“Why Some Americans Don’t Have Reason to Celebrate:”

“Sorry to be the buzz-kill at the liberal victory-party, but this election has been a historic nightmare for millions of gay Americans. In Florida, Arizona, and California propositions have been passed to amend state constitutions, permanently enshrining second-class citizenship into law. America has taken a tremendous step backward — actively revoking rights granted to citizens by state constitutions — though you’d never know it from most of the punditry and pontificating. Drunk on Obama victory, commentators are busy idealizing the American electorate, waxing rhapsodic about the inherent goodness of the American spirit, the progress it has made, and its tolerant essence.” [HuffPo]

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  • mds

    America is still the evil hell hole it was before Obama was elected.
    It just has created a new illusion to stand behind. Fuck the United
    States and its evil citizens.


    Yes We Can * Yes We Can * Yes We Can * Yes We Can


    Many in San Francisco, however, were less than distraught about Tuesday’s historic exercise of democracy.

    “Esteban Guevara, a gay man, stood by a “No on Prop. 8” sign made from miniature decorative pumpkins, lichen and tree branches in a store window.

    “It’s sad, but we got what we really needed — we got a much better president,” he said. “And this is just fuel. This won’t stop the gay rights movement at all.””

    OBAMA ’08

  • Churchill-y

    The market drops for the second straight day after an Obama win.

    All I got is change in my 401k. I hope.

  • Wolf


    Ignore them ALL. IGNORE ANY CHURCHILL-Y Just make them invisible like they are trying to do to us.

  • paul

    The sad part of all this is that though, crudely put, Churchill-y is
    right on a lot of what he is saying. It makes me sad that no black leader has stood up to chastise they way blacks chose to vote. It makes me sad that none seem to see the evil they contributed to.
    And it makes me sad that a group of people who should understand what it feels like to be mistreated and discriminated against chose to become the perpetrator. The citizens of America
    have learned nothing, and it makes very sad.

  • ChristopherM

    “That’s an imposter, I have never used the N word here.”

    No, Churchlady, but you’ve meant it multiple times. I seem to recall you referring to me as a “charcoal lover” once or twice. You are a disgusting bigot, regardless of what word you did or did not use, and I can’t imagine why anyone would want to impersonate you.

    I’m still letting the shock of this all sink in. I purposely ignored the Prop 8 vote Tuesday night because I was afraid it would be bad news and I didn’t want to ruin a fantastic night (both because of the presidential win and because I got engaged to my partner of 8 years). Does the minority vote against us hurt? Yup. It is exceedingly hurtful. But it is more complicated than that. This is an issue of religion, not race. And while evangelicals are not necessarily going to be receptive to our message of equality, we have a better shot at getting through to black evangelicals because they know what discrimination is like. It hurts many of them didn’t see that this time. It hurts more that the LDS church would rather spend $20 million to take away equal rights than to feed a hungry person. I just don’t understand that kind of hatred.

    It is time for a major strategy change. That strategy has to include having a more effective message than we had here, that shows us as real people so we can’t be dehumanized by these bigots. That also includes making sure we reach out to people of all races to get that message across, even when it means reaching to evangelicals that might be more receptive. And it does mean, I think, calling on racial minority leaders and demanding that they more actively honor the coalitions we have all tried to build while also trying to build more. We are in this together.

    That said, fucking Mormon leaders and their followers who gave to this mess and their magical underwear can all suck it.

  • Tim

    We need to reach out to other minority groups and work together to protect each other from the oppression of the majority.
    Lets not forget what the rainbow symbolizes, its the diversity of the GLBT community and, as shown from the election, unless we do a better job of drawing the parallels with other minority struggles we will continue to suffer setbacks.

  • RyanInSacto

    I *heart* you ChristopherM! Your fiancé snagged a good guy. Don’t despair… we will get our rights and YOU WILL GET MARRIED. And, yes, the Mormon church should collectively suck a bag of dicks.

