonna scream “Islamaphobia”. Why is telling the truth “phobic”. Here’s the truth. Islam has never supported, nurtured or forwarded any LGBTQ person. My mistake, yes they have. They were forwarded them to the firing squad. So I ask, why is he proud to be part of a religion that supports this?
Rock-N-RollHS
Incredible to read about how much ignorance and assumption is on this comments site. Clearly, people here only know about Muslims–practicing or cultural–from limited outlets. I wonder how many actual Muslims people commenting on this site actually know. I’m no fan of religion–and Christianity as practiced by much of American ain’t no friend of gays–but people are far more complex than their religious backgrounds.
My advice: get out in the world and actually meet the people you are judging–Muslim, Christian, or Jew.
AndThenTheresMax
“Incredible to read about how much ignorance and assumption is on this comments site.”
Really? Ignorance huh? Let me tell you a little bit about my so called “ignorance”. In 2010 I was involved in an Amnesty International campaign to save two boys in Iran who were about to be stoned to death by their mothers for KISSING! Just kissing. Where were you? Oh yeah you didn’t hear about it or didn’t care.
In 2011 I was involved in saving a lesbian who had been raped by her village of Muslim men who, felt that she just needed a “man” to will it out of her. Again, where were you?
In 2014 the Rainbow Railroad in Canada, which I supported, was involved with rescuing 12 Syrian men from being murdered from a strict Muslim encampment. Again, where were you?
Oh and let’s not forget: 9-11, Lockerbie, the Paris massacre or the Charlie Hebdo shootings. Forget about those in between downloading porn did we?
And I can’t believe this twit above me had the balls to even type the words, “My advice: get out in the world and actually meet the people you are judging!
Here’s my advice, I would but it will probably be the last thing I do. History has shown, you don’t make it back.
Oh and just so you know, wherever you are from. Leaving your small hick town for your capital city, dining on a falafel, then going to the tubs and letting someone who “looks Middle Eastern” “Bin Laden” your hole doesn’t make you “worldly”.
Just sayin…
theafricanwiththemouth
LMAO @AndThenTheresMax your comment is pretty much gold.
DuMaurier
@AndThenTheresMax, we know all those things, they’re terrible, and have nothing to do with Rock-N-RollHS’s very good and thoughtful advice to ‘get out’ and interact with the people you’re arbitrarily lumping with those who have done those horrible things. No one would suggest going to coffee with murderers and rapists. Maybe learn more about the millions of good people who’d never do such things, and who you’re condemning on the basis of a label. I know some of them, they do identify as Muslim, and they’d no more stone to death two boys for kissing than you would.
gymmuscleboy
@DuMaurier I would echo the same ‘get out (of your bubble)’ advice to you – the western muslims you are citing are unique among the hundreds of millions around the world. Look at the Pew Research polls of muslims who believe that stoning should be the punishment for adultery, and who believe in the death penalty for leaving Islam. The extent to which important western values are incompatible with Islam is epic, and wherever Islam gains critical mass, it seeks to dominate the culture and become law. Historically we know this to be true. So it is no surprise when the inevitable, horrific acts of terror that are committed in the name of Allah, and sanctioned by the Quran, go unchallenged by the muslim masses.
Hussain-TheCanadian
What horrific acts are sanctioned by the Qur’an?
gymmuscleboy
@Hussain-TheCanadian All the horrific acts of terror which some muslims commit in the name of Allah are sanctioned by the Quran:
“Kill disbelievers wherever you find them” (2:191-2)
“If you die fighting for Allah, you’ll be rewarded in heaven” (3:157)
“Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89”
“Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed, and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it.” 9:111
The list goes on and on.
Erna
“bisexual” = men and boys!
Charlie in Charge
So I do indeed have a few qualms about how many Muslims feel about LGBT people but I have also had Muslim people in my life be very kind and non-judgmental about my sexuality that I am very open about. I understand they seem to be the minority and that it probably has a lot to do with living in California.
I do always have a hard time with the comments that bag on all religious people as morons. I’m religious (one of the tiny Pagan ones and usually I have to check “Other” on anything official) and my religion is very much embracing of LGBT folks. We aren’t morons for believing what we believe, many of us work i the sciences, and most of us did not convert because of personal tragedy.
Jaroslaw
Many good comments and discussions previously on this thread, but my thoughts are that declaring one’s self “bisexual” might be defining the majority of one’s being via sexuality. Now to come out as Gay, at some point would be necessary since Gay people are at very great odds with the status quo. If I accept, theoretically for this post, that Mr. Dalton is truly bisexual AND Muslim it is pointless for him to come out as bisexual because if he finds “the right woman” or “man” he can settle down and be happy. There are no mainstream religions which advocate free, unfettered, unlimited sexual partners. Which I don’t think is a particularly good idea anyway.
Prax07
The Muslim religion is especially evil and should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Anyone that ssys it’s a peaceful loving thing is delusional.
friend4life
I say good on him for standing up everyone is on about Islamic people have done this and they have done at so why can’t the lgbt community come together and do something about it and supportt people like this guy I’m not been funny I was brought up in a Christan family and I come out as gay at 11 and was told I was not gay it was just something I was going through and what made it even harder I had to come out again at 13 which was then told by family I should be shot or hung as its not right and its sick and you keep going on about other peoples religious beliefs really why don’t we start looking at all the religious beliefs then as not money believe in gay bi transgender people like they should end of the day this guy is standing up for what he believes dose everyone have to have a go at him for what he believes no you don’t you should stand by people like him for standing up for himself well done mate and wish you all the success in the world mate I really do and for been a teacher/lecturer it must have been even harder and I must say your well fit mate you really are
Mick406
friend4life
You say you have been, or still are, a teacher and lecturer. I find this hard to believe while trying to read your paragraphs. You use absolutely NO punctuation. All run-on sentences. Your writings are a mess! I could barely follow what you were trying to convey.
Makes me wonder just what you ‘teach’. Your fellow graduates of whatever high school or college you attended are most assuredly totally embarrassed to see how you write, for it is a reflection on them and your respective institution(s).
Billysees
This is one of the best reasons to accept the LGBT Community —
Man’s ways are of the Lord, so how can we understand our own ways?…………Proverbs 20:24
offroadnutz
Who cares? Why is this relevant to anything? Don’t we have more pressing issues to worry about than this guy not being able to make up his mind whether he is gay or straight?
batesmotel
Drew Dalton? Doesn’t sound like the name of someone from one of the Middle Eastern countries. He’s a white boy from the U.K., so that’s unusual to be a Muslim and Bisexual. He is in the very minority.