  • Laurie

    A straight person’s opinion:
    It’s so crazy and so difficult and touchy. You say, “How difficult can it be, just let us get married”? The problem is not that you want to get married, the problem is the way you want the law to be written that will affect millions of people’s religeous freedoms. It’s complicated. The verbage would stand in the way of fundamental beliefs from the Bible, the Torah, the Koran and of the many different churches, mosques, synagogs and other long indocterined beliefs. If prop 8 failed then, if you wanted to, could come to my church (or to a synagog or mosque) and hve the right to demand or ask that my pastor marry you (yeah, you probably wouldn’t do it but there would be some one out there who would try to make their point…) Now, my pastor, who believes that gay sex is not right, just like hetro sex is a sin apart from marriage, like marriage between a brother and a sister is a sin, that adultry is a sin, having more than one spouse is a sin…etc, would be forced to go against his religeous beliefs and have to marry the couple because he could go to jail if he didn’t or he’s have to give up his church…that now denys me and my pastor our religeous freedom. I mean…I can’t go into a synagog or a mosque and get married, they can turn me away but the laws you are asking for would change all of that for gays. Secondly, wouldn’t that lead to changing the wording in the Bible or the Torah? Would we now have to burn the bible because it speaks against homosexuality? Would our pastors, Imans, Rabbis and teachers of religeous doctrine have to strike out certian teachings because gay marriage is now legal and now we can’t teach or even speak of it because it’s considered ‘Hate talk” and that it’s wrong according to our culture. That is what this is all about. I believe that it is wrong. I don’t hate you. My good friend left her husband and had an affair with another man…that was wrong…but I still love her although I don’t condone what she has done. You must think I am just such a bad person for believing what I believe. The Bible does’t tell us that being black is wrong or having a disability is wrong but it does teach that homosexuality is wrong. The Bible also teaches us to love your neighbor and so anyone who speaks out and calls anyone a hateful name is a sinner. I respect my gay friends, I love my gay brother but I don’t agree with the choice they have made, and until I see otherwise, I believe it is a choice. There has been no scientific proof otherwise but let’s not go down that rabbit hole for the moment. What we believe is a fundamental belief of not just Christians but many other religions! This gets so sticky and I am sorry that it is this way. It has been for thousands of years. Thank God that killing and stoning adulterers and gays is no longer legal…that was not God’s judgement but man’s judgement and we cannot tolerate violence. The new covenant of the new testament of Christ teaches us to love. The Koran teaches a very contrary belief and it adheres to the old age “stone or kill them” law. That is wrong but it is their belief….(but it had better not happen here in the U.S!!)

    I though that gays had the same rights as hetro couples through a civil union. Maybe you are going about it the wrong way. Please don’t call me a bigot. This is how I was brought up. I am a sinner. I miss the mark every day and I don’t think of anyone as second class citizens. I do believe that you truly have love for eachother. I also know men and women who have stopped living their gay lifestyle and now live straight lives. I don’t know anyone who was black and now is white…not even Michael Jackson. All U.S. citizens have the same civil rights. To change the definition of marriage is to change the Bible and that is what our country was founded on. I guess this must be a religeous war, then. What’s my point??? Do you really think that this is the way nature made you? Did God really create you to have sex with some one of the same gender and not procreate? Is it a lifestyle, or a choice? I know what some would say …get rid of religeon…that’s the problem in the first place..
    Sorry, that’s not going to happen. Until you can write a proposal that protects religeous freedom, prevents kids in school from being forced to learn about gay sex and all at the same time protects gays from being persecuted under their civil rights as Americans that no on….no matter their sex, religion or color should be persecuted….until you write this new prop, you will have opposition.
    I hope that we can all come to some sort of mandate that will make you happy without taking away what little religeous freedom I have left…
    May God Bless you and guide you

  • JJJJ

    Tim : What parallels? You mean, years after our own Civil Rights movement we’ll be murdering each other at four times the rate we did before like African Americans do? Give me a break. That messed up community has no merit to tell me how I should live my life. I totally respect and like a lot of individual African-Americans, but don’t try to draw parallels between us. And as far as the rainbow flag representing diversity- lol! Ever read the death wishes of other gays for anybody who dares to be a gay Republican? Anyway, maybe it’s not the Majority who are our worst enemies, maybe it’s other minorities.

  • fredo777

    Church, I have never, + would never, impersonate you. Nor would I post the “n” word unless I was repeating someone else’s usage of it, + even then it would likely be censored.

    You would, however, make racially-motivated comments, not the least of which is calling me “Moesha777” or “Mo777”, for short.

    Applaud yourself, though, for stopping just short of using the n word.

  • ChristopherM

    Awwww, thanks Ryan!

  • ChristopherM

    Laurie, you have been so misled about what this is about and how it affects religious rights that I just don’t even know where to start with you.

  • Laurie

    well then, please educate me because this is happening in Mass……..I am open to listen and understand!

  • ChristopherM

    Where do you live, Laurie? Do you live in Mass? Because if you do, I’d like for you to point to a single church that has been forced to perform marriages for anyone it didn’t want to marry. It doesn’t happen. It would be a violation of the U.S. Constitution. I just don’t get how you think it would violate your religious freedom to not have your religious values thrust upon me and my family. We pay taxes. We are law-abiding citizens. And we should have the same rights as you whether you believe we chose our lives or not.

  • ChristopherM

    Fredo, notice that yet again in his response to you, Churchlady has ignored the fact that he referred to me as a “charcoal lover.”

  • krystalv

    To No. 20 Laurie

    I do think that maybe marriage is the wrong terminology. “Marriage” is a religious thing, while the word “unions” might be more appropriate. (I hope that made sense.)

    But it would depend. Here in Canada same-sex marriage is legal right across the country but religious institutions have the right to not perform a marriage because it might infringe on their religious freedoms and beliefs. However, because marriage is a legal thing, you wouldn’t be denied if you walked into your City Hall, forked over the right amount of money and got a marriage license. A legal marriage or does not start in the church. You could get married in your church but does that mean you are legally married? No.

    No one said that you couldn’t have your own beliefs. I truly respect what you believe, and what values you want to instill in your own family. But don’t hide behind religious freedom when not everyone in America is one religion. People need to start seeing it from that side as well.

    My biggest thing about all of this, is that people need to start looking in on their own lives. I could really care less what you believe is right and what you want to practice within your own life. But don’t make your choices and your beliefs everyone’s.

    I may not agree with everything your believe and say, but I do have respect for your beliefs and opinions as a human being. Just as I respect the way you want to live your life. I’m not trying to change that. So why are you? (By “you” I don’t mean you specifically.)

  • Robert

    Laurie, even if sexuality is a flippant choice you make upon waking, the government of the people should never elevate and codify the religious beliefs of a subset of that people.

    Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. Secular government, secular rights.

    Have you forgetten that the founding fathers came here to escape religious persecution? to escape governmental religion? Did you know that many places in the new world banned even private celebrations for Christmas, imposing fines on anyone who did celebrate it?

    Equal rights don’t demand that the Bible be re-written; they demand that the Bible stay in the home. The fact that you expect the government to uphold the teachings of the Bible demonstrates that this fight isn’t about protecting the children or serving a righteous principle. It’s about power, it’s about authority, it’s about lording yourself and your beliefs over everyone else.

  • ChristopherM

    I live in a state called denial.

  • Laurie

    I will find the url but I have to get going to work now and will write back. How do you know that it won’t impose on my religeous freedoms? can you guarantee it? just gotta know

  • krystalv

    Well said Robert. Well said.

  • go to girl

    Please explain why gays feel that Obama is better for gay rights? He has the same stance as McCain on marriage. So by supporting Obama you also voted alongside all the people who voted for Prop 8. Black churches were targeted and told when they vote for Obama also vote for Prop 8. This shouldn’t come as a surrise. I get more upset knowing that a black man who has most likely faced discrimination in his life chose to discrimnate against another minority group. I expect to be discriminated by the the white man, but the black man? sad.

  • ChristopherM

    How cute! Now Churchy is posting as me! And his personalities continue to multiply.

  • ChristopherM

    Go to Girl, I feel that way because while they state the same stance on marriage, Obama is against federal and state amendments banning it. McCain promoted Prop 8 and the Arizona amendment. Additionally, McCain is for continuing the ban on gays in the military, against the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, against hate crime legislation, and has publicly stated that he doesn’t think gay people are fit to adopt. Obama is the opposite on all of those issues. That is not to say we should not continue calling Obama on the marriage issue, but he is MILES better than not just McCain but any other viable presidential candidate we’ve ever had.

  • Laurie

    thanks for your comments and for not bashing me….your answers are straight forward and your points well made. I guess I need to look into this more. My dear friends are hurting right now and I want to support them

  • Robert

    Ah, Laurie…that’s a strawman. You’re arguing something that isn’t arguable.

    Churches are tax-exempt because they forfeit any connection to the government. It’s an agreement: the government won’t interfere with the church as long as the church doesn’t interfere with the government. [Well, except the Mormons and Catholics, apparently. They can involve themselves as much as they’d like and pour boatloads of money into stripping away rights without losing that status.]

    In any case, there is no danger of the government demanding that churches issue marriage licenses. Even if someone sued a church on the basis of discrimination, it would be thrown out of court precisely because of the separation of church and state as written in the First Amendment. The very separation that you seemingly want to dissolve would endanger your church just as much as it endangers the government.]

  • frank kameny


    You’re yet another who is obviously ignorant of just how 501(c)(3) works. That the Mormon Church and the Knights Of Columbus endorsed and financially supported Prop 8 does not imperil their tax-exempt status.

    And I’ll ask you, what about the churches that actively opposed Prop 8…are you in favor of attempting to remove their tax-exempt status? Or just the churches that were against you?

  • michael

    Maybe this has been tried, but if America guarantees religious freedom, then have gay people ever thought of starting their own religion that sanctions marriage. Then we could sue that our religious rights were being discriminated against. I mean we could worship the cock God, or the pussy God, I don’t care. But its an angle that we could try.

  • PJ

    Gay Jim Crow laws

  • fredo777

    @ Church-y:

    Let’s not discuss you calling me Moesha, when that’s not my name, + you only used it because it’s a black character + I’m black? Uh, sorry. Not gonna happen, dude.

  • Robert

    Frank, I’m in favor of removing the tax exempt status of any church, synagogue, mosque (etc) that donates money to political campaigns — whether those campaigns be for a candidate or an issue.

  • Robert

    Additionally, I’m aware that it is legal for a church to donate to something like Prop 8. I just consider it unethical and in violation of the spirit of the separation of church and state. Not to mention the protection of minorities as enshrined in the style of government we have.

  • gkruz

    As an atheist and a militant secularist, I advocate revoking the tax exempt privilege (and that’s what it is, a privilege, not a right; that argument sound familiar?) of all churches and religions, the “good” liberal ones as well as the “bad” anti-gay ones. All of us have protested the religious right’s fusion with the Republican party, but who among the LGBT, liberal or separation of church and state crowd ever said one word when Democrats like Kennedy, the Clintons, Gore, Kerry and, of course, Obama, made stump speeches from the altars of black churches? No one. And look what happened.

  • emb

    @Tim: I’m frankly getting a bit tired of being told I’m supposed to reach out and make nice, Tim. It wasn’t so long ago that African Americans were legally prohibited from marrying white people, among other interesting, popularly-supported laws mandating discrimination. Latinos are subject to legally-biased immigration laws. That makes it doubly odd that they’d rally ’round discrimination against someone else. I supported Obama regardless of his skin color, but also in part because of what his victory would symbolize about our culture. I now feel a bit…used and gullible.

    Oh wait, I forgot: Bigger than race in this weirdness is the other “R”: Religion. Dig a bit below the skin color and you’ll find a religious basis for this hateful voting behavior. It’s the church-brainwashed blacks, hispanics, and whites who voted against us. THERE’S the real culprit.

  • michael

    If marriage is only a religious institution then it should be unconstitutional for the government to have anything whatsoever to do with it and ought to banish from their responsibility. This is why all this religious stuff is B.S. they want the gov. to handle marriage, record it, decide divorces etc. but they also want it to be ultimately controlled by religion. There is something very flawed by a system that says there is separation of church in state yet get involved in each others affairs. Marriage, as a religious institution
    sanctioned by government, given tax breaks by government and protection by government is clearly unconstitutional.

  • Wolf

    @frank kameny:

    Actually Frank

    According to IRS Publication 1828 Page 5,

    Substantial Lobbying Activity
    In general, no organization, including a church, may qualify for IRC section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying). An IRC section 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status.

  • John


    Wow. Great reponse!

  • John

    @go to girl:
    Because he said he opposed on TV prop 8.

    But just for one minute, we know politics is a game and you’re right, we can’t believe ALL we hear…so lets look way, way, way at McCains and Obama’s past…what do you see? Before they wanted to be presidents?

    Yep, Obama voted for gays to atually GET married.

    Now has it occured to you that if he’d done this publicly on the circuit that it might have effected him being president? Are you thinking in the longterm AT ALL?

    Have you heard of the term ‘working the system to gain power and then changing it’, or all you all about getting angry in the short term?

    It flabbergasts and upsets me that time and time again gays will say this stuff about Obama, when he actually went into a black church and got booed for saying we SHOULDN’T be homophobic!!!

    Tell me one goddam US pres who has done this?? Ever??

    I guess you do prove Huffpost guys rhetoric that there is this long history of ‘hate’ between gays and blacks because despite what everything Obama has done…you still come out with this…

    Oh, and no, I don’t think he is a saint AT ALL but I think he is the brightest and fairest one going for this election…

  • gkruz

    Why just the LDS? Why not the Catholics, the fundies and the mega-churches and the AME as well? Why not all of them?

  • Dave

    “How do you know that it won’t impose on my religeous freedoms? can you guarantee it?”

    Laurie, look at it this way. Women have equal rights in America. Yet the government doesn’t force the Catholic Church to hire female priests. It’s the same principle.

    Regardless of how you feel on female priests or marriage, religious freedoms are not and will not be usurped.

    In fact, the law is discriminating against those Christian faiths who honour same-sex marriage. The rights of those people to practise their faith is being infringed upon.

  • tallskin

    Can you believe this Laurie moron?? The sky pixie worshipper comes on here and has the gall to say that he won’t accept that being gay is not a choice cos there is no scientific evidence.

    NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE?? this coming from someone who believes in an invisible friend in the sky, a creator sky pixie.

    Laurie, where is the scientific evidence for the existence of your sky pixie?

    The barefaced cheek of the religiously afflicted never ceases to amaze me – they demand respect from atheists for their mental illness yet refuse to give it to anyone who doesn’t fit in with their vile moral codes.


  • chuck

    It’s about being required to fight with one hand tied behind your back, Tallskin, and showing proper respect for their bigotry, hatred and discrimination, while they bash the shit out of us…and all in the name of their God and their f–king stupid buy-bull that they “claim” to be the word of God.

    Mass-f–king insanity.

    And…we are even more insane for trying to have meaningful discourse with the likes of such blooming idiots.

    Religion is a horrible illness for which there is, unfortunately, no known cure.

  • chuck

    Even more frightening, is the fact that religion is highly contagious and easily spread without the need for physical contact, a virus or a germ to infect new victims. It is also highly unlikely that a vaccine will ever be developed that is effective in limiting or reducing the rapid spread of this very infectious disease.

  • glennmcgahee

    Dear Laurie in comments above. You mention that you had a friendthat had a relationship outside of her marriage but you forgave her because the bible does not condemn that like it does homosexuality. The bible, in the same passage that says man shall not lie down with another man also says that your friend should be stoned to death for her indiscretion. You need to really read that bible and not just stories about it from a preacher.

  • glennmcgahee

    To ChristopherM above also, McCain voted against the anti-gay marriage amendment when it was before Congress. OBAMA DID NOT VOTE AT ALL!

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